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Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did to List of climbers, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. This is especially important when dealing with biographies of living people, but applies to all Wikipedia articles. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you are already familiar with Wikipedia:Citing sources, please take this opportunity to add your reference to the article. Thank you. ww2censor ( talk) 02:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Please provide reliable secondary sources for your POV edits to Hawaiian sovereignty movement. Your user account appears to be used only to add unsourced POV to the article. — Viriditas | Talk 02:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I am new to Wikipedia and am in need of help with respect to the issues raised. As I understand it, your request is for a secondary source, which ought to be a reliable publication. At the same time, you reject the reference to the Grassroot Institute as a secondary source, even though 1) It is a reliable publication 2) It provides the full text of the original Native Hawaiian Study Commission report. Secondly, your idea that "we don't use the lead section in this way" is wholly subjective. In fact, the reference is germaine to the question of reparations, which is presented in the lead section as a foregone conclusion even though the congress settled the issue long ago. Finally, you call for a developing a "sourced section that directly discusses the Hawaiian sovereignty movement in relation to the point you are trying to make". That requirement was met when I added critical quotations from Rice to the pre-existing section entitled "backlash". You deleted that and you also deleted the link I added to the decision itself. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 04:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link; I'll review the material as you suggested. Please bear with me as I learn how to formulate the proper citations and references. I've asked for a "mentor" so that the content I'm hoping to add complies with all the rules of Wikipedia and informs readers as well. Kuykendall is from 1938, Daws from 1968, Kamakau from 1866, Malo and Ii also from the 19th century. Not only are those sources not outdated or irrelevant, they compose the critical body of work scholars interested in Hawaiian history will read, even though they are "old". The same holds true for Hanifin.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You cannot add controversial material to an article from a 500 page report without adding page numbers. Please do so. — Viriditas | Talk 05:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The relevant information is on page 45 but I don't know how to cite that yet. Hopefully my "mentor" will provide some assistance soon. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Pat Hanifin was a civil rights attorney advocating "sovereignty" for everyone regardless of race or ancestry. He ought not to be labeled as an opponent of Hawaiian "sovereignty" merely for pointing out that American citizens of Hawaiian ancestry, like all other citizens, already are "sovereign". By that, he meant that every adult citizen of the United States and Hawai'i shares in individual freedom of choice and collective political power. His opinion is on topic and neutral.
Thank you for the link to the "lead" section. A rough checklist of the section suggests these broad themes: the lead section should be central to the article as a whole, it should summarize the most important points, it should not tease the reader by hinting at startling facts without describing them, and it ought to include citations if likely to be challenged. By these standards, every addition I made ought to remain. In fact, the edits ought to run deeper.
For instance, the line, "In some instances the focus also includes redress from the United States for the 1893 overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani, and for what is seen as a prolonged military occupation...". The idea that Hawai'i has been under military rule for 115 years is a startling "fact". Moreover, by using "is seen", the author teases the reader into thinking that there is some factual basis or undisputed consensus for the allegation that "the military" is "occupying" Hawai'i. It's undisputed fact that in Hawai'i there are no troops quartered in houses and no threat of military action against the citizenry. If the author disputes this, a proper source ought to be cited. If it's merely an opinion, then according to lead section guidelines ("...the relative emphasis given to information in the lead will be reflected in the rest of the text), it ought to be balanced. In all fairness, the cited Native Hawaiian Study Commission Report ought to remain in the lead section, (as a "summary of important points"), not buried in obscurity elsewhere in the text.
Finally, my additions to the lead section clarify the claims of Hawaiian "sovereignty" advocates as recommended by the guidelines.("It [the lead section] should ...summarize the most important points"). For example, the line, "Most of these plans would restrict voting and holding office to an exclusive, hereditary group", concisely summarizes content found elsewhere in the text. If you dispute that line, then you would dispute most of what follows.
In conclusion, please refrain from "undoing" my additions. Thank you.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please provide sources for the quotes from Governor Cayetano and Governor Lingle. Also, please provide justification for characterizing these quotes as "apologies". Otherwise, they will be deleted as non-compliant with the neutral POV policy.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
{{helpme}}
I'm looking for help in cleaning up citations. Specifically, how to provide a link by a name other than the web page address. Thanks. --
Yosemitesam25 (
talk) 19:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
{{helpme}}
if you can't find what you need.--
Sunny910910 (
talk|
Contributions|
Guest) 20:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[http://www.google.ca this]
. I hope this helps.--
Sunny910910 (
talk|
Contributions|
Guest) 20:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Thanks Sunny, I'll try that. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 20:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please provide citations for: "As most groups are focused on some manner of international legal solution, many (but not all) proposed structures are based on the kingdom that existed in 1893, the logical basis being that the undoing of the illegalities of the 1893 invasion might legally necessitate a return to the pre-overthrow government that existed before 1893." Please provide a verifiable source of 1) That a court of law has found the overthrow to be "illegal" 2) That there was an "invasion". These are loaded terms and exceptional claims requiring further clarification. Thank you. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Viriditas: I was not asking you to do anything. The message was to anyone reading this page. It does appear as if someone has now added "citations" but they are just links to Lingle's and Cayetano's wikipedia pages and are not reliable, verifiable sources for the "direct quotes". So if anyone could update with a proper citation I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Viriditas: I just noticed you somehow added an entire section below with a point by point analysis. Very cool. I'm not sure how to add another new section for a response so I'll either read up on it or simply edit the new section with my responses. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 16:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. — Viriditas | Talk 04:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You added the following unsourced POV to the lead section of an encyclopedia article about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement:
The various factions split over how to define the group that will be treated better than everyone else
This is biased language that represents your personal POV and has no place in either the lead section or in the article. If you wish to find an author that you can attribute this opinion to, by all means find one, preferably in a secondary source. Then, add it to the appropriate section about opposition. I would like to remind you again, this article is not about criticism or opposition, but those views should be represented in line with NPOV and undue weight.
Most of these plans would restrict voting and holding office to an exclusive, hereditary group. Other definitions add political criteria to the racial criteria. One plan extends the privileged class to include persons of other races who pass a test of political correctness defined by members of the racial elite. Another proposal defines a hereditary aristocracy consisting of all the descendants of the citizens of the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893. That excludes the descendants of the Asian immigrants who constituted most of the Kingdom's population in 1893 but who were not citizens. It also excludes everyone whose family arrived later.
You were asked to provide sources for this POV statement. Why haven't you?
02/12/08 Hello Viriditas: I re-inserted the second blockquote mentioned above and provided a secondary source via an in-line citation. To the extent that it represents a point of view, it represents the point of view of the sovereignty movement, not the opposition. Also, it provides the general reader with a quick overview of how sovereignty would work in Hawai'i. The author was a native born Hawaiian, and a graduate of Saint Louis (Honolulu), Notre Dame (1977 magna cum laude), Harvard Law School (cum laude 1980), and Harvards John F Kennedy School of Government. He was also an adjunct professor at the University of Hawaii.More about him can be found here -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please point out any percieved bias here by refuting the merits of the statement rather than by attacking him. For instance, you might attempt to demonstrate that sovereignty advocates want nothing of the sort of sovereignty described. If so, please cite a source and describe how they define sovereignty, if not in the way offered in the text. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Although the Native Hawaiian Study Commission of the United States Congress in its 1983 final report (pg. 27, pgs. 333-348) [2] [3]found no historical, legal, or moral obligation for the U.S. government to provide reparations, assistance, or group rights to Native Hawaiians, the movement continues to view both the overthrow and annexation as illegal, and holds the U.S. government responsible for these actions.
The text above originally represented the Hawaiian position. With your additions, the lead now represents the opinion of Hanifin, an opponent of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. This is undue weight. This article is not about the opponents or the critics of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. While such views are acceptable for inclusion in the appropriate place, your distortion of the article with opinions from opponents is not acceptable.
02/12/08 Hello Viriditas and anyone else reading this: The disputed text is consistent with Wikipedia's guidance with respect to creating a "lead section". Specifically: "It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any". Your continual reversions remove any mention of controversy except to note that there is a controversy. That violates Wikipedia's policy of describing notable controversies in the lead section. Secondly, the lead section is exactly the place to include the text because it makes repeated mention of "redress" and "reparations". Excluding the text at the outset and burying it elsewhere in the article would lend undue weight to the POV that claims of reparations are credible, pending, and imminent - even though Congress settled the matter long ago. Excluding it deprives the reader of knowledge that directly relates to the issue. Finally, the text clearly briefly describes because it is is only half a sentence in length. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In reaching its decision, the court wrote that "the ancestral inquiry mandated by the State is forbidden by the Fifteenth Amendment for the further reason that the use of racial classifications is corruptive of the whole legal order democratic elections seek to preserve....Distinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry are by their very nature odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality".
Again, this is another selective quote from a primary source document. Unless you can show how this directly relates to a neutral, secondary source, your selection of this quote appears to be based on your own personal POV.
Of further concern is the implication that claims for hereditary political power are connected to land claims. Proponents of sovereignty assume that if they can show that American presence at the time of the 1893 Revolution was unjust then it automatically follows that the United States owes enormous reparations in cash and land to Hawaiians. There were three kinds of land in 1893: private lands, Crown lands, and Government lands. No private lands were seized as a result of the 1893 Revolution. Crown lands in 1893 belonged not to any individual or to any group of individuals but to the “office” of the Sovereign. In 1893, The Government of the Republic of Hawai'i provided explicitly that the former Crown lands were Government lands. The Crown lands in 1893 were the last remnant of lands seized by Lili'uokalani's royal predecessor Kamehameha I in aggressive warfare. People who believe that title to the land today is invalid because it is founded on conquest may be hard put to explain why Lili'uokalani's claim was not equally invalid. The Hawaiian Kingdom Government lands in 1893 were controlled ultimately by the Legislature. Private individuals had no powers, rights or privileges to use government land without Government authorization or to decide how it was to be used. If Hawaiians had any rights or powers regarding Government land, they had only the political right and power to participate in controlling the Government. Legally, the land belonging to the Hawaiian Government in 1898 has passed to the U.S. Government and back to the State of Hawai'i.
You added the above unsourced text to the Backlash section. This is problematic since you claim to represent opinions as fact. — Viriditas | Talk 07:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at Wikipedia's conflict of interest guideline. I have recently noticed that you have repeated the same words that Kenneth R. Conklin has written on his web pages. It's also an interesting coincidence that you chose the username "Yosemitesam" considering the long beard that both Yosemite Sam and Conklin wear, which is not exactly common in Hawaii. I will assume for the moment that you are not Conklin and merely picked up the same information from his articles, but you should be aware of the COI guideline in case you have any relationship to the anti-Hawaiian sovereignty movement. — Viriditas | Talk 08:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. After reviewing the policy, I've concluded that there is no need to recuse myself from editing these pages. However, one section stood out as particularly problematic: editing Wikipedia is strongly discouraged if "you expect to derive monetary or other benefits or considerations from editing Wikipedia...by being a stakeholder ...of an organisation about which you are writing". Does this mean that beneficiaries of OHA programs or Hawaiian Homes or a separatist movement seeking to acquire land and money from the United States or the State of Hawai'i for the exclusive group "Hawaiians" or "native Hawaiians" ought to recuse themselves from editing these pages?
That's hilarious - the links to Yosemite Sam and Mr. Conklin. LOL
Yes, there is a resemblance... -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 17:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"This says, right off the bat, that you are connected to the same "think tank" as them, which would mean you are violating the COI policy on Wikipedia. —Viriditas | Talk 06:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)"
Hello Viriditas: To enhance readability, I've copied your statement to this "conflict of interest" area. This really intrigues me and I have many questions.
First, what "think tank"?
Second, should I recuse myself if I went to Kamehameha? Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
What if I have a step-sister who is Native Hawaiian but is "anti-sovereignty" and opposed to the Akaka bill?
What about if I have blood relations with whom I am estranged and separate from personally and financially who are attorneys active in the movement? One stands to benefit from ceded lands (pro-sovereignty, anti-Akaka), and the other would not reap any financial or personal gain (pro-bono work "anti-sovereignty" and "anti-Akaka bill")
Hawai'i is so diverse and integrated that it's hard to know how to interpret the conflict of interest policy. I've been proceeding up to this point on common sense but I would like your interpretation (and others) on the specifics above. Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 13:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You mentioned that name earlier instead of referring to it as the Native Hawaiian Study Commission. When you have time, I'd really like input from you or others regarding my other questions about conflict of interest. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You need to use the talk page to discuss your edits before reverting. The editor who adds material has the responsibility to defend that material after they have been reverted. I suggest you read the policies and guidelines regarding NPOV before continuing to edit war your POV into the article. You write, "Please talk out recent reversions on the merits on my talk page." That's not how it works. You added back in the same material, material you were asked to provide secondary sources for, and material you were asked to consider changing after considering Wikipedia's NPOV policy with regards to undue weight. You continue to try and frame this article in terms of its opposition which is neither neutral or acceptable. Since you are the editor who introduced this material, it is your job to defend it. It is not my job to defend my reversion of your material, which I have already shown is biased and lacking neutral secondary sources. — Viriditas | Talk 20:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I did use the talk page to discuss my edits before reverting. Perhaps you missed them. Again, being new to Wikipedia, rather than creating a new section,(which I'm unfamiliar with) I simply inserted comments in the section above. I wrote the date 02/12/08 right before my responses. Please read them as they provide more than enough justification for my edits.
When you say I've created a single purpose account I don't know what you mean. What other kinds of accounts are there? I am one person with one account.
Do you agree that Wikipedia policy calls for a lead section to "briefly describe its notable controversies"? Describing notable controversies is different than simply noting that there is a controversy.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: I don't think I responded below to something you mentioned above so I'm adding this in *now*. You say that I have, "cited him [Mr. Comklin], word for word, from his website without giving him credit". Isn't citing someone giving them credit? I'm not sure what you mean. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC) Or maybe you don't mean "in-line citation" but that I've "quoted" Mr. Conklin. I don't think I've quoted Mr. Conklin. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
That is not a quote. Please check again. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and on the other issue about a conflict of interest. Is there a way to continue that discussion above instead of here? That is, in the "conflict of interest" section? This area is full and seems to be about editing? Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: Thank you for the link to the SPA section. Here are a few things that I found: 1) Communal standards such as don't bite the newcomers apply to all users. Be courteous. Focus on the subject matter, not the person. If they are given fair treatment, they may also become more involved over time. 2)If a new user immediately participates in a discussion without an edit history in the area... or simply a user who has seen something of interest (a template such as AFD or an article), and wishes to contribute. For this reason, statements regarding motives are not recommended without an examination of the user's edit history. The term should be used descriptively and should not be read pejoratively unless a specific non-neutral agenda is clearly established. Users should be informed of relevant policies and content guidelines in a civil and courteous manner, especially if a tag will be applied to their comment.
Regarding 1) I've mentioned to you and all readers that I am a newcomer to Wikipedia. I did try to edit another article before I found this one but my additions were removed because I didn't know how to find or cite a source. You'll see it (I think) at the very top of this page. When I started making edits, I didn't even know there was a talk page. I was just scolling around when I saw your first comments and then figured out how to respond. You and someone named "Sunny" have provided me with help that I appreciate. I appreciate your courtesy. Early on you asked me if I was one Mr. Kirschel and then if I was one Mr. Conklin. I hope we can focus on the content and not the person. I'd be happy to credit Mr. Kirshel or Mr. Comklin or anyone I've inadvertantly quoted or plagarised. I read so much on this topic that when I start to write it flows out like it went in. Can you point out where I've quoted Mr. Comklin? Please rest assured I am acting in good faith and with the best intentions. Regarding 2) I am simply a user who has seen something of interest and wishes to contribute. I've read Kuykendall's trilogy, Shoal of Time, Broken Trust, Ka Po'e Kahiko, Hanifin, Sullivan, Crawford, Fein, Abercrombie, Kanahele, Koani foundation...the list goes on and on...and like most people, I have friends and acquaintances with whom I discuss and debate these issues. Sometimes I do think I ought to widen my interests but I guess I just like focusing on a "single purpose".
The guidelines clearly state that the term SPA should be used descriptivly unless a non-neutral agenda is established. You've mentioned a few times that I do not have a neutral point of view. Naturally, this topic itself is controversial and people are bound to have different opinions. Please point out specific edits that are unacceptable and cite how and why they conflict with Wikipedia policies. For instance, when I brought to your attention the fact that Wikipedia policy calls for describing notable controversies in the lead section, we agreed upon doing just that. Just alleging that I do not have a neutral point of view might not be productive. I need to know how any contribution I make will do a disservice to a reader expecting to be informed about a controversial issue in a non-biased way(unless there is some other standard that ought to apply).
It's worth mentioning again that you never questioned the veracity or verifiability of my additions to the lead section. In fact, when I quoted Hanifin,
"Other definitions add political criteria to the racial criteria. One plan extends the privileged class to include persons of other races who pass a test of political correctness defined by members of the racial elite. Another proposal defines a hereditary aristocracy consisting of all the descendants of the citizens of the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893. That excludes the descendants of the Asian immigrants who constituted most of the Kingdom's population in 1893 but who were not citizens. It also excludes everyone whose family arrived later. [1] The Office of Hawaiian Affairs"
your objection was not the content or the truth of the statement but who wrote it. In fact, these are the very ends sought by the "sovereignty movement" so it would seem logical to put it as plainly and simply as he did. Instead of refuting the content, you seemed to prefer alleging that Hanifin was an opponent of "sovereignty". When I mentioned that his position is pro sovereignty but that he objected to something "extra" in the "name" of sovereignty, it evidently did little to assuage your concern.
Thank you for once again raising the issue of COI. This time you are reminding me of the importance of any financial conflict of interest I may have that would cause me to recuse myself from contributing on this topic. There is nothing in the conflict of interest policy, including any financial interest, that would cause me to recuse myself. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 04:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I object to a checkuser. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, by the way, I'd still like to hear from you or anyone with respect to the lead section. I'd like to include wording that complies with Wikipedia policy to "briefly describe notable controversies". Because the policy explicitly states that notable controversies ought to be described, I think it's only fair that at least some of my prior text be restored. Thanks in advance. --
Yosemitesam25 (
talk) 02:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: I'm glad that we agree that the policy expressly calls for a description of notable controversies in the lead section and that you'll be editing towards that end. Clearly, the policy is a good one.
Please stop reverting to POV one-sided version. You've already violated the WP:3RR policy and may be blocked for it. -- MPerel 07:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
If you are inclined, please justify your reversion. You claim that I am not neutral, please provide specific points rather than simply stating a claim. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 07:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I will mind the policy but you are now a party to the attempt to find common ground. Unless you provide specific informaion with respect to where and how I've violated NPOV, finding common ground will be very tough. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 08:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
No worries, we're all passionate about the issues. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Yosemitesam25,
I notice you've been popping up on my watchlist a lot recently in relation to edits to Hawaiian sovereignty movement, but it was only today that I got a chance to look through your work. I have to say I agree with Viriditas about your edits in that I don't believe they represent a neutral point of view. From reading through the conversation above, though, I'm a little concerned that you might not have a full grasp of what we mean by that, so I hope you'll indulge me if I try to explain it a little bit better.
Within the policy on neutral point of view is a section on undue weight, which refers to the act of providing overly detailed information on a given point of view or positioning this point of view in such a way as to make it seem more important than it is. This is not to say that articles should shy away from discussing controversies, simply that controversies should be presented in such a manner that they do not overwhelm the encyclopedic nature of the article. Neutrality is one of the founding principles of Wikipedia and must be preserved in order to build a credible encyclopedia.
That being said, I'm pleased to see that you've calmed down a bit and hope that we can work together on improving the article. -- jonny- m t 08:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jonny-mt: Thanks, I'll look over the links. And yes, the policies seem odd, especially the part about the lead section. Why does the lead section policy call for a description of the controversies if everyone agrees that there should just be mention that a controversy exists? Are you an administrator for Wikipedia? Thanks for taking the time to help me out, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 08:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jonny-mt: Thanks so much for guiding me and helping me understand.
Here is the policy on reliable sources:
"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.[4] Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources".
Why doesn't a constitutional attorney who writes scholarly articles with careful citations and who is subject to intense scrutiny by his peers, the media, and the bar meet the standard for "reliable sources"?
Perhaps you could also help me further. The guidelines go on to say,
"In general...the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is".
The issue is reliabliity.
But you seem to add a further requirement. Are you saying or implying that all sources have to be "neutral"? Please help me out here and show me where the policy requires this.
The policy describes "questionable sources" like this:
"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking"
The issue is reliability.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 14:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas and thank you for your suggestions. I don't really feel comfortable writing anything entitled "Opposition to the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement" and don't know how to start a new article anyway, at least not now.
Since millions, perhaps billions, of dollars are at stake in this issue, not to mention political power, (those are two reasons the topic is "controversial"), I thought it would be perfecly acceptable to "briefly describe the notable controversies" in the lead section - as allowed for and encouraged by Wikipedia policy. But that policy was not adhered to when my mention of the Native Hawaiian Study Commission was reverted, thereby unduly weighting the article.
So I'm working on re-writing the entire article in a way that will be in proportion to the controversy. By the way, you had mentioned that you were re-writing the article yourself. How did it go?
In the meantime, I would appreciate any input you might have on my post in the "conflict of interest" section. Thanks,-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 16:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas:
To summarize, you've referred to me as "Jere" ("Jere, you know very well that I can have your account shut down. Now, either start playing by the rules or I will bring you to the COI noticeboard. It's your decision. —Viriditas | Talk 03:28, 13 February 2008 UTC"), asked me if I know "Jere" (BTW, do you know User:JereKrischel? —Viriditas | Talk 04:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)"), asked me if I was Mr. Comklin(" Are you Mr. Conklin? —Viriditas | Talk"), asked me to consent to something called a "usercheck" ("And if I request a checkuser to determine whether your edits are coming from the same account as Mr. Kirschel, you will have no objection?"), and now assert that I am a "person from the Grassroots Institute" ("You are not the first person from the Grassroots Institute to try to do this".21:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)). You've also said, "This says, right off the bat, that you are connected to the same "think tank" as them, which would mean you are violating the COI policy on Wikipedia. —Viriditas | Talk 06:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)".
The COI of interest policy clearly states:
"...using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is frowned upon."
Wikipedia policy also asks members of the community to assume good faith:
"To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. In allowing anyone to edit, we work from an assumption that most people are trying to help the project, not hurt it."
Have I ever asked you to reveal who you are, asked you to consent to a "usercheck", who you are associated with, told you that you represented an outside, conflicted organization or asked you about any potential conflicts you might have? No.
Hawai'i is integrated and diverse. Blood relations are varied and mixed. There are people of all "races" on both sides of this issue, some more than others.
I asked you earlier:
"Does this [the conflict of interest policy] mean that beneficiaries of OHA programs or Hawaiian Homes or a separatist movement seeking to acquire land and money from the United States or the State of Hawai'i for the exclusive group "Hawaiians" or "native Hawaiians" ought to recuse themselves from editing these pages?
Your response was:
"Yes, absolutely. Are you Mr. Conklin?" —Viriditas | Talk
Your position seems to be that anyone with a single drop of Hawaiian blood is conflicted and ought not to edit here. The issue is intriguing. If that is the prescription we all must follow then a beneficiary to an "affirmative action program" would recuse himself or herself from editing a page on the controversial topic of "affirmative action".
In good faith I turned to you and other members of the community with other questions about conflicts:
"...should I recuse myself if I went to Kamehameha? Thanks, --Yosemitesam25 (talk) 12:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)"
"What if I have a step-sister who is Native Hawaiian but is "anti-sovereignty" and opposed to the Akaka bill?"
"What about if I have blood relations with whom I am estranged and separate from personally and financially who are attorneys active in the movement? One stands to benefit from ceded lands (pro-sovereignty, anti-Akaka), and the other would not reap any financial or personal gain (pro-bono work "anti-sovereignty" and "anti-Akaka bill")"
If you have time, I'd really like some input on those questions.
Secondly, I'm still hoping to improve the "lead " section (and, at the same time, to follow guidelines set and encouraged by Wikipedia) by "describing notable controversies". As you said, "Controversies should certainly be described".
I'm thankful for all the guidance you've provided so far and I hope we can make this article much better over time. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 23:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You have been warned twice about the 3RR, [4] [5] so you are aware of it. Now I am telling you to take a step back and think about why your edits are not being accepted. Four editors have asked you to take a break and discuss your material. Please do so. — Viriditas | Talk 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was carefully sourced, neutral material reverted? First, Wikipedia policy was not adhered to by not allowing controversial material to be described in the lead section. Second, it was suggested that that I build up that material in the "opposition" section. But when I did that, it was reverted even though it was carefully sourced and neutral. Please be specific rather than simply alleging NPOV. Thanks -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 02:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's start with your most recent example "Hawai'i is not under Military Occupation". Who are you responding to here? Once you identify who you are addressing, you begin to write about this in several ways. One, you can use the integrative approach, which is difficult, but the most favored method. Find a section where a prominent group or person claims that Hawaii is under military occupation and respond to it there. The reason this is more difficult than a standalone section, is because you actually have to address the topic. Who is claiming that there are soldiers quartered in citizen's homes in Hawai'i? You write, "All adult citizens of the State of Hawai'i are free to vote for their representatives, a right which many did not have in 1893." But there was no state in 1893, so the comparison is not valid. You see how your material is problematic? This is adversarial, POV pushing, and we don't write like that on Wikipedia. I can go on, but hopefully you can get an idea of where to go with this. Start with the integrated approach because you will find it more successful in the end. In the end, what you really want to do is represent both sides, and practice writing about views you personally disagree with on the topic. First and foremost, this topic is about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. It is not about minority, adversarial POV, but some of those views should be represented in the article in proportion to their relevance. It may also help if you find a good or featured article that is representative of a similar topic, and use it as your baseline. — Viriditas | Talk 02:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is some sort of "edit conflict"...I think we are both using this page at the same time
If you are really trying to "integrate" sections, then why was I not allowed to add even one half of a sentence "describing notable controversies" (as per Wikipedia policy) to the lead section? If you're so concerned that half a sentence is somehow "undue weight", then please consider adding carefully sourced material to restore a perceived imbalance rather then just wholesale destruction of any semblance of balance? Surely you are more than capable. And surely a stronger case for sovereignty can be made than what's currently written.
If you want me to add "a paragpaph, and I'll show you how to do it" then fine, I appreciate the help. But I don't need an entire paragraph. Lets start with the half sentence you would not accept in the lead section. It was something like this:
"Although the Native Hawaiian Study Commission in its 1983 final report found no legal or moral grounds for compensation to Native Hawaiians, the sovereignty movement continues to seek redress from the united states for what it sees as an illegal occupation and holds the us gov responsible".
That's just a paraphrase.
So, lets start with that please. Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 02:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that the edit warring started up again, I submitted a request for page protection that was subsequently granted. The article is fully protected for five days, which means that only administrators can edit it (and they will only do so per request and to remove potentially libelous material). I suggest we use this time to try and come to an understanding about what is and is not NPOV and hash out a positive path going forward. -- jonny- m t 05:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I found your recent edit to the "Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom" article rather problematic, but agree that the claim needed a citation (it had one before but it was stripped out in an edit war last year). Next time you find a statement that you feel needs citation, please add " citation needed" (note the coding) rather than simply stripping out material. Mahalo. Arjuna ( talk) 03:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
My regrets, but you've been reported for violation of 3RR on the Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom article. Arjuna ( talk) 21:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion about the Overthrow article should continue on that article's talk page. Please do not use my talk page for this purpose. Arjuna ( talk) 20:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi JK! Arjuna ( talk) 22:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove the COI tag from articles. Neutrality issues are implicit in the tag. Also, please stop removing the Hawaii state flag from a Hawaii template. Thank you. — Viriditas | Talk 06:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
RE: COI. Please see the talk page on the overthrow article. I offered to answer COI questions but that offer was rejected as an "unacceptable attitude". RE: flag. The articles are about the State of Hawai'i, a part of the United States. Therefore, the United States flag is appropriate. Regards,-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 14:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
"I do not go around making facile accusations in this respect". Actually, you've built up quite a history of exactly that. The latest was when you accused me of having a COI and then rejected my offer to answer COI questions, describing the offer as an "unacceptable attitude". Before that it was something to do with 3RR, something I wouldn't care to "report" anyone for. Now you're presuming to speak for an entire racial separatist movement while laying claim to a flag that never represented a Hawaiian only government. You want to display the Hawai'i State flag? Fine, an overwhelming majority -94%- of voters were in favor of Statehood. You want to burn the U.S. flag because you think supporting the U.S is the same as being against Hawaiians? Fine, burn the flag. This is your right under the Constitution as it should be. You want to continue name calling and launching grenades? Fine, I'll burn it off in the mountains. But my 2 cents is that you may want to take it a little slower here and ease up just a bit. Viriditas reminded me of that at the start.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 23:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
WHAT are you on about? I'm not a supporter of Hawaiian sovereignty, and not only have I never professed to "speak for" them, but in fact I disagree with them rather strongly. So you are way off base in lots of respects. I am simply interested in accuracy and NPOV and don't like someone vandalizing an article / template. It's most unfortunate for you that your credibility has reached zero, and if you don't like it, that's no one's fault but your own. Btw, I quite like the American flag, and in the future I'll not even feel the need to defend myself from such laughable accusations. But I hope you feel better after your little rant. Arjuna ( talk) 00:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Yosemite, we seem to be stuck in a rut. I have submitted (and been granted) multiple protection requests in relation to your edit warring on Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom and Hawaiian sovereignty movement. When these requests are granted, you sit back for five days, don't engage in discussion, and then return to edit warring to try and get the version you like.
This constant edit warring just gets us right back where we started, and I think we're all getting a little tired of it. So I am asking you this as a fellow editor--please take it to the talk page. Make a proposal outlining what you want to remove and why. If you feel some sources are unbalanced, explain why. If you feel there is too much information on a given topic in an article, explain what it is and why it needs to go (take a look at Talk:Hawaiian sovereignty movement for a good exchange between User:Viriditas and I). Believe it or not, we are capable of exploring multiple viewpoints--we just don't react well when they're rammed down our throats.
I'm asking you this not only because I want a neutral, well-written article on these topics but also because the next step is to have the articles protected for however long it takes to resolve the dispute and take this to dispute resolution. And I don't know about you, but I have other plans for how I'd like to spend my time on Wikipedia. -- jonny- m t 01:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
You have violated 3RR on [Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom] and will be reported. Arjuna ( talk) 10:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Yosemitesam25 ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
Hi Scarin: My request is to also block Arjuna. I don't know how to file a report and don't even care to but in this case, in fairness, reviewing his edits may be worth a look. I may be wrong but I think he reverted my edits 3 times. Thanks
Decline reason:
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Ok, Thank you for your time.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
After getting some advice at WP:ANI, I have decided to offer something that might stop the edit warring on Hawaiian related articles. 1RR means you are only allowed to revert once. If another user undoes that revert, you are not allowed to revert again. This is a completely voluntary venture but I would highly recommend it; if you show that you're edit warring again I will block you again and request consensus for a Hawaiian article topic ban (That means no editing Hawaiian articles until disputes have been resolved). If you decided to accept the 1RR, please use discussion to work through that article's problems rather than reverting. Remember, it's voluntary, but I'd highly recommend it. Take care, friend. Scarian Call me Pat 11:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi YosemiteSam25. The reason several editors have noticed an apparent COI regarding your editing is that your edits appear to be promoting the interests of Grassroot Institute. Are you in any way associated with Grassroot Institute or with any other similar anti-sovereignty group? -- MPerel 00:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, first off, I'm on wiki-break. And yosemite is not known to me as Ken Conklin, or anyone else who works for the Grassroot Institute - and I pretty much know them all. He certainly isn't me. So we can end that whole line of speculation right there.
That being said, Yosemite, Arjuna and Viriditas are about the most honestly driven wikipedians I know, and they're trying to be nice. Really, they are. The whole "are you Jere" question aside (I suppose I am known for my sympathies, but c'mon guys, you know I'm always happy to attribute my name to my work), you need to pay a bit more consideration to their comments. I appreciate your POV, but you are a long way from being an effective editor, and both Arjuna and Viriditas can help.
Now THAT being said, yes, we should apply the same criteria for WP:COI to people actively involved in the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, or OHA, or pushing for the Akaka Bill. This is not to say that they couldn't be good editors, but ANYONE with a strong POV on this issue must be incredibly vigilant about respecting WP:NPOV. It is something we all struggle with.
So please, let's not blame me, or the Grassroot Institute, or Ken Conklin, or anyone else for this conflict - this is a new wikipedia user who is now hearing from both sides of the issue that their edits could be more productive if they were a bit more considerate. And by "considerate", I mean give the other side the most benefit of the doubt you can stretch, and if that isn't enough, stretch farther. WP:AGF helps a lot, but it does take time.
Mahalo for your kokua yosemite. If anyone wants to contact me further, please email, since I'm not checking wikipedia on a regular basis for the next few months at least. -- JereKrischel ( talk) 03:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did to List of climbers, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. This is especially important when dealing with biographies of living people, but applies to all Wikipedia articles. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you are already familiar with Wikipedia:Citing sources, please take this opportunity to add your reference to the article. Thank you. ww2censor ( talk) 02:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Please provide reliable secondary sources for your POV edits to Hawaiian sovereignty movement. Your user account appears to be used only to add unsourced POV to the article. — Viriditas | Talk 02:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I am new to Wikipedia and am in need of help with respect to the issues raised. As I understand it, your request is for a secondary source, which ought to be a reliable publication. At the same time, you reject the reference to the Grassroot Institute as a secondary source, even though 1) It is a reliable publication 2) It provides the full text of the original Native Hawaiian Study Commission report. Secondly, your idea that "we don't use the lead section in this way" is wholly subjective. In fact, the reference is germaine to the question of reparations, which is presented in the lead section as a foregone conclusion even though the congress settled the issue long ago. Finally, you call for a developing a "sourced section that directly discusses the Hawaiian sovereignty movement in relation to the point you are trying to make". That requirement was met when I added critical quotations from Rice to the pre-existing section entitled "backlash". You deleted that and you also deleted the link I added to the decision itself. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 04:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link; I'll review the material as you suggested. Please bear with me as I learn how to formulate the proper citations and references. I've asked for a "mentor" so that the content I'm hoping to add complies with all the rules of Wikipedia and informs readers as well. Kuykendall is from 1938, Daws from 1968, Kamakau from 1866, Malo and Ii also from the 19th century. Not only are those sources not outdated or irrelevant, they compose the critical body of work scholars interested in Hawaiian history will read, even though they are "old". The same holds true for Hanifin.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You cannot add controversial material to an article from a 500 page report without adding page numbers. Please do so. — Viriditas | Talk 05:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The relevant information is on page 45 but I don't know how to cite that yet. Hopefully my "mentor" will provide some assistance soon. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Pat Hanifin was a civil rights attorney advocating "sovereignty" for everyone regardless of race or ancestry. He ought not to be labeled as an opponent of Hawaiian "sovereignty" merely for pointing out that American citizens of Hawaiian ancestry, like all other citizens, already are "sovereign". By that, he meant that every adult citizen of the United States and Hawai'i shares in individual freedom of choice and collective political power. His opinion is on topic and neutral.
Thank you for the link to the "lead" section. A rough checklist of the section suggests these broad themes: the lead section should be central to the article as a whole, it should summarize the most important points, it should not tease the reader by hinting at startling facts without describing them, and it ought to include citations if likely to be challenged. By these standards, every addition I made ought to remain. In fact, the edits ought to run deeper.
For instance, the line, "In some instances the focus also includes redress from the United States for the 1893 overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani, and for what is seen as a prolonged military occupation...". The idea that Hawai'i has been under military rule for 115 years is a startling "fact". Moreover, by using "is seen", the author teases the reader into thinking that there is some factual basis or undisputed consensus for the allegation that "the military" is "occupying" Hawai'i. It's undisputed fact that in Hawai'i there are no troops quartered in houses and no threat of military action against the citizenry. If the author disputes this, a proper source ought to be cited. If it's merely an opinion, then according to lead section guidelines ("...the relative emphasis given to information in the lead will be reflected in the rest of the text), it ought to be balanced. In all fairness, the cited Native Hawaiian Study Commission Report ought to remain in the lead section, (as a "summary of important points"), not buried in obscurity elsewhere in the text.
Finally, my additions to the lead section clarify the claims of Hawaiian "sovereignty" advocates as recommended by the guidelines.("It [the lead section] should ...summarize the most important points"). For example, the line, "Most of these plans would restrict voting and holding office to an exclusive, hereditary group", concisely summarizes content found elsewhere in the text. If you dispute that line, then you would dispute most of what follows.
In conclusion, please refrain from "undoing" my additions. Thank you.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please provide sources for the quotes from Governor Cayetano and Governor Lingle. Also, please provide justification for characterizing these quotes as "apologies". Otherwise, they will be deleted as non-compliant with the neutral POV policy.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
{{helpme}}
I'm looking for help in cleaning up citations. Specifically, how to provide a link by a name other than the web page address. Thanks. --
Yosemitesam25 (
talk) 19:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
{{helpme}}
if you can't find what you need.--
Sunny910910 (
talk|
Contributions|
Guest) 20:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[http://www.google.ca this]
. I hope this helps.--
Sunny910910 (
talk|
Contributions|
Guest) 20:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Thanks Sunny, I'll try that. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 20:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please provide citations for: "As most groups are focused on some manner of international legal solution, many (but not all) proposed structures are based on the kingdom that existed in 1893, the logical basis being that the undoing of the illegalities of the 1893 invasion might legally necessitate a return to the pre-overthrow government that existed before 1893." Please provide a verifiable source of 1) That a court of law has found the overthrow to be "illegal" 2) That there was an "invasion". These are loaded terms and exceptional claims requiring further clarification. Thank you. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Viriditas: I was not asking you to do anything. The message was to anyone reading this page. It does appear as if someone has now added "citations" but they are just links to Lingle's and Cayetano's wikipedia pages and are not reliable, verifiable sources for the "direct quotes". So if anyone could update with a proper citation I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Viriditas: I just noticed you somehow added an entire section below with a point by point analysis. Very cool. I'm not sure how to add another new section for a response so I'll either read up on it or simply edit the new section with my responses. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 16:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. — Viriditas | Talk 04:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You added the following unsourced POV to the lead section of an encyclopedia article about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement:
The various factions split over how to define the group that will be treated better than everyone else
This is biased language that represents your personal POV and has no place in either the lead section or in the article. If you wish to find an author that you can attribute this opinion to, by all means find one, preferably in a secondary source. Then, add it to the appropriate section about opposition. I would like to remind you again, this article is not about criticism or opposition, but those views should be represented in line with NPOV and undue weight.
Most of these plans would restrict voting and holding office to an exclusive, hereditary group. Other definitions add political criteria to the racial criteria. One plan extends the privileged class to include persons of other races who pass a test of political correctness defined by members of the racial elite. Another proposal defines a hereditary aristocracy consisting of all the descendants of the citizens of the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893. That excludes the descendants of the Asian immigrants who constituted most of the Kingdom's population in 1893 but who were not citizens. It also excludes everyone whose family arrived later.
You were asked to provide sources for this POV statement. Why haven't you?
02/12/08 Hello Viriditas: I re-inserted the second blockquote mentioned above and provided a secondary source via an in-line citation. To the extent that it represents a point of view, it represents the point of view of the sovereignty movement, not the opposition. Also, it provides the general reader with a quick overview of how sovereignty would work in Hawai'i. The author was a native born Hawaiian, and a graduate of Saint Louis (Honolulu), Notre Dame (1977 magna cum laude), Harvard Law School (cum laude 1980), and Harvards John F Kennedy School of Government. He was also an adjunct professor at the University of Hawaii.More about him can be found here -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please point out any percieved bias here by refuting the merits of the statement rather than by attacking him. For instance, you might attempt to demonstrate that sovereignty advocates want nothing of the sort of sovereignty described. If so, please cite a source and describe how they define sovereignty, if not in the way offered in the text. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Although the Native Hawaiian Study Commission of the United States Congress in its 1983 final report (pg. 27, pgs. 333-348) [2] [3]found no historical, legal, or moral obligation for the U.S. government to provide reparations, assistance, or group rights to Native Hawaiians, the movement continues to view both the overthrow and annexation as illegal, and holds the U.S. government responsible for these actions.
The text above originally represented the Hawaiian position. With your additions, the lead now represents the opinion of Hanifin, an opponent of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. This is undue weight. This article is not about the opponents or the critics of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. While such views are acceptable for inclusion in the appropriate place, your distortion of the article with opinions from opponents is not acceptable.
02/12/08 Hello Viriditas and anyone else reading this: The disputed text is consistent with Wikipedia's guidance with respect to creating a "lead section". Specifically: "It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any". Your continual reversions remove any mention of controversy except to note that there is a controversy. That violates Wikipedia's policy of describing notable controversies in the lead section. Secondly, the lead section is exactly the place to include the text because it makes repeated mention of "redress" and "reparations". Excluding the text at the outset and burying it elsewhere in the article would lend undue weight to the POV that claims of reparations are credible, pending, and imminent - even though Congress settled the matter long ago. Excluding it deprives the reader of knowledge that directly relates to the issue. Finally, the text clearly briefly describes because it is is only half a sentence in length. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In reaching its decision, the court wrote that "the ancestral inquiry mandated by the State is forbidden by the Fifteenth Amendment for the further reason that the use of racial classifications is corruptive of the whole legal order democratic elections seek to preserve....Distinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry are by their very nature odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality".
Again, this is another selective quote from a primary source document. Unless you can show how this directly relates to a neutral, secondary source, your selection of this quote appears to be based on your own personal POV.
Of further concern is the implication that claims for hereditary political power are connected to land claims. Proponents of sovereignty assume that if they can show that American presence at the time of the 1893 Revolution was unjust then it automatically follows that the United States owes enormous reparations in cash and land to Hawaiians. There were three kinds of land in 1893: private lands, Crown lands, and Government lands. No private lands were seized as a result of the 1893 Revolution. Crown lands in 1893 belonged not to any individual or to any group of individuals but to the “office” of the Sovereign. In 1893, The Government of the Republic of Hawai'i provided explicitly that the former Crown lands were Government lands. The Crown lands in 1893 were the last remnant of lands seized by Lili'uokalani's royal predecessor Kamehameha I in aggressive warfare. People who believe that title to the land today is invalid because it is founded on conquest may be hard put to explain why Lili'uokalani's claim was not equally invalid. The Hawaiian Kingdom Government lands in 1893 were controlled ultimately by the Legislature. Private individuals had no powers, rights or privileges to use government land without Government authorization or to decide how it was to be used. If Hawaiians had any rights or powers regarding Government land, they had only the political right and power to participate in controlling the Government. Legally, the land belonging to the Hawaiian Government in 1898 has passed to the U.S. Government and back to the State of Hawai'i.
You added the above unsourced text to the Backlash section. This is problematic since you claim to represent opinions as fact. — Viriditas | Talk 07:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at Wikipedia's conflict of interest guideline. I have recently noticed that you have repeated the same words that Kenneth R. Conklin has written on his web pages. It's also an interesting coincidence that you chose the username "Yosemitesam" considering the long beard that both Yosemite Sam and Conklin wear, which is not exactly common in Hawaii. I will assume for the moment that you are not Conklin and merely picked up the same information from his articles, but you should be aware of the COI guideline in case you have any relationship to the anti-Hawaiian sovereignty movement. — Viriditas | Talk 08:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. After reviewing the policy, I've concluded that there is no need to recuse myself from editing these pages. However, one section stood out as particularly problematic: editing Wikipedia is strongly discouraged if "you expect to derive monetary or other benefits or considerations from editing Wikipedia...by being a stakeholder ...of an organisation about which you are writing". Does this mean that beneficiaries of OHA programs or Hawaiian Homes or a separatist movement seeking to acquire land and money from the United States or the State of Hawai'i for the exclusive group "Hawaiians" or "native Hawaiians" ought to recuse themselves from editing these pages?
That's hilarious - the links to Yosemite Sam and Mr. Conklin. LOL
Yes, there is a resemblance... -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 17:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"This says, right off the bat, that you are connected to the same "think tank" as them, which would mean you are violating the COI policy on Wikipedia. —Viriditas | Talk 06:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)"
Hello Viriditas: To enhance readability, I've copied your statement to this "conflict of interest" area. This really intrigues me and I have many questions.
First, what "think tank"?
Second, should I recuse myself if I went to Kamehameha? Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
What if I have a step-sister who is Native Hawaiian but is "anti-sovereignty" and opposed to the Akaka bill?
What about if I have blood relations with whom I am estranged and separate from personally and financially who are attorneys active in the movement? One stands to benefit from ceded lands (pro-sovereignty, anti-Akaka), and the other would not reap any financial or personal gain (pro-bono work "anti-sovereignty" and "anti-Akaka bill")
Hawai'i is so diverse and integrated that it's hard to know how to interpret the conflict of interest policy. I've been proceeding up to this point on common sense but I would like your interpretation (and others) on the specifics above. Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 13:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You mentioned that name earlier instead of referring to it as the Native Hawaiian Study Commission. When you have time, I'd really like input from you or others regarding my other questions about conflict of interest. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You need to use the talk page to discuss your edits before reverting. The editor who adds material has the responsibility to defend that material after they have been reverted. I suggest you read the policies and guidelines regarding NPOV before continuing to edit war your POV into the article. You write, "Please talk out recent reversions on the merits on my talk page." That's not how it works. You added back in the same material, material you were asked to provide secondary sources for, and material you were asked to consider changing after considering Wikipedia's NPOV policy with regards to undue weight. You continue to try and frame this article in terms of its opposition which is neither neutral or acceptable. Since you are the editor who introduced this material, it is your job to defend it. It is not my job to defend my reversion of your material, which I have already shown is biased and lacking neutral secondary sources. — Viriditas | Talk 20:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I did use the talk page to discuss my edits before reverting. Perhaps you missed them. Again, being new to Wikipedia, rather than creating a new section,(which I'm unfamiliar with) I simply inserted comments in the section above. I wrote the date 02/12/08 right before my responses. Please read them as they provide more than enough justification for my edits.
When you say I've created a single purpose account I don't know what you mean. What other kinds of accounts are there? I am one person with one account.
Do you agree that Wikipedia policy calls for a lead section to "briefly describe its notable controversies"? Describing notable controversies is different than simply noting that there is a controversy.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 21:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: I don't think I responded below to something you mentioned above so I'm adding this in *now*. You say that I have, "cited him [Mr. Comklin], word for word, from his website without giving him credit". Isn't citing someone giving them credit? I'm not sure what you mean. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC) Or maybe you don't mean "in-line citation" but that I've "quoted" Mr. Conklin. I don't think I've quoted Mr. Conklin. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
That is not a quote. Please check again. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and on the other issue about a conflict of interest. Is there a way to continue that discussion above instead of here? That is, in the "conflict of interest" section? This area is full and seems to be about editing? Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 12:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: Thank you for the link to the SPA section. Here are a few things that I found: 1) Communal standards such as don't bite the newcomers apply to all users. Be courteous. Focus on the subject matter, not the person. If they are given fair treatment, they may also become more involved over time. 2)If a new user immediately participates in a discussion without an edit history in the area... or simply a user who has seen something of interest (a template such as AFD or an article), and wishes to contribute. For this reason, statements regarding motives are not recommended without an examination of the user's edit history. The term should be used descriptively and should not be read pejoratively unless a specific non-neutral agenda is clearly established. Users should be informed of relevant policies and content guidelines in a civil and courteous manner, especially if a tag will be applied to their comment.
Regarding 1) I've mentioned to you and all readers that I am a newcomer to Wikipedia. I did try to edit another article before I found this one but my additions were removed because I didn't know how to find or cite a source. You'll see it (I think) at the very top of this page. When I started making edits, I didn't even know there was a talk page. I was just scolling around when I saw your first comments and then figured out how to respond. You and someone named "Sunny" have provided me with help that I appreciate. I appreciate your courtesy. Early on you asked me if I was one Mr. Kirschel and then if I was one Mr. Conklin. I hope we can focus on the content and not the person. I'd be happy to credit Mr. Kirshel or Mr. Comklin or anyone I've inadvertantly quoted or plagarised. I read so much on this topic that when I start to write it flows out like it went in. Can you point out where I've quoted Mr. Comklin? Please rest assured I am acting in good faith and with the best intentions. Regarding 2) I am simply a user who has seen something of interest and wishes to contribute. I've read Kuykendall's trilogy, Shoal of Time, Broken Trust, Ka Po'e Kahiko, Hanifin, Sullivan, Crawford, Fein, Abercrombie, Kanahele, Koani foundation...the list goes on and on...and like most people, I have friends and acquaintances with whom I discuss and debate these issues. Sometimes I do think I ought to widen my interests but I guess I just like focusing on a "single purpose".
The guidelines clearly state that the term SPA should be used descriptivly unless a non-neutral agenda is established. You've mentioned a few times that I do not have a neutral point of view. Naturally, this topic itself is controversial and people are bound to have different opinions. Please point out specific edits that are unacceptable and cite how and why they conflict with Wikipedia policies. For instance, when I brought to your attention the fact that Wikipedia policy calls for describing notable controversies in the lead section, we agreed upon doing just that. Just alleging that I do not have a neutral point of view might not be productive. I need to know how any contribution I make will do a disservice to a reader expecting to be informed about a controversial issue in a non-biased way(unless there is some other standard that ought to apply).
It's worth mentioning again that you never questioned the veracity or verifiability of my additions to the lead section. In fact, when I quoted Hanifin,
"Other definitions add political criteria to the racial criteria. One plan extends the privileged class to include persons of other races who pass a test of political correctness defined by members of the racial elite. Another proposal defines a hereditary aristocracy consisting of all the descendants of the citizens of the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893. That excludes the descendants of the Asian immigrants who constituted most of the Kingdom's population in 1893 but who were not citizens. It also excludes everyone whose family arrived later. [1] The Office of Hawaiian Affairs"
your objection was not the content or the truth of the statement but who wrote it. In fact, these are the very ends sought by the "sovereignty movement" so it would seem logical to put it as plainly and simply as he did. Instead of refuting the content, you seemed to prefer alleging that Hanifin was an opponent of "sovereignty". When I mentioned that his position is pro sovereignty but that he objected to something "extra" in the "name" of sovereignty, it evidently did little to assuage your concern.
Thank you for once again raising the issue of COI. This time you are reminding me of the importance of any financial conflict of interest I may have that would cause me to recuse myself from contributing on this topic. There is nothing in the conflict of interest policy, including any financial interest, that would cause me to recuse myself. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 04:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I object to a checkuser. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 05:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, by the way, I'd still like to hear from you or anyone with respect to the lead section. I'd like to include wording that complies with Wikipedia policy to "briefly describe notable controversies". Because the policy explicitly states that notable controversies ought to be described, I think it's only fair that at least some of my prior text be restored. Thanks in advance. --
Yosemitesam25 (
talk) 02:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas: I'm glad that we agree that the policy expressly calls for a description of notable controversies in the lead section and that you'll be editing towards that end. Clearly, the policy is a good one.
Please stop reverting to POV one-sided version. You've already violated the WP:3RR policy and may be blocked for it. -- MPerel 07:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
If you are inclined, please justify your reversion. You claim that I am not neutral, please provide specific points rather than simply stating a claim. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 07:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I will mind the policy but you are now a party to the attempt to find common ground. Unless you provide specific informaion with respect to where and how I've violated NPOV, finding common ground will be very tough. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 08:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
No worries, we're all passionate about the issues. -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 19:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Yosemitesam25,
I notice you've been popping up on my watchlist a lot recently in relation to edits to Hawaiian sovereignty movement, but it was only today that I got a chance to look through your work. I have to say I agree with Viriditas about your edits in that I don't believe they represent a neutral point of view. From reading through the conversation above, though, I'm a little concerned that you might not have a full grasp of what we mean by that, so I hope you'll indulge me if I try to explain it a little bit better.
Within the policy on neutral point of view is a section on undue weight, which refers to the act of providing overly detailed information on a given point of view or positioning this point of view in such a way as to make it seem more important than it is. This is not to say that articles should shy away from discussing controversies, simply that controversies should be presented in such a manner that they do not overwhelm the encyclopedic nature of the article. Neutrality is one of the founding principles of Wikipedia and must be preserved in order to build a credible encyclopedia.
That being said, I'm pleased to see that you've calmed down a bit and hope that we can work together on improving the article. -- jonny- m t 08:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jonny-mt: Thanks, I'll look over the links. And yes, the policies seem odd, especially the part about the lead section. Why does the lead section policy call for a description of the controversies if everyone agrees that there should just be mention that a controversy exists? Are you an administrator for Wikipedia? Thanks for taking the time to help me out, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 08:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jonny-mt: Thanks so much for guiding me and helping me understand.
Here is the policy on reliable sources:
"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.[4] Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources".
Why doesn't a constitutional attorney who writes scholarly articles with careful citations and who is subject to intense scrutiny by his peers, the media, and the bar meet the standard for "reliable sources"?
Perhaps you could also help me further. The guidelines go on to say,
"In general...the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is".
The issue is reliabliity.
But you seem to add a further requirement. Are you saying or implying that all sources have to be "neutral"? Please help me out here and show me where the policy requires this.
The policy describes "questionable sources" like this:
"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking"
The issue is reliability.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 14:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas and thank you for your suggestions. I don't really feel comfortable writing anything entitled "Opposition to the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement" and don't know how to start a new article anyway, at least not now.
Since millions, perhaps billions, of dollars are at stake in this issue, not to mention political power, (those are two reasons the topic is "controversial"), I thought it would be perfecly acceptable to "briefly describe the notable controversies" in the lead section - as allowed for and encouraged by Wikipedia policy. But that policy was not adhered to when my mention of the Native Hawaiian Study Commission was reverted, thereby unduly weighting the article.
So I'm working on re-writing the entire article in a way that will be in proportion to the controversy. By the way, you had mentioned that you were re-writing the article yourself. How did it go?
In the meantime, I would appreciate any input you might have on my post in the "conflict of interest" section. Thanks,-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 16:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas:
To summarize, you've referred to me as "Jere" ("Jere, you know very well that I can have your account shut down. Now, either start playing by the rules or I will bring you to the COI noticeboard. It's your decision. —Viriditas | Talk 03:28, 13 February 2008 UTC"), asked me if I know "Jere" (BTW, do you know User:JereKrischel? —Viriditas | Talk 04:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)"), asked me if I was Mr. Comklin(" Are you Mr. Conklin? —Viriditas | Talk"), asked me to consent to something called a "usercheck" ("And if I request a checkuser to determine whether your edits are coming from the same account as Mr. Kirschel, you will have no objection?"), and now assert that I am a "person from the Grassroots Institute" ("You are not the first person from the Grassroots Institute to try to do this".21:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)). You've also said, "This says, right off the bat, that you are connected to the same "think tank" as them, which would mean you are violating the COI policy on Wikipedia. —Viriditas | Talk 06:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)".
The COI of interest policy clearly states:
"...using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is frowned upon."
Wikipedia policy also asks members of the community to assume good faith:
"To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. In allowing anyone to edit, we work from an assumption that most people are trying to help the project, not hurt it."
Have I ever asked you to reveal who you are, asked you to consent to a "usercheck", who you are associated with, told you that you represented an outside, conflicted organization or asked you about any potential conflicts you might have? No.
Hawai'i is integrated and diverse. Blood relations are varied and mixed. There are people of all "races" on both sides of this issue, some more than others.
I asked you earlier:
"Does this [the conflict of interest policy] mean that beneficiaries of OHA programs or Hawaiian Homes or a separatist movement seeking to acquire land and money from the United States or the State of Hawai'i for the exclusive group "Hawaiians" or "native Hawaiians" ought to recuse themselves from editing these pages?
Your response was:
"Yes, absolutely. Are you Mr. Conklin?" —Viriditas | Talk
Your position seems to be that anyone with a single drop of Hawaiian blood is conflicted and ought not to edit here. The issue is intriguing. If that is the prescription we all must follow then a beneficiary to an "affirmative action program" would recuse himself or herself from editing a page on the controversial topic of "affirmative action".
In good faith I turned to you and other members of the community with other questions about conflicts:
"...should I recuse myself if I went to Kamehameha? Thanks, --Yosemitesam25 (talk) 12:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)"
"What if I have a step-sister who is Native Hawaiian but is "anti-sovereignty" and opposed to the Akaka bill?"
"What about if I have blood relations with whom I am estranged and separate from personally and financially who are attorneys active in the movement? One stands to benefit from ceded lands (pro-sovereignty, anti-Akaka), and the other would not reap any financial or personal gain (pro-bono work "anti-sovereignty" and "anti-Akaka bill")"
If you have time, I'd really like some input on those questions.
Secondly, I'm still hoping to improve the "lead " section (and, at the same time, to follow guidelines set and encouraged by Wikipedia) by "describing notable controversies". As you said, "Controversies should certainly be described".
I'm thankful for all the guidance you've provided so far and I hope we can make this article much better over time. Thanks, -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 23:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You have been warned twice about the 3RR, [4] [5] so you are aware of it. Now I am telling you to take a step back and think about why your edits are not being accepted. Four editors have asked you to take a break and discuss your material. Please do so. — Viriditas | Talk 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was carefully sourced, neutral material reverted? First, Wikipedia policy was not adhered to by not allowing controversial material to be described in the lead section. Second, it was suggested that that I build up that material in the "opposition" section. But when I did that, it was reverted even though it was carefully sourced and neutral. Please be specific rather than simply alleging NPOV. Thanks -- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 02:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's start with your most recent example "Hawai'i is not under Military Occupation". Who are you responding to here? Once you identify who you are addressing, you begin to write about this in several ways. One, you can use the integrative approach, which is difficult, but the most favored method. Find a section where a prominent group or person claims that Hawaii is under military occupation and respond to it there. The reason this is more difficult than a standalone section, is because you actually have to address the topic. Who is claiming that there are soldiers quartered in citizen's homes in Hawai'i? You write, "All adult citizens of the State of Hawai'i are free to vote for their representatives, a right which many did not have in 1893." But there was no state in 1893, so the comparison is not valid. You see how your material is problematic? This is adversarial, POV pushing, and we don't write like that on Wikipedia. I can go on, but hopefully you can get an idea of where to go with this. Start with the integrated approach because you will find it more successful in the end. In the end, what you really want to do is represent both sides, and practice writing about views you personally disagree with on the topic. First and foremost, this topic is about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. It is not about minority, adversarial POV, but some of those views should be represented in the article in proportion to their relevance. It may also help if you find a good or featured article that is representative of a similar topic, and use it as your baseline. — Viriditas | Talk 02:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is some sort of "edit conflict"...I think we are both using this page at the same time
If you are really trying to "integrate" sections, then why was I not allowed to add even one half of a sentence "describing notable controversies" (as per Wikipedia policy) to the lead section? If you're so concerned that half a sentence is somehow "undue weight", then please consider adding carefully sourced material to restore a perceived imbalance rather then just wholesale destruction of any semblance of balance? Surely you are more than capable. And surely a stronger case for sovereignty can be made than what's currently written.
If you want me to add "a paragpaph, and I'll show you how to do it" then fine, I appreciate the help. But I don't need an entire paragraph. Lets start with the half sentence you would not accept in the lead section. It was something like this:
"Although the Native Hawaiian Study Commission in its 1983 final report found no legal or moral grounds for compensation to Native Hawaiians, the sovereignty movement continues to seek redress from the united states for what it sees as an illegal occupation and holds the us gov responsible".
That's just a paraphrase.
So, lets start with that please. Thanks-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 02:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that the edit warring started up again, I submitted a request for page protection that was subsequently granted. The article is fully protected for five days, which means that only administrators can edit it (and they will only do so per request and to remove potentially libelous material). I suggest we use this time to try and come to an understanding about what is and is not NPOV and hash out a positive path going forward. -- jonny- m t 05:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I found your recent edit to the "Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom" article rather problematic, but agree that the claim needed a citation (it had one before but it was stripped out in an edit war last year). Next time you find a statement that you feel needs citation, please add " citation needed" (note the coding) rather than simply stripping out material. Mahalo. Arjuna ( talk) 03:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
My regrets, but you've been reported for violation of 3RR on the Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom article. Arjuna ( talk) 21:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion about the Overthrow article should continue on that article's talk page. Please do not use my talk page for this purpose. Arjuna ( talk) 20:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi JK! Arjuna ( talk) 22:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove the COI tag from articles. Neutrality issues are implicit in the tag. Also, please stop removing the Hawaii state flag from a Hawaii template. Thank you. — Viriditas | Talk 06:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
RE: COI. Please see the talk page on the overthrow article. I offered to answer COI questions but that offer was rejected as an "unacceptable attitude". RE: flag. The articles are about the State of Hawai'i, a part of the United States. Therefore, the United States flag is appropriate. Regards,-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 14:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
"I do not go around making facile accusations in this respect". Actually, you've built up quite a history of exactly that. The latest was when you accused me of having a COI and then rejected my offer to answer COI questions, describing the offer as an "unacceptable attitude". Before that it was something to do with 3RR, something I wouldn't care to "report" anyone for. Now you're presuming to speak for an entire racial separatist movement while laying claim to a flag that never represented a Hawaiian only government. You want to display the Hawai'i State flag? Fine, an overwhelming majority -94%- of voters were in favor of Statehood. You want to burn the U.S. flag because you think supporting the U.S is the same as being against Hawaiians? Fine, burn the flag. This is your right under the Constitution as it should be. You want to continue name calling and launching grenades? Fine, I'll burn it off in the mountains. But my 2 cents is that you may want to take it a little slower here and ease up just a bit. Viriditas reminded me of that at the start.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 23:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
WHAT are you on about? I'm not a supporter of Hawaiian sovereignty, and not only have I never professed to "speak for" them, but in fact I disagree with them rather strongly. So you are way off base in lots of respects. I am simply interested in accuracy and NPOV and don't like someone vandalizing an article / template. It's most unfortunate for you that your credibility has reached zero, and if you don't like it, that's no one's fault but your own. Btw, I quite like the American flag, and in the future I'll not even feel the need to defend myself from such laughable accusations. But I hope you feel better after your little rant. Arjuna ( talk) 00:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Yosemite, we seem to be stuck in a rut. I have submitted (and been granted) multiple protection requests in relation to your edit warring on Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom and Hawaiian sovereignty movement. When these requests are granted, you sit back for five days, don't engage in discussion, and then return to edit warring to try and get the version you like.
This constant edit warring just gets us right back where we started, and I think we're all getting a little tired of it. So I am asking you this as a fellow editor--please take it to the talk page. Make a proposal outlining what you want to remove and why. If you feel some sources are unbalanced, explain why. If you feel there is too much information on a given topic in an article, explain what it is and why it needs to go (take a look at Talk:Hawaiian sovereignty movement for a good exchange between User:Viriditas and I). Believe it or not, we are capable of exploring multiple viewpoints--we just don't react well when they're rammed down our throats.
I'm asking you this not only because I want a neutral, well-written article on these topics but also because the next step is to have the articles protected for however long it takes to resolve the dispute and take this to dispute resolution. And I don't know about you, but I have other plans for how I'd like to spend my time on Wikipedia. -- jonny- m t 01:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
You have violated 3RR on [Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom] and will be reported. Arjuna ( talk) 10:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Yosemitesam25 ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
Hi Scarin: My request is to also block Arjuna. I don't know how to file a report and don't even care to but in this case, in fairness, reviewing his edits may be worth a look. I may be wrong but I think he reverted my edits 3 times. Thanks
Decline reason:
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Ok, Thank you for your time.-- Yosemitesam25 ( talk) 15:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
After getting some advice at WP:ANI, I have decided to offer something that might stop the edit warring on Hawaiian related articles. 1RR means you are only allowed to revert once. If another user undoes that revert, you are not allowed to revert again. This is a completely voluntary venture but I would highly recommend it; if you show that you're edit warring again I will block you again and request consensus for a Hawaiian article topic ban (That means no editing Hawaiian articles until disputes have been resolved). If you decided to accept the 1RR, please use discussion to work through that article's problems rather than reverting. Remember, it's voluntary, but I'd highly recommend it. Take care, friend. Scarian Call me Pat 11:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi YosemiteSam25. The reason several editors have noticed an apparent COI regarding your editing is that your edits appear to be promoting the interests of Grassroot Institute. Are you in any way associated with Grassroot Institute or with any other similar anti-sovereignty group? -- MPerel 00:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, first off, I'm on wiki-break. And yosemite is not known to me as Ken Conklin, or anyone else who works for the Grassroot Institute - and I pretty much know them all. He certainly isn't me. So we can end that whole line of speculation right there.
That being said, Yosemite, Arjuna and Viriditas are about the most honestly driven wikipedians I know, and they're trying to be nice. Really, they are. The whole "are you Jere" question aside (I suppose I am known for my sympathies, but c'mon guys, you know I'm always happy to attribute my name to my work), you need to pay a bit more consideration to their comments. I appreciate your POV, but you are a long way from being an effective editor, and both Arjuna and Viriditas can help.
Now THAT being said, yes, we should apply the same criteria for WP:COI to people actively involved in the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, or OHA, or pushing for the Akaka Bill. This is not to say that they couldn't be good editors, but ANYONE with a strong POV on this issue must be incredibly vigilant about respecting WP:NPOV. It is something we all struggle with.
So please, let's not blame me, or the Grassroot Institute, or Ken Conklin, or anyone else for this conflict - this is a new wikipedia user who is now hearing from both sides of the issue that their edits could be more productive if they were a bit more considerate. And by "considerate", I mean give the other side the most benefit of the doubt you can stretch, and if that isn't enough, stretch farther. WP:AGF helps a lot, but it does take time.
Mahalo for your kokua yosemite. If anyone wants to contact me further, please email, since I'm not checking wikipedia on a regular basis for the next few months at least. -- JereKrischel ( talk) 03:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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