- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:20, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
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- Battle of Ash-Shihr ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Per User: Liz:
"But this is definitely not using "No consensus" in lieu of a "Keep" decision. I think you'd have a more productive and focused discussion if there was a return to AFD with these articles unbundled so participants could spend time assessing the notability of each individual event instead of discussing contributors or speculating on their motivations and points-of-view. I think it would also be helpful if you posted announcements of future AFD discussions on related WikiProjects, like Military History, on the next go-round. We need more subject matter experts here."
This is the second of a series of bogus articles that were created by this user which I'm nominating for deletion.
The only evidence for a supposed "battle" involving the Portuguese and Ottomans at As-Shir in 1530 consists of a brief passage in a single Arabian chronicle, published by the scholar R. B Serjeant in The Portuguese off the South Arabian Coast, which happens to have been conveniently posted by another user on the talk page. It reads:
"On Sunday night, 13th Rabïf II, Mustafa voyaged from the port of al-Shihr bound for India, for fear of the arrival of the Frank, but those he had sent with Sultan Badr remained, they and Safar Salman, in the camp (:mahattah) of the Sultan (in Wadi Hadramawt) .... On Thursday, 15th of the same month (Djumâdâ I), a grab of the Frank arrived, and, entering the port of al-Shihr, fell in with a number of vessels arrived from Diu. It wanted to seize what was in them, but Safar Salman and a party of Turks put out to sea in its direction. They made towards it, but when it saw them it turned tail."
...And which anyone who actually reads it can tell, there's nothing in it about any battle having taken place, or any kind of fighting being involved whatsoever. No Portuguese sources speak of a battle at Ash-Shihr in 1530.
On the other hand, the supposed Portuguese commander, Manuel de Vasconcelos, attacked the city in 1532 and defeated the Ottomans there, as can be read here. Relevant passage: About the end of February Emanuel de Vasconcellos set out for the Red Sea with two Galliots, and some Brigantines. At Xael with the loss of one Man he took some Turkish Vessels laden, and among them a great Ship called Custurca, which was sent [to] Mascate. The King of Xael fearful of some danger, made his Peace with Submission and Presents. This source confirms it; relevant passage: "About the end of February 1532, Emanuel de Vasconcelles was sent to the Red Sea with two galliots and several brigantines to cruise against the Turks. Off Xael he captured several Turkish vessels, among which was a large ship, named Custurca, which was sent to Muscant.". This chronological source records no Portuguese battle at Ash-Shihr in 1530.
Any attempts to correct the article however, were met with an aggressively defensive reaction by the creator, who rejected any input. Wareno ( talk) 16:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Military, Portugal, and Turkey. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: This nomination seems like a continuation of an edit dispute that was barely discussed on the talk page of the article.--
Gazozlu (
talk)
18:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Any article may be nominated for deletion if such a course of action is shown to be called for and the creator has clearly shown to not be interested in input. Spamming wikitags and pushing the same tertiary sources without addressing the fact that this event isn't mentioned in any primary or secondary sources, like the creator has done here and elsewhere doesn't show that it isn't called for, on the contrary. Wareno ( talk) 21:49, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:VERIFIABILITY. The reason for deletion being that this event did not happen is completely false, this event can be easily verified by its in page references. Moreover, I’m unsure as to why the user who nominated this page for deletion is referring to sources about Ash-Shihr in 1530 when this event clearly took place in 1531 as stated in the article. Page 9 of this source which is specifically and solely focused on the failed Portuguese dominions of the Red Sea clearly states that an attack on Ash-Shihr occurred in 1531 and that the commander was Manoel de Vasconcellos (accessible pdf to this source can be found here). Other than this extremely relevant source there are numerous other in page references that support the fact that this event did indeed happen. Although the exact month is uncertain the in page references confirm that this event occurred at the beginning of 1531.
- “1531 Manoel de Vasconcellos 9 sails Attack on al-Shihr” [1]
- “The following month , ( 15 Jamaziyal ago / 3 January 1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr , but was defeated by Hodja Sefer and driven away” [2] (translated from Turkish using google translate).
- “The following month ( 15 Cemaziyel - ago / 3 February 1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr ; but he was defeated by Hoca Sefer“ [3] (translated from Turkish using google translate).
Please read the in page references as there are more sources that attest the occurrence of this event in 1531. Regards Kabz15 ( talk)
- Besides no primary or secondary source attesting any battle by Manuel de Vasconcelos or anyone at the claimed time or space, the creator has only pushed tertiary sources that either give no sources that corroborate their claims, or do not agree in the number of vessels involved or don't say the name of the commander. The PDF always specifies when the Portuguese were defeated, but in this case says only "Attack on al-Shihr". "1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr ; but he was defeated", so was it one ship or nine? According to who? Where's the battle? On what are they based to say the commander was Vasconcelos? At worst it's a complete WP:HOAX based on WP:UNRELIABLE sources at best it fails WP:NOTABILITY Wareno ( talk) 13:07, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Andreu Martínez d’Alòs-Moner; Conquistadores, Mercenaries, and Missionaries: The Failed Portuguese Dominion of the Red Sea. Northeast African Studies 1 April 2012; 12 (1): 1–28. p.9.
- ^ Mughul, Muhammad Yakub. Kanunı̂ devri. Turkey: Kültür ve Turizm Bakanlığı, 1987.
- ^ Tarih Enstitüsü dergisi. Turkey: İstanbul Üniversitesi, Edebiyat Fakültesi, Tarih Enstitüsü, 1974.
- Keep (possibly renamed) -- The sources quoted clearly indicate that the Portuguese made an attack, which was driven off by the Turks. Whether the event is correctly described as a "battle" is questionable: it sounds more like an attack or a raid. Northeast African Studies sounds to me like an academic journal, which would be WP:RS. Another source is published by a Turkish university. The question of 1530 or 1531 may be a question of whether the year ended on 31 December or 25 March. If the latter dates in January and February would be in 1530 according to that usage, but modern historical practice is to alter dates to the present style (as 1531). Peterkingiron ( talk) 16:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:20, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Battle of Ash-Shihr ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Per User: Liz:
"But this is definitely not using "No consensus" in lieu of a "Keep" decision. I think you'd have a more productive and focused discussion if there was a return to AFD with these articles unbundled so participants could spend time assessing the notability of each individual event instead of discussing contributors or speculating on their motivations and points-of-view. I think it would also be helpful if you posted announcements of future AFD discussions on related WikiProjects, like Military History, on the next go-round. We need more subject matter experts here."
This is the second of a series of bogus articles that were created by this user which I'm nominating for deletion.
The only evidence for a supposed "battle" involving the Portuguese and Ottomans at As-Shir in 1530 consists of a brief passage in a single Arabian chronicle, published by the scholar R. B Serjeant in The Portuguese off the South Arabian Coast, which happens to have been conveniently posted by another user on the talk page. It reads:
"On Sunday night, 13th Rabïf II, Mustafa voyaged from the port of al-Shihr bound for India, for fear of the arrival of the Frank, but those he had sent with Sultan Badr remained, they and Safar Salman, in the camp (:mahattah) of the Sultan (in Wadi Hadramawt) .... On Thursday, 15th of the same month (Djumâdâ I), a grab of the Frank arrived, and, entering the port of al-Shihr, fell in with a number of vessels arrived from Diu. It wanted to seize what was in them, but Safar Salman and a party of Turks put out to sea in its direction. They made towards it, but when it saw them it turned tail."
...And which anyone who actually reads it can tell, there's nothing in it about any battle having taken place, or any kind of fighting being involved whatsoever. No Portuguese sources speak of a battle at Ash-Shihr in 1530.
On the other hand, the supposed Portuguese commander, Manuel de Vasconcelos, attacked the city in 1532 and defeated the Ottomans there, as can be read here. Relevant passage: About the end of February Emanuel de Vasconcellos set out for the Red Sea with two Galliots, and some Brigantines. At Xael with the loss of one Man he took some Turkish Vessels laden, and among them a great Ship called Custurca, which was sent [to] Mascate. The King of Xael fearful of some danger, made his Peace with Submission and Presents. This source confirms it; relevant passage: "About the end of February 1532, Emanuel de Vasconcelles was sent to the Red Sea with two galliots and several brigantines to cruise against the Turks. Off Xael he captured several Turkish vessels, among which was a large ship, named Custurca, which was sent to Muscant.". This chronological source records no Portuguese battle at Ash-Shihr in 1530.
Any attempts to correct the article however, were met with an aggressively defensive reaction by the creator, who rejected any input. Wareno ( talk) 16:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Military, Portugal, and Turkey. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: This nomination seems like a continuation of an edit dispute that was barely discussed on the talk page of the article.--
Gazozlu (
talk)
18:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Any article may be nominated for deletion if such a course of action is shown to be called for and the creator has clearly shown to not be interested in input. Spamming wikitags and pushing the same tertiary sources without addressing the fact that this event isn't mentioned in any primary or secondary sources, like the creator has done here and elsewhere doesn't show that it isn't called for, on the contrary. Wareno ( talk) 21:49, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:VERIFIABILITY. The reason for deletion being that this event did not happen is completely false, this event can be easily verified by its in page references. Moreover, I’m unsure as to why the user who nominated this page for deletion is referring to sources about Ash-Shihr in 1530 when this event clearly took place in 1531 as stated in the article. Page 9 of this source which is specifically and solely focused on the failed Portuguese dominions of the Red Sea clearly states that an attack on Ash-Shihr occurred in 1531 and that the commander was Manoel de Vasconcellos (accessible pdf to this source can be found here). Other than this extremely relevant source there are numerous other in page references that support the fact that this event did indeed happen. Although the exact month is uncertain the in page references confirm that this event occurred at the beginning of 1531.
- “1531 Manoel de Vasconcellos 9 sails Attack on al-Shihr” [1]
- “The following month , ( 15 Jamaziyal ago / 3 January 1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr , but was defeated by Hodja Sefer and driven away” [2] (translated from Turkish using google translate).
- “The following month ( 15 Cemaziyel - ago / 3 February 1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr ; but he was defeated by Hoca Sefer“ [3] (translated from Turkish using google translate).
Please read the in page references as there are more sources that attest the occurrence of this event in 1531. Regards Kabz15 ( talk)
- Besides no primary or secondary source attesting any battle by Manuel de Vasconcelos or anyone at the claimed time or space, the creator has only pushed tertiary sources that either give no sources that corroborate their claims, or do not agree in the number of vessels involved or don't say the name of the commander. The PDF always specifies when the Portuguese were defeated, but in this case says only "Attack on al-Shihr". "1531 ) a Portuguese ship entered the port of Shihr ; but he was defeated", so was it one ship or nine? According to who? Where's the battle? On what are they based to say the commander was Vasconcelos? At worst it's a complete WP:HOAX based on WP:UNRELIABLE sources at best it fails WP:NOTABILITY Wareno ( talk) 13:07, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Andreu Martínez d’Alòs-Moner; Conquistadores, Mercenaries, and Missionaries: The Failed Portuguese Dominion of the Red Sea. Northeast African Studies 1 April 2012; 12 (1): 1–28. p.9.
- ^ Mughul, Muhammad Yakub. Kanunı̂ devri. Turkey: Kültür ve Turizm Bakanlığı, 1987.
- ^ Tarih Enstitüsü dergisi. Turkey: İstanbul Üniversitesi, Edebiyat Fakültesi, Tarih Enstitüsü, 1974.
- Keep (possibly renamed) -- The sources quoted clearly indicate that the Portuguese made an attack, which was driven off by the Turks. Whether the event is correctly described as a "battle" is questionable: it sounds more like an attack or a raid. Northeast African Studies sounds to me like an academic journal, which would be WP:RS. Another source is published by a Turkish university. The question of 1530 or 1531 may be a question of whether the year ended on 31 December or 25 March. If the latter dates in January and February would be in 1530 according to that usage, but modern historical practice is to alter dates to the present style (as 1531). Peterkingiron ( talk) 16:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.