The result was delete. The strongest argument - that the substantive content of this article is duplicated at Effects of the Turkish-PKK conflict - has not been disproven. 10:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I am renominating this list for deletion because in my view the list is a POV fork that is inherently incapable of ever achieving a NPOV. (The list is essentially a collection of newspaper reports about alleged PKK attacks on civilians, despite the title, and as a list is not capable of ever being anything more than that.) There are a number of reasons for this, but most specifically this is because with 37,000+ deaths attributed to the Turkish-PKK conflict to date any list of individual incidents causing casualties will inevitably be either highly selective, or alternatively, far too huge for an encyclopaedic list. There is therefore no chance whatsoever that this list will ever be able to avoid claims of an over-emphasis on one side or the other.
At the previous deletion debate comparisons were made between lists on the IRA and ETA, however such comparisons are flawed because the Turkish-PKK conflict is occurring on a significantly larger scale with significantly higher casualty figures, and involving regular, sometimes indiscriminate military-scale activity by both sides. The IRA and ETA conflicts are also significantly better documented by independent commentators.
A fundamental lack of reliable sources on which to base content means that it is also practically impossible for this list to achieve a reasonably encyclopaedic standard of quality at any point in the foreseeable future. For a start, the vast bulk of likely source material is the Turkish language press. The Turkish press, however, cannot be considered reliable when it comes to reporting on the conflict because of a clear conflict of clear conflict of interest, not to mention significant legal restrictions on what they can and can’t report. Consequently, and inevitably, Kurdish casualties of the conflict will be under-reported and Turkish casualties over-reported. (See further discussion on the list's talk page.) Almost all the sources in the list simply report at face value Turkish military announcements, while independent verification of these claims is virtually impossible. In addition, strict restrictions on Kurdish language reporting almost guarantee that we’ll only ever get one side of the conflict. Further discussion of these issues can be found on the list's talk page. Note also, that the list has been tagged for POV since March (in addition to other tags removed and reinstated over the past two years) and it hasn’t been touched except by an IP and the SpellingBot.
The previous deletion debate for this list revolved primarily around POV concerns, and at the conclusion at the time was to rename the list, from "Civilian casualties caused by PKK" to "Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict". In the two years since that nomination the list remains almost entirely the POV fork it was at the time of its original afd nomination.
I considered the list as a merger candidate, but all substantive information from this list is already covered more than adequately in the main article Turkish-PKK conflict, not to mention a significantly better account of the same information in Effects of the Turkish-PKK conflict.
nb. This argument should not be taken to mean that all information on the conflict is problematic, only the specific category of material that this particular list is intended to compile. The only possible way to document casualties without POV issues is to report raw numbers from independent third parties, such as Amnesty International, in article format rather than the arbitrary specifics of this list. Debate ( talk) 08:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment to closing admin. Maybe this can be relisted for further comment? I suspect that the more complex argument here doesn't invite the standard "delete NN/keep N" voting-style response common to the more obvious afds, so contributions have been a been a bit light-on despite Deniz and my lengthy contributions. It would be good, however, to get some feedback on the actual grounds of the nomination. :) Debate ( talk) 13:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. The strongest argument - that the substantive content of this article is duplicated at Effects of the Turkish-PKK conflict - has not been disproven. 10:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I am renominating this list for deletion because in my view the list is a POV fork that is inherently incapable of ever achieving a NPOV. (The list is essentially a collection of newspaper reports about alleged PKK attacks on civilians, despite the title, and as a list is not capable of ever being anything more than that.) There are a number of reasons for this, but most specifically this is because with 37,000+ deaths attributed to the Turkish-PKK conflict to date any list of individual incidents causing casualties will inevitably be either highly selective, or alternatively, far too huge for an encyclopaedic list. There is therefore no chance whatsoever that this list will ever be able to avoid claims of an over-emphasis on one side or the other.
At the previous deletion debate comparisons were made between lists on the IRA and ETA, however such comparisons are flawed because the Turkish-PKK conflict is occurring on a significantly larger scale with significantly higher casualty figures, and involving regular, sometimes indiscriminate military-scale activity by both sides. The IRA and ETA conflicts are also significantly better documented by independent commentators.
A fundamental lack of reliable sources on which to base content means that it is also practically impossible for this list to achieve a reasonably encyclopaedic standard of quality at any point in the foreseeable future. For a start, the vast bulk of likely source material is the Turkish language press. The Turkish press, however, cannot be considered reliable when it comes to reporting on the conflict because of a clear conflict of clear conflict of interest, not to mention significant legal restrictions on what they can and can’t report. Consequently, and inevitably, Kurdish casualties of the conflict will be under-reported and Turkish casualties over-reported. (See further discussion on the list's talk page.) Almost all the sources in the list simply report at face value Turkish military announcements, while independent verification of these claims is virtually impossible. In addition, strict restrictions on Kurdish language reporting almost guarantee that we’ll only ever get one side of the conflict. Further discussion of these issues can be found on the list's talk page. Note also, that the list has been tagged for POV since March (in addition to other tags removed and reinstated over the past two years) and it hasn’t been touched except by an IP and the SpellingBot.
The previous deletion debate for this list revolved primarily around POV concerns, and at the conclusion at the time was to rename the list, from "Civilian casualties caused by PKK" to "Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict". In the two years since that nomination the list remains almost entirely the POV fork it was at the time of its original afd nomination.
I considered the list as a merger candidate, but all substantive information from this list is already covered more than adequately in the main article Turkish-PKK conflict, not to mention a significantly better account of the same information in Effects of the Turkish-PKK conflict.
nb. This argument should not be taken to mean that all information on the conflict is problematic, only the specific category of material that this particular list is intended to compile. The only possible way to document casualties without POV issues is to report raw numbers from independent third parties, such as Amnesty International, in article format rather than the arbitrary specifics of this list. Debate ( talk) 08:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment to closing admin. Maybe this can be relisted for further comment? I suspect that the more complex argument here doesn't invite the standard "delete NN/keep N" voting-style response common to the more obvious afds, so contributions have been a been a bit light-on despite Deniz and my lengthy contributions. It would be good, however, to get some feedback on the actual grounds of the nomination. :) Debate ( talk) 13:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC) reply