This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Did you just want some comments from me to you about the article, or would you prefer I place an article review on its talk page? Vassyana ( talk) 19:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy with just some informal feedback to me; but if you feel it would help the article's further progress, do post it to the talk page. Jayen 466 19:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Please do not restore your recent edits of WP:Undue weight in a WP:BLP article to Rick Ross (consultant). Your edits rely almost exclusively on a source with a bias and obvious financial conflict of interest. This issue should be resolved and discussed, and until that is addressed the info should remain out in a WP:BLP, not the other way around. Cirt ( talk) 18:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Jayen466/Archives/2008. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. [1] Semitransgenic ( talk) 12:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Coldwinterday has recently created several articles on books by Tahir Shah. See that article for the list. Regards, EricT ( talk) 17:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Jayen 466 17:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A casual look at just Trail of Feathers and In Arabian Nights and a google search reveals that much of the description is to be found on other published pages. See articles' talk pages. Uninvolved editors' help, please. Regards, EricT ( talk) 08:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Re. Checkuser, see TS 25 September. Also see newly added explanation at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Coldwinterday EricT ( talk) 11:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Confirmed that Mikegooderson and Coldwinterday are the same user." That means that someone is telling porkies: Coldwinterday has only come across TS's books in the last three years; Mikegooderson manages to get copyright of images and some edits appear to show intimate knowledge of the subject (???) EricT ( talk) 16:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Porkers (not halal) indeed. What's the point? Jayen 466 17:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand uyour inssitence on including so much of the Jason Scott case in the Rick Ross article. By comparison, I see very little mention of the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack in Osho, even though virtually every source that discusses the attack mentions Rajneesh. Why should those articles be treated differently? Would you object to adding over 700 words about the attack to the Osho biography? WP:SAUCE. We have an article specifically about the attack, and an article about the Scott deprogramming. It's probably better to keep details of the incidents in those articles rather than in the bios. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Because Ross was legally convicted by a jury who held him reponsible for what happened, and Osho was not even indicted for it but in fact alerted authorities to it. Jayen 466 05:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd imagine that there isn't a lack of sources which connect Osho to the attack, but I can check if there's any doubt. You reverted one edit with the comment "this is a staple of all accounts in RS". Are you asserting that Osho was not a staple in reliable sources about the attack? I'd be surprised if even a single source on the incident fails to mention Osho. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure he is. And he is mentioned in our article on the attack, and the attack is mentioned in our article on him. But why are we talking about Osho? Jayen 466 05:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And I'm not opposng mentioning the Jason Scott case in the Rick Ross article. I'm objecting to having over 700 words on a case that already has an article of its own, one already filled with lurid POV like "violent kidnapping". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, have created a page for the film writer, screenplay-writer and successor-son of Omar Ali-Shah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arif_Ali-Shah

Am hoping that it won't be flagged for speedy deletion as I'm a bit short of "reception" and bio at the moment. Cheers and thanks again, EricT ( talk) 14:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, I've created my first wiki page on Jan Fishan Khan (previously created by another but with too little context, so was deleted). Any help and feedback appreciated. EricT ( talk) 19:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Jayen. If you have the time and get the urge, just rip into the article and (being a newbie) I'll see how it's done. EricT ( talk) 17:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I think you basically got the right idea. Jayen 466 17:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

JFK is still an Afghan people stub but now has quite a lot of detail. Who and how does this get reassessed as maybe start class, Jayen? EricT ( talk) 13:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

You can just delete the stub marker and it will default to start class (I think). Jayen 466 13:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the comment on the fatwa, Jayen. Please do. I don't have a source, only an emailed copy of the fatwa which was originally faxed. EricT ( talk) 18:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for this sterling work, Jayen. It's very helpful and looking good. EricT ( talk) 11:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Were you thinking of taking out the list of relatives from the infoboxes (and maybe replacing with a link to the Shah family)? EricT ( talk) 12:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Eric, I thought we should lighten the load on the info boxes. The family navbox will display at the bottom of the page, enabling interested users to access the articles on the other family members. Jayen 466 12:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The link at the bottom of the page is //Category:Shah family// . How do I provide a hyperlink to this same category beside infobox relatives? Or is that not a good idea? EricT ( talk) 12:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at Arif Ali-Shah. I've replaced the listing of relatives with a link to the Shah family category. Would this do? Jayen 466 12:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's fine and what I thought might be possible, but wasn't sure if I could hyperlink this way without producing a boxed category list. Have changed other Shahs accordingly. Cheers, EricT ( talk) 13:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Omar Ali-Shah is missing an infobox. At the moment we have a mix of Person and Writer. I'll add one, if you like: which would you suggest? EricT ( talk) 14:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Correction: Idries Shah for one is Artist. EricT ( talk) 14:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd use artist, it has movement and notable works, which is probably all we need for him. Jayen 466 15:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. EricT ( talk) 11:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Please check and advise, but I've added a mention of Safia (with the ed. of Afghan Caravan ref) to Jan Fishan Khan descendants section (by request). Does she merit an unlinked addition to the Shah family 6th generation? Sentimentally, I feel she's left "out in the cold." EricT ( talk) 11:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done We can start an article on her if and when there is enough coverage. Jayen 466 11:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, check your j466 email: have sent you a text file containing raw text from web sites and possible URLs. Maybe this will give you an idea of the material available? Could be developed in sandbox. You have the expertise and if you have the time and the urge, go ahead: if not I can give it a try. Regards, EricT ( talk) 12:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, one of the sources in Tahir Shah mentioned that Safia ran a food shop in London; that's potentially corroborated here. It would help if Octagon Press could put up a little bit on her here. That the Afghan Caravan book edited by her was picked by Doris Lessing in the Daily Telegraph as Book of the Year could be put forward as satisfying WP:NOTABILITY, but given that it seems to have been her only publication, and that about 20 years ago, the matter is debatable. It would help if we could find the original Daily Telegraph article online, but it's not on the telegraph website, and the Wayback Machine is down at the moment. All in all I'm not sure she deserves an article. One does not have to be famous to be a good person. ;-) Jayen 466 16:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

You could be right about notability as it stands, Jayen. FWIW, I've posted a draft with very sparse refs (ie one!) to my user page /Sandbox. EricT ( talk) 16:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I came across an article on humour by her for something like the European Therapy Studies Institute which has links with The New Therapist Journal and Human Givens. EricT ( talk) 16:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest you add the amazon page as a ref. You anticipated my next question – has she published anything else? I wasn't able to find anything. Jayen 466 16:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would be a good idea to ask them if they'd like an entry. Maybe you could approach them, Jayen? And maybe point them at the current Shah family entries? Is that their web site http://www.agold.co.uk/ or has the domain changed hands? EricT ( talk) 18:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change anything in the sandbox, feel free. EricT ( talk) 18:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

No, the domain seems to have expired and been taken over by domain vultures. My feeling would be not to create the article; suggest you run it by Tahir (best wishes to him, enjoyed his books :-) ), with a link to your sandbox, and he can run it by them. Cheers, Jayen 466 18:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll give that a try, Jayen. Sound judgment. Regards, EricT ( talk) 18:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Email sent to Tahir, mentioning in passing that we really need details of other articles written to make sure of notability.

Also email sent to Octagon Press to see if they know the Daily Telegraph year and any details about Literary Review. Maybe a long shot. EricT ( talk) 10:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Tahir writes: "Safia's media shy (not a Shah family characteristic) but I think she'd be flattered to have a wikipedia page", will see what he can find and also suggests it would be good to have a page about his grandmother. See j466 inbox for full text. Thanks and regards, EricT ( talk) 20:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering if you could look at this page [2] Cheers 60.229.34.127 ( talk) 00:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Saira Elisabeth Luiza Shah (born Morag Murray, pen-name Morag Murray Abdullah).

Tahir suggested an article on her would be good, Jayen. Have got a basic draft article in /Sandbox2 with a to do list on the associated talk page. Have a look, if you get the time and the urge.

Cheers, EricT ( talk) 22:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Do whatever you like with the two articles, Jayen. Leave them / add to / subtract / change / publish when ready -- whatever you feel is right. EricT ( talk) 22:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, should have checked earlier. There's a VERY brief and incomplete stub already on Morag Murray Abdullah. Should I create Saira E... Shah as this is perhaps more in keeping with the Shah family cat? Then you could perhaps suggest a redirect from Morag Murray Abdullah? Advice, please? Judging by the current stub which has not been deleted, we look good to go. EricT ( talk) 10:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's make the stub for the pseudonym a redirect to her real name, transfer the existing material there, and then we can add to it. Jayen 466 10:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Still haven't quite woken up this morning, Jayen. Confirm I create article with title ... Shah? Cheers! EricT ( talk) 10:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean. :-) Saira Elizabeth Luiza Shah would be the appropriate title, it seems. Saira Elizabeth Shah should redirect to that. And we may need a disambiguation line at the top of the Saira Shah article. How about some coffee? :-) Cheers, Jayen 466 10:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Kettle now on -- could you handle the creation, transfer and etcs (if I'm not imposing)? You're more skilled at it than I am. EricT ( talk) 10:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Will do. Jayen 466 10:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done Jayen 466 10:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You're a treasure, Jayen: will take a look when the coffee-induced adrenaline rush has subsided. EricT ( talk) 10:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Saira Elizabeth Luiza Shah is the original MMA stub article. Are you overwriting with /Sandbox2 contents (in my user pages)? EricT ( talk) 10:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No, could you merge what you have in your sandbox with the existing content? Jayen 466 10:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Will do. EricT ( talk) 10:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done Though obviously still needs a lot of work. EricT ( talk) 11:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• That looks great, you have done well. :-) Jayen 466 11:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, the page is spelt "Elizabeth" ... or is it Elisabeth? Regards, EricT ( talk) 11:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

See [3], which has the "z". Cheers, Jayen 466 12:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The photo's marked private (at least to me), Jayen. I was just going by the name in Idries Shah and Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah. EricT ( talk) 12:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a yahoo! search on Saira Elizabeth Shah does come up with several Saira Elizabeth L. Shahs . EricT ( talk) 12:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I've mailed you a copy of the picture. Jayen 466 12:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Good find! You can't get much more verified than that :) EricT ( talk) 12:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If you could use gravestone pix elsewhere, I've added photo collection as a ref to Morag's article (the link works without being logged in). EricT ( talk) 12:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello. Try to propose it at infobox's talk page, maybe other users will comment to it as well. - Darwinek ( talk) 12:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:P-chart

>In industrial statistics, the p-chart is a type of control chart that is very similar to the

>X-bar chart except that the statistic being plotted is the sample proportion rather than the

>sample mean.

The p-chart doesn't exist: it is also an X-bar chart. X can be Gauss or Bernouilli distributed.

Martin Segers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.239.157.3 ( talk) 07:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I've responded on the p-chart talk page. Jayen 466 14:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I will be reviewing your article Idries Shah for GA and have left some initial comments on Talk:Idries Shah/GA1. Please feel free to contact me with any comments or questions. Regards, — Mattisse ( Talk) 23:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Cheers, Jayen 466 23:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, does legacy deserve to be a section rather than a subsection of reception? Just a thought, EricT ( talk) 15:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The section is not very substantial at the moment; I think it fits in quite nicely within Reception. (In Frank Zappa, the Legacy section actually includes Reception.) At the moment, I'd prefer it as is. What do you think? Jayen 466 16:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, Jayen. Regards, EricT ( talk) 16:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, Tahir Shah writes: "I don't know if this is of interest or appropriate, but The Estate [of Idries Shah] has specific source material on file which may be useful for supporting reference information on Wikipedia, or other sites.

"For example:

"IS was a visiting guest professor at the University of Geneva in 1972/3. This was announced in the Court Circular of The (London) Times on 18th may 1972, page 21, col. C.

"or

"There are and have been a long list of well known writers (and others) who have read and studied IS works. Doris Lessing is often mentioned, but is only one of many. For example JD Salinger visited Langton and met with my father. I was recently reading Joyce Maynard's book 'At Home in the World: A Memoir', ISBN  0312202296. On page 156, she states that Salinger spent the evenings reading IS books, as well as Lao Tse and Vivekananda."

There's news about the soon to be revamped, official Idries Shah web site here.

Cheers, EricT ( talk) 16:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Good, we can look at that. Are you in e-mail contact with Tahir? Jayen 466 16:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Just recently, yes, Jayen -- though I don't want to pester him (especially as he's working on self-confessed overload at the moment). EricT ( talk) 16:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, reading all the way through Idries Shah, it's a great article. Well done. Best of luck luck with the GA review! I had linked ICR further down the page -- please unlink if appropriate as now linked in the lede. EricT ( talk) 10:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Eric. (I had missed that comment earlier!) Jayen 466 17:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Have just sent you a pdf with a page from Who's Who of America which partly answers questions and may be of further use. There are lots of scans at The Tenth Donkey in Files -> documents and -> sufi-related. But the idiots didn't bother to pen in publication details (eg dates). EricT ( talk) 17:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

And thanks again, will have a look. Cheers, Jayen 466 17:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Have created an article for the ICR, though not sure if it will stay long before being deleted, Jayen. Recently deleted as insubstantive.

See The_Institute_for_Cultural_Research. EricT ( talk) 20:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You need 3rd-party sources, Eric. Jayen 466 20:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm struggling, Jayen. These folk need to be advised to make sure they get themselves fully cited :) EricT ( talk) 21:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Check through these: [4]; many of them seem to be for other ICRs. Then there are these: [5], narrowed down a bit more. Then: google books, google scholar Jayen 466 22:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks, Jayen. Thank God Shah had friends in high places! Another user has taken off the notability tag, reckons it look snotable enough. EricT ( talk) 22:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the google scholar link. Am going to turn in for the night. Feel free to chill out or attack the article or whatever. Cheers, EricT ( talk) 22:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to show me how to use scholar. No brain left tonight. EricT ( talk) 22:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Okeydoke, tomorrow is another day. Jayen 466 22:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Got the server booted up, coffee at the ready and ready to roll. I've added the google scholar search result to the pdfs as a ref, not sure what else to do. EricT ( talk) 09:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It's looking a bit better now. Should it have been "Institute for Cultural Research" -- currently have it as "The Institute ..." with a redirect from "Institute ...". Does it need moving (don't know how)? EricT ( talk) 11:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Have checked the UK Charity Commission and also the ICR's official web site and can confirm that the title is "The Institute for Cultural Research" with a leading "the". Institute for Cultural Research redirects and is also reserved for possible future disambiguation. Default sort is set to "Institute for Cultural Research, The". EricT ( talk) 11:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I've gone back to 1965 as the year in which the ICR was founded in Idries Shah, based on the sources given there. I think the confusion may stem from the fact that the ICR originally had another name -- Moore mentions SOURCE and SUFI. Are you following the GA review for that article? It's on the talk page, feel free to comment. Cheers, Jayen 466 14:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Also see comment on GA. Good luck and VERY well done! EricT ( talk) 15:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I don't know. I still see many ways in which the article could be better. Until last night, it did not even mention Langton Green. And finding those dratted sources, ideally some that agree with each other (!), is a real struggle at times. :-) Jayen 466 15:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh, I know what you mean about finding sources that agree, Jayen. Moore mentions that SOURCE was around before the ICR (and sounds like the one that became the ICR and SUFI became the SSS (my OR)). See paragraph 2 in The Institute for Cultural Research‎ which now dates the official adoption of Objects and Regulations. I guess (OR) that Shah founded the thing, then a while later went for charitable status? EricT ( talk) 18:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep ... welcome to the club of the exasperated :-) ... it was probably something like that, foundation in 1965, under one of the other names, and establishment as ICR in 1966. Perhaps we'll get to the bottom of it eventually. Jayen 466 18:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, re. GA review -- hang in there, looking good!

Have created: Institute for the Study of Human Knowledge. Cheers, EricT ( talk) 13:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

If you like it, you can maybe wikilink from IS? EricT ( talk) 14:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)