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Thank you for reworking that page, it is a great improvement, though I agree the article still needs work. I agree with your change to the sentence about "consensus", though I thought it best to refer to "consensus decision-making" because that seems to be an alternative process whereas "consensus" is more generic and, as you say, is a desirable goal of any procedure though it is often not possible. I think we are basically saying the same thing. In any event, I would agree with eliminating that sentence and putting a "see also" to the Consensus decision-making article. Neutron ( talk) 19:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at what I have done with this article today. In part, it was inspired by your comments at Talk:Main motion#Merger proposal. I did not finish what I started, but I am trying to integrate the section on TSC into the main article, and then I put all the legislative stuff at the end, along with something else that I found. At least this way, it is clear which part of the article is about what, and it does not contain statements that are true only under Robert's without clearly identifying them as such. What do you think? I am also wondering whether to do the same thing at Table (parliamentary), the current structure of which was created by me several months ago. I think it might not be necessary because the "table" motion is much simpler than the motion to "reconsider" and there are fewer differences between the authorities. Neutron ( talk) 17:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for asking my opinion. However, you might end up with more feedback than what you expected - I will try to keep this short. (Not likely short enough.) First, you obviously know how to write well (much appreciated) and you are excellent at cleaning up (which you may do behind me at any time, no explanations needed.) The research you incorporated was exactly what I think is needed. We seem to be of similar mind.
A) An Article Structure is Needed: A standard list of (optional) headings usable on every motion page. These headings could be pre-placed in the article, when appropriate, to encourage others to fill them in. This suggested list is just a suggestion to encourage comments:
B) Note RONR clearly: When material is from RONR we need to designate that specifically. The motion box on the upper right is from RONR, therefore it should be labeled something like Reconsider (RONR). TSC and Demeter give this class a different heading/name. If possible, we should 'float' this box to be in the RONR section. Elsewhere on the project is an INFOBOX List of Subsidiary motions which is straight out of RONR, so we should label it RONR. On a number of the smaller motion pages, the explanation is pure RONR, so that article should be noted clearly as RONR only - at least until the page is further filled out.
C) Full vs. Short Citations: In researching the Wiki citation suggestions, I found a comment about 'short citations'. Instead of referencing the complete book information for each reference note, it has been suggested to only do that the first time. The next time the same book (but different page) is referenced, use the short citation format. It would clean up the long list of citations on this page. That may lessen the effective use of the cite_parl template, but perhaps we can look at reprogramming that. There is also guidance on using both Notes and Reference headings, which may work for these motion articles.
D) TSC vs. RONR: While TSC (4th) edition lists some major differences between the two, I have study material that lists many more. Contact me offline if you would like a copy to use while editing these pages.
E) Use of non-PA as sources: As I have overstated before, most of these motion articles are straight out of RONR (not copied, but limited to what is in RONR; in other words, just a re-statement.) You have been able to add TSC which helps, and a noticeable difference occurred when you found and added the other research material. At some time, I hope the editors can use one more class of sources -- there are 100's of books/articles written about these parliamentary authorities and their rules, as opposed to a similar PA with a simplified or slightly different version of the same thing. Adding these non-PA references will give the insight that cannot easily be gained by just what is contained inside a PA. [Oops, I am showing my preference that this project not just be another version of a Robert-type PA book.] Again, contact me if you want suggestions on some of these titles. [My assumption is that you don't live near me otherwise you could just visit my 'library.']
Overall, the information in the article is good, accurate, etc. I know the work it takes to write these articles so I hope you can keep adding to this one. I believe the page could be improved by following a set structure, similar to my suggestions above, so I hope you have the energy/time to restructure it, if not, let me know, and I'll make an effort. I am in favor of starting out each motion page with an introduction that is non-technical, that used non-parliamentary language, etc. It may take some research to find citations to back up what I wrote in the demonstration paragraph, but I found most, of not all, those observations in other books.
Caution: I am not suggesting that every motion page be fully filled out with history, differences, legislative, etc. - instead I would like to see a 'structure' of some sort that will make it easy for other editors to operate within and give direction to lessen major re-writing in the future. ...and, of course, headings like this will tend to lessen the RONR biased approach which we can all fall into too easily. Parlirules ( talk) 21:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
''Parli'''''rules''' ( talk) 02:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I have made some additions to this article, some of which are under the "Explanation" heading that you added. I believe that all of this material applies under all authorities, therefore I did not put it in the RONR section. Please feel free to modify if you think that is incorrect. And thanks for all the work you are doing on these articles, especially under the somewhat difficult circumstnces that others have created. Neutron ( talk) 20:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
You are a whirlwind on these parliamentary procedure articles. I can't even keep up with reading all that you are doing, but what I see all looks good. I can only dabble here and there. Speaking of which, I basically re-did the above-linked article. Please tell me what you think. I am still not completely happy with the order of the material and I think the title could be better as well, but I am done with it for right now.
Also, what would you think of merging Principles of parliamentary procedure (after perhaps condensing it a bit as it seems somewhat repetitive) into Parliamentary procedure? It seems that a good goal for us would be to get the latter article on the way to at least "Good article" status, since it is the foundation article of the whole project, and this might be a first step. Please let me know what you think. Neutron ( talk) 16:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for signing on and I welcome your involvement. If you have a special interest or expertise please let us know. I noticed your admin work on 'cleaning' up Wikipedia -- I appreciate your efforts in raising the quality of Wikipedia! ~ Parlirules ( talk) 14:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I just wanted to point out a few things about your most recent edits to the above article and I decided to do it here rather than there. Technically the article now has no intro, since Wikipedia defines the intro as the material before the first heading. What you seem to have done is to write a new intro and put a heading on it, which would be fine with me personally but is non-standard on Wikipedia. I am inferring that your intro heading, "Restoratory motions", is probably what you would prefer as a new title for the article. In any event, you have placed that name for this category (from Demeter) first, with Robert's name (Motions that bring, etc.) second and Sturgis' name (Restorative main motions) third. Is there a particular reason for that? I can see some value in consistency, and most (if not all) of our other motion articles have Robert's first, Sturgis second and then everything else. Although I know you have expressed a concern for the "Robert's-centric" nature of the articles, a concern which I share (though probably to lesser degree), if we need to choose an order, the order of usage of the respective authorities seems to be as fair and logical an order as any. In other words, Robert's first, followed by Sturgis, followed by anything else, seems to make sense to me. Therefore, although I like both Sturgis' and Demeter's names for this class of motions better than Robert's, I am not sure on what basis Demeter gets first billing. Neutron ( talk) 23:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
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A bot has removed a lot of the images from this page because they are considered non-free and non-free images can't be used in portals. You should check whether the images are in fact non-free — anything dating from earlier than 1923 is public domain in the USA — and reinsert them if they are. Let me know if you need any help. Stifle ( talk) 11:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Here! :^) Justmeherenow ( ) 23:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC) I'm asking for your expertise -- or at least input, lol -- on how we might operate procedurally since what we're contemplating is sort of new ground. Justmeherenow ( ) 00:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC) What I'd meant, actually, is if you provide input about how we might structure our proposed procedures? Justmeherenow ( ) 09:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
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Archive Index |
Thank you for reworking that page, it is a great improvement, though I agree the article still needs work. I agree with your change to the sentence about "consensus", though I thought it best to refer to "consensus decision-making" because that seems to be an alternative process whereas "consensus" is more generic and, as you say, is a desirable goal of any procedure though it is often not possible. I think we are basically saying the same thing. In any event, I would agree with eliminating that sentence and putting a "see also" to the Consensus decision-making article. Neutron ( talk) 19:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at what I have done with this article today. In part, it was inspired by your comments at Talk:Main motion#Merger proposal. I did not finish what I started, but I am trying to integrate the section on TSC into the main article, and then I put all the legislative stuff at the end, along with something else that I found. At least this way, it is clear which part of the article is about what, and it does not contain statements that are true only under Robert's without clearly identifying them as such. What do you think? I am also wondering whether to do the same thing at Table (parliamentary), the current structure of which was created by me several months ago. I think it might not be necessary because the "table" motion is much simpler than the motion to "reconsider" and there are fewer differences between the authorities. Neutron ( talk) 17:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for asking my opinion. However, you might end up with more feedback than what you expected - I will try to keep this short. (Not likely short enough.) First, you obviously know how to write well (much appreciated) and you are excellent at cleaning up (which you may do behind me at any time, no explanations needed.) The research you incorporated was exactly what I think is needed. We seem to be of similar mind.
A) An Article Structure is Needed: A standard list of (optional) headings usable on every motion page. These headings could be pre-placed in the article, when appropriate, to encourage others to fill them in. This suggested list is just a suggestion to encourage comments:
B) Note RONR clearly: When material is from RONR we need to designate that specifically. The motion box on the upper right is from RONR, therefore it should be labeled something like Reconsider (RONR). TSC and Demeter give this class a different heading/name. If possible, we should 'float' this box to be in the RONR section. Elsewhere on the project is an INFOBOX List of Subsidiary motions which is straight out of RONR, so we should label it RONR. On a number of the smaller motion pages, the explanation is pure RONR, so that article should be noted clearly as RONR only - at least until the page is further filled out.
C) Full vs. Short Citations: In researching the Wiki citation suggestions, I found a comment about 'short citations'. Instead of referencing the complete book information for each reference note, it has been suggested to only do that the first time. The next time the same book (but different page) is referenced, use the short citation format. It would clean up the long list of citations on this page. That may lessen the effective use of the cite_parl template, but perhaps we can look at reprogramming that. There is also guidance on using both Notes and Reference headings, which may work for these motion articles.
D) TSC vs. RONR: While TSC (4th) edition lists some major differences between the two, I have study material that lists many more. Contact me offline if you would like a copy to use while editing these pages.
E) Use of non-PA as sources: As I have overstated before, most of these motion articles are straight out of RONR (not copied, but limited to what is in RONR; in other words, just a re-statement.) You have been able to add TSC which helps, and a noticeable difference occurred when you found and added the other research material. At some time, I hope the editors can use one more class of sources -- there are 100's of books/articles written about these parliamentary authorities and their rules, as opposed to a similar PA with a simplified or slightly different version of the same thing. Adding these non-PA references will give the insight that cannot easily be gained by just what is contained inside a PA. [Oops, I am showing my preference that this project not just be another version of a Robert-type PA book.] Again, contact me if you want suggestions on some of these titles. [My assumption is that you don't live near me otherwise you could just visit my 'library.']
Overall, the information in the article is good, accurate, etc. I know the work it takes to write these articles so I hope you can keep adding to this one. I believe the page could be improved by following a set structure, similar to my suggestions above, so I hope you have the energy/time to restructure it, if not, let me know, and I'll make an effort. I am in favor of starting out each motion page with an introduction that is non-technical, that used non-parliamentary language, etc. It may take some research to find citations to back up what I wrote in the demonstration paragraph, but I found most, of not all, those observations in other books.
Caution: I am not suggesting that every motion page be fully filled out with history, differences, legislative, etc. - instead I would like to see a 'structure' of some sort that will make it easy for other editors to operate within and give direction to lessen major re-writing in the future. ...and, of course, headings like this will tend to lessen the RONR biased approach which we can all fall into too easily. Parlirules ( talk) 21:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
''Parli'''''rules''' ( talk) 02:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I have made some additions to this article, some of which are under the "Explanation" heading that you added. I believe that all of this material applies under all authorities, therefore I did not put it in the RONR section. Please feel free to modify if you think that is incorrect. And thanks for all the work you are doing on these articles, especially under the somewhat difficult circumstnces that others have created. Neutron ( talk) 20:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
You are a whirlwind on these parliamentary procedure articles. I can't even keep up with reading all that you are doing, but what I see all looks good. I can only dabble here and there. Speaking of which, I basically re-did the above-linked article. Please tell me what you think. I am still not completely happy with the order of the material and I think the title could be better as well, but I am done with it for right now.
Also, what would you think of merging Principles of parliamentary procedure (after perhaps condensing it a bit as it seems somewhat repetitive) into Parliamentary procedure? It seems that a good goal for us would be to get the latter article on the way to at least "Good article" status, since it is the foundation article of the whole project, and this might be a first step. Please let me know what you think. Neutron ( talk) 16:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for signing on and I welcome your involvement. If you have a special interest or expertise please let us know. I noticed your admin work on 'cleaning' up Wikipedia -- I appreciate your efforts in raising the quality of Wikipedia! ~ Parlirules ( talk) 14:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I just wanted to point out a few things about your most recent edits to the above article and I decided to do it here rather than there. Technically the article now has no intro, since Wikipedia defines the intro as the material before the first heading. What you seem to have done is to write a new intro and put a heading on it, which would be fine with me personally but is non-standard on Wikipedia. I am inferring that your intro heading, "Restoratory motions", is probably what you would prefer as a new title for the article. In any event, you have placed that name for this category (from Demeter) first, with Robert's name (Motions that bring, etc.) second and Sturgis' name (Restorative main motions) third. Is there a particular reason for that? I can see some value in consistency, and most (if not all) of our other motion articles have Robert's first, Sturgis second and then everything else. Although I know you have expressed a concern for the "Robert's-centric" nature of the articles, a concern which I share (though probably to lesser degree), if we need to choose an order, the order of usage of the respective authorities seems to be as fair and logical an order as any. In other words, Robert's first, followed by Sturgis, followed by anything else, seems to make sense to me. Therefore, although I like both Sturgis' and Demeter's names for this class of motions better than Robert's, I am not sure on what basis Demeter gets first billing. Neutron ( talk) 23:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:EdmundCushing.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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Thanks for uploading Image:Cushing Manual 1876.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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Thanks for uploading Image:RONR 10th.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the " my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot ( talk) 12:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
A bot has removed a lot of the images from this page because they are considered non-free and non-free images can't be used in portals. You should check whether the images are in fact non-free — anything dating from earlier than 1923 is public domain in the USA — and reinsert them if they are. Let me know if you need any help. Stifle ( talk) 11:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Here! :^) Justmeherenow ( ) 23:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC) I'm asking for your expertise -- or at least input, lol -- on how we might operate procedurally since what we're contemplating is sort of new ground. Justmeherenow ( ) 00:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC) What I'd meant, actually, is if you provide input about how we might structure our proposed procedures? Justmeherenow ( ) 09:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
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talk) 16:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello, Parlirules. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello, Parlirules. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Portal:Parliamentary procedure, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Parliamentary procedure and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Parliamentary procedure during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 02:53, 18 September 2019 (UTC)