- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 15:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
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- Chalwa ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I don't believe this place exists. There are no GPS coordinates. It is not listed in the 2014 Moroccan census (XLS file). There is one source, a UN map. On Google Maps, neither the settlement nor the road it is on on that map exist. Bing Maps has nothing. OpenStreetMap has nothing. There are no sources other than the one map that attest to the existence of the city. Other small towns in Western Sahara, such as Jdiriya (population 248), show up on all these sources. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 06:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 06:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment So, if you take the road south East from Boujdour here you end up at a little settlement here that looks to be about where Chalwa should be. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's likely there. I found a brief sentence somewhere else on Wikipedia that said there was a conflict over it and that looks like the type of place there would be a conflict over. Given that it's next to a small water body in the middle of know where. I could see it being strategically important to some Saharan tribe. If that's not it though, I'm almost certain it's somewhere in that area. Given the lines from Boujdour and Galtat Zemmour Zabyra to where it should be and where they would intersect. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 07:17, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, if you take the barely visible road from that place directly south east you end up
here. Which looks way more promising. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's about where Aridal is on the UN map.
This is very close to the UN map location, though.
Grutness...
wha?
13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- It would make some sense that this (and Aridal) is a (possibly-abandoned) military base. I'd like a bit clearer evidence before withdrawing the AFD though. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 18:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's about where Aridal is on the UN map.
This is very close to the UN map location, though.
Grutness...
wha?
13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, if you take the barely visible road from that place directly south east you end up
here. Which looks way more promising. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:31, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment it's definitely been on UN maps for over 20 years ( 1995 to 2015 at the minimum) and is also on maps used by tertiary institutes where Western Sahara is a topic. Textbooks also list it. It is referred to in documents by the Robert College International Model United Nations. Scientific papers have been written about its geology (see citation list). Unfortunately, there is very little online about Western Sahara's geography. Grutness... wha? 13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - it it's WP:V, then an inhabited place is almost always kept. Bearian ( talk) 20:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- delete Absolutely nothing has improved about this since the last discussion, and I note that Aridal was deleted even though it appears on the same map: the inconsistencies were just irreconcilable. The UN map has proven to be just not good enough as a source, especially given the trouble we are having even locating it. Dots on maps do not establish notability. Mangoe ( talk) 02:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- delete After looking into it I don't think there's any way to tell which dot on the map it actually is. As what's available is low quality. There's really no way to know if it's an inhabited place or not if we can't even find anything about it. So, I'm not sure what guideline it would be kept based on. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 02:38, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, included on multiple maps in different published years by the United Nations:
- Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (February 2009),
Map No. 3691 Rev. 58 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 10 February 2018, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help) - Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (13 April 2009),
Map No. 3691 Rev. 59 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 15 October 2020, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help) - Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (October 2012),
Map No. 3175 Rev. 4 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 13 October 2020, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help)
- Thank you, Right cite ( talk) 03:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Let's take a step back here. What is this place? A settled location would be included in the census and on general-use maps. Chalwa isn't. What we have is a dot on successive editions of a United Nations map. No one seems to know what that dot means, or even where it is. How we can verify a subject when we have no sources describing it? Mackensen (talk) 04:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 15:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Chalwa ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I don't believe this place exists. There are no GPS coordinates. It is not listed in the 2014 Moroccan census (XLS file). There is one source, a UN map. On Google Maps, neither the settlement nor the road it is on on that map exist. Bing Maps has nothing. OpenStreetMap has nothing. There are no sources other than the one map that attest to the existence of the city. Other small towns in Western Sahara, such as Jdiriya (population 248), show up on all these sources. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 06:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 06:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment So, if you take the road south East from Boujdour here you end up at a little settlement here that looks to be about where Chalwa should be. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's likely there. I found a brief sentence somewhere else on Wikipedia that said there was a conflict over it and that looks like the type of place there would be a conflict over. Given that it's next to a small water body in the middle of know where. I could see it being strategically important to some Saharan tribe. If that's not it though, I'm almost certain it's somewhere in that area. Given the lines from Boujdour and Galtat Zemmour Zabyra to where it should be and where they would intersect. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 07:17, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, if you take the barely visible road from that place directly south east you end up
here. Which looks way more promising. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's about where Aridal is on the UN map.
This is very close to the UN map location, though.
Grutness...
wha?
13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- It would make some sense that this (and Aridal) is a (possibly-abandoned) military base. I'd like a bit clearer evidence before withdrawing the AFD though. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 18:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's about where Aridal is on the UN map.
This is very close to the UN map location, though.
Grutness...
wha?
13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, if you take the barely visible road from that place directly south east you end up
here. Which looks way more promising. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:31, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment it's definitely been on UN maps for over 20 years ( 1995 to 2015 at the minimum) and is also on maps used by tertiary institutes where Western Sahara is a topic. Textbooks also list it. It is referred to in documents by the Robert College International Model United Nations. Scientific papers have been written about its geology (see citation list). Unfortunately, there is very little online about Western Sahara's geography. Grutness... wha? 13:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - it it's WP:V, then an inhabited place is almost always kept. Bearian ( talk) 20:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- delete Absolutely nothing has improved about this since the last discussion, and I note that Aridal was deleted even though it appears on the same map: the inconsistencies were just irreconcilable. The UN map has proven to be just not good enough as a source, especially given the trouble we are having even locating it. Dots on maps do not establish notability. Mangoe ( talk) 02:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- delete After looking into it I don't think there's any way to tell which dot on the map it actually is. As what's available is low quality. There's really no way to know if it's an inhabited place or not if we can't even find anything about it. So, I'm not sure what guideline it would be kept based on. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 02:38, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, included on multiple maps in different published years by the United Nations:
- Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (February 2009),
Map No. 3691 Rev. 58 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 10 February 2018, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help) - Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (13 April 2009),
Map No. 3691 Rev. 59 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 15 October 2020, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help) - Department of Field Support, Cartographic Section (October 2012),
Map No. 3175 Rev. 4 United Nations (PDF), archived from
the original (PDF) on 13 October 2020, retrieved 15 October 2020
{{ citation}}: Unknown parameter|agency=ignored ( help)
- Thank you, Right cite ( talk) 03:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Let's take a step back here. What is this place? A settled location would be included in the census and on general-use maps. Chalwa isn't. What we have is a dot on successive editions of a United Nations map. No one seems to know what that dot means, or even where it is. How we can verify a subject when we have no sources describing it? Mackensen (talk) 04:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.