- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Further details and article improvements, possibly renaming and/or merging the article, etc. can be discussed on the article talk page, if desired. North America 1000 15:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
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- Bullfrog, Utah ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a campground and marina, which is what it said on the topos before someone left out the "Marina" and hand wrote in the "campground". Before Lake Powell, it was nothing at all. So "Bullfrog" seems to be a fiction born out of bad map editing and reading. What's particularly, well, something is that the article was created both calling it a "small community" and saying that it was a campground/marina. At any rate, there's no way this passes notability. Mangoe ( talk) 04:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Utah. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 05:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'd point out that this wasn't a GNIS-sourced item in its earliest revisions, but in fact it was an indirect GNIS-sourced one, sourced to a "hometownlocator". The GNIS records referenced aren't in the current WWW interface which has had all non-ppl and "(historic)" records excluded. The several "Bullfrog" records in the unabridged database were three "locales" (i.e. places that weren't even populated), a "bay" named Bullfrog Bay, and an "airport" named Bullfrog Basin Airport. (
Bullfrog Creek is actually somewhere else.) This is suggestive of a possible refactoring into geography.
Researching, I find that it is both a campground and a marina. It's a USNPS resort on Lake Powell in the NRA. The Scott&Scott guidebook to National Park Lodges published by Rowman & Littlefield notes that the lodge was "constructed in the early 1980s", which is after GNIS phase 1, and the hand annotations to the maps would have been part of GNIS phase 2. There's an iUniverse book by a "retired businessman" and a "Lake Powell veteran" whose credentials to research history I do not trust.
But after encountering some 1960s sources I finally find ISBN 9780816518876 which is a University of Arizona Press book that documents Bullfrog Basin, which has been a redirect here since 2008. So it looks like renaming over that redirect and refactoring with sources like that in hand is the answer.
Uncle G ( talk) 10:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Addendum,
ISBN
9781607813118, a University of Utah Press book, is another such source, which has a bit about the 1960s expansion of the marina on page 47.
Uncle G (
talk)
10:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have to question a mid 1960s expansion of the area, because the lake only started filling in 1963. Be that as it may, we are still left with a routine recreational facility of no especial note, and I see that of the other facilities mentioned in the
Lake Powell article, the only two that have their own articles are one place that for some unfathomable reason is graced with a CDP, and another which WLs to a supposed drowned town, not to the facility. It would actually make sense to expand the section on the facilities in the main Lake Powell article, and redirect
Bullfrog Basin to that, but Bullfrog itself remains a complete fiction.
Mangoe (
talk)
05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- A fiction with fairly convincing big concrete signs. It's just not an "unincorporated community". It's a campground, marina, airport, and ferry terminus. And people were doing stuff on the river before it became a lake. Uncle G ( talk) 08:45, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
-
this picture is credited as "NPS photo" as is
this picture and might be free content.
Uncle G (
talk)
11:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- That is a sign for (as it says) a visitor center, not a community. I'm still have trouble with where you are going with this. It's not a community; it's a complex of recreational facilities run for the NPS by a contractor. Is it notable as such? So far, I'm not convinced. It seems to have the same sort of coverage that any such facility gets.
Mangoe (
talk)
02:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Well I'm definitely not going down your "Bullfrog doesn't exist." route, given that that would put me into direct conflict with a photographer for NPR who has apparently been there. ☺ Uncle G ( talk) 07:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- That is a sign for (as it says) a visitor center, not a community. I'm still have trouble with where you are going with this. It's not a community; it's a complex of recreational facilities run for the NPS by a contractor. Is it notable as such? So far, I'm not convinced. It seems to have the same sort of coverage that any such facility gets.
Mangoe (
talk)
02:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have to question a mid 1960s expansion of the area, because the lake only started filling in 1963. Be that as it may, we are still left with a routine recreational facility of no especial note, and I see that of the other facilities mentioned in the
Lake Powell article, the only two that have their own articles are one place that for some unfathomable reason is graced with a CDP, and another which WLs to a supposed drowned town, not to the facility. It would actually make sense to expand the section on the facilities in the main Lake Powell article, and redirect
Bullfrog Basin to that, but Bullfrog itself remains a complete fiction.
Mangoe (
talk)
05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Addendum,
ISBN
9781607813118, a University of Utah Press book, is another such source, which has a bit about the 1960s expansion of the marina on page 47.
Uncle G (
talk)
10:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, per Uncle G's information. Although it could be moved/renamed as a separate matter, not requiring AFD attention. --
Doncram (
talk)
04:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- As per above, there is no "Bullfrog, Utah". Mangoe ( talk) 05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and rename perhaps either to
Bullfrog Basin or
Bullfrog Marina. I think this is a notable area with a variety of services in the National Recreation Area that has enough coverage to warrant an article. Thanks to Uncle G for solid improvements. However I would still suggest a merge to
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, but that article is astonishingly poor and this would be undue there. I guess most of the content is at
Lake Powell, so reorganization may be warranted, with a merge to a subarticle or subsection focusing on the several marinas on the lake. If someone wanted to work on that it'd be nice.
Reywas92
Talk
03:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
-
Bullfrog Marina already existed in a poor state: I have redirected it here.
Reywas92
Talk
03:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
-
Bullfrog Basin Airport might be mergeable, too. Our article doesn't mention the mooted plan of some years ago to shut it down. Or night landing in 1978. There's not much to support the airport standalone, but, as I said above, it is part of
Bullfrog Basin.
Bullfrog Basin was, despite what GNIS records may say, the USNPS's full official name for this place in actual documentation, such as for example the 1977 environmental review of where the USNPS was going to route electrical power. I haven't even put in what that says. I went for the university press books over the government sources.
This in fact tells us that the GNIS compilers were wrong to classify this as "locale" rather than "ppl". GNIS phase 1 looked at dots on maps. GNIS phase 2 was supposed to improve on that, but has botched the job. Actual history sources and documentation turn up the thing by its full name, as well as what it is.5.6 Bullfrog Basin, Glenn Canyon Recreational Area, Utah
[…]
2) Bullfrog Basin is in the middle of the Glen Canyon Recreational Area in Utah. It enjoys sun almost daily year round, with occasional winter fog conditions.
[…]
5) About 120,000 people visit the area annually. Accessibility is from a service road on the west side of the lake. A landing strip is also at the site.
[…]
9) The site is occupied by several permanent personnel and their families.
— MIT/Lincoln Laboratory Lexington (1977). "Photovoltaic applications in the Southwest for the National Park Service". In United States National Park Service (ed.). Natural Bridges National Monument (N.M.), Proposed Photovoltaic Electrical System B1; Statement for Management (1978) B2; Public Workshops for Development of Management Objectives: Environmental Impact Statement. p. 29.
-
Bullfrog Basin Airport might be mergeable, too. Our article doesn't mention the mooted plan of some years ago to shut it down. Or night landing in 1978. There's not much to support the airport standalone, but, as I said above, it is part of
Bullfrog Basin.
-
Bullfrog Marina already existed in a poor state: I have redirected it here.
Reywas92
Talk
03:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Further details and article improvements, possibly renaming and/or merging the article, etc. can be discussed on the article talk page, if desired. North America 1000 15:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bullfrog, Utah ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a campground and marina, which is what it said on the topos before someone left out the "Marina" and hand wrote in the "campground". Before Lake Powell, it was nothing at all. So "Bullfrog" seems to be a fiction born out of bad map editing and reading. What's particularly, well, something is that the article was created both calling it a "small community" and saying that it was a campground/marina. At any rate, there's no way this passes notability. Mangoe ( talk) 04:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Utah. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 05:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'd point out that this wasn't a GNIS-sourced item in its earliest revisions, but in fact it was an indirect GNIS-sourced one, sourced to a "hometownlocator". The GNIS records referenced aren't in the current WWW interface which has had all non-ppl and "(historic)" records excluded. The several "Bullfrog" records in the unabridged database were three "locales" (i.e. places that weren't even populated), a "bay" named Bullfrog Bay, and an "airport" named Bullfrog Basin Airport. (
Bullfrog Creek is actually somewhere else.) This is suggestive of a possible refactoring into geography.
Researching, I find that it is both a campground and a marina. It's a USNPS resort on Lake Powell in the NRA. The Scott&Scott guidebook to National Park Lodges published by Rowman & Littlefield notes that the lodge was "constructed in the early 1980s", which is after GNIS phase 1, and the hand annotations to the maps would have been part of GNIS phase 2. There's an iUniverse book by a "retired businessman" and a "Lake Powell veteran" whose credentials to research history I do not trust.
But after encountering some 1960s sources I finally find ISBN 9780816518876 which is a University of Arizona Press book that documents Bullfrog Basin, which has been a redirect here since 2008. So it looks like renaming over that redirect and refactoring with sources like that in hand is the answer.
Uncle G ( talk) 10:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Addendum,
ISBN
9781607813118, a University of Utah Press book, is another such source, which has a bit about the 1960s expansion of the marina on page 47.
Uncle G (
talk)
10:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have to question a mid 1960s expansion of the area, because the lake only started filling in 1963. Be that as it may, we are still left with a routine recreational facility of no especial note, and I see that of the other facilities mentioned in the
Lake Powell article, the only two that have their own articles are one place that for some unfathomable reason is graced with a CDP, and another which WLs to a supposed drowned town, not to the facility. It would actually make sense to expand the section on the facilities in the main Lake Powell article, and redirect
Bullfrog Basin to that, but Bullfrog itself remains a complete fiction.
Mangoe (
talk)
05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- A fiction with fairly convincing big concrete signs. It's just not an "unincorporated community". It's a campground, marina, airport, and ferry terminus. And people were doing stuff on the river before it became a lake. Uncle G ( talk) 08:45, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
-
this picture is credited as "NPS photo" as is
this picture and might be free content.
Uncle G (
talk)
11:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- That is a sign for (as it says) a visitor center, not a community. I'm still have trouble with where you are going with this. It's not a community; it's a complex of recreational facilities run for the NPS by a contractor. Is it notable as such? So far, I'm not convinced. It seems to have the same sort of coverage that any such facility gets.
Mangoe (
talk)
02:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Well I'm definitely not going down your "Bullfrog doesn't exist." route, given that that would put me into direct conflict with a photographer for NPR who has apparently been there. ☺ Uncle G ( talk) 07:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- That is a sign for (as it says) a visitor center, not a community. I'm still have trouble with where you are going with this. It's not a community; it's a complex of recreational facilities run for the NPS by a contractor. Is it notable as such? So far, I'm not convinced. It seems to have the same sort of coverage that any such facility gets.
Mangoe (
talk)
02:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have to question a mid 1960s expansion of the area, because the lake only started filling in 1963. Be that as it may, we are still left with a routine recreational facility of no especial note, and I see that of the other facilities mentioned in the
Lake Powell article, the only two that have their own articles are one place that for some unfathomable reason is graced with a CDP, and another which WLs to a supposed drowned town, not to the facility. It would actually make sense to expand the section on the facilities in the main Lake Powell article, and redirect
Bullfrog Basin to that, but Bullfrog itself remains a complete fiction.
Mangoe (
talk)
05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Addendum,
ISBN
9781607813118, a University of Utah Press book, is another such source, which has a bit about the 1960s expansion of the marina on page 47.
Uncle G (
talk)
10:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, per Uncle G's information. Although it could be moved/renamed as a separate matter, not requiring AFD attention. --
Doncram (
talk)
04:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- As per above, there is no "Bullfrog, Utah". Mangoe ( talk) 05:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep and rename perhaps either to
Bullfrog Basin or
Bullfrog Marina. I think this is a notable area with a variety of services in the National Recreation Area that has enough coverage to warrant an article. Thanks to Uncle G for solid improvements. However I would still suggest a merge to
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, but that article is astonishingly poor and this would be undue there. I guess most of the content is at
Lake Powell, so reorganization may be warranted, with a merge to a subarticle or subsection focusing on the several marinas on the lake. If someone wanted to work on that it'd be nice.
Reywas92
Talk
03:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
-
Bullfrog Marina already existed in a poor state: I have redirected it here.
Reywas92
Talk
03:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
-
Bullfrog Basin Airport might be mergeable, too. Our article doesn't mention the mooted plan of some years ago to shut it down. Or night landing in 1978. There's not much to support the airport standalone, but, as I said above, it is part of
Bullfrog Basin.
Bullfrog Basin was, despite what GNIS records may say, the USNPS's full official name for this place in actual documentation, such as for example the 1977 environmental review of where the USNPS was going to route electrical power. I haven't even put in what that says. I went for the university press books over the government sources.
This in fact tells us that the GNIS compilers were wrong to classify this as "locale" rather than "ppl". GNIS phase 1 looked at dots on maps. GNIS phase 2 was supposed to improve on that, but has botched the job. Actual history sources and documentation turn up the thing by its full name, as well as what it is.5.6 Bullfrog Basin, Glenn Canyon Recreational Area, Utah
[…]
2) Bullfrog Basin is in the middle of the Glen Canyon Recreational Area in Utah. It enjoys sun almost daily year round, with occasional winter fog conditions.
[…]
5) About 120,000 people visit the area annually. Accessibility is from a service road on the west side of the lake. A landing strip is also at the site.
[…]
9) The site is occupied by several permanent personnel and their families.
— MIT/Lincoln Laboratory Lexington (1977). "Photovoltaic applications in the Southwest for the National Park Service". In United States National Park Service (ed.). Natural Bridges National Monument (N.M.), Proposed Photovoltaic Electrical System B1; Statement for Management (1978) B2; Public Workshops for Development of Management Objectives: Environmental Impact Statement. p. 29.
-
Bullfrog Basin Airport might be mergeable, too. Our article doesn't mention the mooted plan of some years ago to shut it down. Or night landing in 1978. There's not much to support the airport standalone, but, as I said above, it is part of
Bullfrog Basin.
-
Bullfrog Marina already existed in a poor state: I have redirected it here.
Reywas92
Talk
03:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.