- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure) OhHaiMark ( talk) 16:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Babylon Mystery Religion ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not remotely notable. The only sources I could find covering these are primary sources, which don't really fulfill the notability guidelines. Additionally, the guidelines for books can't save the article as it hasn't won any awards or got any reviews. OhHaiMark ( talk) 11:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity, Paganism, and United States of America. OhHaiMark ( talk) 11:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria says:
SourcesA book is presumed notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria:
- The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.
- Garding, Valerie (1981-09-05).
"Expose of 'doctrines of demons'".
Red Deer Advocate. Archived from
the original on 2024-06-06. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Newspapers.com.
The review notes: "Here is a shocking book: an expose of the "doctrines of demons," that have crept into our churches unaware. The number and prevalence of them is so high, I can't begin to discuss these departures from truth here. Without the adequate background of historical fact which the author provides, his claims would appear outrageous. For those who are eager seekers for truth; for those of every denomination and religion who really want to know, I recommend this book. The facts it presents—well documented by Christian and Secular sources alike demand examination."
-
Keating, Karl (1988).
Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians". San Francisco:
Ignatius Press. pp. 159–162.
ISBN
0-89870-177-5. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes: "Babylon Mystery Religion does not have much to say about sex; it is not prurient in the most common connotation of the word. It is prurient according to the other dictionary definition in that it satisfies restless cravings many people have. They want to believe there is a dark secret to Catholicism, and they want to be let in on the secret. They want to luxuriate in horror stories, and they want their worst suspicions confirmed. Woodrow's book shows that Catholicism's success has been due not to its merits, but to influence-peddling, fortuitous events, and underhanded dealings, even violence. It demonstrates that Catholicism is really something dark and alien to Christianity—something, in fact, connected with Christianity only tangentially, not essentially. Woodrow's thesis, which is not new to him, is that Catholicism's distinctive elements have not been derived from authentic Christianity. They are not legitimate developments, but wholesale borrowings from pre-Christian cults."
The book notes: "Babylon Mystery Religion is indebted to Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons, first published in 1853 and reprinted innumerable times since. In fact, Woodrow's book would not be described wrongly as a revised version of Hislop's. The argument is that things that distinguish Catholicism from Protestantism—such as the papacy, intercession of the saints, and purgatory—are really borrowings from ancient pagan religions. With sketches, photographs, woodcuts, and a host of one-liners, Woodrow attempts to show this. From Egyptian devotion to Isis, the reader is told, comes Catholic devotion to Mary, and from Buddhism comes the sign of the Cross. St. Bridget never existed, but was merely a replacement for a fertility goddess."
-
Olson, Carl E. (2003).
Will Catholics Be Left Behind: A Critique of the Rapture and Today's Prophecy Preachers. San Francisco:
Ignatius Press. p. 63.
ISBN
0-89870-950-4. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes in a footnote: "Perhaps the most damning indictment of Hislop's The Two Babylons: The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife (originally written in 1853–1858) is Ralph Woodrow's The Babylon Connection? (Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1997). In 1966 Woodrow wrote Babylon Mystery Religion Ancient and Modern (Riverside, Calif.: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1966), a reworking of Hislop's book. After some time passed, Woodrow did further study and saw that Hislop's book was seriously flawed and historically untenable. "As I [studied]," Woodrow admits, "it became clear—Hislop's 'history' was often only mythology. Even though myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths can not provide a sound basis for history. Take enough tribes, enough tales, enough time, jump from one time to another, from one country to another, pick and choose similarities—why anything could be 'proved'!" (from www.amazon.com). Woodrow then wrote The Babylon Connection? and admitted the errors of his first book. For a Catholic critique of both Hislop and Woodrow see Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), pp. 68–69, 159–63, 219–24."
- Less significant coverage:
-
Price, Robert M. (2007).
The Paperback Apocalypse: How the Christian Church Was Left Behind. Amherst, New York:
Prometheus Books. p. 281.
ISBN
978-1-59102-583-2. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The book notes: "More than likely, Jenkins got the name from the title of an old, rabidly anti-Catholic book, Ralph Woodrow's Babylon Mystery Religion (1966)."
-
Price, Robert M. (2007).
The Paperback Apocalypse: How the Christian Church Was Left Behind. Amherst, New York:
Prometheus Books. p. 281.
ISBN
978-1-59102-583-2. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
- Keep: per Cunard's sources. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 12:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Per Cunard. Sufficient coverage to meet WP:NBOOK. ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 14:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure) OhHaiMark ( talk) 16:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Babylon Mystery Religion ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not remotely notable. The only sources I could find covering these are primary sources, which don't really fulfill the notability guidelines. Additionally, the guidelines for books can't save the article as it hasn't won any awards or got any reviews. OhHaiMark ( talk) 11:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity, Paganism, and United States of America. OhHaiMark ( talk) 11:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria says:
SourcesA book is presumed notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria:
- The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.
- Garding, Valerie (1981-09-05).
"Expose of 'doctrines of demons'".
Red Deer Advocate. Archived from
the original on 2024-06-06. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Newspapers.com.
The review notes: "Here is a shocking book: an expose of the "doctrines of demons," that have crept into our churches unaware. The number and prevalence of them is so high, I can't begin to discuss these departures from truth here. Without the adequate background of historical fact which the author provides, his claims would appear outrageous. For those who are eager seekers for truth; for those of every denomination and religion who really want to know, I recommend this book. The facts it presents—well documented by Christian and Secular sources alike demand examination."
-
Keating, Karl (1988).
Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians". San Francisco:
Ignatius Press. pp. 159–162.
ISBN
0-89870-177-5. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes: "Babylon Mystery Religion does not have much to say about sex; it is not prurient in the most common connotation of the word. It is prurient according to the other dictionary definition in that it satisfies restless cravings many people have. They want to believe there is a dark secret to Catholicism, and they want to be let in on the secret. They want to luxuriate in horror stories, and they want their worst suspicions confirmed. Woodrow's book shows that Catholicism's success has been due not to its merits, but to influence-peddling, fortuitous events, and underhanded dealings, even violence. It demonstrates that Catholicism is really something dark and alien to Christianity—something, in fact, connected with Christianity only tangentially, not essentially. Woodrow's thesis, which is not new to him, is that Catholicism's distinctive elements have not been derived from authentic Christianity. They are not legitimate developments, but wholesale borrowings from pre-Christian cults."
The book notes: "Babylon Mystery Religion is indebted to Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons, first published in 1853 and reprinted innumerable times since. In fact, Woodrow's book would not be described wrongly as a revised version of Hislop's. The argument is that things that distinguish Catholicism from Protestantism—such as the papacy, intercession of the saints, and purgatory—are really borrowings from ancient pagan religions. With sketches, photographs, woodcuts, and a host of one-liners, Woodrow attempts to show this. From Egyptian devotion to Isis, the reader is told, comes Catholic devotion to Mary, and from Buddhism comes the sign of the Cross. St. Bridget never existed, but was merely a replacement for a fertility goddess."
-
Olson, Carl E. (2003).
Will Catholics Be Left Behind: A Critique of the Rapture and Today's Prophecy Preachers. San Francisco:
Ignatius Press. p. 63.
ISBN
0-89870-950-4. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes in a footnote: "Perhaps the most damning indictment of Hislop's The Two Babylons: The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife (originally written in 1853–1858) is Ralph Woodrow's The Babylon Connection? (Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1997). In 1966 Woodrow wrote Babylon Mystery Religion Ancient and Modern (Riverside, Calif.: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1966), a reworking of Hislop's book. After some time passed, Woodrow did further study and saw that Hislop's book was seriously flawed and historically untenable. "As I [studied]," Woodrow admits, "it became clear—Hislop's 'history' was often only mythology. Even though myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths can not provide a sound basis for history. Take enough tribes, enough tales, enough time, jump from one time to another, from one country to another, pick and choose similarities—why anything could be 'proved'!" (from www.amazon.com). Woodrow then wrote The Babylon Connection? and admitted the errors of his first book. For a Catholic critique of both Hislop and Woodrow see Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), pp. 68–69, 159–63, 219–24."
- Less significant coverage:
-
Price, Robert M. (2007).
The Paperback Apocalypse: How the Christian Church Was Left Behind. Amherst, New York:
Prometheus Books. p. 281.
ISBN
978-1-59102-583-2. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
The book provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The book notes: "More than likely, Jenkins got the name from the title of an old, rabidly anti-Catholic book, Ralph Woodrow's Babylon Mystery Religion (1966)."
-
Price, Robert M. (2007).
The Paperback Apocalypse: How the Christian Church Was Left Behind. Amherst, New York:
Prometheus Books. p. 281.
ISBN
978-1-59102-583-2. Retrieved 2024-06-06 – via
Internet Archive.
- Keep: per Cunard's sources. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 12:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Per Cunard. Sufficient coverage to meet WP:NBOOK. ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 14:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.