Hello, Violet Kaplinsky, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
- Introduction and Getting started
- Contributing to Wikipedia
- The five pillars of Wikipedia
- How to edit a page and How to develop articles
- How to create your first article
- Simplified Manual of Style
You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit The Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome!
I see that you tried to insert a Christmas Cantata by David Mitchell, and that it was reverted. When I was new I had no idea that you read who did what in the article history, but you seem to be advanced and found out that it was Michael Bednarek who reverted, giving as a reason that it is not even clear which Mitchell. Another reason is that every entry there needs an independent source to verify it (which may be an article on the piece). I will now revert to Michael's version, which had other improvements also. Please: only return Mitchell's work linking to the correct composer, and with a source. It doesn't matter how important his work is, important is who says so. A performance or recording by notable people would be an indication, or a review in a notable publication. Please always sign on talk pages. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:02, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
- Coming over, to have the discussion one place. Will look at the article and back. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:44, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, I saw no recent change and like that, lets first talk. In this version, when you click on the name Mitchell, what happens? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page
Christmas cantata has been reverted.
Your edit
here to
Christmas cantata was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links in references which are discouraged per our
reliable sources guideline. The reference(s) you added or changed (
https://sites.google.com/site/brightmorningstar624/home/christmas-cantata (redirect from
http://www.christmascantata.com)) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia.
If you were trying to insert an
external link that does comply with our
policies and
guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to
undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's
external links guideline for more information, and consult my
list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see
my FAQ page. Thanks! --
XLinkBot (
talk) 07:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Violet, we had the same thing before. Please offer a solid independent source, or drop it. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:16, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Violet, did you understand the bot message? (Probably not, or you would not have inserted it again.) Do you understand that external links may not appear in the middle of prose, only in references and in the External links section? Do you have an independent source? Can I help you format a reference? - Please look at Christmas cantata and see how it's done for other works. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 12:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hello Gerda, Sorry. I did it the best I could. I copied the text for the Waterhouse and Hosokawa cantatas, and replaced them with Mitchell's christmascantata.com url. Should I have done it differently? Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 13:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ok, I understand better now that I didn't read the bot message carefully enough. It says that the specific external link is on a list the bot has as not reliable enough. Again (as last year): do you have a good review about a performance? Waterhouse and Hosokawa are composers with an article, - that's the biggest difference, their notability is establishd. Schott, Hosokawa's publisher, has an article, while Campbell has not. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:46, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Gerda, It’s published on Amazon. I would think that would be independent enough source. You'll find it here. https://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Cantata-David-C-Mitchell/dp/1534976884/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505225088&sr=8-1&keywords=mitchell+christmas+cantata. It's also on amazon europe. Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 14:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- On talk pages, we indent ;) - You can try, let's see what happens. It's still not the most independent source, - do you understand? The writing looks promotional, for example "But, if you really want to go to town ...". -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Gerda, Thanks. Well let's try, like you say. I'll repost the entry. Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 21:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Didn't you mean to use the Amazon url? - I did it for you. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- There's no article on the the composer David C. Mitchell, so a mention of his work does prima facie not satisfy Wikipedia's requirement of notability. A link to Amazon for his Christmas Cantata also fails for the same reason. At minimum, there must be independent, reliable and reputable sources about it. I'm going to remove that entry again. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Didn't you mean to use the Amazon url? - I did it for you. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Michael, Gerda thought the link to Amazon was best, but I would prefer a link to Dr Mitchell's christmascantata.com site. Wikipedia's welcome page says "Anyone can edit, and every improvement helps. Thank you for helping the world discover more!" But I don't feel your decision to remove this reference is in line with this policy. If a Wikipedia article on the composer is required by Wiki regulations, then that can be supplied. In the meantime, I would ask you kindly to reconsider.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 08:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
-
Michael's removal is completely in line with Wikipedia's policies on
notability and
verifiabilty. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but if their additions do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, their edits will be removed. The Amazon link is useless for establishing notability and therefore for justifying its inclusion in the article. It simply proves that the work exists. His Cantata is self-published. Anyone can self-publish one of their works, and anyone can sell their self-published works on Amazon. Furthermore, as a commercial link to a page selling the item it is highly inappropriate as a reference. For his work to be included in the article, it needs to have been published by a notable music publisher and there needs to be evidence of it having been actually performed and reviewed. Until then additions of the work to
Christmas cantata will be removed.
Voceditenore (
talk) 08:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Removed by who? I don't get it. Exactly who must I satisfy in order that this entry remains on the site? Is it Mme Gerda? Or Michael Bednarek or Signor Tenor Voice? Please explain.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- By Michael, as announced just above, and for the reason explained, which is policy and guidelines, and which Voceditenore explained further, and in detail, in a nutshell: a self-published book does not substantiate notability of the work, which would be needed for a mention. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Is Michael the chief editor of the page? Or how does it work? Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 12:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- By Michael, as announced just above, and for the reason explained, which is policy and guidelines, and which Voceditenore explained further, and in detail, in a nutshell: a self-published book does not substantiate notability of the work, which would be needed for a mention. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Removed by who? I don't get it. Exactly who must I satisfy in order that this entry remains on the site? Is it Mme Gerda? Or Michael Bednarek or Signor Tenor Voice? Please explain.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
-
Michael's removal is completely in line with Wikipedia's policies on
notability and
verifiabilty. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but if their additions do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, their edits will be removed. The Amazon link is useless for establishing notability and therefore for justifying its inclusion in the article. It simply proves that the work exists. His Cantata is self-published. Anyone can self-publish one of their works, and anyone can sell their self-published works on Amazon. Furthermore, as a commercial link to a page selling the item it is highly inappropriate as a reference. For his work to be included in the article, it needs to have been published by a notable music publisher and there needs to be evidence of it having been actually performed and reviewed. Until then additions of the work to
Christmas cantata will be removed.
Voceditenore (
talk) 08:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Michael, Gerda thought the link to Amazon was best, but I would prefer a link to Dr Mitchell's christmascantata.com site. Wikipedia's welcome page says "Anyone can edit, and every improvement helps. Thank you for helping the world discover more!" But I don't feel your decision to remove this reference is in line with this policy. If a Wikipedia article on the composer is required by Wiki regulations, then that can be supplied. In the meantime, I would ask you kindly to reconsider.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 08:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
It works by observing Wikipedia policy on editing and verifiability, and its guidelines on notability and external links. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 14:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Violet, no one is the "chief editor" of an article. As Michael said, the article's content is determined by a consensus of the editors working on the article and is based on Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. You have now had three experienced editors explaining to you here why your addition is not appropriate per Wikipedia guidelines and what sources you would need to provide to make it appropriate. If you want a wider view on this, then I strongly suggest you start a discussion at
Talk:Christmas cantata concerning your proposed addition and I will notify the members of
WikiProject Classical music of the discussion. If you have more general questions about how the editing process on Wikipedia works, you can post a question at the
The Teahouse.
Voceditenore (
talk) 14:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your advice. So, if we can produce evidence that the work has been performed, in the form of testimonials from Music Directors with a contact address, will we then be able to include Mitchell's Cantata on Wikipedia?
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No one doubts that the work has been performed. The question is whether performances have received significant coverage in reputable sources. Please read the links to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines provided above. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 10:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No, Violet, "testimonials" via email are not acceptable. The entry must be referenced to a reliable, independently published source. Once again, please read Verifiability and Identifying reliable sources—completely from beginning to end. Also, to whom does the "we" refer to? Are you connected in any way to Mitchell? If so, you need to read the guidance at this page very carefully. Voceditenore ( talk) 12:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No one doubts that the work has been performed. The question is whether performances have received significant coverage in reputable sources. Please read the links to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines provided above. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 10:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your advice. So, if we can produce evidence that the work has been performed, in the form of testimonials from Music Directors with a contact address, will we then be able to include Mitchell's Cantata on Wikipedia?
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello, Violet Kaplinsky, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
- Introduction and Getting started
- Contributing to Wikipedia
- The five pillars of Wikipedia
- How to edit a page and How to develop articles
- How to create your first article
- Simplified Manual of Style
You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit The Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome!
I see that you tried to insert a Christmas Cantata by David Mitchell, and that it was reverted. When I was new I had no idea that you read who did what in the article history, but you seem to be advanced and found out that it was Michael Bednarek who reverted, giving as a reason that it is not even clear which Mitchell. Another reason is that every entry there needs an independent source to verify it (which may be an article on the piece). I will now revert to Michael's version, which had other improvements also. Please: only return Mitchell's work linking to the correct composer, and with a source. It doesn't matter how important his work is, important is who says so. A performance or recording by notable people would be an indication, or a review in a notable publication. Please always sign on talk pages. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:02, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
- Coming over, to have the discussion one place. Will look at the article and back. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:44, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, I saw no recent change and like that, lets first talk. In this version, when you click on the name Mitchell, what happens? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page
Christmas cantata has been reverted.
Your edit
here to
Christmas cantata was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links in references which are discouraged per our
reliable sources guideline. The reference(s) you added or changed (
https://sites.google.com/site/brightmorningstar624/home/christmas-cantata (redirect from
http://www.christmascantata.com)) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia.
If you were trying to insert an
external link that does comply with our
policies and
guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to
undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's
external links guideline for more information, and consult my
list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see
my FAQ page. Thanks! --
XLinkBot (
talk) 07:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Violet, we had the same thing before. Please offer a solid independent source, or drop it. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:16, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Violet, did you understand the bot message? (Probably not, or you would not have inserted it again.) Do you understand that external links may not appear in the middle of prose, only in references and in the External links section? Do you have an independent source? Can I help you format a reference? - Please look at Christmas cantata and see how it's done for other works. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 12:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hello Gerda, Sorry. I did it the best I could. I copied the text for the Waterhouse and Hosokawa cantatas, and replaced them with Mitchell's christmascantata.com url. Should I have done it differently? Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 13:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ok, I understand better now that I didn't read the bot message carefully enough. It says that the specific external link is on a list the bot has as not reliable enough. Again (as last year): do you have a good review about a performance? Waterhouse and Hosokawa are composers with an article, - that's the biggest difference, their notability is establishd. Schott, Hosokawa's publisher, has an article, while Campbell has not. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:46, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Gerda, It’s published on Amazon. I would think that would be independent enough source. You'll find it here. https://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Cantata-David-C-Mitchell/dp/1534976884/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505225088&sr=8-1&keywords=mitchell+christmas+cantata. It's also on amazon europe. Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 14:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- On talk pages, we indent ;) - You can try, let's see what happens. It's still not the most independent source, - do you understand? The writing looks promotional, for example "But, if you really want to go to town ...". -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Gerda, Thanks. Well let's try, like you say. I'll repost the entry. Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 21:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Didn't you mean to use the Amazon url? - I did it for you. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- There's no article on the the composer David C. Mitchell, so a mention of his work does prima facie not satisfy Wikipedia's requirement of notability. A link to Amazon for his Christmas Cantata also fails for the same reason. At minimum, there must be independent, reliable and reputable sources about it. I'm going to remove that entry again. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Didn't you mean to use the Amazon url? - I did it for you. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Michael, Gerda thought the link to Amazon was best, but I would prefer a link to Dr Mitchell's christmascantata.com site. Wikipedia's welcome page says "Anyone can edit, and every improvement helps. Thank you for helping the world discover more!" But I don't feel your decision to remove this reference is in line with this policy. If a Wikipedia article on the composer is required by Wiki regulations, then that can be supplied. In the meantime, I would ask you kindly to reconsider.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 08:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
-
Michael's removal is completely in line with Wikipedia's policies on
notability and
verifiabilty. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but if their additions do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, their edits will be removed. The Amazon link is useless for establishing notability and therefore for justifying its inclusion in the article. It simply proves that the work exists. His Cantata is self-published. Anyone can self-publish one of their works, and anyone can sell their self-published works on Amazon. Furthermore, as a commercial link to a page selling the item it is highly inappropriate as a reference. For his work to be included in the article, it needs to have been published by a notable music publisher and there needs to be evidence of it having been actually performed and reviewed. Until then additions of the work to
Christmas cantata will be removed.
Voceditenore (
talk) 08:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Removed by who? I don't get it. Exactly who must I satisfy in order that this entry remains on the site? Is it Mme Gerda? Or Michael Bednarek or Signor Tenor Voice? Please explain.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- By Michael, as announced just above, and for the reason explained, which is policy and guidelines, and which Voceditenore explained further, and in detail, in a nutshell: a self-published book does not substantiate notability of the work, which would be needed for a mention. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Is Michael the chief editor of the page? Or how does it work? Violet Kaplinsky ( talk) 12:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- By Michael, as announced just above, and for the reason explained, which is policy and guidelines, and which Voceditenore explained further, and in detail, in a nutshell: a self-published book does not substantiate notability of the work, which would be needed for a mention. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Removed by who? I don't get it. Exactly who must I satisfy in order that this entry remains on the site? Is it Mme Gerda? Or Michael Bednarek or Signor Tenor Voice? Please explain.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
-
Michael's removal is completely in line with Wikipedia's policies on
notability and
verifiabilty. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but if their additions do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, their edits will be removed. The Amazon link is useless for establishing notability and therefore for justifying its inclusion in the article. It simply proves that the work exists. His Cantata is self-published. Anyone can self-publish one of their works, and anyone can sell their self-published works on Amazon. Furthermore, as a commercial link to a page selling the item it is highly inappropriate as a reference. For his work to be included in the article, it needs to have been published by a notable music publisher and there needs to be evidence of it having been actually performed and reviewed. Until then additions of the work to
Christmas cantata will be removed.
Voceditenore (
talk) 08:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Dear Michael, Gerda thought the link to Amazon was best, but I would prefer a link to Dr Mitchell's christmascantata.com site. Wikipedia's welcome page says "Anyone can edit, and every improvement helps. Thank you for helping the world discover more!" But I don't feel your decision to remove this reference is in line with this policy. If a Wikipedia article on the composer is required by Wiki regulations, then that can be supplied. In the meantime, I would ask you kindly to reconsider.
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 08:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
It works by observing Wikipedia policy on editing and verifiability, and its guidelines on notability and external links. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 14:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Violet, no one is the "chief editor" of an article. As Michael said, the article's content is determined by a consensus of the editors working on the article and is based on Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. You have now had three experienced editors explaining to you here why your addition is not appropriate per Wikipedia guidelines and what sources you would need to provide to make it appropriate. If you want a wider view on this, then I strongly suggest you start a discussion at
Talk:Christmas cantata concerning your proposed addition and I will notify the members of
WikiProject Classical music of the discussion. If you have more general questions about how the editing process on Wikipedia works, you can post a question at the
The Teahouse.
Voceditenore (
talk) 14:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your advice. So, if we can produce evidence that the work has been performed, in the form of testimonials from Music Directors with a contact address, will we then be able to include Mitchell's Cantata on Wikipedia?
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No one doubts that the work has been performed. The question is whether performances have received significant coverage in reputable sources. Please read the links to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines provided above. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 10:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No, Violet, "testimonials" via email are not acceptable. The entry must be referenced to a reliable, independently published source. Once again, please read Verifiability and Identifying reliable sources—completely from beginning to end. Also, to whom does the "we" refer to? Are you connected in any way to Mitchell? If so, you need to read the guidance at this page very carefully. Voceditenore ( talk) 12:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- No one doubts that the work has been performed. The question is whether performances have received significant coverage in reputable sources. Please read the links to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines provided above. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 10:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your advice. So, if we can produce evidence that the work has been performed, in the form of testimonials from Music Directors with a contact address, will we then be able to include Mitchell's Cantata on Wikipedia?
Violet Kaplinsky (
talk) 09:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)