The result was no consensus. While the deletes outnumber the keeps by a small margin, there doesn't seem to be a strong enough consensus to justify any definitive action with this article. Both sides have compelling arguments. Additionally, the incident happened very recently, and new information is still coming out about it. This article was created on the day of the incident, and the AfD was started 8 hours after the article was created (which is discouraged by WP:RAPID for this very reason). There will be a better opportunity for a stronger consensus to emerge after the dust settles. If there are still concerns about the article, I'd suggest renominating in a month or two. ‑Scottywong | squeal _ 23:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Article about a recent stabbing. No indication that it will receive WP:SUSTAINED coverage or have any enduring encyclopedic value. Likely fails WP:EVENT, WP:GEOSCOPE, and WP:PERSISTENCE.- Mr X 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC) - Mr X 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Note to closer: if you choose delete, please remember to delete the edit notice.El_C 23:49, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
News article in Wikipedia
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The attack occurred at about 1:00 pm April 14, 2017, as a knife-welding man stabbed a 23 years old British tourist. An off-duty police officer riding the light rail pulled an emergency brake and tackled the perpetrator, who was then arrested.
According to Israel's domestic security service, Shin Bet, the attacker was known to the authorities and this may have been a “suicide by soldier,” a phenomenon seen in other incidents in the last 18 months, "in which a Palestinian suffering from mental health or personal issues has chosen to carry out an attack as a way out of his problems." Stabbing attacks were rare in Israel in 2017, although there was a spate of them in the fall of 2015 and early 2016. The attack took place as crowds of pilgrims form around Israel and the world gathered in the center of Jerusalem ot celebrate Good Friday.[5] The attacker was Gamil Tamimi (57), a Palestinian Arab from the Ras al-Amud neighborhood of East Jerusalem who was known to security services had recently been released from a mental health facility where he was treated for attempted suicide. In 2011 Tamimi was convicted of molesting his daughter. Hannah Bladon, a 21-year-old student in Israel on an exchange program from the University of Birmingham was killed in the attack. Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu said: "Radical Islamic terrorism is striking world capitals. Regretfully, terrorism struck today in Israel's capital – Jerusalem." Israeli President Reuven Rivlin said “The bitter news of the young woman’s death in a terror attack in Jerusalem fills me with deep sorrow.” Mark Regev Israeli ambassador to the UK, said: “My thoughts are with the family and friends of UK student Hannah Bladon, who was murdered in a senseless act of terror in Jerusalem today." |
'it is not our place to judge why others consider this noteworthy'.
Apart from that, there was a brief bit of news coverage in mid 2016 when the attacker was sentenced.None of the mentions in the books you cited are of any significance: they don't discuss the attack in any sort of detail (only a sentence or two). That does not count as "ongoing coverage". This is because the attack has had no lasting effect, just as I said. Your numbers are also wrong: the typical pageviews are about 500 a month, except for some spikes around mid 2016, and one during the recent Parliament attack. Look at the daily chart here: the typical daily pageviews are less than 20 a day. I don't know if readers find them "useful", and I am rather ambivalent about the whole matter, but Wikipedia should stop pretending that WP:NOTNEWS is policy, because it clearly is not. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
May I suggest that some of the participants on this page give it a rest? I count about 18 comments from E.M.Gregory, 13 comments from Nishidani and 10 comments from Icewhiz. I think you have all made your points pretty well. From my experience, I can say with a pretty high probability that you're all wasting your breath anyway. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:30, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
media coverage can confer notability on a high-profile criminal act, provided such coverage meets the above guidelines and those regarding reliable sourcesand WP:Notability per;
"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material. Just some of the many different available sources; CNN, ABC News which also links to multiple other sources including BBC, the Sydney Morning Herald, etc, etc. Many many Israli sources including Times of Israel. All of these have provided more than a simple one paragraph repeat of every other source. There's also more minor mentions like this one in the WashingtonPost. To put this a little further, there's a requirement for reliability which should be self-evidently met, but, look at the sources for yourself. Sources are both secondary and independent of the subject. Now, this gives it presumed notability which is not the same as notability as some would be quick to point out. Because of that, it makes sense to address some of the arguments for deleting the article presented above.
This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable. Same crystalballing being applied as the first argument. But, again, the argument to keep is crystalballing in the opposite direction. Argument 3 - WP:GEOSCOPE; obviously does not apply given international coverage due to death of British student. This is not local news, its gone international. Argument 4 - WP:NOTNEWS;
... editors are encouraged ... and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. There's no guideline or policy on what constitutes "significant", but, there are a couple of essays on it that really don't do anything to help (e.g. WP:SIGNIFICANT and WP:CCSI). I think WP:DIVERSE applies here and that it suffices to establish significance per;
Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notablewhich of course if this is being reported in Israeli, US, British, Australian and even German sources is more than enough to meet "diverse". These sources aren't just word for word repeats of each other either, but, they do cover the same general gist of what has happened. Argument 5 -
An unfortunate bias exists here where any attack on a non-Arab by an Arab is considered notable but, for the most part, it doesn't work the other way around. That is a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument of
Delete We do not have an article on y, so we should not have an article on this. In this case, that is not a credible argument for deleting. Lastly I'll tackle WP:NOT#NEWSREPORTS; again, this does not apply. It has nothing to do with;
routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Other than that there are quite a few more delete arguments which are "per somebody else".
Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article. To extend this back to "Murder of", persistence is met if at least some of the following happens;
Some factors that may lead to a murder being notable include a large volume of coverage beyond the local area of its occurrence and continuing for a lengthy period of time thereafter, a highly publicized investigation or trial, an article about the case in a magazine long after the case has been closed, coverage on a TV series, a movie or documentary being made about the case, a new forensic technique being used to solve the crime, a law being passed as a result of the crime, or other lasting effects. I've emphasized one point which has already been met. The trial is already being lightly publicized;
fit to stand for trial. Whether or not the trial itself gets any attention is a matter for when the trial comes along. It's still in the news cycle and may or may not be as notable in a week, month, or year from now. My feeling on this is that while it won't be a huge deal it already is more than a minor local affair. I think because of this, the article merits inclusion on the encyclopaedia. Side-issue; There is a lot of, to be honest, useless nonsense written above that is entirely distracting from the issue. I have to endorse Kingsidian's comment about "giving it a rest". Mr rnddude ( talk) 11:20, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I ask you to at least consider whether this article is being judged by different standards- I would say that this question would only be relevant if those also went to AfD and the same editors opined in a clearly different way. I've only gone through the first two on the list, which do not look to have gone to AfD, and which likely should go to AfD. Neither the Munich nor Reutlingen articles contain any indication of lasting coverage whatsoever. Brief mentions in lists, the obvious update upon sentencing, and that's it. All of the citations otherwise come from within a week of the event. Perhaps the reason it's easier to form an opinion on this one is that there is an obvious merge target (though there may be for the others, too -- I haven't looked yet). If you think that I have different standards or that another editor exhibits different standards for evaluating notability, it may be worth bringing up, but as this stands, it's a textbook WP:OTHERSTUFF argument. Responding to the direction of this sub-thread since E.M.Greegory's initial question, I don't know why fatal/non-fatal, multiple/single distinctions matter in terms of evaluating notability, aside from to say that they are indications of the only thing that actually matters -- that the events receive significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject over a period of time. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Off-topic bickering unrelated to the AfD |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The result was no consensus. While the deletes outnumber the keeps by a small margin, there doesn't seem to be a strong enough consensus to justify any definitive action with this article. Both sides have compelling arguments. Additionally, the incident happened very recently, and new information is still coming out about it. This article was created on the day of the incident, and the AfD was started 8 hours after the article was created (which is discouraged by WP:RAPID for this very reason). There will be a better opportunity for a stronger consensus to emerge after the dust settles. If there are still concerns about the article, I'd suggest renominating in a month or two. ‑Scottywong | squeal _ 23:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Article about a recent stabbing. No indication that it will receive WP:SUSTAINED coverage or have any enduring encyclopedic value. Likely fails WP:EVENT, WP:GEOSCOPE, and WP:PERSISTENCE.- Mr X 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC) - Mr X 20:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Note to closer: if you choose delete, please remember to delete the edit notice.El_C 23:49, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
News article in Wikipedia
|
---|
The attack occurred at about 1:00 pm April 14, 2017, as a knife-welding man stabbed a 23 years old British tourist. An off-duty police officer riding the light rail pulled an emergency brake and tackled the perpetrator, who was then arrested.
According to Israel's domestic security service, Shin Bet, the attacker was known to the authorities and this may have been a “suicide by soldier,” a phenomenon seen in other incidents in the last 18 months, "in which a Palestinian suffering from mental health or personal issues has chosen to carry out an attack as a way out of his problems." Stabbing attacks were rare in Israel in 2017, although there was a spate of them in the fall of 2015 and early 2016. The attack took place as crowds of pilgrims form around Israel and the world gathered in the center of Jerusalem ot celebrate Good Friday.[5] The attacker was Gamil Tamimi (57), a Palestinian Arab from the Ras al-Amud neighborhood of East Jerusalem who was known to security services had recently been released from a mental health facility where he was treated for attempted suicide. In 2011 Tamimi was convicted of molesting his daughter. Hannah Bladon, a 21-year-old student in Israel on an exchange program from the University of Birmingham was killed in the attack. Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu said: "Radical Islamic terrorism is striking world capitals. Regretfully, terrorism struck today in Israel's capital – Jerusalem." Israeli President Reuven Rivlin said “The bitter news of the young woman’s death in a terror attack in Jerusalem fills me with deep sorrow.” Mark Regev Israeli ambassador to the UK, said: “My thoughts are with the family and friends of UK student Hannah Bladon, who was murdered in a senseless act of terror in Jerusalem today." |
'it is not our place to judge why others consider this noteworthy'.
Apart from that, there was a brief bit of news coverage in mid 2016 when the attacker was sentenced.None of the mentions in the books you cited are of any significance: they don't discuss the attack in any sort of detail (only a sentence or two). That does not count as "ongoing coverage". This is because the attack has had no lasting effect, just as I said. Your numbers are also wrong: the typical pageviews are about 500 a month, except for some spikes around mid 2016, and one during the recent Parliament attack. Look at the daily chart here: the typical daily pageviews are less than 20 a day. I don't know if readers find them "useful", and I am rather ambivalent about the whole matter, but Wikipedia should stop pretending that WP:NOTNEWS is policy, because it clearly is not. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
May I suggest that some of the participants on this page give it a rest? I count about 18 comments from E.M.Gregory, 13 comments from Nishidani and 10 comments from Icewhiz. I think you have all made your points pretty well. From my experience, I can say with a pretty high probability that you're all wasting your breath anyway. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:30, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
media coverage can confer notability on a high-profile criminal act, provided such coverage meets the above guidelines and those regarding reliable sourcesand WP:Notability per;
"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material. Just some of the many different available sources; CNN, ABC News which also links to multiple other sources including BBC, the Sydney Morning Herald, etc, etc. Many many Israli sources including Times of Israel. All of these have provided more than a simple one paragraph repeat of every other source. There's also more minor mentions like this one in the WashingtonPost. To put this a little further, there's a requirement for reliability which should be self-evidently met, but, look at the sources for yourself. Sources are both secondary and independent of the subject. Now, this gives it presumed notability which is not the same as notability as some would be quick to point out. Because of that, it makes sense to address some of the arguments for deleting the article presented above.
This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable. Same crystalballing being applied as the first argument. But, again, the argument to keep is crystalballing in the opposite direction. Argument 3 - WP:GEOSCOPE; obviously does not apply given international coverage due to death of British student. This is not local news, its gone international. Argument 4 - WP:NOTNEWS;
... editors are encouraged ... and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. There's no guideline or policy on what constitutes "significant", but, there are a couple of essays on it that really don't do anything to help (e.g. WP:SIGNIFICANT and WP:CCSI). I think WP:DIVERSE applies here and that it suffices to establish significance per;
Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notablewhich of course if this is being reported in Israeli, US, British, Australian and even German sources is more than enough to meet "diverse". These sources aren't just word for word repeats of each other either, but, they do cover the same general gist of what has happened. Argument 5 -
An unfortunate bias exists here where any attack on a non-Arab by an Arab is considered notable but, for the most part, it doesn't work the other way around. That is a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument of
Delete We do not have an article on y, so we should not have an article on this. In this case, that is not a credible argument for deleting. Lastly I'll tackle WP:NOT#NEWSREPORTS; again, this does not apply. It has nothing to do with;
routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Other than that there are quite a few more delete arguments which are "per somebody else".
Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article. To extend this back to "Murder of", persistence is met if at least some of the following happens;
Some factors that may lead to a murder being notable include a large volume of coverage beyond the local area of its occurrence and continuing for a lengthy period of time thereafter, a highly publicized investigation or trial, an article about the case in a magazine long after the case has been closed, coverage on a TV series, a movie or documentary being made about the case, a new forensic technique being used to solve the crime, a law being passed as a result of the crime, or other lasting effects. I've emphasized one point which has already been met. The trial is already being lightly publicized;
fit to stand for trial. Whether or not the trial itself gets any attention is a matter for when the trial comes along. It's still in the news cycle and may or may not be as notable in a week, month, or year from now. My feeling on this is that while it won't be a huge deal it already is more than a minor local affair. I think because of this, the article merits inclusion on the encyclopaedia. Side-issue; There is a lot of, to be honest, useless nonsense written above that is entirely distracting from the issue. I have to endorse Kingsidian's comment about "giving it a rest". Mr rnddude ( talk) 11:20, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I ask you to at least consider whether this article is being judged by different standards- I would say that this question would only be relevant if those also went to AfD and the same editors opined in a clearly different way. I've only gone through the first two on the list, which do not look to have gone to AfD, and which likely should go to AfD. Neither the Munich nor Reutlingen articles contain any indication of lasting coverage whatsoever. Brief mentions in lists, the obvious update upon sentencing, and that's it. All of the citations otherwise come from within a week of the event. Perhaps the reason it's easier to form an opinion on this one is that there is an obvious merge target (though there may be for the others, too -- I haven't looked yet). If you think that I have different standards or that another editor exhibits different standards for evaluating notability, it may be worth bringing up, but as this stands, it's a textbook WP:OTHERSTUFF argument. Responding to the direction of this sub-thread since E.M.Greegory's initial question, I don't know why fatal/non-fatal, multiple/single distinctions matter in terms of evaluating notability, aside from to say that they are indications of the only thing that actually matters -- that the events receive significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject over a period of time. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Off-topic bickering unrelated to the AfD |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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