The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Bushranger is correct: named geographic features such as islands pass WP:GEOLAND. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 23:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC) redirect to Pearl and Hermes Atoll. Although we usually keep named features per GEOLAND, we can also redirect them when there's a dearth of information about them. It is clear that this Bird Island is not the same notable Bird Island specifically called out in Executive Order 1019 (see File:Hawaiian_Islands_Reservation_EO_1019_illustration.jpg, they're way too far apart), which is where my impression of notability had come from. Although this book source was brought up at the AfD, it is only a single source and unclear how in-depth it is because the actual page is not available for preview. Happily, there's a copy at a library near me, so I've put it on order and will be able to check the information in it within a few weeks. In the meantime, unless or until more verifiable information about this Bird Island can be found, a redirect is suitable and the island can be covered at the atoll's article. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 21:06, 22 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Bird Island, Hawaii (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Not notable enough to be given an article. Elektricity ( talk) 04:29, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Speedy keep. Named geographic features such as islands pass WP:GEOLAND. Especially when they have book coverage. There is no "not notable enough" in this area. (Also I note the nominator began nominating multiple pages for AfD very quickly following the creation of their account, which is curious behavior.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:29, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

@ The Bushranger _{One ping only} I was under the impression that as Pearl and Hermes Atoll exists as an article, then this island is not notable enough. However after reading the essay you linked, I stand corrected. My apologies for the AFD. I am not sure what the correct procedure is to get the AFD removed, so if you can guide me through that as well; I will appreciate it. I actually made this account to prune an article about a jihadist. He had been given a number of titles etc and the article was being touted on social media as a validation for suicide attacks. Perhaps you can help out there as well? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amir Abdur Rehman Cheema (2nd nomination) Elektricity ( talk) 03:29, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• That's outside my usual area of expertise, but I'll point you to WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As for this AfD, you've declared your intent to withdraw and there aren't any outsdanding Delete !votes, so another admin (as I have !voted) will be along to close it soon. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hawaii-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 11:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 11:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islands-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep per The Bushranger. -- do ncr am 15:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Following Gene93k's note below, there is "Bird Island (Hawaiian Islands)" which exists as a redirect. But it redirects to Nihoa a different article. Is the subject of the current article the same or different? Maybe "Bird Island" is a nickname of more than one island, or this article simple needs to be converted to another redirect to Nihoa. -- do ncr am 17:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• According to GNIS, there are two "Bird Islands" in Hawaii. One is a synonym for Nihoa while the other one lies hundreds of miles further west in Pearl and Hermes Atoll. The Mapcarta reference in the article specifies the one in Pearl and Hermes Atoll. The naming conflict may be resolved with a hat note or a move to Bird Island (Pearl and Hermes Atoll). • Gene93k ( talk) 18:57, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• The two articles each have coordinates which do point to different islands, indeed. And it seems useful to have two articles to differentiate between them; it would be unhelpful for Wikipedia to explain about one of them without the other, causing confusion. -- do ncr am 20:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• That muddled my looking for something on it as well, but yes, there are two Bird Islands; Nihoa, and this one in the Pearl-and-Hermes. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• The current co-ordinates point to an area of open water. The only source in the article conflates the location of this island with South East Island. The article currently fails WP:V. Can we get an accurate location of this island on a map?-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 09:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• The Google Maps satellite view only goes in close enough to see the whole atoll on which the islands are dots. Map mode allows a greater resolution showing the individual islands. While the Mapcarta entry shows South East Island, Bird Island is just to the west according to Google Maps. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:54, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Bing Maps as just one example shows our co-ords appearing in open water roughly halfway between Southeast Island and Sand Island (not labelled but visible as a small island of sand). There is clearly no island there. Our single ref, Mapcarta says Bird Island is "nearby to Southeast Island, east of Sand Island" but the position it gives on the map is identical to that of Southeast Island. Either "Bird Island" is a synonym of "Sand Island" or Southeast Island and the Mapcarta text is wrong, or it doesn't exist. Either way the article fails WP:V-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 06:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• USGS names three distinct islands (Bird Island 1890762, Southeast Island 1890778 and Sand Island 1890774. The USGS coordinates for Bird Island 27°47′33″N 175°50′33″W / 27.7925000°N 175.8425000°W / 27.7925000; -175.8425000 are approximately the same the Google Maps coordinates. • Gene93k ( talk) 20:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• This NOAA site states there are seven islands in total on the atoll. The accompanying map names them and fails to mention Sand Island, placing Bird Island where USGS put Sand Island. I think the only sensible thing is to mention Bird Island in the atoll article, not have a standalone page. WP:GEOLAND concurs for unpopulated features that don't meet the GNG.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 20:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Since this is not a settlement, the correct title should be Bird Island (Hawaiian Islands), which already exists as a redirect. A page move is in order if this article survives AfD. • Gene93k ( talk) 16:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC) reply
• Note to admins: The nominator has withdrawn the nomination above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to Pearl and Hermes Atoll. The nominator may have withdrawn this but I don't see sufficient sources to base an article on. A redirect is more appropriate per WP:GEOLAND "Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography. For example, a river island with no information available except name and location should probably be described in an article on the river." -- Pontificalibus ( talk) 09:17, 15 November 2017 (UTC) reply

On further consideration I am leaning to delete. A search for "Bird Island Hawaii" gives this as the number one result and Bird Island (Hawaiian Islands) as the fifth result, although the latter is clearly the more notable. Deleting this would still enable people to find any mention of a bird island in Pearl and Hermes Atoll while at the same time giving search priority to the more notable island.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 06:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC) reply

There is no "more notable", and we absolutely shouldn't be basing keep-or-delete decisions on the basis of search engine optimization. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:19, 17 November 2017 (UTC) reply

There is clearly a primary topic for "Bird Island, Hawaii" and it's not this island. Decisions on redirects should be based only on search optimization.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 17:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Then perhaps this should be moved to Bird Island (Pearl and Hermes) with Bird Island, Hawaii pointing to the other island? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:29, 21 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comment: I closed the nomination as keep, since the nominator had withdrew before any delete votes. However, Pontificalibus reverted me although his vote came after the withdrawal by the nominator! For attention (@ The Bushranger:) -- Mhhossein ^talk 16:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

An early non-admin closure was not appropriate given my argument set out above. That the nominator withdrew is irrelevant - if it helps, imagine that I would renominate it myself. -- Pontificalibus ( talk) 17:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Closing the nomination was not valid; Pontificalibus was right to reopen it. It could have been closed by a non-involved party (and, although I don't like the practice, perhaps by an involved party) during the short window when the nomination had been withdrawn and there were no dissenting votes outstanding. But "Bird Island"'s notability is a fair topic to discuss, and closing this early as if there is unanimous opinion is not right. About the merits, I myself don't like the fact that the coordinates do seem to point to water, and no one seems to really know where the island is. Although I voted "Keep" above and still think that is marginally the best, the option of covering the topic in the atoll article also seems reasonable. If that is done then I think the outcome here should be to "Redirect" to an {{ anchor}} in the Bird Island disambiguation page, which page should be revised to include an anchor and to cover both of the Hawaii ones. -- do ncr am 19:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep' Passes WP:GEOLAND. This is a pretty obvious case. Smartyllama ( talk) 13:46, 20 November 2017 (UTC) reply

@ Smartyllama could you elaborate as to how you think it passes GEOLAND? Which bit of that policy says we should have an article and not a redirect? -- Pontificalibus ( talk) 14:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comprehensive USGS source This USGS report (pages 37-49) states Pearl and Hermes Atoll consists of "North, Little North, Southeast, Grass, and Seal-Kittery Islands and several small sand spits". This is further supported by the hi-res imagery at NCCOS which doesn't show any land present at the supposed location of Bird Island and also states the atoll consists of "several permanent and numerous ephemeral islets". Perhaps someone named a sand spit Bird Island at one point, whether it's still there is in doubt, and in any case there isn't enough to support a separate article, but it could be mentioned in the atoll's article.-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 07:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.