- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. J04n( talk page) 11:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Amartithi
- Amartithi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I fail to see much notability of the subject and non-trivial significant coverage about it, except in the biographical hagiography of Meher Baba and self-sources.Trivial mentions in related books and very few news-pieces are located.But, since notability isn't inherited, seeking a redirect to Meher Baba.
Part of a walled garden around Meher Baba.Nukable mess.
This t/p thread may provide some background aspects on the issue. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:49, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:49, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, seriously? This seems like a major religious holiday for the followers of Meher Baba (and no, I am not one). The page is one of a large number of article put up for deletion by nominator in a seeming attempt to purge the topic of many of its pages. I would ask that the nominator remove all of these deletion attempts due to their reasoning and communicated bias against the topic. We have a good Meher Baba collection on Wikipedia, and there is certainly no reason to attempt to remove much of it other than
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 15:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks.Now, please provide the sources, since you've gladly forgot the main criterion of defending the notability of an article, at an AfD.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 15:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment:If the nominator's main criterion is simply the need of sources, then please retract from all your recent nominations the biased, agressive and sarcastic statements about walled gardens and nukable mess. Thank youi. Hoverfish Talk 19:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Also this link the nominator provides to the "backgound aspects on the issue" has ample evidence that the same is calling up other editors to gang up on these deletions.
Hoverfish
Talk 19:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nonsense.That was because SN54129 was the one to despatch the first article (about which you initiated a conversation on my t/p), to AfD. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks.Now, please provide the sources, since you've gladly forgot the main criterion of defending the notability of an article, at an AfD.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 15:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I do not follow any religious practices of any kind, I am no part of any group that does so either, but I do respect all the thousands of Meher Baba followers who chose to do so, as well as the millions who keep religious holidays of any religion. This article contains information about a major religious holiday observed by thousands of people.
Hoverfish
Talk 19:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP does not exist to respect thousands of religious followers.Even a religion/cult, with a lone follower ought to have an article, if sufficiently covered by independent media sources whilst one with lacs, without any coverage in RS would not deserve one.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the topic if not notable, how come and
asiantribune.com or
allevents.in or
loksatta.com mention it? Are they Baba affiliated too?
Hoverfish
Talk 19:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Allevents is nothing but a database of all events, festivals etc and fails to lend credence to notability.Since I'm not stating that the article is a hoax, there's no point in bringing that.Asian Tribune's editorial practices have been long debated at AfDs and is often guilty of PR-stuff.Loksatta is good enough but one piece of non-independent coverage do not maketh a standalone article. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the topic if not notable, how come and
asiantribune.com or
allevents.in or
loksatta.com mention it? Are they Baba affiliated too?
Hoverfish
Talk 19:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP does not exist to respect thousands of religious followers.Even a religion/cult, with a lone follower ought to have an article, if sufficiently covered by independent media sources whilst one with lacs, without any coverage in RS would not deserve one.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Closer note that Winged Blades says "Loksatta is good enough", and on top of the Asian Tribune information, this nomination should be considered null and void. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:55, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- @
Randy Kryn: The only person you are convincing is yourself, and maybe perhaps your pet goldfish.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nope, my pet goldfish is a deletionist, and recently did a number on one of the snails.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 16:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be surprised if your snail had a Meher Baba-related article written about it.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hmmmm, maybe. I have noticed it has been silent for years, and its credo is " Don't Worry, Be Happy", but I thought it was because of the funny green seaweed it's been making into underwater brownies. Randy Kryn ( talk) 16:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be surprised if your snail had a Meher Baba-related article written about it.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nope, my pet goldfish is a deletionist, and recently did a number on one of the snails.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 16:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- @
Randy Kryn: The only person you are convincing is yourself, and maybe perhaps your pet goldfish.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect Split usable content to
Meher Baba, blank and redirect. The article topic has no standalone notability. I also don't have any religious connection to the subject, although I do have a moustache.
Cesdeva
(talk) 19:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Absolutely concur. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect to Meher Baba per WP:NOTINHERITED. Not seeing any in-depth third-party sourcing sufficient to establish independent notability. GSS ( talk| c| em) 13:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Source added to the page, from the Asian Tribune. This reputable source "proves" that the event exists, is notable (people have been observing it for almost half-a-century), and that this nomination should be removed and the page kept as notable. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Many of these dozen or so coordinated Meher Baba-related AfDs I have agreed with. But it seems odd to remove a religious holiday observed by literally hundreds of thousands of people annually, and the main religious observance among Baba followers in America, England, Australia, and India. That actually does sound like religious discrimination. It is true one will not find much doing a Google Check. Baba himself forbade proselytizing, which is the main reason. But a check on YouTube will reveal thousands observing it. And any call to any Baba group or Center around the world (and I literally mean any) will reveal it is observed diligently. Note there is no celebration of Baba's birth. Amartithi is the "Christmas" of Baba followers the world over, even if it is done without outward fanfair and press. If anything, the article should eventually be expanded. The trouble is that only Baba followers care about their holidays and prayers, and they don't wind up in non-devotional material. Baba only died 49 years ago, and Amartithi (celebrating his death day) is a relatively new practice and limited, but due to its importance to a large religious group of importance in the New Religious Movements Wikipedia project, it has genuine value on Wikipedia. However, I do get the reasoning of saying it is not notable in print. So I'm fine with whatever the consensus is. Just giving some missing information so a good judgment can be made.
Dazedbythebell (
talk) 15:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- No bare-minimum amount of non-trivial coverage in sources.No notability.No article.As simple as that. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 17:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 17:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just added a source, a large article from the South Asian Tribune, added to lead sentence. This article sources much of the information on the page. There are many sources if you count books and articles and magazines which actually report on these topics, and at some point the weight of the accumulated sources would make this event real and notable to the people interested in such things. In any case, the South Asian Tribune and the Asian Tribune source added earlier amount to good independent sources, with the newest one a full story on the holiday. Randy Kryn ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- The South Asian Tribune piece isn't independent; 'Dictated Sunday, 13th December 2009' should give you a clue.
- WBoG addressed the Asian Tribune source above.
Cesdeva
(talk) 19:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wbog said it's been debated, not that it's an unusable reputable source. Did you read the in-depth article itself? Seems to be fine as a source. And wbog also said that an existing page source "Loksatta is good enough...". Good sources about a holiday celebrated worldwide are now on the page to prove that the holiday is real, has a history, and is notable.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 19:36, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- I did read it. It struck me as odd how the article ended with a direct exclamation from 'Bhau Kalchuri', rather than a conclusion by the writer. Also there's a couple of occasions where the writer verges on stating opinion as fact, such as 'dropped his body'. What's with the capitalisation of He, Him and Himself too?
- Wbog said it's been debated, not that it's an unusable reputable source. Did you read the in-depth article itself? Seems to be fine as a source. And wbog also said that an existing page source "Loksatta is good enough...". Good sources about a holiday celebrated worldwide are now on the page to prove that the holiday is real, has a history, and is notable.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 19:36, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- On face-value i'd agree it seems fine but some writing choices make me wonder whether the writer was connected to the subject.
- New source found. I don't know how good or ungood this source is, but here is a two-volume book/encyclopedia by J. Gordon Melton titled "Religious Celebrations" and in volume 2 page 577 it has a page on this "several-day commemoration": [1]. I don't think Melton is a Meher Baba follower, so this book is an "independent" source. Hoverfish Talk 21:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very good source,
Hoverfish.
J. Gordon Melton is a long-time expert of topics such as this, a notable religious scholar, and would be accepted as a reputable source (also see his
Encyclopedia of American Religions). Now the reference just has to be, if you haven't done it yet, added to the article, and I'd suggest moving your comment to the left as its own section, and linking Melton, so this good source isn't missed by commenting editors and the closer.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 21:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Done
Hoverfish
Talk 23:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very good source,
Hoverfish.
J. Gordon Melton is a long-time expert of topics such as this, a notable religious scholar, and would be accepted as a reputable source (also see his
Encyclopedia of American Religions). Now the reference just has to be, if you haven't done it yet, added to the article, and I'd suggest moving your comment to the left as its own section, and linking Melton, so this good source isn't missed by commenting editors and the closer.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 21:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. J04n( talk page) 11:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Amartithi
- Amartithi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I fail to see much notability of the subject and non-trivial significant coverage about it, except in the biographical hagiography of Meher Baba and self-sources.Trivial mentions in related books and very few news-pieces are located.But, since notability isn't inherited, seeking a redirect to Meher Baba.
Part of a walled garden around Meher Baba.Nukable mess.
This t/p thread may provide some background aspects on the issue. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:49, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:49, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, seriously? This seems like a major religious holiday for the followers of Meher Baba (and no, I am not one). The page is one of a large number of article put up for deletion by nominator in a seeming attempt to purge the topic of many of its pages. I would ask that the nominator remove all of these deletion attempts due to their reasoning and communicated bias against the topic. We have a good Meher Baba collection on Wikipedia, and there is certainly no reason to attempt to remove much of it other than
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 15:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks.Now, please provide the sources, since you've gladly forgot the main criterion of defending the notability of an article, at an AfD.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 15:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment:If the nominator's main criterion is simply the need of sources, then please retract from all your recent nominations the biased, agressive and sarcastic statements about walled gardens and nukable mess. Thank youi. Hoverfish Talk 19:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Also this link the nominator provides to the "backgound aspects on the issue" has ample evidence that the same is calling up other editors to gang up on these deletions.
Hoverfish
Talk 19:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nonsense.That was because SN54129 was the one to despatch the first article (about which you initiated a conversation on my t/p), to AfD. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks.Now, please provide the sources, since you've gladly forgot the main criterion of defending the notability of an article, at an AfD.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 15:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I do not follow any religious practices of any kind, I am no part of any group that does so either, but I do respect all the thousands of Meher Baba followers who chose to do so, as well as the millions who keep religious holidays of any religion. This article contains information about a major religious holiday observed by thousands of people.
Hoverfish
Talk 19:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP does not exist to respect thousands of religious followers.Even a religion/cult, with a lone follower ought to have an article, if sufficiently covered by independent media sources whilst one with lacs, without any coverage in RS would not deserve one.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the topic if not notable, how come and
asiantribune.com or
allevents.in or
loksatta.com mention it? Are they Baba affiliated too?
Hoverfish
Talk 19:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Allevents is nothing but a database of all events, festivals etc and fails to lend credence to notability.Since I'm not stating that the article is a hoax, there's no point in bringing that.Asian Tribune's editorial practices have been long debated at AfDs and is often guilty of PR-stuff.Loksatta is good enough but one piece of non-independent coverage do not maketh a standalone article. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the topic if not notable, how come and
asiantribune.com or
allevents.in or
loksatta.com mention it? Are they Baba affiliated too?
Hoverfish
Talk 19:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP does not exist to respect thousands of religious followers.Even a religion/cult, with a lone follower ought to have an article, if sufficiently covered by independent media sources whilst one with lacs, without any coverage in RS would not deserve one.
~ Winged Blades
Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Closer note that Winged Blades says "Loksatta is good enough", and on top of the Asian Tribune information, this nomination should be considered null and void. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:55, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- @
Randy Kryn: The only person you are convincing is yourself, and maybe perhaps your pet goldfish.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nope, my pet goldfish is a deletionist, and recently did a number on one of the snails.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 16:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be surprised if your snail had a Meher Baba-related article written about it.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hmmmm, maybe. I have noticed it has been silent for years, and its credo is " Don't Worry, Be Happy", but I thought it was because of the funny green seaweed it's been making into underwater brownies. Randy Kryn ( talk) 16:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be surprised if your snail had a Meher Baba-related article written about it.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nope, my pet goldfish is a deletionist, and recently did a number on one of the snails.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 16:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- @
Randy Kryn: The only person you are convincing is yourself, and maybe perhaps your pet goldfish.
Cesdeva
(talk) 16:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect Split usable content to
Meher Baba, blank and redirect. The article topic has no standalone notability. I also don't have any religious connection to the subject, although I do have a moustache.
Cesdeva
(talk) 19:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Absolutely concur. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect to Meher Baba per WP:NOTINHERITED. Not seeing any in-depth third-party sourcing sufficient to establish independent notability. GSS ( talk| c| em) 13:05, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Source added to the page, from the Asian Tribune. This reputable source "proves" that the event exists, is notable (people have been observing it for almost half-a-century), and that this nomination should be removed and the page kept as notable. Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Many of these dozen or so coordinated Meher Baba-related AfDs I have agreed with. But it seems odd to remove a religious holiday observed by literally hundreds of thousands of people annually, and the main religious observance among Baba followers in America, England, Australia, and India. That actually does sound like religious discrimination. It is true one will not find much doing a Google Check. Baba himself forbade proselytizing, which is the main reason. But a check on YouTube will reveal thousands observing it. And any call to any Baba group or Center around the world (and I literally mean any) will reveal it is observed diligently. Note there is no celebration of Baba's birth. Amartithi is the "Christmas" of Baba followers the world over, even if it is done without outward fanfair and press. If anything, the article should eventually be expanded. The trouble is that only Baba followers care about their holidays and prayers, and they don't wind up in non-devotional material. Baba only died 49 years ago, and Amartithi (celebrating his death day) is a relatively new practice and limited, but due to its importance to a large religious group of importance in the New Religious Movements Wikipedia project, it has genuine value on Wikipedia. However, I do get the reasoning of saying it is not notable in print. So I'm fine with whatever the consensus is. Just giving some missing information so a good judgment can be made.
Dazedbythebell (
talk) 15:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- No bare-minimum amount of non-trivial coverage in sources.No notability.No article.As simple as that. ~ Winged Blades Godric 04:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 17:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 17:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just added a source, a large article from the South Asian Tribune, added to lead sentence. This article sources much of the information on the page. There are many sources if you count books and articles and magazines which actually report on these topics, and at some point the weight of the accumulated sources would make this event real and notable to the people interested in such things. In any case, the South Asian Tribune and the Asian Tribune source added earlier amount to good independent sources, with the newest one a full story on the holiday. Randy Kryn ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- The South Asian Tribune piece isn't independent; 'Dictated Sunday, 13th December 2009' should give you a clue.
- WBoG addressed the Asian Tribune source above.
Cesdeva
(talk) 19:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wbog said it's been debated, not that it's an unusable reputable source. Did you read the in-depth article itself? Seems to be fine as a source. And wbog also said that an existing page source "Loksatta is good enough...". Good sources about a holiday celebrated worldwide are now on the page to prove that the holiday is real, has a history, and is notable.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 19:36, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- I did read it. It struck me as odd how the article ended with a direct exclamation from 'Bhau Kalchuri', rather than a conclusion by the writer. Also there's a couple of occasions where the writer verges on stating opinion as fact, such as 'dropped his body'. What's with the capitalisation of He, Him and Himself too?
- Wbog said it's been debated, not that it's an unusable reputable source. Did you read the in-depth article itself? Seems to be fine as a source. And wbog also said that an existing page source "Loksatta is good enough...". Good sources about a holiday celebrated worldwide are now on the page to prove that the holiday is real, has a history, and is notable.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 19:36, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- On face-value i'd agree it seems fine but some writing choices make me wonder whether the writer was connected to the subject.
- New source found. I don't know how good or ungood this source is, but here is a two-volume book/encyclopedia by J. Gordon Melton titled "Religious Celebrations" and in volume 2 page 577 it has a page on this "several-day commemoration": [1]. I don't think Melton is a Meher Baba follower, so this book is an "independent" source. Hoverfish Talk 21:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very good source,
Hoverfish.
J. Gordon Melton is a long-time expert of topics such as this, a notable religious scholar, and would be accepted as a reputable source (also see his
Encyclopedia of American Religions). Now the reference just has to be, if you haven't done it yet, added to the article, and I'd suggest moving your comment to the left as its own section, and linking Melton, so this good source isn't missed by commenting editors and the closer.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 21:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC) Done
Hoverfish
Talk 23:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very good source,
Hoverfish.
J. Gordon Melton is a long-time expert of topics such as this, a notable religious scholar, and would be accepted as a reputable source (also see his
Encyclopedia of American Religions). Now the reference just has to be, if you haven't done it yet, added to the article, and I'd suggest moving your comment to the left as its own section, and linking Melton, so this good source isn't missed by commenting editors and the closer.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 21:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.