- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Owen× ☎ 07:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Caribbean South America
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- Caribbean South America ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:UNSOURCED since creation in 2004. Not mentioned in any Google Books source, so likely fails WP:GNG. Formally proposing deletion after rejected WP:PROD. NLeeuw ( talk) 18:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Caribbean and South America. NLeeuw ( talk) 18:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Nothing more than an unsourced defintion. The prod removal is utterly absurd, if you think this is "not an uncotroversial deletion", you need to explain what makes it controversial. Reywas92 Talk 20:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Just needs to be sourced. I found hits in Google Books, but not on the first page, and "Caribe sudamericano" brought up other hits as well. There are potentially usable sources on the Spanish and Portuguese language pages.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 22:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Which Books results are you seeing? Beyond the first page of the Caribbean—South America plate boundary, the hits are tables where they are adjacent labels. Looking at the iw links and searches in Spanish, it still just seems there's nothing much more to say beyond that Colombia and Venezula border the Caribbean and this may be a convenient way to group them. Merge that definition to
Outline_of_South_America#Regions_of_South_America or something.
Reywas92
Talk 04:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Various US Trade publications and some old guide books. SportingFlyer T· C 21:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Ministry of Tourism of Colombia calls that place “Caribe Colombiano” (I put a reference to the government page) so I think we just don’t know about it because we don’t live in Colombia, but seems to be a pretty notable geographical division for them.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't live in Colombia either, but I have visited twice (mainly Bogotá and Santa Marta), and it is important to realize that it has at least four regions that are completely different from one another: the high-altitude cities (Bogotá, Medellín, Cali), the Caribbean coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta), the Pacific Coast (Buenaventura --- which may look on the map as being close to Cali, but for altitude and other reasons they don't resemble one another at all), and the various jungles (close to Ecuador, and other regions). One could even add the two islands (Providencia and San Andrés) as a fifth region totally different from the other four. So it's not just the Ministry of Tourism that regards the Caribe Colombiano as a specific entity.
Athel cb (
talk) 17:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ Athel cb Caribe Colombiano is already covered at Caribbean region of Colombia. That does not justify the need for this article. Reywas92 Talk 20:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't live in Colombia either, but I have visited twice (mainly Bogotá and Santa Marta), and it is important to realize that it has at least four regions that are completely different from one another: the high-altitude cities (Bogotá, Medellín, Cali), the Caribbean coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta), the Pacific Coast (Buenaventura --- which may look on the map as being close to Cali, but for altitude and other reasons they don't resemble one another at all), and the various jungles (close to Ecuador, and other regions). One could even add the two islands (Providencia and San Andrés) as a fifth region totally different from the other four. So it's not just the Ministry of Tourism that regards the Caribe Colombiano as a specific entity.
Athel cb (
talk) 17:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Which Books results are you seeing? Beyond the first page of the Caribbean—South America plate boundary, the hits are tables where they are adjacent labels. Looking at the iw links and searches in Spanish, it still just seems there's nothing much more to say beyond that Colombia and Venezula border the Caribbean and this may be a convenient way to group them. Merge that definition to
Outline_of_South_America#Regions_of_South_America or something.
Reywas92
Talk 04:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 20:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I never saw on any geography books that there is a Caribbean part of South America. Culturally speaking, I know that
Guyana feels closer to the Caribbean than to South America, but I’m not sure this is worthy of an article.
Contributor892z (
talk) 21:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Guyana is generally considered part of the West Indies.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Generally considered by whom? Not by me, certainly, and I don't ever remember hearing anyone say that. Spanish-speaking South Americans are barely aware of the existence of Guyana and the two other Guianas, Surinam and Guyane and in my experience never mention them. (Brazilians are a bit different because they have territorial claims.) However, none of that alters the fact that the Guianas are in South America, not the West Indies.
Athel cb (
talk) 19:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Geographically they are certainly in South America. Contributor892z ( talk) 21:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Generally considered by whom? Not by me, certainly, and I don't ever remember hearing anyone say that. Spanish-speaking South Americans are barely aware of the existence of Guyana and the two other Guianas, Surinam and Guyane and in my experience never mention them. (Brazilians are a bit different because they have territorial claims.) However, none of that alters the fact that the Guianas are in South America, not the West Indies.
Athel cb (
talk) 19:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Guyana is generally considered part of the West Indies.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article is pretty short, but Colombians clearly consider their northern coast from at least
Cartagena and the
Rosario Islands in the west to
Riohacha and the
Guajira Peninsula in the east to be Caribbean. The food and culture in the coastal region is heavily based on the Caribbean.
Cbl62 (
talk) 22:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like you are right, so I put the references (including one from
Unesco that I got from the page
Caribe Sudamericano) and now I am in favour of Keep then.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just for clarity, I am in favour of Keep because it passes WP:NGEO: "named natural features, with verifiable information beyond simple statistics are presumed to be notable." Contributor892z ( talk) 10:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like you are right, so I put the references (including one from
Unesco that I got from the page
Caribe Sudamericano) and now I am in favour of Keep then.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article is pretty short, but Colombians clearly consider their northern coast from at least
Cartagena and the
Rosario Islands in the west to
Riohacha and the
Guajira Peninsula in the east to be Caribbean. The food and culture in the coastal region is heavily based on the Caribbean.
Cbl62 (
talk) 22:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. The topic is already dealt with by country in the articles for the
Caribbean region of Colombia and
Venezuelan Caribbean. Not sure what added value we get by having an additional stub article on the combined Caribbean region of the two countries. That said, Spanish Wikipedians who are more knowledgeable on the topic than I deem it worthy of a stand-alone article. See "Caribe sudamericano" on Spanish Wikipedia. I suppose it may also serve a useful navigational purpose if nothing else.
Cbl62 (
talk) 12:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- If so, we might as well make it a DP. NLeeuw ( talk) 16:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as you said, if the Spanish Wikipedia thought this was notable, it probably is…
Contributor892z (
talk) 05:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Literally nothing in the Spanish Wikipedia article is about the region as a whole, it just lists the places in Colombia and Venezuela that are adjacent to the Caribbean, no analysis or useful sources. Enwiki does not have the same notability or stand-alone article standards and procedures as other wikis. I agree a dab page may be appropriate, though I question the need for the
Venezuelan Caribbean page if it's just a list of states/dependencies that border the Caribbean with zero analysis of this being a defined or described region.
Reywas92
Talk 20:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Venezuelan Caribbean page does look a little extra, it may be a good idea to just redirect it to the Caribbean South America page if this AfD results in keep. Contributor892z ( talk) 03:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Literally nothing in the Spanish Wikipedia article is about the region as a whole, it just lists the places in Colombia and Venezuela that are adjacent to the Caribbean, no analysis or useful sources. Enwiki does not have the same notability or stand-alone article standards and procedures as other wikis. I agree a dab page may be appropriate, though I question the need for the
Venezuelan Caribbean page if it's just a list of states/dependencies that border the Caribbean with zero analysis of this being a defined or described region.
Reywas92
Talk 20:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Really annoying how this sockpuppeteer keeps creating new socks to try and single-handedly close this AfD. The rollbacks and blocks are appreciated.
NLeeuw (
talk) 21:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I've requested page protection. I don't know who keeps doing this, but regardless of the outcome, this discussion will have its orderly closure according to procedure, and will not be disrupted by WP:SPA WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. NLeeuw ( talk) 23:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Study this one carefully.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 08:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Owen× ☎ 07:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Caribbean South America
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Caribbean South America ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:UNSOURCED since creation in 2004. Not mentioned in any Google Books source, so likely fails WP:GNG. Formally proposing deletion after rejected WP:PROD. NLeeuw ( talk) 18:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Caribbean and South America. NLeeuw ( talk) 18:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Nothing more than an unsourced defintion. The prod removal is utterly absurd, if you think this is "not an uncotroversial deletion", you need to explain what makes it controversial. Reywas92 Talk 20:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Just needs to be sourced. I found hits in Google Books, but not on the first page, and "Caribe sudamericano" brought up other hits as well. There are potentially usable sources on the Spanish and Portuguese language pages.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 22:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Which Books results are you seeing? Beyond the first page of the Caribbean—South America plate boundary, the hits are tables where they are adjacent labels. Looking at the iw links and searches in Spanish, it still just seems there's nothing much more to say beyond that Colombia and Venezula border the Caribbean and this may be a convenient way to group them. Merge that definition to
Outline_of_South_America#Regions_of_South_America or something.
Reywas92
Talk 04:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Various US Trade publications and some old guide books. SportingFlyer T· C 21:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Ministry of Tourism of Colombia calls that place “Caribe Colombiano” (I put a reference to the government page) so I think we just don’t know about it because we don’t live in Colombia, but seems to be a pretty notable geographical division for them.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't live in Colombia either, but I have visited twice (mainly Bogotá and Santa Marta), and it is important to realize that it has at least four regions that are completely different from one another: the high-altitude cities (Bogotá, Medellín, Cali), the Caribbean coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta), the Pacific Coast (Buenaventura --- which may look on the map as being close to Cali, but for altitude and other reasons they don't resemble one another at all), and the various jungles (close to Ecuador, and other regions). One could even add the two islands (Providencia and San Andrés) as a fifth region totally different from the other four. So it's not just the Ministry of Tourism that regards the Caribe Colombiano as a specific entity.
Athel cb (
talk) 17:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ Athel cb Caribe Colombiano is already covered at Caribbean region of Colombia. That does not justify the need for this article. Reywas92 Talk 20:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't live in Colombia either, but I have visited twice (mainly Bogotá and Santa Marta), and it is important to realize that it has at least four regions that are completely different from one another: the high-altitude cities (Bogotá, Medellín, Cali), the Caribbean coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta), the Pacific Coast (Buenaventura --- which may look on the map as being close to Cali, but for altitude and other reasons they don't resemble one another at all), and the various jungles (close to Ecuador, and other regions). One could even add the two islands (Providencia and San Andrés) as a fifth region totally different from the other four. So it's not just the Ministry of Tourism that regards the Caribe Colombiano as a specific entity.
Athel cb (
talk) 17:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Which Books results are you seeing? Beyond the first page of the Caribbean—South America plate boundary, the hits are tables where they are adjacent labels. Looking at the iw links and searches in Spanish, it still just seems there's nothing much more to say beyond that Colombia and Venezula border the Caribbean and this may be a convenient way to group them. Merge that definition to
Outline_of_South_America#Regions_of_South_America or something.
Reywas92
Talk 04:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 20:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I never saw on any geography books that there is a Caribbean part of South America. Culturally speaking, I know that
Guyana feels closer to the Caribbean than to South America, but I’m not sure this is worthy of an article.
Contributor892z (
talk) 21:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Guyana is generally considered part of the West Indies.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Generally considered by whom? Not by me, certainly, and I don't ever remember hearing anyone say that. Spanish-speaking South Americans are barely aware of the existence of Guyana and the two other Guianas, Surinam and Guyane and in my experience never mention them. (Brazilians are a bit different because they have territorial claims.) However, none of that alters the fact that the Guianas are in South America, not the West Indies.
Athel cb (
talk) 19:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Geographically they are certainly in South America. Contributor892z ( talk) 21:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Generally considered by whom? Not by me, certainly, and I don't ever remember hearing anyone say that. Spanish-speaking South Americans are barely aware of the existence of Guyana and the two other Guianas, Surinam and Guyane and in my experience never mention them. (Brazilians are a bit different because they have territorial claims.) However, none of that alters the fact that the Guianas are in South America, not the West Indies.
Athel cb (
talk) 19:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Guyana is generally considered part of the West Indies.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article is pretty short, but Colombians clearly consider their northern coast from at least
Cartagena and the
Rosario Islands in the west to
Riohacha and the
Guajira Peninsula in the east to be Caribbean. The food and culture in the coastal region is heavily based on the Caribbean.
Cbl62 (
talk) 22:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like you are right, so I put the references (including one from
Unesco that I got from the page
Caribe Sudamericano) and now I am in favour of Keep then.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just for clarity, I am in favour of Keep because it passes WP:NGEO: "named natural features, with verifiable information beyond simple statistics are presumed to be notable." Contributor892z ( talk) 10:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like you are right, so I put the references (including one from
Unesco that I got from the page
Caribe Sudamericano) and now I am in favour of Keep then.
Contributor892z (
talk) 23:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article is pretty short, but Colombians clearly consider their northern coast from at least
Cartagena and the
Rosario Islands in the west to
Riohacha and the
Guajira Peninsula in the east to be Caribbean. The food and culture in the coastal region is heavily based on the Caribbean.
Cbl62 (
talk) 22:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. The topic is already dealt with by country in the articles for the
Caribbean region of Colombia and
Venezuelan Caribbean. Not sure what added value we get by having an additional stub article on the combined Caribbean region of the two countries. That said, Spanish Wikipedians who are more knowledgeable on the topic than I deem it worthy of a stand-alone article. See "Caribe sudamericano" on Spanish Wikipedia. I suppose it may also serve a useful navigational purpose if nothing else.
Cbl62 (
talk) 12:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- If so, we might as well make it a DP. NLeeuw ( talk) 16:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as you said, if the Spanish Wikipedia thought this was notable, it probably is…
Contributor892z (
talk) 05:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Literally nothing in the Spanish Wikipedia article is about the region as a whole, it just lists the places in Colombia and Venezuela that are adjacent to the Caribbean, no analysis or useful sources. Enwiki does not have the same notability or stand-alone article standards and procedures as other wikis. I agree a dab page may be appropriate, though I question the need for the
Venezuelan Caribbean page if it's just a list of states/dependencies that border the Caribbean with zero analysis of this being a defined or described region.
Reywas92
Talk 20:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Venezuelan Caribbean page does look a little extra, it may be a good idea to just redirect it to the Caribbean South America page if this AfD results in keep. Contributor892z ( talk) 03:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Literally nothing in the Spanish Wikipedia article is about the region as a whole, it just lists the places in Colombia and Venezuela that are adjacent to the Caribbean, no analysis or useful sources. Enwiki does not have the same notability or stand-alone article standards and procedures as other wikis. I agree a dab page may be appropriate, though I question the need for the
Venezuelan Caribbean page if it's just a list of states/dependencies that border the Caribbean with zero analysis of this being a defined or described region.
Reywas92
Talk 20:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Really annoying how this sockpuppeteer keeps creating new socks to try and single-handedly close this AfD. The rollbacks and blocks are appreciated.
NLeeuw (
talk) 21:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I've requested page protection. I don't know who keeps doing this, but regardless of the outcome, this discussion will have its orderly closure according to procedure, and will not be disrupted by WP:SPA WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. NLeeuw ( talk) 23:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Study this one carefully.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 08:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.