- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. If anyone wants a copy of this to work towards any kind of merge, let me know. Go Phightins ! 20:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Bernard Kilkeary
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One of the survivors of the Birkenhead sinking, I am not convinced he passes WP:GNG. WP:BEFORE shows passing mentions in a handful of books in addition to this 1902 work in which his career gets a couple of pages. Of the sources in the article one is not reliable and the other is the (blank) search page of a genealogy site. The article claims he held commissioned rank for two years but it was certainly not that of General which is stated in his infobox. There is no mention of a significant gallantry award. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Weak delete per nom. Cannot find evidence that the expectations of WP:NSOLDIER, WP:SIGCOV, WP:VICTIM are met. WP:BIO1E would seem to apply (in that the main/only material claim to notability is that the subject, together with 193 other people, survived the sinking of the Birkenhead). Any relevant detail, relating to the subject's role in that event, could likely be covered in the HMS Birkenhead (1845) article. If cited/needed. Otherwise, while the article itself doesn't state as much, the description of the subject/image used in the article seems to imply that the subject was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal. I am not an expert (on how "important" this medal might be or how we now apply the former notability standards in this area) but I'm not sure this contributes much to notability on its own. Absent other sources or evidences, mine is a "delete" recommendation... Guliolopez ( talk) 12:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- As a note the MSM was awarded either for long service and good conduct (in which case it adds little to notability) or as a gallantry award. In this case the image description seems to suggest it was awarded in 1905 for gallantry. The history of British gallantry medals is a little complex (partly due to a distinction between medals awarded to officers and those to other ranks) at this time I believe it would have been the lowest-level gallantry award for other ranks, ranking below the
Victoria Cross and
Distinguished Conduct Medal -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Usually it would have been awarded for non-combat gallantry, with the VC and DCM reserved for gallantry in action. However, given he was 78 at the time of the award I suspect his MSM was for long and meritorious service, not for gallantry. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:50, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- As a note the MSM was awarded either for long service and good conduct (in which case it adds little to notability) or as a gallantry award. In this case the image description seems to suggest it was awarded in 1905 for gallantry. The history of British gallantry medals is a little complex (partly due to a distinction between medals awarded to officers and those to other ranks) at this time I believe it would have been the lowest-level gallantry award for other ranks, ranking below the
Victoria Cross and
Distinguished Conduct Medal -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to meet WP:GNG. Mztourist ( talk) 12:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete agree with others RE lack of SIGCOV. Zawed ( talk) 01:49, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Merge a very brief summary to HMS Birkenhead (1845)#Legacy. I do not believe this old soldier was separately notable. Peterkingiron ( talk) 18:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Zin Win Hlaing ( talk) 08:59, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and Guliolope; apart from the mere fact of surviving the sinking, content is mostly about a military career that doesn't meet WP:NSOLDIER — Alalch Emis ( talk) 20:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. If anyone wants a copy of this to work towards any kind of merge, let me know. Go Phightins ! 20:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Bernard Kilkeary
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bernard Kilkeary ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
One of the survivors of the Birkenhead sinking, I am not convinced he passes WP:GNG. WP:BEFORE shows passing mentions in a handful of books in addition to this 1902 work in which his career gets a couple of pages. Of the sources in the article one is not reliable and the other is the (blank) search page of a genealogy site. The article claims he held commissioned rank for two years but it was certainly not that of General which is stated in his infobox. There is no mention of a significant gallantry award. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Dumelow ( talk) 11:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Weak delete per nom. Cannot find evidence that the expectations of WP:NSOLDIER, WP:SIGCOV, WP:VICTIM are met. WP:BIO1E would seem to apply (in that the main/only material claim to notability is that the subject, together with 193 other people, survived the sinking of the Birkenhead). Any relevant detail, relating to the subject's role in that event, could likely be covered in the HMS Birkenhead (1845) article. If cited/needed. Otherwise, while the article itself doesn't state as much, the description of the subject/image used in the article seems to imply that the subject was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal. I am not an expert (on how "important" this medal might be or how we now apply the former notability standards in this area) but I'm not sure this contributes much to notability on its own. Absent other sources or evidences, mine is a "delete" recommendation... Guliolopez ( talk) 12:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- As a note the MSM was awarded either for long service and good conduct (in which case it adds little to notability) or as a gallantry award. In this case the image description seems to suggest it was awarded in 1905 for gallantry. The history of British gallantry medals is a little complex (partly due to a distinction between medals awarded to officers and those to other ranks) at this time I believe it would have been the lowest-level gallantry award for other ranks, ranking below the
Victoria Cross and
Distinguished Conduct Medal -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Usually it would have been awarded for non-combat gallantry, with the VC and DCM reserved for gallantry in action. However, given he was 78 at the time of the award I suspect his MSM was for long and meritorious service, not for gallantry. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:50, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- As a note the MSM was awarded either for long service and good conduct (in which case it adds little to notability) or as a gallantry award. In this case the image description seems to suggest it was awarded in 1905 for gallantry. The history of British gallantry medals is a little complex (partly due to a distinction between medals awarded to officers and those to other ranks) at this time I believe it would have been the lowest-level gallantry award for other ranks, ranking below the
Victoria Cross and
Distinguished Conduct Medal -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:35, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to meet WP:GNG. Mztourist ( talk) 12:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete agree with others RE lack of SIGCOV. Zawed ( talk) 01:49, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Merge a very brief summary to HMS Birkenhead (1845)#Legacy. I do not believe this old soldier was separately notable. Peterkingiron ( talk) 18:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Zin Win Hlaing ( talk) 08:59, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and Guliolope; apart from the mere fact of surviving the sinking, content is mostly about a military career that doesn't meet WP:NSOLDIER — Alalch Emis ( talk) 20:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.