- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 21:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bagbanlar, Ganja ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This should be deleted, because there is no indication on any other source that this place exists, and it is likely not notable even if it did exist. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Bagbanlar is listed as a 'Section of a Populated Place' in United States. Geographic Names Division (1970). U.S.S.R.: Official Standard Names Approved by the United States Board on Geographic Names. The Division. p. 276. - located at 40.39 N, 46.19 E. Looking at google maps, there is indeed an area with a 'Banbaglar Mosque' in the south western portions of Ganja. The other 'Bagbanlar' in that document is clearly Bağbanlar, Agdam. -- Soman ( talk) 12:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - See Central Asian Review. Central Asian Research Centre. 1963. "By the same decree the following administrative/territorial changed have been made: [...] The settlements of town type of Bagbanlar , Krasnoye Selo , and Oktyabr ' have been included in the boundaries of the town of Kirovabad", having existed as 'settlement of town type' prior to merger with Ganja/Kirovabad this would be sufficient for keeping an article in line with Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features) "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low" -- Soman ( talk) 12:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Merge If the small settlement was merged into Ganja, Azerbaijan, we should too. The source above established that this is in fact not a "legally recognized place, but rather it's a neighborhood within the legally recognized Ganja. We have nothing else to say about it beyond existence. Reywas92 Talk 21:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, if it was a town settlement before the merger into Ganja, it merits a separate article. Notability in Wikipedia isn't temporary, if it was a separate legally recognized place prior to merger into a larger municipality it warrants a separate article. --
Soman (
talk)
10:16, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Settlement" is not our basis for automatic notability, as you note "legally recognized" is, and "if it was a separate legally recognized place" does not have basis. This includes incorporation as a place with local government, or details about population in a census, or otherwise having defined borders, but not merely being a named neighborhood, about which nothing beyond existence is known. Still, we have no policies mandating separate articles for such places that can be covered in another article, just like the many communities that have been annexed into recognized cities and towns in the US, for example.
Reywas92
Talk
20:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Azerbaĭdzhanskai︠a︡ SSR: administrativno-territorialʹnoe delenie. Azerbaĭdzhanskoe gos. izd-vo. 1961. p. 145. clarifies that the Bagbanlar PGT was formed in 1946, i.e. a formal administrative territorial unit. This PGT was then merged with Kirovabad in 1963. -- Soman ( talk) 22:47, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Settlement" is not our basis for automatic notability, as you note "legally recognized" is, and "if it was a separate legally recognized place" does not have basis. This includes incorporation as a place with local government, or details about population in a census, or otherwise having defined borders, but not merely being a named neighborhood, about which nothing beyond existence is known. Still, we have no policies mandating separate articles for such places that can be covered in another article, just like the many communities that have been annexed into recognized cities and towns in the US, for example.
Reywas92
Talk
20:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Türk dünyası araştırmaları. Türk Dünyası Araştırmaları Vakfı. 1998. pp. 108–115. seems to have quite a lot of in-depth history of this place, at least stemming back to 16th century, but someone with better Turkish language skills could make more out of it. My understanding is that the Bagbanlar (plural of 'Baghban') PGT would have been formed out of the two areas described in the book, the I 'Bala Bağban' (small Baghban, 'garden', old merchant area, with wineyards in 16th century?) and the 'Büyük Bağban' (large Baghban, rural area south of Ganja) http://www.gancapost.info/g-nc-nin-bala-bagban-m-h-ll-si-tarix-h1289.htm has some history on the area. Hüseyin Baykara (1975). Azerbaycan istiklâl mücadelesi tarihi. Azerbaycan Halk Yayınları. p. 11. describes the two localities as Turkish areas (in the context of Armenian-Turkish conflict). -- Soman ( talk) 23:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep based on Soman's research. I can't access those excerpts but I'm happy to try to track down native speakers to decipher them if someone can grab them.-- Milowent • has spoken 12:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Soman's findings and we should avoid systematic bias in such cases. -- KartikeyaS ( talk) 20:11, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 21:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bagbanlar, Ganja ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This should be deleted, because there is no indication on any other source that this place exists, and it is likely not notable even if it did exist. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. Techie3 ( talk) 11:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Bagbanlar is listed as a 'Section of a Populated Place' in United States. Geographic Names Division (1970). U.S.S.R.: Official Standard Names Approved by the United States Board on Geographic Names. The Division. p. 276. - located at 40.39 N, 46.19 E. Looking at google maps, there is indeed an area with a 'Banbaglar Mosque' in the south western portions of Ganja. The other 'Bagbanlar' in that document is clearly Bağbanlar, Agdam. -- Soman ( talk) 12:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - See Central Asian Review. Central Asian Research Centre. 1963. "By the same decree the following administrative/territorial changed have been made: [...] The settlements of town type of Bagbanlar , Krasnoye Selo , and Oktyabr ' have been included in the boundaries of the town of Kirovabad", having existed as 'settlement of town type' prior to merger with Ganja/Kirovabad this would be sufficient for keeping an article in line with Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features) "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low" -- Soman ( talk) 12:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Merge If the small settlement was merged into Ganja, Azerbaijan, we should too. The source above established that this is in fact not a "legally recognized place, but rather it's a neighborhood within the legally recognized Ganja. We have nothing else to say about it beyond existence. Reywas92 Talk 21:15, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, if it was a town settlement before the merger into Ganja, it merits a separate article. Notability in Wikipedia isn't temporary, if it was a separate legally recognized place prior to merger into a larger municipality it warrants a separate article. --
Soman (
talk)
10:16, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Settlement" is not our basis for automatic notability, as you note "legally recognized" is, and "if it was a separate legally recognized place" does not have basis. This includes incorporation as a place with local government, or details about population in a census, or otherwise having defined borders, but not merely being a named neighborhood, about which nothing beyond existence is known. Still, we have no policies mandating separate articles for such places that can be covered in another article, just like the many communities that have been annexed into recognized cities and towns in the US, for example.
Reywas92
Talk
20:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Azerbaĭdzhanskai︠a︡ SSR: administrativno-territorialʹnoe delenie. Azerbaĭdzhanskoe gos. izd-vo. 1961. p. 145. clarifies that the Bagbanlar PGT was formed in 1946, i.e. a formal administrative territorial unit. This PGT was then merged with Kirovabad in 1963. -- Soman ( talk) 22:47, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Settlement" is not our basis for automatic notability, as you note "legally recognized" is, and "if it was a separate legally recognized place" does not have basis. This includes incorporation as a place with local government, or details about population in a census, or otherwise having defined borders, but not merely being a named neighborhood, about which nothing beyond existence is known. Still, we have no policies mandating separate articles for such places that can be covered in another article, just like the many communities that have been annexed into recognized cities and towns in the US, for example.
Reywas92
Talk
20:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Türk dünyası araştırmaları. Türk Dünyası Araştırmaları Vakfı. 1998. pp. 108–115. seems to have quite a lot of in-depth history of this place, at least stemming back to 16th century, but someone with better Turkish language skills could make more out of it. My understanding is that the Bagbanlar (plural of 'Baghban') PGT would have been formed out of the two areas described in the book, the I 'Bala Bağban' (small Baghban, 'garden', old merchant area, with wineyards in 16th century?) and the 'Büyük Bağban' (large Baghban, rural area south of Ganja) http://www.gancapost.info/g-nc-nin-bala-bagban-m-h-ll-si-tarix-h1289.htm has some history on the area. Hüseyin Baykara (1975). Azerbaycan istiklâl mücadelesi tarihi. Azerbaycan Halk Yayınları. p. 11. describes the two localities as Turkish areas (in the context of Armenian-Turkish conflict). -- Soman ( talk) 23:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep based on Soman's research. I can't access those excerpts but I'm happy to try to track down native speakers to decipher them if someone can grab them.-- Milowent • has spoken 12:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Soman's findings and we should avoid systematic bias in such cases. -- KartikeyaS ( talk) 20:11, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.