- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Closing early per WP:SNOW, given that there is no support for deletion. Sandstein 07:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- 2023 Hollywood labor disputes ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There is no broad labor dispute here. There are two separate strikes. If the Directors Guild of America were to strike, then an article like this would be sufficient, but they aren't. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I created (and was planing to build on) this because several people felt it was a good idea on
Talk:2023 Writers Guild of America strike/Archive 1#Requested move 13 July 2023. I still believe its a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
23:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- And I agree 100% with it. The OP didn't have any involvement in that discussion apart from being mentioned as the creator of the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike page. So, I find this AfD to not only be wrongheaded, but misplaced, considering the OP hasn't even participated in the other discussion at all. Historyday01 ( talk) 00:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Further comment So far this is not my best work but I have tried to make a bit of a skeleton that we can build on. I've included mentions of the background issues and how not only the two specific unions are having issues with recent developments, and some commentary/comparisions with other labor movements. Many of the articles have way more information and a lot more can be extracted and added from them, but I am very tired and have to go asleep now so this will be it for me tonight.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I would say it is a good first start and there is definitely more that can be added. Have a good sleep! Thanks for starting this article. Historyday01 ( talk) 01:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- As I said time and again in AfD discussions like this one, deletion is not a substitute for editing! Please resolve this through a discussion on the talk page, not through this wrongheaded and unnecessary AfD. Please withdraw this AfD and stop wasting people's time. So, yes, KEEP. Historyday01 ( talk) 00:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Procedural keep. Nomination is hasty and rationale doesn't even address the intent of the articles purpose, which is to create an umbrella article to summarize the overlap in concerns and time between the two distinct strikes, then the two strikes are positioned as sub-articles—which is clearly stated in the discussion that led to the article creation and is stated in the nominated stub (which was actively marked as under construction). Nomination is disruptive as it hasn't even allowed the article to leave the {{
under construction}} tag. At least let the article settle first. ~Cheers,
Ten
Ton
Parasol
00:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is nothing to state about these two strikes that can't go in that respective article. This article is going to be a duplicate of those two. The better option would have been to create a disambiguation page.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
00:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree fully, it is very clear that these strikes are the result of common issues in the industry that does not only affect the persons who are on strike right now. An article that shows an overview of that feels like a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and that's why
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike mentions the background to
2023 Writers Guild of America strike. Articles are not essays, personal or academic.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
01:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, but to do this when the article is in its early stages isn't really fair to the person who is working on it. Also, you didn't even cite a policy reason for the AfD. This AfD sticks to high heavens.
Historyday01 (
talk)
01:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- AfD discussions do not need policies to be cited to be AfD discussions. StarTrekker is free to continue working on the article for as long as they would like and if there is significant coverage then this article has earned the right to mainspace. For what it's worth, Hollywood itself is experiencing a "summer of strikes". It might then be valuable to have an article on that, but the coverage of that topic is very limited.
- In reviewing this article, the first subsection of the "Development" section is something that's already addressed in the SAG-AFTRA article and what's missing could be added if reliably sourced. The fourth subsection is only relevant to SAG-AFTRA. I don't see how this warrants a separate article. The title suggests a grander dispute than what is present in the article while ignoring Writers Guild of America East and the actors striking from outside of Hollywood. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, but to do this when the article is in its early stages isn't really fair to the person who is working on it. Also, you didn't even cite a policy reason for the AfD. This AfD sticks to high heavens.
Historyday01 (
talk)
01:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and that's why
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike mentions the background to
2023 Writers Guild of America strike. Articles are not essays, personal or academic.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
01:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree fully, it is very clear that these strikes are the result of common issues in the industry that does not only affect the persons who are on strike right now. An article that shows an overview of that feels like a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is nothing to state about these two strikes that can't go in that respective article. This article is going to be a duplicate of those two. The better option would have been to create a disambiguation page.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
00:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Poor nomination that is based on opinion rather than actual policy. Two labor unions or three is subjective, not policy-based. This nomination was done very hastily without giving the creator the chance to flesh out the article. Noah Talk 02:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Nomination is premature and was not based on an actual Wikipedia policy or guideline that would warrant deletion. The fact that the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes are separate strikes does not make them unrelated. Reviewing sources from
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike (where there are more sources about the start of the SAG-AFTRA strike), 27 of 37 sources mention the WGA strike, 12 call the SAG-AFTRA strike "joint" (in the layman, unofficial sense of the term) with the WGA. There is a clear connection between the two, and the two strikes as a unit can stand on its own notability. Assessment on article content would be premature; the article has a very clear and obvious {{
under construction}} tag. Arguably, the AfD tag on the page will begin to discourage editors from improving or adding into the article. TenTonParasol is correct with this: this is meant to be an umbrella article, not a standalone one. In such case, duplication is a given; this is expected for umbrella articles which follow
Wikipedia:Summary style. The existence of
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike and the inclusion of the WGA strike as background does not preclude the existence of this article. Concerns on article title can be addressed with a page move, not article deletion.
Chlod (
say hi!)
04:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- To support the "premature" claim: this AfD was filed a mere three minutes after creation. Any reasonable user would wait for the article to be completed before filing an AfD. Even WP:DRAFTIFY tells users to wait at least an hour before draftifying new pages; the same standard should apply to AfDs. This isn't a BLP, after all. Chlod ( say hi!) 04:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, of course. This article addresses the issues I listed in
Talk:2023 Writers Guild of America strike and will be able to summarize the similarities and crossovers between the two strikes. This way, each article can completely focus on the individual strikes while this article focuses on the broad industry-level issues which led to the strikes and how they operate in collaboration with each other.
RobotGoggles (
talk)
04:41, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The articles already cover said broad industry-level issues. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 07:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Obvious Keep. I have no idea why someone would think deleting this article is even close to appropriate. It's a topic with obvious notability and there's a consensus to create it over at the merge discussion on the WGA strike article's talk page. Loki ( talk) 04:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The subject is very obviously notable, so deleting this article would be rather foolish. —
theMainLogan (
t•
c)
05:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The issue is not that the subject is not notable. The issue is that this is a useless page that duplicates content that is already covered in other pages. This is not a situation where there are hundreds of organizations striking in Hollywood and a subset deserve their own page. The notable strikes make up the entire coverage. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now Since the strike by the actors began so recently, this seems like a violation of WP:RAPID. While an article like this could have too much duplication of the other articles, it could be warranted as an overview of those articles. It’s too soon to tell. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 06:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. It's been more than six decades since SAG and the WGA had overlapping strikes, and there will absolutely be collaboration between SAG-AFTRA and the WGA during picketing and negotiations. -- Anonymouseditor2k19 ( talk) 07:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Closing early per WP:SNOW, given that there is no support for deletion. Sandstein 07:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- 2023 Hollywood labor disputes ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There is no broad labor dispute here. There are two separate strikes. If the Directors Guild of America were to strike, then an article like this would be sufficient, but they aren't. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I created (and was planing to build on) this because several people felt it was a good idea on
Talk:2023 Writers Guild of America strike/Archive 1#Requested move 13 July 2023. I still believe its a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
23:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- And I agree 100% with it. The OP didn't have any involvement in that discussion apart from being mentioned as the creator of the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike page. So, I find this AfD to not only be wrongheaded, but misplaced, considering the OP hasn't even participated in the other discussion at all. Historyday01 ( talk) 00:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Further comment So far this is not my best work but I have tried to make a bit of a skeleton that we can build on. I've included mentions of the background issues and how not only the two specific unions are having issues with recent developments, and some commentary/comparisions with other labor movements. Many of the articles have way more information and a lot more can be extracted and added from them, but I am very tired and have to go asleep now so this will be it for me tonight.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I would say it is a good first start and there is definitely more that can be added. Have a good sleep! Thanks for starting this article. Historyday01 ( talk) 01:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- As I said time and again in AfD discussions like this one, deletion is not a substitute for editing! Please resolve this through a discussion on the talk page, not through this wrongheaded and unnecessary AfD. Please withdraw this AfD and stop wasting people's time. So, yes, KEEP. Historyday01 ( talk) 00:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Procedural keep. Nomination is hasty and rationale doesn't even address the intent of the articles purpose, which is to create an umbrella article to summarize the overlap in concerns and time between the two distinct strikes, then the two strikes are positioned as sub-articles—which is clearly stated in the discussion that led to the article creation and is stated in the nominated stub (which was actively marked as under construction). Nomination is disruptive as it hasn't even allowed the article to leave the {{
under construction}} tag. At least let the article settle first. ~Cheers,
Ten
Ton
Parasol
00:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is nothing to state about these two strikes that can't go in that respective article. This article is going to be a duplicate of those two. The better option would have been to create a disambiguation page.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
00:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree fully, it is very clear that these strikes are the result of common issues in the industry that does not only affect the persons who are on strike right now. An article that shows an overview of that feels like a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and that's why
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike mentions the background to
2023 Writers Guild of America strike. Articles are not essays, personal or academic.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
01:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, but to do this when the article is in its early stages isn't really fair to the person who is working on it. Also, you didn't even cite a policy reason for the AfD. This AfD sticks to high heavens.
Historyday01 (
talk)
01:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- AfD discussions do not need policies to be cited to be AfD discussions. StarTrekker is free to continue working on the article for as long as they would like and if there is significant coverage then this article has earned the right to mainspace. For what it's worth, Hollywood itself is experiencing a "summer of strikes". It might then be valuable to have an article on that, but the coverage of that topic is very limited.
- In reviewing this article, the first subsection of the "Development" section is something that's already addressed in the SAG-AFTRA article and what's missing could be added if reliably sourced. The fourth subsection is only relevant to SAG-AFTRA. I don't see how this warrants a separate article. The title suggests a grander dispute than what is present in the article while ignoring Writers Guild of America East and the actors striking from outside of Hollywood. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, but to do this when the article is in its early stages isn't really fair to the person who is working on it. Also, you didn't even cite a policy reason for the AfD. This AfD sticks to high heavens.
Historyday01 (
talk)
01:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and that's why
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike mentions the background to
2023 Writers Guild of America strike. Articles are not essays, personal or academic.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
01:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree fully, it is very clear that these strikes are the result of common issues in the industry that does not only affect the persons who are on strike right now. An article that shows an overview of that feels like a good idea.
★Trekker (
talk)
01:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is nothing to state about these two strikes that can't go in that respective article. This article is going to be a duplicate of those two. The better option would have been to create a disambiguation page.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)
00:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Poor nomination that is based on opinion rather than actual policy. Two labor unions or three is subjective, not policy-based. This nomination was done very hastily without giving the creator the chance to flesh out the article. Noah Talk 02:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Nomination is premature and was not based on an actual Wikipedia policy or guideline that would warrant deletion. The fact that the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes are separate strikes does not make them unrelated. Reviewing sources from
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike (where there are more sources about the start of the SAG-AFTRA strike), 27 of 37 sources mention the WGA strike, 12 call the SAG-AFTRA strike "joint" (in the layman, unofficial sense of the term) with the WGA. There is a clear connection between the two, and the two strikes as a unit can stand on its own notability. Assessment on article content would be premature; the article has a very clear and obvious {{
under construction}} tag. Arguably, the AfD tag on the page will begin to discourage editors from improving or adding into the article. TenTonParasol is correct with this: this is meant to be an umbrella article, not a standalone one. In such case, duplication is a given; this is expected for umbrella articles which follow
Wikipedia:Summary style. The existence of
2023 SAG-AFTRA strike and the inclusion of the WGA strike as background does not preclude the existence of this article. Concerns on article title can be addressed with a page move, not article deletion.
Chlod (
say hi!)
04:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- To support the "premature" claim: this AfD was filed a mere three minutes after creation. Any reasonable user would wait for the article to be completed before filing an AfD. Even WP:DRAFTIFY tells users to wait at least an hour before draftifying new pages; the same standard should apply to AfDs. This isn't a BLP, after all. Chlod ( say hi!) 04:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, of course. This article addresses the issues I listed in
Talk:2023 Writers Guild of America strike and will be able to summarize the similarities and crossovers between the two strikes. This way, each article can completely focus on the individual strikes while this article focuses on the broad industry-level issues which led to the strikes and how they operate in collaboration with each other.
RobotGoggles (
talk)
04:41, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The articles already cover said broad industry-level issues. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 07:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Obvious Keep. I have no idea why someone would think deleting this article is even close to appropriate. It's a topic with obvious notability and there's a consensus to create it over at the merge discussion on the WGA strike article's talk page. Loki ( talk) 04:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The subject is very obviously notable, so deleting this article would be rather foolish. —
theMainLogan (
t•
c)
05:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The issue is not that the subject is not notable. The issue is that this is a useless page that duplicates content that is already covered in other pages. This is not a situation where there are hundreds of organizations striking in Hollywood and a subset deserve their own page. The notable strikes make up the entire coverage. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now Since the strike by the actors began so recently, this seems like a violation of WP:RAPID. While an article like this could have too much duplication of the other articles, it could be warranted as an overview of those articles. It’s too soon to tell. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 06:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. It's been more than six decades since SAG and the WGA had overlapping strikes, and there will absolutely be collaboration between SAG-AFTRA and the WGA during picketing and negotiations. -- Anonymouseditor2k19 ( talk) 07:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.