- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. There's no doubt that there are sources which talk about this. The only question is whether they are independent, reliable sources. The consensus here seems to be that they are not -- RoySmith (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Ariel UFO incident
- Ariel UFO incident ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article has no reliable sources, and I doubt that any can be found; I certainly didn't find any with a web search.
The main source for this article is a website called ufoevidence.org, which copied an article from about.com (dead link). QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 11:21, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- I hate to say it, but this incident is very widely covered in books on ufology. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Spinning Spark 14:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- keep This is a fairly well known UFO incident, and it is even listed in: "list of reported ufo sightings" on wikipedia. I'm not sure
why this would be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinyam ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Zimbabwe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Paranormal-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Upon a review of sources posted by User:Spinningspark, this topic passes WP:N. NorthAmerica 1000 06:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- It is listed in Wikipedia (see year 1994):
List of reported UFO sightings — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
184.145.91.252 (
talk •
contribs) 10:06, 26 April 2014
- That is irrelevant to the deletion debate. We don't treat Wikipedia as a reliable source, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Spinning Spark 10:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Another credible source to support the article's validity:
[7] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
184.145.91.252 (
talk •
contribs) 10:06, 26 April 2014
- A couple of points on conventions here:
- Please sign your posts
- Please do not alter the posts of others as you did
here,
here and
here. I have reverted those edits. If you are user Shinyam, as I suspect you are, then you should log in before making such alterations. In any event, we would prefer you not to alter posts people have already replied to and instead make a new post. If you wish to retract something strike it through
like this. Spinning Spark 10:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- A couple of points on conventions here:
- Thanks for the tips. Newbie here. Shinyam ( talk) 11:25, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No sources other than UFO books/authors which are not
independent of the topic they are promoting. I could find no coverage by news sources that would make this incident notable. See
Voronezh UFO incident for an example of reliable, independent sourcing. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 12:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's not accurate. From
InfoTrac I got (not sure if the links will work, it's a paywalled site);
- Bronwynne Jooste, "US researcher causes stir with aliens probe", The Weekend Argus, p. 11, 13 September 2008.
- Tom Powell, "US film maker in city to probe UFO sightings", Cape Times, p. 4, 26 August 2008.
- Benjamin Bell, "Film takes closer look at African UFO `Sighting'", The Boston Herald, p. 20, 31 May 2009.
- ...and from
HighBeam Research (also paywalled, but you should get the lede text);
- Linda Matchan, "An out-of-this-world assignment", The Boston Globe, 7 June 2009.
- Another link [8] to the Cape Times article.
- A lot of this coverage is about John E. Mack's investigation into this incident (or the film subsequently made of it) and seems to be itself notable. By the way, if you are relying on Gnews to find news articles I think the archive search has become thorougly broken, it no longer seems to find anything other than recent material. I really do not believe there were no news items on Princess Diana between 1990 and 2009, which includes the year of her death. Spinning Spark 14:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's not accurate. From
InfoTrac I got (not sure if the links will work, it's a paywalled site);
- Your sources are about the film or the filmmaker. Do you have any sources that cover the alleged incident only - independently of the claims of the film or the filmmaker? - LuckyLouie ( talk) 14:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Let me explain a bit further. Our ostensible article concerns
extraordinary claims i.e. space aliens landed and spoke with schoolchildren, so we need to find objective, non-
fringe sources rather than the claims of Randy Nickerson and
John E. Mack that are associated with the promotion of a film. So far, I don't see evidence of notability for the "incident", but possibly for a film about it, and given that, it's possibly deserving of a paragraph at
John E. Mack. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 15:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the articles are about the film, but they also discuss the incident. For instance from the Cape Times;
During morning break on September 14 of that year, 62 schoolchildren between the ages of eight and 12 saw a strange craft land 150 metres from the Ariel School in Ruwa, from which two small beings emerged which were described as having "big eyes like rugby balls". The children's individual descriptions of the phenomenon were so similar that news of the sighting spread around the globe.
- I'm not going to go looking for reliable sources claiming this to be true. There won't be any because it is a heap of bollocks. That does not mean that the incident is not notable—it has still had a lot of coverage.
Spinning
Spark 15:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, I didn't mean we should find RS claiming it to be true. I meant we need RS showing in depth coverage of reports of the incident itself. If all we've got is sources describing it in relation to the promotion of a film from the filmmakers perspective, it's impossible to write an objective article about the incident itself. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 16:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's this article from Bulawayo News 24. They do mention Mack's visit but nothing about the film. Spinning Spark 17:02, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, I didn't mean we should find RS claiming it to be true. I meant we need RS showing in depth coverage of reports of the incident itself. If all we've got is sources describing it in relation to the promotion of a film from the filmmakers perspective, it's impossible to write an objective article about the incident itself. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 16:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment-While it could be interesting-you can't possibly have a page for everyone who claims to have seen a UFO-which of course they really are weather balloons really most of the time-which I heard a news story on why people tend to think at times the weather ballons are UFO's I don't remember what it was though. Iffy on this. Wgolf ( talk) 15:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete, possibly leaving a redirect. I removed the unreliable sources (e.g. YouTube videos and a loon website) and we're left with an interview with Cynthia Hind and a book by Cynthia Hind. Guy ( Help!) 21:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - User:JzG: did you see/read the sources listed above in this discussion? NorthAmerica 1000 12:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Lacks independent sourcing, notability. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 21:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Weak delete - there are some sources but I'm not sure they constitute (together) significant coverage in independent sources. Maybe they do, I dunno. All of the sources seem to have the same genesis and it's not really clear whether that's the kids or Hind. Stalwart 111 12:08, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. There's no doubt that there are sources which talk about this. The only question is whether they are independent, reliable sources. The consensus here seems to be that they are not -- RoySmith (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Ariel UFO incident
- Ariel UFO incident ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article has no reliable sources, and I doubt that any can be found; I certainly didn't find any with a web search.
The main source for this article is a website called ufoevidence.org, which copied an article from about.com (dead link). QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 11:21, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- I hate to say it, but this incident is very widely covered in books on ufology. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Spinning Spark 14:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- keep This is a fairly well known UFO incident, and it is even listed in: "list of reported ufo sightings" on wikipedia. I'm not sure
why this would be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shinyam ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Zimbabwe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Paranormal-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Upon a review of sources posted by User:Spinningspark, this topic passes WP:N. NorthAmerica 1000 06:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- It is listed in Wikipedia (see year 1994):
List of reported UFO sightings — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
184.145.91.252 (
talk •
contribs) 10:06, 26 April 2014
- That is irrelevant to the deletion debate. We don't treat Wikipedia as a reliable source, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Spinning Spark 10:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Another credible source to support the article's validity:
[7] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
184.145.91.252 (
talk •
contribs) 10:06, 26 April 2014
- A couple of points on conventions here:
- Please sign your posts
- Please do not alter the posts of others as you did
here,
here and
here. I have reverted those edits. If you are user Shinyam, as I suspect you are, then you should log in before making such alterations. In any event, we would prefer you not to alter posts people have already replied to and instead make a new post. If you wish to retract something strike it through
like this. Spinning Spark 10:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- A couple of points on conventions here:
- Thanks for the tips. Newbie here. Shinyam ( talk) 11:25, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No sources other than UFO books/authors which are not
independent of the topic they are promoting. I could find no coverage by news sources that would make this incident notable. See
Voronezh UFO incident for an example of reliable, independent sourcing. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 12:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's not accurate. From
InfoTrac I got (not sure if the links will work, it's a paywalled site);
- Bronwynne Jooste, "US researcher causes stir with aliens probe", The Weekend Argus, p. 11, 13 September 2008.
- Tom Powell, "US film maker in city to probe UFO sightings", Cape Times, p. 4, 26 August 2008.
- Benjamin Bell, "Film takes closer look at African UFO `Sighting'", The Boston Herald, p. 20, 31 May 2009.
- ...and from
HighBeam Research (also paywalled, but you should get the lede text);
- Linda Matchan, "An out-of-this-world assignment", The Boston Globe, 7 June 2009.
- Another link [8] to the Cape Times article.
- A lot of this coverage is about John E. Mack's investigation into this incident (or the film subsequently made of it) and seems to be itself notable. By the way, if you are relying on Gnews to find news articles I think the archive search has become thorougly broken, it no longer seems to find anything other than recent material. I really do not believe there were no news items on Princess Diana between 1990 and 2009, which includes the year of her death. Spinning Spark 14:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's not accurate. From
InfoTrac I got (not sure if the links will work, it's a paywalled site);
- Your sources are about the film or the filmmaker. Do you have any sources that cover the alleged incident only - independently of the claims of the film or the filmmaker? - LuckyLouie ( talk) 14:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Let me explain a bit further. Our ostensible article concerns
extraordinary claims i.e. space aliens landed and spoke with schoolchildren, so we need to find objective, non-
fringe sources rather than the claims of Randy Nickerson and
John E. Mack that are associated with the promotion of a film. So far, I don't see evidence of notability for the "incident", but possibly for a film about it, and given that, it's possibly deserving of a paragraph at
John E. Mack. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 15:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the articles are about the film, but they also discuss the incident. For instance from the Cape Times;
During morning break on September 14 of that year, 62 schoolchildren between the ages of eight and 12 saw a strange craft land 150 metres from the Ariel School in Ruwa, from which two small beings emerged which were described as having "big eyes like rugby balls". The children's individual descriptions of the phenomenon were so similar that news of the sighting spread around the globe.
- I'm not going to go looking for reliable sources claiming this to be true. There won't be any because it is a heap of bollocks. That does not mean that the incident is not notable—it has still had a lot of coverage.
Spinning
Spark 15:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, I didn't mean we should find RS claiming it to be true. I meant we need RS showing in depth coverage of reports of the incident itself. If all we've got is sources describing it in relation to the promotion of a film from the filmmakers perspective, it's impossible to write an objective article about the incident itself. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 16:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's this article from Bulawayo News 24. They do mention Mack's visit but nothing about the film. Spinning Spark 17:02, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, I didn't mean we should find RS claiming it to be true. I meant we need RS showing in depth coverage of reports of the incident itself. If all we've got is sources describing it in relation to the promotion of a film from the filmmakers perspective, it's impossible to write an objective article about the incident itself. -
LuckyLouie (
talk) 16:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment-While it could be interesting-you can't possibly have a page for everyone who claims to have seen a UFO-which of course they really are weather balloons really most of the time-which I heard a news story on why people tend to think at times the weather ballons are UFO's I don't remember what it was though. Iffy on this. Wgolf ( talk) 15:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete, possibly leaving a redirect. I removed the unreliable sources (e.g. YouTube videos and a loon website) and we're left with an interview with Cynthia Hind and a book by Cynthia Hind. Guy ( Help!) 21:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - User:JzG: did you see/read the sources listed above in this discussion? NorthAmerica 1000 12:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Lacks independent sourcing, notability. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 21:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Weak delete - there are some sources but I'm not sure they constitute (together) significant coverage in independent sources. Maybe they do, I dunno. All of the sources seem to have the same genesis and it's not really clear whether that's the kids or Hind. Stalwart 111 12:08, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.