The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article has six sources, but four are about the position of the Catholic Church (and Popes) on cannabis and one is about Italy. That leaves us with
cannabis.info, which simply states that cannabis is illegal in Vatican City.
Altogether this is not the significant coverage we need for
WP:GNG. It's clear that some hard work has gone into the article, which covers Catholic positions on cannabis, but that's not the article subject. Speculation on arable land or the country's only pharmacy is not particularly encyclopedic. Most fundamentally for AfD, I cannot find any useful sources which demonstrate notability of the topic. — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
CAbstain - I won't vote either way as its my article, but I wou like for like to point out that there's articles for every country and its relationship to weed, see
legality of cannabis. This case, as it always seems to be with me though recently, is sui generis as the Vatican City State is irrevocably tied to the Holy See per se and its history as the Papal States, and we'll the article is rather self explanatory....I see no reason why this would be deleted and it would be a sore disappointment. I believe it provides a great deal of info and use, for example a cheeky tourist who thinks he can circumvent being arrested for smoking weed in the Italian Republic by visiting the Vatican. Or dorks like me.-~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Well indeed their histories are linked, but the matter of law and decree is just one small area. Perhaps there are some others in the series that I think should be deleted, but this was the most obvious outlier to me. What the notable members of this series, such as
Cannabis in the United Kingdom, have that this article does not is a history of substantial production and usage. Even some sub-stubs such as
Cannabis in Réunion document substantial recreational and ritual use of the drug, whereas in Vatican City there's no evidence provided that anyone has ever used the substance there. (Though as you say, I'm sure there's been the occasional tourist who endeavours to smoke weed on her trip to the state.) — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I forgot to mention this article was also
peer-reviewed by @
KJP1:, whose good advice I admittedly haven't implemented yet out of sloth, but he seemed to approve of the concept, if this is worth anything.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
L3X1,A merge would certainly be interesting, but the problem I thought about when I created the article is that the Vatican City State is just as sovereign as China is, and I think not treating it like other countries while acknowledging and connecting its special status violates NPOV.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:41, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Having articles "X in [country]" for only some values of [country] is not related to NPOV at all. It's related to GNG. For instance, contrast
Scientology in Belgium with (non-existent, non-notable)
Scientology in North Korea. The difference is that there is a substantial Scientology following in the former country, but not the latter. Trying to complete the series would be a fool's errand. — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
What Bilorv said. Normally I see NPOV used as argument against this type of thing, but I agree it isn't the issue. I think for the current title, the article could only have the lede/lead portion, but if we rename it, the entire article would be appropriate. Thanks, and have aHappy 2019! from
L3X1◊distænt write◊21:11, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Very interesting, although if I would need to merge it I don't know much about that and would probably butcher it. So far I would settle for that.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)21:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't see how weed being illegal in Vatican City isn't notable. The city-state is inherently and essentially tied to the Holy See itself, so it deserves coverage. It's more than notable, millions of people visit the Vatican every year, at least some of whom have tried or want to know about weed and its relationship with the Papacy.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)21:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
If your claim were consistent, a LOT of the Cannabis in X country articles would need to be deleted. Is marijuana policy in Vatican City really not as notable as the articles for San Marino, Sao Tome e Principe, the Cook Islands, New Caledonia (now we're just getting into dependent territories, not sovereign nations) and other tiny lands? What you're proposing ought to imply a large-reaching reform and decision about weed-related articles, not just knock off a few individual ones.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)22:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
As I said before, Perhaps there are some others in the series that I think should be deleted.
Other stuff exists is not a valid rationale here, but feel free to nominate any pages for deletion yourself after evaluating them according to
WP:BEFORE (as I did here, but don't have time to do on 200 pages). — Bilorv(c)(talk)22:48, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Wouldn't it be far better for the site if you're correct, to try to enact a general change in policy concerning weed-related articles instead of pruning individual ones like this? I don't think OSE applies here necessarily, because in this case A LOT of other stuff exists to the extent it becomes a rule. I don't know what makes Vatican City so special a target.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)23:00, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
No, there is no point making a policy for such a small set of articles (a couple of hundred). There's no need, because our current policies cover it already—specifically
WP:GNG, which you continue not to mention. I'll say again: I do not view Vatican City as a unique case, but as this is the third time I've made the point, I won't continue to harp on about it any further. — Bilorv(c)(talk)23:15, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your sharpshooting strategy here is very bizarre. I must say. Regardless, I can only settle on merging with most of the content remaining intact.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)23:49, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
For completeness: my opening comment at PR was "I initially thought this a rather odd topic for an article". While noting it formed part of a series, I also remarked that "the History section looks patchy. 1484 and then nothing until 1929". I think
Bilorv has a valid point. If there's really nothing worth noting about cannabis use in The Vatican, or any specific state, then it is questionable as to whether an article on the topic is warranted. Another suggestion might be a section within the article,
Cannabis in Italy.
KJP1 (
talk)
22:44, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment, i am confused by one of the article creator's initial statements - "there's articles for every country and its relationship to weed, see
legality of cannabis.", i count 22 countries/territories in that article that are redlinked so, no, WP does not have a canabis article for every country.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
03:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, does not meet
WP:GNG, agree with the nominator that the article does not have enough appropriate sources (ie. actually about this specific subject) to warrant a standalone (i have been unable to find any and none have been forthcoming), although the above suggestions about merging/adding some info to various articles are possible, i believe this to be inappropriate as it would place
too much emphasis on this issue in those articles.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
03:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article has six sources, but four are about the position of the Catholic Church (and Popes) on cannabis and one is about Italy. That leaves us with
cannabis.info, which simply states that cannabis is illegal in Vatican City.
Altogether this is not the significant coverage we need for
WP:GNG. It's clear that some hard work has gone into the article, which covers Catholic positions on cannabis, but that's not the article subject. Speculation on arable land or the country's only pharmacy is not particularly encyclopedic. Most fundamentally for AfD, I cannot find any useful sources which demonstrate notability of the topic. — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
CAbstain - I won't vote either way as its my article, but I wou like for like to point out that there's articles for every country and its relationship to weed, see
legality of cannabis. This case, as it always seems to be with me though recently, is sui generis as the Vatican City State is irrevocably tied to the Holy See per se and its history as the Papal States, and we'll the article is rather self explanatory....I see no reason why this would be deleted and it would be a sore disappointment. I believe it provides a great deal of info and use, for example a cheeky tourist who thinks he can circumvent being arrested for smoking weed in the Italian Republic by visiting the Vatican. Or dorks like me.-~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Well indeed their histories are linked, but the matter of law and decree is just one small area. Perhaps there are some others in the series that I think should be deleted, but this was the most obvious outlier to me. What the notable members of this series, such as
Cannabis in the United Kingdom, have that this article does not is a history of substantial production and usage. Even some sub-stubs such as
Cannabis in Réunion document substantial recreational and ritual use of the drug, whereas in Vatican City there's no evidence provided that anyone has ever used the substance there. (Though as you say, I'm sure there's been the occasional tourist who endeavours to smoke weed on her trip to the state.) — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I forgot to mention this article was also
peer-reviewed by @
KJP1:, whose good advice I admittedly haven't implemented yet out of sloth, but he seemed to approve of the concept, if this is worth anything.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
L3X1,A merge would certainly be interesting, but the problem I thought about when I created the article is that the Vatican City State is just as sovereign as China is, and I think not treating it like other countries while acknowledging and connecting its special status violates NPOV.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)20:41, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Having articles "X in [country]" for only some values of [country] is not related to NPOV at all. It's related to GNG. For instance, contrast
Scientology in Belgium with (non-existent, non-notable)
Scientology in North Korea. The difference is that there is a substantial Scientology following in the former country, but not the latter. Trying to complete the series would be a fool's errand. — Bilorv(c)(talk)20:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
What Bilorv said. Normally I see NPOV used as argument against this type of thing, but I agree it isn't the issue. I think for the current title, the article could only have the lede/lead portion, but if we rename it, the entire article would be appropriate. Thanks, and have aHappy 2019! from
L3X1◊distænt write◊21:11, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Very interesting, although if I would need to merge it I don't know much about that and would probably butcher it. So far I would settle for that.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)21:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't see how weed being illegal in Vatican City isn't notable. The city-state is inherently and essentially tied to the Holy See itself, so it deserves coverage. It's more than notable, millions of people visit the Vatican every year, at least some of whom have tried or want to know about weed and its relationship with the Papacy.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)21:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
If your claim were consistent, a LOT of the Cannabis in X country articles would need to be deleted. Is marijuana policy in Vatican City really not as notable as the articles for San Marino, Sao Tome e Principe, the Cook Islands, New Caledonia (now we're just getting into dependent territories, not sovereign nations) and other tiny lands? What you're proposing ought to imply a large-reaching reform and decision about weed-related articles, not just knock off a few individual ones.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)22:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
As I said before, Perhaps there are some others in the series that I think should be deleted.
Other stuff exists is not a valid rationale here, but feel free to nominate any pages for deletion yourself after evaluating them according to
WP:BEFORE (as I did here, but don't have time to do on 200 pages). — Bilorv(c)(talk)22:48, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Wouldn't it be far better for the site if you're correct, to try to enact a general change in policy concerning weed-related articles instead of pruning individual ones like this? I don't think OSE applies here necessarily, because in this case A LOT of other stuff exists to the extent it becomes a rule. I don't know what makes Vatican City so special a target.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)23:00, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
No, there is no point making a policy for such a small set of articles (a couple of hundred). There's no need, because our current policies cover it already—specifically
WP:GNG, which you continue not to mention. I'll say again: I do not view Vatican City as a unique case, but as this is the third time I've made the point, I won't continue to harp on about it any further. — Bilorv(c)(talk)23:15, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your sharpshooting strategy here is very bizarre. I must say. Regardless, I can only settle on merging with most of the content remaining intact.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk)23:49, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
For completeness: my opening comment at PR was "I initially thought this a rather odd topic for an article". While noting it formed part of a series, I also remarked that "the History section looks patchy. 1484 and then nothing until 1929". I think
Bilorv has a valid point. If there's really nothing worth noting about cannabis use in The Vatican, or any specific state, then it is questionable as to whether an article on the topic is warranted. Another suggestion might be a section within the article,
Cannabis in Italy.
KJP1 (
talk)
22:44, 3 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment, i am confused by one of the article creator's initial statements - "there's articles for every country and its relationship to weed, see
legality of cannabis.", i count 22 countries/territories in that article that are redlinked so, no, WP does not have a canabis article for every country.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
03:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete, does not meet
WP:GNG, agree with the nominator that the article does not have enough appropriate sources (ie. actually about this specific subject) to warrant a standalone (i have been unable to find any and none have been forthcoming), although the above suggestions about merging/adding some info to various articles are possible, i believe this to be inappropriate as it would place
too much emphasis on this issue in those articles.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
03:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.