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Jimmy, would you be kind enough to look at the allegations described in this blog post, then comment on them? - 2001:558:1404:0:0:5EFE:A19:F327 ( talk) 13:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, after two days, it would appear that not a single editorial adjustment has been made on Mark Amin or MathWorks (or the various articles about its products), so what do we conclude? That Wikipedians will eventually address the problem of COI employee and paid-PR editing, just not now? That Wikipedians do address these problems, just not on these particular cases, because they were brought to our attention by a "troll"? Or, that Wikipedians do address these problems, just not in the cases of financial donors to the WMF? - 2001:558:1400:10:412B:35D4:A950:1B39 ( talk) 16:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of 3RR:
3. Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users.
When somebody just thumbs his nose at the community, and doesn't pretend that he is editing in good faith or even try to pretend to hide the fact that he is banned, just revert him. I'll ask every editor who knows how Mr. 2001 works to just revert him every time they see Mr. 2001's edits. Admins can even join in! Of course, this is Jimbo's talk page, so if and when Jimbo says that he wants to see Mr. 2001's comments on this page, nobody should revert 2001 here. Smallbones( smalltalk) 21:38, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Kumioko is a banned editor with a long history of harassment of other editors, including me. A report to Kumioko's ISP, whether an employer or not, is long overdue.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 18:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
You may want to take a look at this. Duke Olav Otterson of Bornholm ( talk) 15:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
not sure, due to me being different person than AGK. 75 * 21:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
With precedent."Threat" of action against actual problem. O K. 75 * 21:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I think if editors are upset with this email, they should discuss whether Wikipedia should or should not be sending out these notices to anyone, and not just focus on this instance. I think these notices are pretty standard but the focus should be on how to address long-time vandals, especially ones that deluge admins and ARBCOM with email messages saying they have no intention of stopping their disruptive behavior. What would you have admins do in response? Liz Read! Talk! 21:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Rules are relative, what is problematic behavior within Wikipedia isn't necessarily problematic in an absolute sense. If I decide to pick up my vacuum cleaner to get rid of an ants nest in my home, I'm probably violating the rules that govern that ants nest. Count Iblis ( talk) 23:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Is there any question of whether a government agency can identify who has been editing from any one of its particular computers? These things are usually pretty tightly controlled. — Neotarf ( talk) 05:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK did not, IMO, make a "legal threat" as in a "threat of litigation" but it is a "threat" in the sense that he is clearly writing with an implicit Arb hat on (Arbs writing sans-toque generally make that clear) - though the issue really seems to be whether this is a "routine email" or not. If it is "routine" we should be told how many precisely similar emails AGK has sent. If this is an "unusual case" (i.e. if it appears AGK does not send such emails as a rule) then the issue becomes far muddier as to intent. And far more concerning. Collect ( talk) 14:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Looking forwardI invite those who have expressed concern about AGK's e-mail (meaning the substance underlying it, not just the phrasing) to propose an alternate course of action that would help in putting an end to the disruption. Kumioko's behavior since his community ban, which BASC declined to overturn, has been outrageous. He has had dozens of accounts and IPs blocked by this point. He has publicly stated that he aspires to become "the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history." He stated, "[s]o now if they want me to be a sockmaster, then fine, I'll pursue that with just as much enthusiasm as I did editing. I know they'll catch me eventually but in the mean time I will be a drain on resources and divert them from being able to do anything else." He has stated, "[s]ince my help wasn't wanted, I'll just distract them with socking and trolling as I find the time. Days or weeks might go by and it may come in waves but it'll be fun." He has aspired to cause numerous innocent editors and would-be editors to be blocked as collateral damage, stating "I'll just be a pain in the ass and a distraction. In the process though a lot of innocent editors will be blocked (several already have), time will be distracted form the project and I'll have some fun. The only way they'll keep me away is if they range block the whole t-mobile and Verison Fios networks. I doubt they have the desire to do that." He added, "[m]aybe they ban editing from the Verizon network or t-mobile. Its hard to say what the long term effects will be, but its not going to be pleasant." In the same vein, "I have gotten 2 range blocks for Verizon Fios which means a lot of people coming from 172 or 208 will need to get an IPblock exemption to edit in which case most of them will assume its me and deny it. 1 for me, 0 for WP. I have also ... distracted several users. Childish perhaps but I am having fun." That was a couple of months ago, soon after he was banned; since then, things have grown worse. Kumioko has repeatedly evaded and deliberately edited around the abuse filters that were written specifically to block his access. He has left taunting and disparaging messages for numerous users. He has indicated that he intends to continue to escalate these activities, never to stop, never to respect his ban under any circumstances. He has repeatedly misused the Echo feature by deliberately pinging dozens of arbitrators, functionaries, administrators and other editors for the purpose of harassing them. He has ignored my warnings that his continued editing is in breach of the Terms of Use, and a lengthy online explanation of how his activities raise legal issues. Yesterday he suggested with pride that he is now "public enemy number one" on Wikipedia.
Multiple arbitrators, functionaries, and others have invested hours of effort in attempts to get Kumioko to stop this behavior. I believe that by now a dozen people have reached out to him both on-wiki and offline, using all sorts of approaches, with no success at all. He seems determined to continue until he goads someone into taking an extraordinary action in response to his behavior, yet now turns around and professes to be shocked, shocked, at someone's warning him that if he, himself, makes the conscious decision to persist, something of that sort might now occur. Like everyone else, certainly including AGK himself and everyone else I've seen comment on this matter, I would much prefer for Kumioko's real-world life and activities not to be affected in any way by what has become his unhealthy obsession with shrieking about alleged administrator abuse on Wikipedia. However, I would also like Kumioko to stop his disruptive and impermissible editing on the project he is banned from. An ISP report would obviously be a last resort, would obviously be controversial, and as important, it might or might not work. Who has a better idea? Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK's conduct is outrageous, and Wikipedia must take a strong stand against harassing threats of this sort. We are far, far too indulgent towards bullies. Kumioko complains loudly about admin abuse, and we prove his points for him by overreacting and threatening him. I suggest a solution to the problem that might actually work, as opposed to everything else I'm seeing: offer an olive branch and work out a reasonable solution with the guy so he can come back and we can all focus on writing content. Everyking ( talk) 00:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Has anyone notified Kumioko of this thread? — Neotarf ( talk) 06:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
The situation is a little close to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jim62sch#Threats although both users were in good standing at that time. However FT2 got into hot water for threatening another editor offwiki via threats. This situation is similar. 129.9.104.11 ( talk) 13:12, 15 May 2014 (UTC) I will reply to the first question, asking for some alternative action. If the core of the problem is that it may be needed to notify his ISP, but his ISP is also the place where this man works, then none of us Wikipedia users should do that. Either if common editors, admins or arbcom members, we all may lack the knowledge needed to adress a situation like this. The best way to act then is to contact the lawyers of the Foundation and let them talk to the ISP, as they will surely know perfectly well how to write a request that minimizes any potential legal problem for the man while acting upon the editor. And perhaps I will something that may have already been tried, but if the problem is with a sock puppets master, then block not just his account but also the IP from where he had made the accounts. You did so, and he repeated the process in the IP of his workplace? Block that one as well. If it is public, and several unrelated people logs from it, block the IP for registering accounts and all his accounts, and spare the accounts of unrelated users (sock puppet investigations surely know how to set them apart). Yes, he may then try to find some other place to register accounts, get them blocked, go somewhere else... and the game of the cat and the mice will cease when he is eventually tired and finds that seeking unused sources of internet and going through the registering forms would no longer be worth the effort; specially if he finds something else to do in his spare time. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:47, 15 May 2014 (UTC) Let's try to find a way backMr Wales, perhaps you could find it in your heart to wipe the slate clean and start over with Kumioko? There's been a tremendous amount of bad blood over this situation. He was a very good editor before the collapse. Good luck. Hell might be other people ( talk) 04:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: A way back to solve at least some of thisSimple: AGK resigns from his post on ArbCom.
MoratoriumI think this would be a good time for us to pause this thread, to stop criticizing or commenting on Kumioko, and see what happens next. Kumioko's objective over the past couple of months has been to call attention to what he considers abuses by administrators (including arbitrators) on this project. Clearly he has succeeded in drawing attention to the fact that he is dissatisfied and to some reasons why. Kumioko has e-mailed me complaining that he has been criticized on this page and can't respond here. As a courtesy to him, I point out that Kumioko has responded to the threads on this page in his postings on Wikipediocracy. Anyone interested can find those posts there in the top two threads in the "Governance" subforum. While I obviously disagree with a lot of what Kumioko has written there (not least about myself), anyone interested in his side of the story can read his posts and consider what he has to say. Let's stop talking about Kumioko now and perhaps the overall situation will cool down. Regards to all, Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Withdrawal of one allegation, with apologyKumioko has denied my statement above that over the weekend, one of his accounts vandalized a BLP. This led me to checkuser that account. It appears that that account was an imposter. I therefore withdraw that allegation. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 22:29, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Could you please get involved Mr Wales?I think this situation requires your personal attention. Thanks. Hell might be other people ( talk) 15:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
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This discussion is closed. It is completely mistaken to characterize the problem of ongoing harassment of editors a problem of being "persistent about accessing". If you have further questions, I recommend you email them to WMF legal.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 19:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have no questions, but I do have a observation. The real harassment in question here has taken the form of threatening someone's livelihood. Jimbo, you have a responsibility, if you are to have any moral authority here, to take a strong stand against this abuse. We must not treat people this way. Everyking ( talk) 21:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
After being on Wikipedia for eight years, I could not help, but notice that some topics have an inherent bias against inclusion despite passing WP:GNG. I was wondering if you feel that this encyclopedia was meant to be completely unbiased in coverage and should coverage all notable subjects, or are there topics you feel are unencyclopedic and should have higher GNG requirements that the standard? Valoem talk contrib 22:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Valoem's and cyclopia analysis. I've long suspected that part of the problem lies in the way content policies have been codified. WP:GNG and WP:RS have been written with the needs of western audiences, and thinking about the level of coverage that western media provide. Proof of that is that we have long established practice of outcomes for keeping articles that are exceptions to the rules, as they don't fully comply with those policies (such as geographic places and schools) but are nevertheless kept because of their interest to the dominant group as a global topic; but for articles of dubious coverage that are of interest to other cultures (Bollywood films and celebrities come to mind, as well as buildings from countries without a thorough online land registry), the full strength of those policies is enforced even when some level of verifiable sources is available.
In order to achieve the original levels of participation, growth and user retention, I believe what's missing is some kind of "beta" space where the rules were not so strict, and article candidates were allowed to grow more slowly without risking deletion, benefiting from multiple collaborators extended in time. AfD should have worked for that, but it is too centered on a single editor building the article in one sitting; and I had high hopes that the new Draft space could fulfill that role, but it still suffers too much from inertia imposed by the community bureaucratic monster.
Now I don't advocate a return to the time of no editorial processes and low quality of content - at least not in the main space. However, a fork of some kind that was clearly marked as unofficial, and being limited to the bare minimum of protective measures (BLPs, vandalism, COPYVIO and the most egregious SPAM) would benefit those people who want to explore the possibilities and capture knowledge from those other cultures, without the baggage of the most subtle aspects of current policy - which, as I said, have been fine-tuned to the necessities and liking of educated netizens from the 2000s. This separate space could develop a new set of rules and a new, young community of members, from the areas of the world that the WMF is targeting. Diego ( talk) 18:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, I think you might mention many of the delete votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in outer space (3rd nomination) were reacting to this version of the article, which leaned so heavily toward dubious fringe rumors from unreliable fringe sources it was difficult to tell if they were even notable. Also, some "academic sources documenting such events" in the earlier version included stuff like Journal of Scientific Exploration, Journal of UFO Studies, and New Frontiers in Science [4]. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 20:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
"When the same group of editors repeatedly engage in the same AfD, we are essentially holding a kangaroo trial and this is prevalent throughout Wikipedia."I was involved in one of the AfD's you mentioned, so I wanted to make sure that if you have a beef with specific editors or group of editors it goes to the proper venue. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 15:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I think the answer to that is an obvious big, fat, no!- I think the answer is an obvious big, fat yes! What you are speaking of is actually how most of most senior editors actually got drawn to Wikipedia, in the old wild days. Imagine it as a giant sandbox. It allows people to contribute, to get an idea of how the wiki process etc. works, and to get involved. And then they can feel more comfortable dipping into the toes of the more bureaucratic, controlled, complex environment of "proper" WP. I think many of them will "convert" easily. Now instead we have created a huge, steep barrier of bureaucracy and checks to new editors, and it is not a surprise editors are decreasing in numbers.-- cyclopia speak! 01:10, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Concerns the interesting issue of whether that article on a EU decision is better served by linking primarily to the court decision and articles thereon, or ought also include a link to the original material about a non-notable person, on the basis that the Streisand Effect applies and that material is now directly salient for use on Wikipedia about that person. Collect ( talk) 18:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to make a complaint against the way I've been being treated in Lusophone Wikipedia. A certain editor tried to distort an article to create a dubious association between Nazism and Socialism. I protested against this attempt at manipulation of WP and I was treated like a criminal by administrators. They did not analyze the case, just accused me of things I never did and imposed an endless blockade against me. In short, I was treated like a dog and I feel ashamed.
Yes, it is true that I skirted the partial blockages that have suffered, but I did it because I enjoy writing in WP. I'm not a thug, just want to fight for the quality of the project, but I am always treated like a dog. I can not stand this situation, ask you to interfere with justice and analyze the conditions that led to my many locks. I just want to collaborate in this encyclopedia for the texts have quality and credibiidade. I do not deserve to be lynched that way. I'm tired of being forced to endure a horde of arrogant people gathering against me, help me please.
Sorry fot my bad english. Leandro LV ( talk) 08:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Today I went to Talk:Main Page for whatever reason and an editor left a link to hoisin sauce, a term I did not know. When I clicked on the link, the first thing I saw was a glaring advertisement for "Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce" on the top right hand corner, something I detest as a supporter of an advertisement-free Wikipedia, a mark in which the Foundation has great pride as well. I checked the history and found that the editor responsible, User:Kenixho, had also made a similar edit on Plum sauce. I reverted both edits, and then went to WP:SPA to find the appropriate action to take. I am not as optimistic on editorial change as SPA is, and now I'm wondering if an administrator can ban a user for such actions, or in what direction I should focus editors like Kenixho. Earlier today I watched [5] and assuming your position has not changed regarding PR firms, how should I deal with such a user? Seattle ( talk) 21:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Adrianne Wadewitz edit-a-thons in Southern New England | |
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As you may have already heard, the Wikipedia community lost an invaluable member of the community last month. Adrianne Wadewitz was a feminist scholar of 18th-Century British literature, and a prolific editor of the site. As part of a worldwide series of tributes, New England Wikimedians, in conjunction with local institutions of higher learning, have created three edit-a-thons that will be occurring in May and June. The events are as follows:
We hope that you will be able to join us, whether you are an experienced editor or are using Wikipedia for the first time. If you have any questions, please leave a message at Kevin Rutherford's talk page. You can unsubscribe from future notifications for Boston-area events by removing your name from this list. |
Removed comment from banned user. Smallbones( smalltalk) 15:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
This explains it. Best to answer there, to keep the discussion contained.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The followup to the above: a nice little spot in the last 5 minutes of
Today, discussing myths. Wikipedia came out of it very well, as
John Humphrys and the "London tour guide and historian" Peter something - I can't catch his name - Berthoud (added, see below) agreed that Wikipedia is "definitely benign and very useful" as long as you check the page history. The discussion started with
Phyllis Pearsall but Jimbo then talked about the question of who invented the aeroplane (was it the Wright brothers or ...?) as another instance where everyone "knows" something but may not all "know" the same. Hear it (for a week, and perhaps only in UK?) on BBC iPlayer
here (last 5 mins).
Pam
D 13:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC) Surname added 15:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I enjoyed listening to Jimmy Wales on the Today programme this morning on BBC Radio 4. He came over well and has an easy style. — | Gareth Griffith-Jones | The Welsh Buzzard| — 08:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
In the Urhobo people article it says they eat Iriboto, Iriberhare, Okpariku, and Oghwevwri'sha. I can't find anything in a Google search or in Google books for any of these dishes except mirrors with one exception. This source which gives me a snipped view that says "their preparation and consumption such as Ukodo,Oghwevwri,Irhiboto,Ovwovwo,(Ophopho), Okpariku and Amiedi." Is there anyone who can get me the full sentence and preceding sentences? I saw in some sort of WikiNews type update that it was possible to get research assistance directly through Wikipedia to Australian librarians? How do I do that? Any other suggestions are welcome Thanks very much. This is a critically important subject. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
I quote to you from The Times, Saturday May 17, 2014, page 10, "What the world thinks" - a sidebar to a bigger story entitled "Criminals rush to keep online data away from Google": "Jimmy Wales, the British founder of Wikipedia, said..." Of course there are other sources which differ on this point, but they are older, and they do acknowledge that I have moved to London. Possibly I've gained UK nationality? Well, actually, no, it's just a funny little error.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 15:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
FWIW - The only really bothersome "Verifiable, but false" situation that I've run into here was also from The Times, which claimed that Paul Wolfowitz was a "registered Democrat" in 2005, see Talk:Paul_Wolfowitz#Democrat. The coincidence of both being from The Times probably doesn't mean much - perhaps they just didn't realize how little "registering" for a political party means in the US (next to nothing except for voting in some state primaries). Or has The Times just gone downhill? BTW, Jimbo, can you vote in the UK? Smallbones( smalltalk) 16:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
There was some discussion some time ago here about wikinews, and the relative lack of involvement of a lot of editors there. I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council#Might wikipedia WikiProjects expand a little into other WF entities? about possibly trying to get some of the topical WikiProjects here in wikipedia maybe a bit more actively involved in content of other WF entities. I would definitely welcome input from anyone, particularly anyone with ties to the foundation itself, about such possible activity, as there might theoretically be some questions of foundation policy or guidelines involved. John Carter ( talk) 17:19, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Justin Knapp. Valoem talk contrib 23:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Collapsing question that is both answered and better suited to the reference desk.
Tazerdadog (
talk) 21:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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Note: this is a Creative Commons issue, not so much a Wikipedia one, though it affects us to an extent. I'm posting it here because of your CC involvement.
Jimbo, could you take a look at User talk:Mindspillage#CC-By-SA_and_Stackexchange_weirdness?
I don't know if Kat (Mindspillage) has seen that post. Anythingyouwant sent her an email asking her to look at it, but didn't hear anything back, and she hasn't commented, and it's been several weeks.
Do you have any thoughts? Can you pass the concern on to CC staff if you think it is appropriate?
Thanks.
70.36.142.114 ( talk) 20:23, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
You are mentioned and may have an interest in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ChildofMidnight. Thank you, Drmies ( talk) 20:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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There's little doubt that parties in arbitration cases are often users who have engaged in some type of questionable conduct, which was prompted in response to difficult situations. Given that arbs are elected/required to vote in relation to that sort of thing, is it unreasonable to expect that arbs should lead by example in their own editing, conduct, and interactions with others?
Personally, I think the on-wiki arbitration policy in relation to arbitrator conduct is a bit of a joke as it does not really address situations which are more likely to arise with arbs, or the likely outcomes required to address those situations, or why a minority of arbs ought to be sufficient to effect temporary action sometimes. Note: although it might appear this post was made after I encountered this response to a comment/criticism/suggestion I made as an uninvolved editor, I had actually been thinking about the subject generally earlier.
What are your thoughts? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Though it may be next to impossible to "get a new process", it's barely cumbersome to "proceed with a process anew"; there's nothing inherently wrong with Arbcom's remit. Just remember:
At the end of the day
When your best is in play
Don't wonder about what's amiss
For it's already known
As the "good book" has shown
The crowd will clamor: Barabbas!
— John Cline ( talk) 18:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Konveyor Belt is right. Despite that Wikipedia itself is not a democracy and doesn't therefore have to adopt any of the systems we have in democratic societies, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do so to deal with the adminstrative aspects of Wikipedia. I think that a key universal aspect that makes the justice system work is to have multiple layers of independence. When you don't have that, the system breaks down, not because of corrupt justices, rather because people are not naturally good at being objective. Count Iblis ( talk) 11:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Given the above discussion, and many similar discussions, it seems fair to conclude that there is some dissatisfaction with the overall current governance of en:Wikipedia.
For the record,
Liz's comment "the current system of proposing policy changes might not be as efficient or fair as it could be, but I don't see an alternative," is what I'd like to address. I think in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change in any policy. Too many people - perhaps a majority - would like to say "please don't make any change in policies - in fact bring them back to the way they were when I first figured out what they were." Combined with a consensus system where a highly motivated group of perhaps 5% of the editors can block just about anything, and we've got a formula for "no change in policy is ever allowed" with the exception of folks who spend a tremendous amount of time nibbling around the edges of current policy resulting in a bit of confusion what the policies actually are and brownian motion around the current policies. In the fast changing technology sector, this sounds like a formula for disaster. We could become the new America Online in a year or two (did I remember their name correctly?)
Remember I said "in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change." I say this as somebody who IMHO has helped to make a major change of policy - instituting reasonable regulation on paid editing. Yes, the board still has to make an announcement on this, but I'm 99% sure they are not going to go against the views expressed by 80% of the respondents (and likely 90% of the real editorship). One "vote" like this, and the Hoser-style wild west period of paid editing will never come back. But there was a certain amount of luck, and an impossible amount of work by many people just to have a chance at getting that forum. And i don't think that a political style voting system is what we really want or need here.
So I'll offer an alternative for Liz and others to consider - remember, this is not a vote with campaigning, political parties, and the like.
Totally fictitious example
Some editors are starting to talk about doo-dads and say that every article needs one. But they are generally reverted by editors who say doo-dads violate our deepest beliefs. The WMF picks up on the discussion and runs a quick survey on the question and find that 60% of editors favor doo-dads and 80% of the surveyed readers do as well.
Given the surprising results (and a presumed conservative policy against doo-dads), a more carefully worded survey is constructed with input from both sides. This survey confirms that 65% of editors would allow doo-dads and 90% of readers would allow them, but neither group favors requiring them.
Given a pretty clear approval over a six month period, a third survey is scheduled in 3 months. Assuming similar results, editors would be given instructions to write a policy allowing doo-dads.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Yet another sock of User:Operahome. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Dear Jimbo, I found that administrator on Eng. Wikipedia had blocked creation of the article on Igor Janev in the way that only Administrators of Wikipedia can create that article. I tried with my account to create article on Janev, and I found that it was impossible. It is my understanding that administrator Rschen7754 had limited creation of that article for admin. accounts. If so, can anyone fix this problem. Prof. dr. Igor Janev exists, and he is the one of the most prominent intellectuals and a public figure in Macedonia. There were no reasons for such an extreme action by an administrator. I Hope that someone will find the solution for this situation. Sincerely yours, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.45.130 ( talk) 09:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
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Hello, is there a policy shift towards banning IP editing? This change [8] seems to indicate that IP editors should be discouraged from editing. Thereby leading to a loss of IP-editors. -- 65.94.171.126 ( talk) 04:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
"When asked about this, Wales simply smiled and said, "Good luck coming after us."
Well said, Mr. Wales. Well said.
http://www.ibtimes.com/eu-google-ruling-wikipedias-jimmy-wales-ridicules-right-be-forgotten-1584247 Smatprt ( talk) 17:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 160 | Archive 161 | Archive 162 | Archive 163 | Archive 164 | Archive 165 | → | Archive 170 |
Jimmy, would you be kind enough to look at the allegations described in this blog post, then comment on them? - 2001:558:1404:0:0:5EFE:A19:F327 ( talk) 13:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, after two days, it would appear that not a single editorial adjustment has been made on Mark Amin or MathWorks (or the various articles about its products), so what do we conclude? That Wikipedians will eventually address the problem of COI employee and paid-PR editing, just not now? That Wikipedians do address these problems, just not on these particular cases, because they were brought to our attention by a "troll"? Or, that Wikipedians do address these problems, just not in the cases of financial donors to the WMF? - 2001:558:1400:10:412B:35D4:A950:1B39 ( talk) 16:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of 3RR:
3. Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users.
When somebody just thumbs his nose at the community, and doesn't pretend that he is editing in good faith or even try to pretend to hide the fact that he is banned, just revert him. I'll ask every editor who knows how Mr. 2001 works to just revert him every time they see Mr. 2001's edits. Admins can even join in! Of course, this is Jimbo's talk page, so if and when Jimbo says that he wants to see Mr. 2001's comments on this page, nobody should revert 2001 here. Smallbones( smalltalk) 21:38, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Kumioko is a banned editor with a long history of harassment of other editors, including me. A report to Kumioko's ISP, whether an employer or not, is long overdue.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 18:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
You may want to take a look at this. Duke Olav Otterson of Bornholm ( talk) 15:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
not sure, due to me being different person than AGK. 75 * 21:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
With precedent."Threat" of action against actual problem. O K. 75 * 21:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I think if editors are upset with this email, they should discuss whether Wikipedia should or should not be sending out these notices to anyone, and not just focus on this instance. I think these notices are pretty standard but the focus should be on how to address long-time vandals, especially ones that deluge admins and ARBCOM with email messages saying they have no intention of stopping their disruptive behavior. What would you have admins do in response? Liz Read! Talk! 21:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Rules are relative, what is problematic behavior within Wikipedia isn't necessarily problematic in an absolute sense. If I decide to pick up my vacuum cleaner to get rid of an ants nest in my home, I'm probably violating the rules that govern that ants nest. Count Iblis ( talk) 23:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Is there any question of whether a government agency can identify who has been editing from any one of its particular computers? These things are usually pretty tightly controlled. — Neotarf ( talk) 05:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK did not, IMO, make a "legal threat" as in a "threat of litigation" but it is a "threat" in the sense that he is clearly writing with an implicit Arb hat on (Arbs writing sans-toque generally make that clear) - though the issue really seems to be whether this is a "routine email" or not. If it is "routine" we should be told how many precisely similar emails AGK has sent. If this is an "unusual case" (i.e. if it appears AGK does not send such emails as a rule) then the issue becomes far muddier as to intent. And far more concerning. Collect ( talk) 14:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Looking forwardI invite those who have expressed concern about AGK's e-mail (meaning the substance underlying it, not just the phrasing) to propose an alternate course of action that would help in putting an end to the disruption. Kumioko's behavior since his community ban, which BASC declined to overturn, has been outrageous. He has had dozens of accounts and IPs blocked by this point. He has publicly stated that he aspires to become "the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history." He stated, "[s]o now if they want me to be a sockmaster, then fine, I'll pursue that with just as much enthusiasm as I did editing. I know they'll catch me eventually but in the mean time I will be a drain on resources and divert them from being able to do anything else." He has stated, "[s]ince my help wasn't wanted, I'll just distract them with socking and trolling as I find the time. Days or weeks might go by and it may come in waves but it'll be fun." He has aspired to cause numerous innocent editors and would-be editors to be blocked as collateral damage, stating "I'll just be a pain in the ass and a distraction. In the process though a lot of innocent editors will be blocked (several already have), time will be distracted form the project and I'll have some fun. The only way they'll keep me away is if they range block the whole t-mobile and Verison Fios networks. I doubt they have the desire to do that." He added, "[m]aybe they ban editing from the Verizon network or t-mobile. Its hard to say what the long term effects will be, but its not going to be pleasant." In the same vein, "I have gotten 2 range blocks for Verizon Fios which means a lot of people coming from 172 or 208 will need to get an IPblock exemption to edit in which case most of them will assume its me and deny it. 1 for me, 0 for WP. I have also ... distracted several users. Childish perhaps but I am having fun." That was a couple of months ago, soon after he was banned; since then, things have grown worse. Kumioko has repeatedly evaded and deliberately edited around the abuse filters that were written specifically to block his access. He has left taunting and disparaging messages for numerous users. He has indicated that he intends to continue to escalate these activities, never to stop, never to respect his ban under any circumstances. He has repeatedly misused the Echo feature by deliberately pinging dozens of arbitrators, functionaries, administrators and other editors for the purpose of harassing them. He has ignored my warnings that his continued editing is in breach of the Terms of Use, and a lengthy online explanation of how his activities raise legal issues. Yesterday he suggested with pride that he is now "public enemy number one" on Wikipedia.
Multiple arbitrators, functionaries, and others have invested hours of effort in attempts to get Kumioko to stop this behavior. I believe that by now a dozen people have reached out to him both on-wiki and offline, using all sorts of approaches, with no success at all. He seems determined to continue until he goads someone into taking an extraordinary action in response to his behavior, yet now turns around and professes to be shocked, shocked, at someone's warning him that if he, himself, makes the conscious decision to persist, something of that sort might now occur. Like everyone else, certainly including AGK himself and everyone else I've seen comment on this matter, I would much prefer for Kumioko's real-world life and activities not to be affected in any way by what has become his unhealthy obsession with shrieking about alleged administrator abuse on Wikipedia. However, I would also like Kumioko to stop his disruptive and impermissible editing on the project he is banned from. An ISP report would obviously be a last resort, would obviously be controversial, and as important, it might or might not work. Who has a better idea? Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK's conduct is outrageous, and Wikipedia must take a strong stand against harassing threats of this sort. We are far, far too indulgent towards bullies. Kumioko complains loudly about admin abuse, and we prove his points for him by overreacting and threatening him. I suggest a solution to the problem that might actually work, as opposed to everything else I'm seeing: offer an olive branch and work out a reasonable solution with the guy so he can come back and we can all focus on writing content. Everyking ( talk) 00:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Has anyone notified Kumioko of this thread? — Neotarf ( talk) 06:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
The situation is a little close to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jim62sch#Threats although both users were in good standing at that time. However FT2 got into hot water for threatening another editor offwiki via threats. This situation is similar. 129.9.104.11 ( talk) 13:12, 15 May 2014 (UTC) I will reply to the first question, asking for some alternative action. If the core of the problem is that it may be needed to notify his ISP, but his ISP is also the place where this man works, then none of us Wikipedia users should do that. Either if common editors, admins or arbcom members, we all may lack the knowledge needed to adress a situation like this. The best way to act then is to contact the lawyers of the Foundation and let them talk to the ISP, as they will surely know perfectly well how to write a request that minimizes any potential legal problem for the man while acting upon the editor. And perhaps I will something that may have already been tried, but if the problem is with a sock puppets master, then block not just his account but also the IP from where he had made the accounts. You did so, and he repeated the process in the IP of his workplace? Block that one as well. If it is public, and several unrelated people logs from it, block the IP for registering accounts and all his accounts, and spare the accounts of unrelated users (sock puppet investigations surely know how to set them apart). Yes, he may then try to find some other place to register accounts, get them blocked, go somewhere else... and the game of the cat and the mice will cease when he is eventually tired and finds that seeking unused sources of internet and going through the registering forms would no longer be worth the effort; specially if he finds something else to do in his spare time. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:47, 15 May 2014 (UTC) Let's try to find a way backMr Wales, perhaps you could find it in your heart to wipe the slate clean and start over with Kumioko? There's been a tremendous amount of bad blood over this situation. He was a very good editor before the collapse. Good luck. Hell might be other people ( talk) 04:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: A way back to solve at least some of thisSimple: AGK resigns from his post on ArbCom.
MoratoriumI think this would be a good time for us to pause this thread, to stop criticizing or commenting on Kumioko, and see what happens next. Kumioko's objective over the past couple of months has been to call attention to what he considers abuses by administrators (including arbitrators) on this project. Clearly he has succeeded in drawing attention to the fact that he is dissatisfied and to some reasons why. Kumioko has e-mailed me complaining that he has been criticized on this page and can't respond here. As a courtesy to him, I point out that Kumioko has responded to the threads on this page in his postings on Wikipediocracy. Anyone interested can find those posts there in the top two threads in the "Governance" subforum. While I obviously disagree with a lot of what Kumioko has written there (not least about myself), anyone interested in his side of the story can read his posts and consider what he has to say. Let's stop talking about Kumioko now and perhaps the overall situation will cool down. Regards to all, Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Withdrawal of one allegation, with apologyKumioko has denied my statement above that over the weekend, one of his accounts vandalized a BLP. This led me to checkuser that account. It appears that that account was an imposter. I therefore withdraw that allegation. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 22:29, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Could you please get involved Mr Wales?I think this situation requires your personal attention. Thanks. Hell might be other people ( talk) 15:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
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This discussion is closed. It is completely mistaken to characterize the problem of ongoing harassment of editors a problem of being "persistent about accessing". If you have further questions, I recommend you email them to WMF legal.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 19:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have no questions, but I do have a observation. The real harassment in question here has taken the form of threatening someone's livelihood. Jimbo, you have a responsibility, if you are to have any moral authority here, to take a strong stand against this abuse. We must not treat people this way. Everyking ( talk) 21:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
After being on Wikipedia for eight years, I could not help, but notice that some topics have an inherent bias against inclusion despite passing WP:GNG. I was wondering if you feel that this encyclopedia was meant to be completely unbiased in coverage and should coverage all notable subjects, or are there topics you feel are unencyclopedic and should have higher GNG requirements that the standard? Valoem talk contrib 22:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Valoem's and cyclopia analysis. I've long suspected that part of the problem lies in the way content policies have been codified. WP:GNG and WP:RS have been written with the needs of western audiences, and thinking about the level of coverage that western media provide. Proof of that is that we have long established practice of outcomes for keeping articles that are exceptions to the rules, as they don't fully comply with those policies (such as geographic places and schools) but are nevertheless kept because of their interest to the dominant group as a global topic; but for articles of dubious coverage that are of interest to other cultures (Bollywood films and celebrities come to mind, as well as buildings from countries without a thorough online land registry), the full strength of those policies is enforced even when some level of verifiable sources is available.
In order to achieve the original levels of participation, growth and user retention, I believe what's missing is some kind of "beta" space where the rules were not so strict, and article candidates were allowed to grow more slowly without risking deletion, benefiting from multiple collaborators extended in time. AfD should have worked for that, but it is too centered on a single editor building the article in one sitting; and I had high hopes that the new Draft space could fulfill that role, but it still suffers too much from inertia imposed by the community bureaucratic monster.
Now I don't advocate a return to the time of no editorial processes and low quality of content - at least not in the main space. However, a fork of some kind that was clearly marked as unofficial, and being limited to the bare minimum of protective measures (BLPs, vandalism, COPYVIO and the most egregious SPAM) would benefit those people who want to explore the possibilities and capture knowledge from those other cultures, without the baggage of the most subtle aspects of current policy - which, as I said, have been fine-tuned to the necessities and liking of educated netizens from the 2000s. This separate space could develop a new set of rules and a new, young community of members, from the areas of the world that the WMF is targeting. Diego ( talk) 18:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, I think you might mention many of the delete votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in outer space (3rd nomination) were reacting to this version of the article, which leaned so heavily toward dubious fringe rumors from unreliable fringe sources it was difficult to tell if they were even notable. Also, some "academic sources documenting such events" in the earlier version included stuff like Journal of Scientific Exploration, Journal of UFO Studies, and New Frontiers in Science [4]. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 20:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
"When the same group of editors repeatedly engage in the same AfD, we are essentially holding a kangaroo trial and this is prevalent throughout Wikipedia."I was involved in one of the AfD's you mentioned, so I wanted to make sure that if you have a beef with specific editors or group of editors it goes to the proper venue. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 15:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I think the answer to that is an obvious big, fat, no!- I think the answer is an obvious big, fat yes! What you are speaking of is actually how most of most senior editors actually got drawn to Wikipedia, in the old wild days. Imagine it as a giant sandbox. It allows people to contribute, to get an idea of how the wiki process etc. works, and to get involved. And then they can feel more comfortable dipping into the toes of the more bureaucratic, controlled, complex environment of "proper" WP. I think many of them will "convert" easily. Now instead we have created a huge, steep barrier of bureaucracy and checks to new editors, and it is not a surprise editors are decreasing in numbers.-- cyclopia speak! 01:10, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Concerns the interesting issue of whether that article on a EU decision is better served by linking primarily to the court decision and articles thereon, or ought also include a link to the original material about a non-notable person, on the basis that the Streisand Effect applies and that material is now directly salient for use on Wikipedia about that person. Collect ( talk) 18:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to make a complaint against the way I've been being treated in Lusophone Wikipedia. A certain editor tried to distort an article to create a dubious association between Nazism and Socialism. I protested against this attempt at manipulation of WP and I was treated like a criminal by administrators. They did not analyze the case, just accused me of things I never did and imposed an endless blockade against me. In short, I was treated like a dog and I feel ashamed.
Yes, it is true that I skirted the partial blockages that have suffered, but I did it because I enjoy writing in WP. I'm not a thug, just want to fight for the quality of the project, but I am always treated like a dog. I can not stand this situation, ask you to interfere with justice and analyze the conditions that led to my many locks. I just want to collaborate in this encyclopedia for the texts have quality and credibiidade. I do not deserve to be lynched that way. I'm tired of being forced to endure a horde of arrogant people gathering against me, help me please.
Sorry fot my bad english. Leandro LV ( talk) 08:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Today I went to Talk:Main Page for whatever reason and an editor left a link to hoisin sauce, a term I did not know. When I clicked on the link, the first thing I saw was a glaring advertisement for "Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce" on the top right hand corner, something I detest as a supporter of an advertisement-free Wikipedia, a mark in which the Foundation has great pride as well. I checked the history and found that the editor responsible, User:Kenixho, had also made a similar edit on Plum sauce. I reverted both edits, and then went to WP:SPA to find the appropriate action to take. I am not as optimistic on editorial change as SPA is, and now I'm wondering if an administrator can ban a user for such actions, or in what direction I should focus editors like Kenixho. Earlier today I watched [5] and assuming your position has not changed regarding PR firms, how should I deal with such a user? Seattle ( talk) 21:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Adrianne Wadewitz edit-a-thons in Southern New England | |
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As you may have already heard, the Wikipedia community lost an invaluable member of the community last month. Adrianne Wadewitz was a feminist scholar of 18th-Century British literature, and a prolific editor of the site. As part of a worldwide series of tributes, New England Wikimedians, in conjunction with local institutions of higher learning, have created three edit-a-thons that will be occurring in May and June. The events are as follows:
We hope that you will be able to join us, whether you are an experienced editor or are using Wikipedia for the first time. If you have any questions, please leave a message at Kevin Rutherford's talk page. You can unsubscribe from future notifications for Boston-area events by removing your name from this list. |
Removed comment from banned user. Smallbones( smalltalk) 15:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
This explains it. Best to answer there, to keep the discussion contained.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
The followup to the above: a nice little spot in the last 5 minutes of
Today, discussing myths. Wikipedia came out of it very well, as
John Humphrys and the "London tour guide and historian" Peter something - I can't catch his name - Berthoud (added, see below) agreed that Wikipedia is "definitely benign and very useful" as long as you check the page history. The discussion started with
Phyllis Pearsall but Jimbo then talked about the question of who invented the aeroplane (was it the Wright brothers or ...?) as another instance where everyone "knows" something but may not all "know" the same. Hear it (for a week, and perhaps only in UK?) on BBC iPlayer
here (last 5 mins).
Pam
D 13:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC) Surname added 15:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I enjoyed listening to Jimmy Wales on the Today programme this morning on BBC Radio 4. He came over well and has an easy style. — | Gareth Griffith-Jones | The Welsh Buzzard| — 08:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
In the Urhobo people article it says they eat Iriboto, Iriberhare, Okpariku, and Oghwevwri'sha. I can't find anything in a Google search or in Google books for any of these dishes except mirrors with one exception. This source which gives me a snipped view that says "their preparation and consumption such as Ukodo,Oghwevwri,Irhiboto,Ovwovwo,(Ophopho), Okpariku and Amiedi." Is there anyone who can get me the full sentence and preceding sentences? I saw in some sort of WikiNews type update that it was possible to get research assistance directly through Wikipedia to Australian librarians? How do I do that? Any other suggestions are welcome Thanks very much. This is a critically important subject. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
I quote to you from The Times, Saturday May 17, 2014, page 10, "What the world thinks" - a sidebar to a bigger story entitled "Criminals rush to keep online data away from Google": "Jimmy Wales, the British founder of Wikipedia, said..." Of course there are other sources which differ on this point, but they are older, and they do acknowledge that I have moved to London. Possibly I've gained UK nationality? Well, actually, no, it's just a funny little error.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 15:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
FWIW - The only really bothersome "Verifiable, but false" situation that I've run into here was also from The Times, which claimed that Paul Wolfowitz was a "registered Democrat" in 2005, see Talk:Paul_Wolfowitz#Democrat. The coincidence of both being from The Times probably doesn't mean much - perhaps they just didn't realize how little "registering" for a political party means in the US (next to nothing except for voting in some state primaries). Or has The Times just gone downhill? BTW, Jimbo, can you vote in the UK? Smallbones( smalltalk) 16:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
There was some discussion some time ago here about wikinews, and the relative lack of involvement of a lot of editors there. I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council#Might wikipedia WikiProjects expand a little into other WF entities? about possibly trying to get some of the topical WikiProjects here in wikipedia maybe a bit more actively involved in content of other WF entities. I would definitely welcome input from anyone, particularly anyone with ties to the foundation itself, about such possible activity, as there might theoretically be some questions of foundation policy or guidelines involved. John Carter ( talk) 17:19, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Justin Knapp. Valoem talk contrib 23:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Collapsing question that is both answered and better suited to the reference desk.
Tazerdadog (
talk) 21:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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Note: this is a Creative Commons issue, not so much a Wikipedia one, though it affects us to an extent. I'm posting it here because of your CC involvement.
Jimbo, could you take a look at User talk:Mindspillage#CC-By-SA_and_Stackexchange_weirdness?
I don't know if Kat (Mindspillage) has seen that post. Anythingyouwant sent her an email asking her to look at it, but didn't hear anything back, and she hasn't commented, and it's been several weeks.
Do you have any thoughts? Can you pass the concern on to CC staff if you think it is appropriate?
Thanks.
70.36.142.114 ( talk) 20:23, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
You are mentioned and may have an interest in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ChildofMidnight. Thank you, Drmies ( talk) 20:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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There's little doubt that parties in arbitration cases are often users who have engaged in some type of questionable conduct, which was prompted in response to difficult situations. Given that arbs are elected/required to vote in relation to that sort of thing, is it unreasonable to expect that arbs should lead by example in their own editing, conduct, and interactions with others?
Personally, I think the on-wiki arbitration policy in relation to arbitrator conduct is a bit of a joke as it does not really address situations which are more likely to arise with arbs, or the likely outcomes required to address those situations, or why a minority of arbs ought to be sufficient to effect temporary action sometimes. Note: although it might appear this post was made after I encountered this response to a comment/criticism/suggestion I made as an uninvolved editor, I had actually been thinking about the subject generally earlier.
What are your thoughts? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Though it may be next to impossible to "get a new process", it's barely cumbersome to "proceed with a process anew"; there's nothing inherently wrong with Arbcom's remit. Just remember:
At the end of the day
When your best is in play
Don't wonder about what's amiss
For it's already known
As the "good book" has shown
The crowd will clamor: Barabbas!
— John Cline ( talk) 18:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Konveyor Belt is right. Despite that Wikipedia itself is not a democracy and doesn't therefore have to adopt any of the systems we have in democratic societies, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do so to deal with the adminstrative aspects of Wikipedia. I think that a key universal aspect that makes the justice system work is to have multiple layers of independence. When you don't have that, the system breaks down, not because of corrupt justices, rather because people are not naturally good at being objective. Count Iblis ( talk) 11:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Given the above discussion, and many similar discussions, it seems fair to conclude that there is some dissatisfaction with the overall current governance of en:Wikipedia.
For the record,
Liz's comment "the current system of proposing policy changes might not be as efficient or fair as it could be, but I don't see an alternative," is what I'd like to address. I think in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change in any policy. Too many people - perhaps a majority - would like to say "please don't make any change in policies - in fact bring them back to the way they were when I first figured out what they were." Combined with a consensus system where a highly motivated group of perhaps 5% of the editors can block just about anything, and we've got a formula for "no change in policy is ever allowed" with the exception of folks who spend a tremendous amount of time nibbling around the edges of current policy resulting in a bit of confusion what the policies actually are and brownian motion around the current policies. In the fast changing technology sector, this sounds like a formula for disaster. We could become the new America Online in a year or two (did I remember their name correctly?)
Remember I said "in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change." I say this as somebody who IMHO has helped to make a major change of policy - instituting reasonable regulation on paid editing. Yes, the board still has to make an announcement on this, but I'm 99% sure they are not going to go against the views expressed by 80% of the respondents (and likely 90% of the real editorship). One "vote" like this, and the Hoser-style wild west period of paid editing will never come back. But there was a certain amount of luck, and an impossible amount of work by many people just to have a chance at getting that forum. And i don't think that a political style voting system is what we really want or need here.
So I'll offer an alternative for Liz and others to consider - remember, this is not a vote with campaigning, political parties, and the like.
Totally fictitious example
Some editors are starting to talk about doo-dads and say that every article needs one. But they are generally reverted by editors who say doo-dads violate our deepest beliefs. The WMF picks up on the discussion and runs a quick survey on the question and find that 60% of editors favor doo-dads and 80% of the surveyed readers do as well.
Given the surprising results (and a presumed conservative policy against doo-dads), a more carefully worded survey is constructed with input from both sides. This survey confirms that 65% of editors would allow doo-dads and 90% of readers would allow them, but neither group favors requiring them.
Given a pretty clear approval over a six month period, a third survey is scheduled in 3 months. Assuming similar results, editors would be given instructions to write a policy allowing doo-dads.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Yet another sock of User:Operahome. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Dear Jimbo, I found that administrator on Eng. Wikipedia had blocked creation of the article on Igor Janev in the way that only Administrators of Wikipedia can create that article. I tried with my account to create article on Janev, and I found that it was impossible. It is my understanding that administrator Rschen7754 had limited creation of that article for admin. accounts. If so, can anyone fix this problem. Prof. dr. Igor Janev exists, and he is the one of the most prominent intellectuals and a public figure in Macedonia. There were no reasons for such an extreme action by an administrator. I Hope that someone will find the solution for this situation. Sincerely yours, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.45.130 ( talk) 09:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
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Hello, is there a policy shift towards banning IP editing? This change [8] seems to indicate that IP editors should be discouraged from editing. Thereby leading to a loss of IP-editors. -- 65.94.171.126 ( talk) 04:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
"When asked about this, Wales simply smiled and said, "Good luck coming after us."
Well said, Mr. Wales. Well said.
http://www.ibtimes.com/eu-google-ruling-wikipedias-jimmy-wales-ridicules-right-be-forgotten-1584247 Smatprt ( talk) 17:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)