- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Sustained coverage found by Left guide during the discussion has led to a rough consensus, with multiple editors flipping to !vote keep. (non-admin closure) Schminnte [ talk to me 23:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
2023 Karachi mall fire
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- 2023 Karachi mall fire ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable electrical fire, does not meet WP:EVENT. Natg 19 ( talk) 20:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Events and
Pakistan.
Natg 19 (
talk)
20:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep : While it may not be a notable event anymore, the article can still be improved upon. Rager7 ( talk) 01:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep So long as we continue to apply WP:NOTNEWS as narrowly as we do…the article seems to pass GNG and as it was in a non-Western (but somewhat Anglophone) country I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt notability-wise.
- If it had happened in Miami, would it be up for deletion? I don’t know. But looking at it cursorily, a bit of expansion would help. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 22:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Delete: I don't see this as having the WP:LASTING impact required by WP:EVENTCRIT. Owen× ☎ 23:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)- Keep: changed from Delete based on recent coverage found by Left guide, which invalidates my earlier WP:LASTING argument. The administrative attention this is now getting also suggests it will result in regulatory amendments to electrical or building codes. Owen× ☎ 23:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Delete. Tragic occurrance, but fails WP:EVENTCRIT. Tails Wx 02:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Keep per the references found below by Left guide, coverage is persistent. ~ Tails Wx 20:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)- Delete to the WP:LASTING notes above, I'd add WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:DEPTH and WP:PERSISTENCE, all of which are lacking. For RadioactiveBoulevardier's objections above, I'd say that the tide of ill-advised AfD conclusions that go against policy are lamentable, but should not be used as a reason to keep something that does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NEVENT. If it happened in Miami and had the same sourcing, I'd !vote the exactly same way (and have on the plethora of news events like yet another mass shooting that similarly lacks DEPTH and EFFECT). Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 16:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Weak keep I feel like if an event happened in the US of this scale, it would be SNOW kept at AFD. We have to be wary of systematic bias on Wikipedia.
166.198.251.71 (
talk)
23:50, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- You may very well be right. There is, indeed, a systematic bias at play, but it is external to Wikipedia. Secondary sources - news, in this case - is biased in favour of covering Western world events. And since we here on Wikipedia are bound by the requirement to base our content on secondary sources, we end up with more coverage for events in the Western world whether we choose to or not. It's an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of compiling an encyclopedia that isn't based on original research. Owen× ☎ 23:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, just within the past few days, WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE of the fire has emerged regarding three people arrested for sabotaging evidence, wiring and electrical safety, fire safety, and the police investigation. Left guide ( talk) 08:26, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:45, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is just about a consensus for delete here, although Left guide's comment needs to be responded to/refuted for that consensus to be strong enough to close as delete. Alternatively additional support for their view may lead to a no consensus closure. Final relist to hopefully reach a consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 23:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment -- The new sourcing found by Left guide does include one excellent WP:SECONDARY reference, as the Express-Tribune article has some WP:DEPTH and analytical, non-primary content. The remaining sources, including the original cites, are still WP:PRIMARYNEWS. They are not continued WP:SIGCOV or WP:PERSISTENCE, just routine news announcements that report on a new development. That one secondary source is strong, however, but it's a very tenuous peg on which to hang this article, especially without any WP:GEOSCOPE. Without more such sourcing – or, even better, if they enact one or more of the recommendations specified in the Express-Tribune piece to satisfy WP:LASTING – I maintain that the article still does not pass WP:NEVENT. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 20:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Update: Sometime within the past 24 hours, CCTV footage of the fire surfaced, and this has been widely reported by Urdu sources. Left guide ( talk) 21:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep With almost a dozen deaths and continued coverage, it would be best to revisit this article after a long time. CharlesWain ( talk) 10:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Sustained coverage found by Left guide during the discussion has led to a rough consensus, with multiple editors flipping to !vote keep. (non-admin closure) Schminnte [ talk to me 23:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
2023 Karachi mall fire
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- 2023 Karachi mall fire ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable electrical fire, does not meet WP:EVENT. Natg 19 ( talk) 20:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Events and
Pakistan.
Natg 19 (
talk)
20:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep : While it may not be a notable event anymore, the article can still be improved upon. Rager7 ( talk) 01:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep So long as we continue to apply WP:NOTNEWS as narrowly as we do…the article seems to pass GNG and as it was in a non-Western (but somewhat Anglophone) country I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt notability-wise.
- If it had happened in Miami, would it be up for deletion? I don’t know. But looking at it cursorily, a bit of expansion would help. RadioactiveBoulevardier ( talk) 22:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Delete: I don't see this as having the WP:LASTING impact required by WP:EVENTCRIT. Owen× ☎ 23:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)- Keep: changed from Delete based on recent coverage found by Left guide, which invalidates my earlier WP:LASTING argument. The administrative attention this is now getting also suggests it will result in regulatory amendments to electrical or building codes. Owen× ☎ 23:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Delete. Tragic occurrance, but fails WP:EVENTCRIT. Tails Wx 02:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Keep per the references found below by Left guide, coverage is persistent. ~ Tails Wx 20:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)- Delete to the WP:LASTING notes above, I'd add WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:DEPTH and WP:PERSISTENCE, all of which are lacking. For RadioactiveBoulevardier's objections above, I'd say that the tide of ill-advised AfD conclusions that go against policy are lamentable, but should not be used as a reason to keep something that does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NEVENT. If it happened in Miami and had the same sourcing, I'd !vote the exactly same way (and have on the plethora of news events like yet another mass shooting that similarly lacks DEPTH and EFFECT). Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 16:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- Weak keep I feel like if an event happened in the US of this scale, it would be SNOW kept at AFD. We have to be wary of systematic bias on Wikipedia.
166.198.251.71 (
talk)
23:50, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
- You may very well be right. There is, indeed, a systematic bias at play, but it is external to Wikipedia. Secondary sources - news, in this case - is biased in favour of covering Western world events. And since we here on Wikipedia are bound by the requirement to base our content on secondary sources, we end up with more coverage for events in the Western world whether we choose to or not. It's an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of compiling an encyclopedia that isn't based on original research. Owen× ☎ 23:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, just within the past few days, WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE of the fire has emerged regarding three people arrested for sabotaging evidence, wiring and electrical safety, fire safety, and the police investigation. Left guide ( talk) 08:26, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:45, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is just about a consensus for delete here, although Left guide's comment needs to be responded to/refuted for that consensus to be strong enough to close as delete. Alternatively additional support for their view may lead to a no consensus closure. Final relist to hopefully reach a consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 23:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment -- The new sourcing found by Left guide does include one excellent WP:SECONDARY reference, as the Express-Tribune article has some WP:DEPTH and analytical, non-primary content. The remaining sources, including the original cites, are still WP:PRIMARYNEWS. They are not continued WP:SIGCOV or WP:PERSISTENCE, just routine news announcements that report on a new development. That one secondary source is strong, however, but it's a very tenuous peg on which to hang this article, especially without any WP:GEOSCOPE. Without more such sourcing – or, even better, if they enact one or more of the recommendations specified in the Express-Tribune piece to satisfy WP:LASTING – I maintain that the article still does not pass WP:NEVENT. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 20:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Update: Sometime within the past 24 hours, CCTV footage of the fire surfaced, and this has been widely reported by Urdu sources. Left guide ( talk) 21:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep With almost a dozen deaths and continued coverage, it would be best to revisit this article after a long time. CharlesWain ( talk) 10:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.