Wonderful additions, but you've only put in page numbers, what work are you using for those references please? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Nancy D.
Xandar, just revert me if you prefer. Your talk page covered a year and a half of conversations I hope you don't mind. Merry Christmas! NancyHeise talk 03:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Xandar/CatholicChurchExmple
User:Xandar/CatholicChurchTrial
I noticed you have participated several China-related FAC's and seem to have some expertise in this area. Can you give me some input at the FAC? Thank you. Teeninvestor ( talk) 03:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, merry Christmas to you and yours. I'm wondering if you could come and join recent discussion at Talk:Christmas, where there is a dispute about the leading sentence. I am in favor of keeping the opening as "Christmas is a Christian holiday commemorating the birth of Jesus", but another user has insisted on changing this to "Christmas is a holiday that, in Christianity, commemorates the birth of Jesus". Please voice your opinion about which you prefer (or any alternatives) at the talk page. Thanks for your participation in this. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 19:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I haven't been feeling well for the past few weeks and so I can't help with the project right now. I have some ideas for articles (not all strictly Catholic) but those will have to wait. Loves Macs (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Most of the "material" in this "article" is made up of innuendo and supposition. I fear that it borders very much on being sectional polemic and original research. As far as I can see, there is not one solid fact concerning the alleged subject-matter. It seems like a speedy deletion to me. Xan dar 00:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi there. Noted your vast knowledge of theology (mine is somewhat limited) and your contributions to the topic hence why i'm messaging. On the Christmas article, if you could ensure that any contentious ammendments are veted... one such being...Although a Christian holiday... changed to...Although most consider this to be a Christian holiday. This doesnt sit right. Thanks. Bill.Roache - Talk 22:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Ugh. What a horrid article that was. I have performed some radical surgery on it. Please take a look and tell me what you think. My next step will be to add in the stuff about Ed Green. -- Richard S ( talk) 17:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Catholic Church and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Thanks,. Please add others to the party list if you think it is necessary. Karanacs ( talk) 19:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar, I read your statement at the Catholic Church RFAR, and I noticed that was quite prolix and verbose. It has roughly 1300 words at the moment, while most people see 1000 as a reasonable limit. Not only does it make it harder to browse, but your statement may be much more effective if it is more concise. I would recommend that you try to trim it down quite a bit, and make your main points in a little less words, if not to make your point come across more. Happy editing! ( X! · talk) · @179 · 03:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Please note that there is a 500 word limit on the request for arbitration page. That includes your initial statement and replies to others. Yours currently stands at over 1300 words. Please shorten it so it is below 500 words as soon as possible. Regards, Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 13:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I consider Karanacs and her friends are bringing a content dispute on what is always going to be a controversial and contentious article to the wrong place. What seems to have happened is that she and her group want the article to peresent a certain POV, largely antagonistic to its subject, and have lost patience with discussion, evidence-based argument and due procedure. There also seems to be a personal animosity borne by karanacs for Nancy Heise which gave rise to her earlier attempt to launch an RFC on her.
A request for arbritation is also improper here since all forms of dispute resolution have not been used. The cited mediation was on a very different issue raised by very different persons - namely the naming issue with regard to the article. This was settled amicably after a lengthy mediation process. Virtually no RFCs have been made on any of the issues raised here. Nancy Heise raised one after arbitrary changes were made by certain editors without consensus, and the RFC went in favour of the position Nancy upheld. This dispute is allegedly about POV, yet no attempt has been made to involve the POV noticeboard. There has also been absolutely no attempt to enter into either a formal or informal mediation process on the issues raised as set down in the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution policy. If real disputes exist mediation is the obvious course of action here.
As far as the accusation that the article is pro-Catholic in POV is concerned, the article compares well for balance with those in Encyclopedia Britannica and other encyclopedias, and actually presents a more critical view than such articles. The article has been (even before recent changes to favour Karanacs position) rated as a WP Good Article for many years, and has been put up several times for Featured Article, with a majority of commenting editors in support. Yes. Editors have been opposed to promotion. This happens on many controversial topics. What Nancy heise, myself and other long-term editors have insisted on is that we don't have a one-sided negative and caricatured portrayal that some seem to want.
For the past six months there has been a running review of the article, and particularly the history section, with the participation of several of the most highly-critical editors. Nancy, myself and others have tried to keep this orderly and deal with issues on the basis of Due Weight and reliable references. Nothing has been barred from discussion, and considerable change has occurred to the text. However this has been made more difficult by certain antagonistic editors such as Taam and PMAnderson, who have made continued personal attacks.
As far as other complaints go:
On the page we have tried to meet all content objections through discussion, and asking objectors to make and prove their points with reliable references. People have been challenged time and time again to provide a list of demonstrable factual errors in the article, and by and large such evidence has not been brought forward. Instead some people have demanded that no author with catholic connections be quoted in the article, or that statements such as Catholics were anti-women, pro-slavery, pro-fascist etc be present without reliable countering information.
I feel that what some people seem to dislike is the principle of making changes by consensus. This is an important Wikipedia policy since it forces us to examine the sources and come to an agreement on what is a fair NPOV presentation of the source material. The simple fact is that there is not a consensus among editors for the position of Karanacs and her allies, or they would have what they want already. From Karanacs complaint it seems that she is impatient with the process of reaching consensus and wants a ruling that she and her allies should have the article they want without interference from people who disagree with them. That is not the Wikipedia way. I propose that if karanacs and others have disagreements about content and the way their objections are being dealt with, they bring it to mediation. Xan dar 00:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Would like to comment on the case. Not sure that I have "standing" to do so since I am not named in the request. It seems to me that mediation is an important prelude to arbitration. Even mandatory. It appears that step has been skipped. Where do I comment? What would be my position in the request, if any? Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 21:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Are you going to dodge the question of how many clergy were killed before the Church embraced Franco? If you say 'what do you expect', they attacked a church in the asturias in 1934, they have to expect revenge, is that in line with Jesus teaching? Sayerslle ( talk) 12:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Because you have participated in one of the previous move requests for the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom article, I invite you to take part in the latest move request for that article. Thank you. --~ Knowzilla (Talk) 09:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see this and let us know what you think. Thank you. UberCryxic (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I've reported you for edit-warring. I promised I'd let you know next time. You're the only one who resorted to reverting rather than discussing. WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring Karanacs ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I have been blocked for a week by User Yellowmonkey, without discussion on the Admin page, and without even time to present my whole position on that page. This is for TWO reverts to a HIGHLY CONTENTIOUS and major change to the Catholic Church page, made against consensus and all Wikipedia rules by Ubercryxic and Karanacs - who then complained against me. The change was made in compliance with BOLD REVERT DISCUSS. The onus was on the changers to discuss their proposed changes not revert back. Karanacs and Ubercryxic have so far not been blocked for their serious disruption of the article, making huge and controversial changes against consensus. Yellowmonkey has blocked me for an excessive period on an earlier occasion, again following a Karanacs complaint, and this time he has acted with undue haste and one-sidedness
Decline reason:
First, there is no need for "discussion on the Admin page": admins act based on activity and there's no need for discussion among admins first. Second, based on this, the WP:NOTTHEM is key. There are ways to avoid edit-wars, and edit-warring is not one of them. ( talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Granted he has several entries in his block log for edit-warring, it's not clear to me what this block is intended to prevent. The page protection is set to expire on 24 March, and he didn't seem to be edit-warring anywhere else. Right now there is a straw poll in progress about these versions where Xandar's input would be useful, and he could be contributing to other pages. Maybe he would agree not to revert anywhere in exchange for a reduced block. Tom Harrison Talk 22:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This edit is canvassing; I have removed it. Please don't continue such behavior once your block ends. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't know much about the featured article process. Is it relevant to this somehow? Tom Harrison Talk 00:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, my friend, let me refresh your memory. I arrived at the Catholic Church on my own. Haldraper and myself were actually very bitter enemies in a dispute over another article ( Liberal Democrats - take a look at the first sentence and you'll know what the dispute was about), but we just happen to have some common points of agreement regarding this article. As for canvassing: you should do it sparingly and wisely. The problem with your suggestion to Wikiproject Catholicism was its obviously biased nature: you were telling them your opinion of what was happening in advance, without allowing them to examine the proposed changes and to come to their own conclusions. You were clearly trying to influence their perspectives before they were given a legitimate chance to form one on their own. That kind of canvassing is strongly forbidden. UberCryxic (talk) 00:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I am again requesting unblock for the following reasons. 1) My initial reversion of the major changes to the Catholic Church article, made without consensus by Ubercryxic, Karanacs and others, was quite proper under WP rules, since the changes were not agreed by at least four long-term editors - who suggested speedy reversion. The large-scale changes were disruptive to the article, being piecemeal, covering many different topics, completely reordering the article, removing significant material, and making it impossible to determine which subsequent edits were consensus. A reversion was therefore proper under WP:BOLD,REVERT,DISCUSS. Three minutes after my revert however, an editor re-reverted without attempting to discuss. I reverted ONCE more, since that reversal was against practice and policy, and I was acting to reduce disruption. 2) My action did not breach the 3 revert rule, since I reverted twice, and in fact the immediate reversal of my initial revert was itself improper. 3) Therefore I believe the block applied by Yellowmonkey, was excessive. 4) I admit that what I did could strictly be defined as edit-warring, however in view of the one surplus revert, and the mitigating circumstances above, I believe the block should be significantly reduced, and I am prepared to commit to no more revert war actions. 5) I am engaged in an ongoing process of trying to negotiate ordered agreement to resolve remaining disagreements regarding article content, and the block prevents my participation in this process. My main concern is that we build an article by negotiation that the majority of editors are happy to sign off on. Xan dar 01:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
This is the fourth time you have blocked for edit warring. You got off easy. Beeblebrox ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I am not an administrator and so my opinion doesn't count as much as that of Tom or Sandy. However, I have studied the user's past history while I've been at the Catholic Church article over the last week and a half and it seems that the user edit wars habitually. It wouldn't be a bad idea to send a message and leave the full block. UberCryxic (talk) 02:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
@Tom Harrison: This block is preventative, since many years of evidence strongly suggest that Xandar would be edit warring right now if he were not blocked. If some other remedy for this predilection is put in place, such as a long-term 0RR restriction, then the block can be lifted. In the absence of any other remedy, the block must remain. Hesperian 02:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Just to make my own position clear, the only reason I am here is to make the case that Xandar has long-term edit-warring issues, and that this block should not be lifted without some other remedy being put in place. I cannot make that case without making unflattering observations about Xandar's behavioural patterns. Hesperian 03:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, I've asked YM if he would consider lifting the block if you would agree to a 0RR rule. I think that would healthy for you and for progress on the page, since it would encourage you to seek an editor's rationale and logic before reverting. -- Andy Walsh (talk) 04:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
My block review request was rejected by Beeblebrox, stating I had had four blocks for edit-warring. This is incorrect. This is my third block in five years of editing, and is on a technical offense ie 2 reverts. Those two reverts were done under the provocation of a massive non-consensus edit to the article, and were committed in the heat of the moment. Further to the suggestion of Andy Walsh on my talk page, I am willing to agree to a 0RR presence on the Catholic Church page if unblocked soon. (offer not taken up after nearly four days) With these major changes currently being discussed, and Nancy heisse now also blocked, I think it is necessary that major editors of the current article be represented in those significant discussions.
Xan
dar 20:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC) ADDITION as at 15.3.10: Serious questions need to be asked about what is beginning to seem like the improper political use of one-sided blocking of key contributors by certain admins in order to try to alter content issues on the Catholic Church page.
Xan
dar 03:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
"The cabal is out to get me" is not a valid unblocking rationale. SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 03:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
My offer (of 11th March) to 0RR on the Catholic Church page if my block was swiftly lifted has clearly not been agreed to. Therefore the offer falls. I will abide by the same 1RR rule as other editors have been asked to. Xan dar 19:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I must also say that I oppose any poll on Ubercryxics drastic changes to the Catholic Church article before there has been an opportunity to discuss and debate the reasoning behind, and the deficits of the proposed changes.
As far as I can see, the changes are typical of those done in haste by someone who knows very little about the subject. Having the History section first is insupportable, since it stops the article fulfilling its primary purpose for most readers i.e. telling people what the Church is, does and believes and practices NOW.
The changes to the beliefs section are catastrophic, since they completely mangle and destroy the sections on belief in so many ways it is impossible to list them all. Huge and importanmt sections of the belief section have been hacked away to make an incoherent mess. I know this is of zero importance to most of the people who oppose the present text - but it is of importance to the accuracy of the article and to Wikipedia.
Removal of sections like origin amd Mission and Cultural Influence are also unjustified and not acceptable in an article purporting to provide full and comprehensive coverage of the subject. In all this is a joke of an attempt to re-write the article.
Any attempt to implement anything like this without the proper full discussion, justification, consensus and debate is completely out of line with the central principles of Wikipedia, and would be strongly opposed. I would urge people to step back from this appalling proposal and return to trying to achieve source and reference-based consensus forming. Xan dar 02:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec)Xandar, I can understand your frustration, but I think you may have misunderstood a bit the point of the straw poll. You had proposed, and Nancy had alluded to, that the current article should be considered a base point for making changes. Uber is instead proposing a different version as the base. The key is that Uber is not proposing that his version is perfect, and it is highly likely that we will need to dissect it in detail and I am sure that lots of changes will need to be made. It is a failure of good faith to assume that those who have commented in the poll in a manner you disagree with have not given "any form of ordered consideration or thought with respect to the proposed alterations". I'm also not sure what evidence you are looking for "that many of the people voting have any interest in or knowledge of the topics and changes proposed." The vast majority of those who have commented have been active on the article talk page at one time or another, or have followed the article through FAC. If they arrived from one of the notifications left at the wikiproject talk pages, then they have obviously shown an interest in the article. Do you think that participation in the discussion should be restricted? If so, to whom? What would editors need to say tto convince you that they have considered the arguments yet still reached a conclusion that is different from yours? Karanacs ( talk) 20:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
PS If you have an opinion on Geometry's Guy's question at Talk:Catholic_Church#GAR_Advice, I'll proxy it for you on the talk page. Karanacs ( talk) 21:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The article has been unprotected, the straw poll has been declared dead, and I have gone ahead and implemented the new version of the article, per majority consensus. The final vote when the straw poll was declared dead was 11-7 (61% in favor of the new version). I look forward to working with you when your block expires. Please see the talk page for more details. Try to work through consensus and do not revert to the previous version. Thank you in advance for your cooperation through these difficult times. UberCryxic (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I notice that Nancy is suggesting an RFC. My view is that any proper RFC must be a part of and follow discussion on the SUBSTANTIVE CONTENT ISSUES raised by the changes, (or rather slash and burn,) initiated by UnerCryxic. In other words it must be based on the article content changes and removals. As such the first stage needs to be a full summation and criticism by myself, nancy and other editors, of the changes carried out on the article since March 10th, and a discussion of these points. If agreement cannot be reached, then an RFC question would be formulated and the positions and alternatives clearly set out. Anything less would not be in accordance with WIkipedia principles and policies on consensus decision making. I would oppose any RFC without full discussion of the substantive issues in question, and without both alternative visions of the page being available to participants, to be studied BEFORE "voting"> Xan dar 01:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. I'm not sure how much you've been following Talk:Catholic Church in the last week. Just in case you havne't been following closely, I wanted to let you know that I've archived a lot of the discussions to Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 46 and Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 45 because the talk page has been very busy and slow to load. Feel free to reinstate any of those discussions on the article talk page if you think it necessary. Karanacs ( talk) 19:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, I agree with much of what you say, but frankly you & Nancy, perhaps especially you in some ways, have brought it on yourselves. The rows will now clearly stretch on until the crack of doom, & I will be absenting myself for a long sabbatical. Uber & Karanacs have for now installed themselves as the Junta, just as Nancy & you did. Let's see what comes of it. You might be interested in Wikipedia:Featured_article_review#Military_history_of_France, where the differences between my ideas as to what an FA on a large subject should be like and Uber's are raised in a different context. Johnbod ( talk) 14:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
{{
unblock|Your reason here}}
below, but you should read our
guide to appealing blocks first.
SarekOfVulcan (
talk) 14:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Xandar, I asked Sarek if he'd agree to shortening your block if you'd acknowledge your error and leave the same note with all others who commented on the straw poll. He agreed, so the ball's in your court. Karanacs ( talk) 14:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, yes, I did comment on the article several days ago when I just took a quick look. But I did not read the talk page discussion where you recently commented on the changes for more than 3 seconds today. I just glanced and stopped. It was more of the same. It will probably be more talk, then some more talk and then some more talk. After that everyone will do some more talking. There are too many people there with deep feelings for/against each other. Participating in that discussion is a waste of life in my view. Wikipedia policies are inadequate here, as I had said before. While everone was hating each other on that talk page, I took some time off from religion to write History of randomness. It was more fun than that talk page. I hope you will like it.
I did take a quick look at the article and it looks like it was run over by a bus. But please do not sweat it. The Church has always out-lived its critics, and it will out-live all of us too, for or against these changes.
There may be a "Hail Mary" path (pun intended) to fix this article in the long run. But it can not be done by talking on that talk page for ever. My suggestion is to let this cool off and then think of a better, more constructive way much later, maybe in a few months. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 14:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I actually like what you have proposed with regard to scaling back "History" to a summary and refering users to a "History of the Catholic Church" article. It would eliminate the POV wars, etc. I do remember at one point my objection to the article was 0 mention of Therese of Avilla, Francis of Assissi, the Rosary, etc; yet paragraphs on Luther, Hitler, etc. I do think that the enormous amount of work that you and Nancy put into this article should be introduced into the sub articles on history, and the sub articles on those. This could have the potential to be a great source of knowledge about the Church. The other upside is rather than the bickering, erdit-warring, namecalling, etc one could simply point an objector to the appropriate article.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Xander, I was going to provide suggestions later, but since you seem intent on continuing on this article, here are my suggestions for you, (and of course the other 3,000 people who in the best of Wikipedia tradition have their binoculars focused on here). I provide my suggestions to you, because in the end you are probably one of the best people to fix that page, if you change strategy and loyalties, as below.
1. Please accept the facts. You are outnumbered on the Cath Church page now and Wikipedia is as much about numbers as logic. There is no point in discussing page length there, as I hinted above. And then it gets worse. So do not bother to talk and talk over there. You are persona nongrata there, and they will just threaten to have you ceremoniously flogged until you admit the errors of your ways. Just stop bickering over there.
2. Stop having faith in Wikipedia policies. Wiki justice is often random since "consensus" depends on who happens to be present on a page at a given time. If 36 students on springbreak decide to walk over right now to vote on changes as a prank to rewrite it backwards, they can get consensus to do pretty much whatever they want. So give up on the belief in the Wiki-process. It works once in a while, but not always.
3. Accept that your previous strategy did not work. In my view, your errors were two fold, and related:
I did not walk off that page because of the opposition, for I could handle them. I walked off because of Nancy. It was clear to me that her zeal was limitless and resulted in really exaggerated claims. There was no end to them and they infuriated some of the opposition into making similarly exaggerated statements. I thought: with friends like that who needs opposition? The claim that Catholic schools are most respected in the world was just an example. How can anyone with a sense of logic not over-ridden by emotion try to insert that into an encyclopedia? As I said, it would take $100 million in opinion research just to estimate the validity of that statement. And what does it teach a reader? It was not educational, it was a press release sound bite. But the e-straw that broke the e-camel's back was the sudden introduction of the Harvard Crimson insanity just as we were having a careful discussion on the reduction of the History section. I found that just an insult to the intelligence of Catholics and atheists alike. Contrary to popular belief, being a Catholic does not require a lobotomy at the moment of baptism. Some Catholics do think once in a while and many of them, like me find extreme positions such as the distasteful Harvard Crimson debate just meaningless.
Accept advice, and do not wear rose colored glasses when you view the Church. I think long ago Taam said that the article's tone was that the Church can do no wrong. I think he was right, and that tone existed throughout. You do not have to defend the inquisition, or all the actions of every pope. I felt that if Nancy had her way, many of the claims in the article would be so exaggerated and extreme that they would have even been too embarassing for a press release by Agenzia Fides. For any exaggerated statement, one can find some reference, but that is not the way to be constructive. Some of the opposition such as Haldraper and Karanacs had many valid points. Do listen to the opposition as well as friends.
What to do next? As they say the Chinese character for trouble also includes the character for opportunity. I think the suggestion that Mike Searson made makes a lot of sense. This is an opportunity to build a nice set of articles that work in harmony to present information about the Church, free of exaggerations.
My suggestions:
1. Build on value. The article, if it had been rid of the exaggerated claims and the extra baggage in the History section was actually very good in most cases. Your advantage over the current version is that you actually know the topic. Among all the disagreements, there was just one item that everyone agreed upon: that the History section was the weakest, most overweight and in my view also the only unreadable section. I actually used to think of the History section as a heavy garbage truck being towed by a nice car. Now the garbage truck leads the article and the car has been traded in for a much smaller more spartan model. In time people will figure that out. But do not sweat that yet. Let it be for now. The Church has been there for 2,000 years and a few weeks or months makes no difference.
2. Use their tactic, but do better. Set up a subpage of your own and cooperate with a few selected people to build a proposal. Do not do it alone, so you get multiple perspectives. I suggest inviting just Mike and Richard to help you as a start and asking Haldraper to act as a critical voice if he agrees. Do not invite Nancy for the reasons above and do not invite me because I am lazy. If you can convince Johnbod into commenting that will be great, but he seems to have had enough of this now. As the article group grows, asks comments from 5 to 7 other editors to give it balance.
3. Set up the sub-article structure first. You need 7-8 sub-articles with a top article that ties them together. Many of the articles exist, but some such as Catholic Theology are in need of help. As Mike said, an article that mentioned no saints and no rosary was missing a lot. And for Heaven's sake do some type of sub-article on Catholic spirituality, and refer to that instead of just debating the number of priests.
Then the project will take on a life of its own, and it will lead you. Remember: many churches were burned down, most were rebuilt as even better churches. This article is in a mess now, and you have had a temporary set back. You can rebuild, but not on that talk page. After the new article is ready in your user-space, then it will probably outrank the current attempt so much that you can go through multiple routes to improve the situation. I am really going to stop reading this talk page and the article for a while now. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 01:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Article title. DrKiernan ( talk) 09:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC) (Using {{ Please see}})
Just letting you know that I've created the structure for an RfC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Catholic Church, in case you or NancyHeise want to use it. If you do, you could collaborate on the "statement of the dispute" section. Or you could each write one, or one of you could write "statement of dispute," and another could write a different section lower down. It's up to you entirely, and there's no absolutely set format, so you can mix and match. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 17:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Please comment on this suggested compromise—on that page, please. SlimVirgin talk contribs 22:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
From past discussions, I know that you have been very unhappy with the state of relations on the CC article. I have called for a more collaborative approach. It seems to be a case of "well I would but the other side won't stop." It seems to me that there is a desire on the part of some editors to try to work more collaboratively if others did.
If you want to move in that direction, now might be a good time to give a sign of good faith. One thing I do not think we should do though is get into any postmortems. The current discussion has turned toward what we could do to establish a new approach. My question for you is: would you be ready to work collaboratively with others on the CC article? Please don't feel compelled to reply if you are not ready to. Sunray ( talk) 06:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. You stated somewhere that you weren't sure where SlimVirgin had posted a question to you. I think Richard just reiterated it here, if you want to answer. Karanacs ( talk) 20:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/06/why_did_the_pope_keep_quiet_about_hitler?page=0,0
Read the intro in italics and tell me what you think the average reader is expected to think at the end of it.
Then read the article and tell me what conclusion the article author actually reaches.
Amazing... you know that I am no blind defender of the Church or Pius XII but this sort of manipulation is truly atrocious.
-- Richard S ( talk) 01:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. I hope everything is okay with you - it looks like you haven't been editing in a little while. When you return, I hope you will take a look at Talk:Catholic_Church#Early_Christianity_last_paragraph_-_persecutions; your perspective is welcome. Karanacs ( talk) 17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, Xandar, hope you're doing well. Discussion has been reignited at the Christmas talk page regarding use of "religious holiday" and the celebratory dates of January 6 and January 7 in the lead paragraph. Since you've participated in related discussion at that talk page before, I invite you to join the discussion at Talk:Christmas#Lead. Thanks. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 10:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
If you could strike things that have been addressed to your satisfaction, that would be spiffy. ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 17:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).
Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.
When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.
If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Karanacs ( talk) 17:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
....is messy! I was wasting time wandering around Wikipedia tonight and wandered over here to see what you are up to. You have discussions going on your userpage instead of here. Since I have been on a super cleaning binge this summer it was difficult for me to resist fixing it myself. Hope you are having a nice summer in Merry (and sunny) England! (and find time to fix your userpage) NancyHeise talk 01:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Your input on the length of the Catholic Church article would be welcome at Talk:Catholic Church#Long_version. — Jeff G. ツ 21:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
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On Talk:Catholic Church, you asserted that the dioceses of Boston and L.A. had specifically denied that such closures were linked to the sexual abuse scandal. This runs counter to the impression given by quite a number of press coverage. There are at least a few articles in Wikipedia which assert this linkage. I would like to look at the original sources and then revisit our articles on the topic to adjust the assertion that there is a linkage as appropriate. Can you point me in the direction of sources which back up your assertion? -- Richard S ( talk) 16:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Mray Vincent's book 'catholicism in the Second Spanish Republic' (Oxford University press ) ,sorry its not the Ctaholic Herald or whatever you think is mainstream, is not fringe. In it she argues that the descent into war occurred because of the closing down of the moderate political options represented by men like Unamuno and Villalobos. She is clearly not an extremist then. " The tragedy of the Second Republic was that it abetted its own destruction; the tragedy of the Church was that it became so closely allied with its self-styled defenders that its own sphere of action was severely compromised." Its self styled defenders, the CEDA, and Carlists like Lamamie de Clairac, openly contemptuous of democracy. There was much talk in catholic publications of Masonic plots and Vincent writes this fear of plots " was also linked to the rampant anti-semitism which was a familiar feature of much Catholic culture." i know you think the Church was attacked totally unprovoked and is 100% innocent but reality is the master, as larry durrell once said. NPOV Sayerslle ( talk) 19:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello Xandar, I'm working out an outline for Practices and Beliefs and saw your post over on the talk page. When you've the time, and if you're willing, it'd be helpful for me if you'd post some examples from other versions that might be used as starting point here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Malke_2010/Catholic_Church. Thanks. Malke 2010 ( talk) 19:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Help us come to a proper consensus and vote Talk:Jessica_(entertainer)#Move.3F. Thank you. 200.21.15.109 ( talk) 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Your edit of October 22, 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Catholic_Church&diff=392123792&oldid=3773480
states "this needs to be retained".
Why?
One of your edits states : "Its leader is the pope." To shed some light on your insight, the Roman Catholic Church has Jesus Christ as its leader, not the "pope".
Is it too much to ask of you to correct an error which you wrote several years ago?
If not, change "Its leader is the pope." to "Its leader is Jesus Christ."
Then you and your followers won't be in the wrong. Prophet of the Most High ( talk) 16:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Its visible leader, a follower of Jesus Christ, is called the Vicar of Christ. The word "pope" is a bastardization forbidden by Jesus Christ. Prophet of the Most High ( talk) 17:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Dear friend , could you please assists me to solve Problem of this Article Talk:Merciline Jayakody/Temp-- Wipeouting ( talk) 15:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry. I was not consciously trying to rain on anyone's parade, just giving my two cents. You've been a valuable and consistent contributor to religious articles and I would hope to remain "on your good side!"
Nor am I trying to "win an argument." I am in a number of secular organizations. The use of secular names is very useful to get people interested in a topic. They are put off by religious adjectives. They would not read "Mohamed (Blessed Be His Name)" any more than they would read "Blessed Virgin Mary." Readers need to be pampered carefully IMO. It takes time for them to work their way up to the state of mind a believer might have. But that is just MO. Student7 ( talk) 22:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi... I have done a lot of work recently on Christianity and violence. I have tried to make it an NPOV treatment of the topic. However, I suspect there may be areas where the pro-Christianity POV is inadequately presented. I wonder if you could take a look at the article and express your opinion on the article's talk page. Thanx. -- Richard S ( talk) 21:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Please click on the link for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir - this is the best Christmas Carol performace. It made me think of how God's message really goes out to everyone in the world and we are all united with each other in whatever country or Christian religious branch we happen to belong to if we are believers and practicers. PS. You need to clean up your user and talk pages! You still have a message from last Christmas on here - geesh! NancyHeise talk 16:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I have access to a variety of excellent books thanks to my new job. I'd like your commentary on my proposed revision, as I work through the existing text. Benkenobi18 ( talk) 08:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
ICHTHUS |
January 2012 |
In this issue...
You are invited to join the discussion at Template_talk:Catholicism#Edit_request_on_7_December_2012 to edit the list of Doctors of the Church to add John of Avila and Hildegard of Bingen and do this by embedding Template:Churchdoctor. I am messaging you because you are a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Catholicism -- Jayarathina ( talk) 16:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current
Arbitration Committee election. The
Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia
arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose
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MediaWiki message delivery (
talk) 22:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Wonderful additions, but you've only put in page numbers, what work are you using for those references please? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Nancy D.
Xandar, just revert me if you prefer. Your talk page covered a year and a half of conversations I hope you don't mind. Merry Christmas! NancyHeise talk 03:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Xandar/CatholicChurchExmple
User:Xandar/CatholicChurchTrial
I noticed you have participated several China-related FAC's and seem to have some expertise in this area. Can you give me some input at the FAC? Thank you. Teeninvestor ( talk) 03:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, merry Christmas to you and yours. I'm wondering if you could come and join recent discussion at Talk:Christmas, where there is a dispute about the leading sentence. I am in favor of keeping the opening as "Christmas is a Christian holiday commemorating the birth of Jesus", but another user has insisted on changing this to "Christmas is a holiday that, in Christianity, commemorates the birth of Jesus". Please voice your opinion about which you prefer (or any alternatives) at the talk page. Thanks for your participation in this. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 19:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I haven't been feeling well for the past few weeks and so I can't help with the project right now. I have some ideas for articles (not all strictly Catholic) but those will have to wait. Loves Macs (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Most of the "material" in this "article" is made up of innuendo and supposition. I fear that it borders very much on being sectional polemic and original research. As far as I can see, there is not one solid fact concerning the alleged subject-matter. It seems like a speedy deletion to me. Xan dar 00:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi there. Noted your vast knowledge of theology (mine is somewhat limited) and your contributions to the topic hence why i'm messaging. On the Christmas article, if you could ensure that any contentious ammendments are veted... one such being...Although a Christian holiday... changed to...Although most consider this to be a Christian holiday. This doesnt sit right. Thanks. Bill.Roache - Talk 22:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Ugh. What a horrid article that was. I have performed some radical surgery on it. Please take a look and tell me what you think. My next step will be to add in the stuff about Ed Green. -- Richard S ( talk) 17:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Catholic Church and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Thanks,. Please add others to the party list if you think it is necessary. Karanacs ( talk) 19:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar, I read your statement at the Catholic Church RFAR, and I noticed that was quite prolix and verbose. It has roughly 1300 words at the moment, while most people see 1000 as a reasonable limit. Not only does it make it harder to browse, but your statement may be much more effective if it is more concise. I would recommend that you try to trim it down quite a bit, and make your main points in a little less words, if not to make your point come across more. Happy editing! ( X! · talk) · @179 · 03:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Please note that there is a 500 word limit on the request for arbitration page. That includes your initial statement and replies to others. Yours currently stands at over 1300 words. Please shorten it so it is below 500 words as soon as possible. Regards, Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 13:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I consider Karanacs and her friends are bringing a content dispute on what is always going to be a controversial and contentious article to the wrong place. What seems to have happened is that she and her group want the article to peresent a certain POV, largely antagonistic to its subject, and have lost patience with discussion, evidence-based argument and due procedure. There also seems to be a personal animosity borne by karanacs for Nancy Heise which gave rise to her earlier attempt to launch an RFC on her.
A request for arbritation is also improper here since all forms of dispute resolution have not been used. The cited mediation was on a very different issue raised by very different persons - namely the naming issue with regard to the article. This was settled amicably after a lengthy mediation process. Virtually no RFCs have been made on any of the issues raised here. Nancy Heise raised one after arbitrary changes were made by certain editors without consensus, and the RFC went in favour of the position Nancy upheld. This dispute is allegedly about POV, yet no attempt has been made to involve the POV noticeboard. There has also been absolutely no attempt to enter into either a formal or informal mediation process on the issues raised as set down in the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution policy. If real disputes exist mediation is the obvious course of action here.
As far as the accusation that the article is pro-Catholic in POV is concerned, the article compares well for balance with those in Encyclopedia Britannica and other encyclopedias, and actually presents a more critical view than such articles. The article has been (even before recent changes to favour Karanacs position) rated as a WP Good Article for many years, and has been put up several times for Featured Article, with a majority of commenting editors in support. Yes. Editors have been opposed to promotion. This happens on many controversial topics. What Nancy heise, myself and other long-term editors have insisted on is that we don't have a one-sided negative and caricatured portrayal that some seem to want.
For the past six months there has been a running review of the article, and particularly the history section, with the participation of several of the most highly-critical editors. Nancy, myself and others have tried to keep this orderly and deal with issues on the basis of Due Weight and reliable references. Nothing has been barred from discussion, and considerable change has occurred to the text. However this has been made more difficult by certain antagonistic editors such as Taam and PMAnderson, who have made continued personal attacks.
As far as other complaints go:
On the page we have tried to meet all content objections through discussion, and asking objectors to make and prove their points with reliable references. People have been challenged time and time again to provide a list of demonstrable factual errors in the article, and by and large such evidence has not been brought forward. Instead some people have demanded that no author with catholic connections be quoted in the article, or that statements such as Catholics were anti-women, pro-slavery, pro-fascist etc be present without reliable countering information.
I feel that what some people seem to dislike is the principle of making changes by consensus. This is an important Wikipedia policy since it forces us to examine the sources and come to an agreement on what is a fair NPOV presentation of the source material. The simple fact is that there is not a consensus among editors for the position of Karanacs and her allies, or they would have what they want already. From Karanacs complaint it seems that she is impatient with the process of reaching consensus and wants a ruling that she and her allies should have the article they want without interference from people who disagree with them. That is not the Wikipedia way. I propose that if karanacs and others have disagreements about content and the way their objections are being dealt with, they bring it to mediation. Xan dar 00:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Would like to comment on the case. Not sure that I have "standing" to do so since I am not named in the request. It seems to me that mediation is an important prelude to arbitration. Even mandatory. It appears that step has been skipped. Where do I comment? What would be my position in the request, if any? Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 21:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Are you going to dodge the question of how many clergy were killed before the Church embraced Franco? If you say 'what do you expect', they attacked a church in the asturias in 1934, they have to expect revenge, is that in line with Jesus teaching? Sayerslle ( talk) 12:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Because you have participated in one of the previous move requests for the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom article, I invite you to take part in the latest move request for that article. Thank you. --~ Knowzilla (Talk) 09:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see this and let us know what you think. Thank you. UberCryxic (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I've reported you for edit-warring. I promised I'd let you know next time. You're the only one who resorted to reverting rather than discussing. WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring Karanacs ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I have been blocked for a week by User Yellowmonkey, without discussion on the Admin page, and without even time to present my whole position on that page. This is for TWO reverts to a HIGHLY CONTENTIOUS and major change to the Catholic Church page, made against consensus and all Wikipedia rules by Ubercryxic and Karanacs - who then complained against me. The change was made in compliance with BOLD REVERT DISCUSS. The onus was on the changers to discuss their proposed changes not revert back. Karanacs and Ubercryxic have so far not been blocked for their serious disruption of the article, making huge and controversial changes against consensus. Yellowmonkey has blocked me for an excessive period on an earlier occasion, again following a Karanacs complaint, and this time he has acted with undue haste and one-sidedness
Decline reason:
First, there is no need for "discussion on the Admin page": admins act based on activity and there's no need for discussion among admins first. Second, based on this, the WP:NOTTHEM is key. There are ways to avoid edit-wars, and edit-warring is not one of them. ( talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Granted he has several entries in his block log for edit-warring, it's not clear to me what this block is intended to prevent. The page protection is set to expire on 24 March, and he didn't seem to be edit-warring anywhere else. Right now there is a straw poll in progress about these versions where Xandar's input would be useful, and he could be contributing to other pages. Maybe he would agree not to revert anywhere in exchange for a reduced block. Tom Harrison Talk 22:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This edit is canvassing; I have removed it. Please don't continue such behavior once your block ends. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 00:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't know much about the featured article process. Is it relevant to this somehow? Tom Harrison Talk 00:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, my friend, let me refresh your memory. I arrived at the Catholic Church on my own. Haldraper and myself were actually very bitter enemies in a dispute over another article ( Liberal Democrats - take a look at the first sentence and you'll know what the dispute was about), but we just happen to have some common points of agreement regarding this article. As for canvassing: you should do it sparingly and wisely. The problem with your suggestion to Wikiproject Catholicism was its obviously biased nature: you were telling them your opinion of what was happening in advance, without allowing them to examine the proposed changes and to come to their own conclusions. You were clearly trying to influence their perspectives before they were given a legitimate chance to form one on their own. That kind of canvassing is strongly forbidden. UberCryxic (talk) 00:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I am again requesting unblock for the following reasons. 1) My initial reversion of the major changes to the Catholic Church article, made without consensus by Ubercryxic, Karanacs and others, was quite proper under WP rules, since the changes were not agreed by at least four long-term editors - who suggested speedy reversion. The large-scale changes were disruptive to the article, being piecemeal, covering many different topics, completely reordering the article, removing significant material, and making it impossible to determine which subsequent edits were consensus. A reversion was therefore proper under WP:BOLD,REVERT,DISCUSS. Three minutes after my revert however, an editor re-reverted without attempting to discuss. I reverted ONCE more, since that reversal was against practice and policy, and I was acting to reduce disruption. 2) My action did not breach the 3 revert rule, since I reverted twice, and in fact the immediate reversal of my initial revert was itself improper. 3) Therefore I believe the block applied by Yellowmonkey, was excessive. 4) I admit that what I did could strictly be defined as edit-warring, however in view of the one surplus revert, and the mitigating circumstances above, I believe the block should be significantly reduced, and I am prepared to commit to no more revert war actions. 5) I am engaged in an ongoing process of trying to negotiate ordered agreement to resolve remaining disagreements regarding article content, and the block prevents my participation in this process. My main concern is that we build an article by negotiation that the majority of editors are happy to sign off on. Xan dar 01:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
This is the fourth time you have blocked for edit warring. You got off easy. Beeblebrox ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I am not an administrator and so my opinion doesn't count as much as that of Tom or Sandy. However, I have studied the user's past history while I've been at the Catholic Church article over the last week and a half and it seems that the user edit wars habitually. It wouldn't be a bad idea to send a message and leave the full block. UberCryxic (talk) 02:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
@Tom Harrison: This block is preventative, since many years of evidence strongly suggest that Xandar would be edit warring right now if he were not blocked. If some other remedy for this predilection is put in place, such as a long-term 0RR restriction, then the block can be lifted. In the absence of any other remedy, the block must remain. Hesperian 02:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Just to make my own position clear, the only reason I am here is to make the case that Xandar has long-term edit-warring issues, and that this block should not be lifted without some other remedy being put in place. I cannot make that case without making unflattering observations about Xandar's behavioural patterns. Hesperian 03:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, I've asked YM if he would consider lifting the block if you would agree to a 0RR rule. I think that would healthy for you and for progress on the page, since it would encourage you to seek an editor's rationale and logic before reverting. -- Andy Walsh (talk) 04:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
My block review request was rejected by Beeblebrox, stating I had had four blocks for edit-warring. This is incorrect. This is my third block in five years of editing, and is on a technical offense ie 2 reverts. Those two reverts were done under the provocation of a massive non-consensus edit to the article, and were committed in the heat of the moment. Further to the suggestion of Andy Walsh on my talk page, I am willing to agree to a 0RR presence on the Catholic Church page if unblocked soon. (offer not taken up after nearly four days) With these major changes currently being discussed, and Nancy heisse now also blocked, I think it is necessary that major editors of the current article be represented in those significant discussions.
Xan
dar 20:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC) ADDITION as at 15.3.10: Serious questions need to be asked about what is beginning to seem like the improper political use of one-sided blocking of key contributors by certain admins in order to try to alter content issues on the Catholic Church page.
Xan
dar 03:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
"The cabal is out to get me" is not a valid unblocking rationale. SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 03:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
My offer (of 11th March) to 0RR on the Catholic Church page if my block was swiftly lifted has clearly not been agreed to. Therefore the offer falls. I will abide by the same 1RR rule as other editors have been asked to. Xan dar 19:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I must also say that I oppose any poll on Ubercryxics drastic changes to the Catholic Church article before there has been an opportunity to discuss and debate the reasoning behind, and the deficits of the proposed changes.
As far as I can see, the changes are typical of those done in haste by someone who knows very little about the subject. Having the History section first is insupportable, since it stops the article fulfilling its primary purpose for most readers i.e. telling people what the Church is, does and believes and practices NOW.
The changes to the beliefs section are catastrophic, since they completely mangle and destroy the sections on belief in so many ways it is impossible to list them all. Huge and importanmt sections of the belief section have been hacked away to make an incoherent mess. I know this is of zero importance to most of the people who oppose the present text - but it is of importance to the accuracy of the article and to Wikipedia.
Removal of sections like origin amd Mission and Cultural Influence are also unjustified and not acceptable in an article purporting to provide full and comprehensive coverage of the subject. In all this is a joke of an attempt to re-write the article.
Any attempt to implement anything like this without the proper full discussion, justification, consensus and debate is completely out of line with the central principles of Wikipedia, and would be strongly opposed. I would urge people to step back from this appalling proposal and return to trying to achieve source and reference-based consensus forming. Xan dar 02:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec)Xandar, I can understand your frustration, but I think you may have misunderstood a bit the point of the straw poll. You had proposed, and Nancy had alluded to, that the current article should be considered a base point for making changes. Uber is instead proposing a different version as the base. The key is that Uber is not proposing that his version is perfect, and it is highly likely that we will need to dissect it in detail and I am sure that lots of changes will need to be made. It is a failure of good faith to assume that those who have commented in the poll in a manner you disagree with have not given "any form of ordered consideration or thought with respect to the proposed alterations". I'm also not sure what evidence you are looking for "that many of the people voting have any interest in or knowledge of the topics and changes proposed." The vast majority of those who have commented have been active on the article talk page at one time or another, or have followed the article through FAC. If they arrived from one of the notifications left at the wikiproject talk pages, then they have obviously shown an interest in the article. Do you think that participation in the discussion should be restricted? If so, to whom? What would editors need to say tto convince you that they have considered the arguments yet still reached a conclusion that is different from yours? Karanacs ( talk) 20:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
PS If you have an opinion on Geometry's Guy's question at Talk:Catholic_Church#GAR_Advice, I'll proxy it for you on the talk page. Karanacs ( talk) 21:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The article has been unprotected, the straw poll has been declared dead, and I have gone ahead and implemented the new version of the article, per majority consensus. The final vote when the straw poll was declared dead was 11-7 (61% in favor of the new version). I look forward to working with you when your block expires. Please see the talk page for more details. Try to work through consensus and do not revert to the previous version. Thank you in advance for your cooperation through these difficult times. UberCryxic (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I notice that Nancy is suggesting an RFC. My view is that any proper RFC must be a part of and follow discussion on the SUBSTANTIVE CONTENT ISSUES raised by the changes, (or rather slash and burn,) initiated by UnerCryxic. In other words it must be based on the article content changes and removals. As such the first stage needs to be a full summation and criticism by myself, nancy and other editors, of the changes carried out on the article since March 10th, and a discussion of these points. If agreement cannot be reached, then an RFC question would be formulated and the positions and alternatives clearly set out. Anything less would not be in accordance with WIkipedia principles and policies on consensus decision making. I would oppose any RFC without full discussion of the substantive issues in question, and without both alternative visions of the page being available to participants, to be studied BEFORE "voting"> Xan dar 01:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. I'm not sure how much you've been following Talk:Catholic Church in the last week. Just in case you havne't been following closely, I wanted to let you know that I've archived a lot of the discussions to Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 46 and Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 45 because the talk page has been very busy and slow to load. Feel free to reinstate any of those discussions on the article talk page if you think it necessary. Karanacs ( talk) 19:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Xandar, I agree with much of what you say, but frankly you & Nancy, perhaps especially you in some ways, have brought it on yourselves. The rows will now clearly stretch on until the crack of doom, & I will be absenting myself for a long sabbatical. Uber & Karanacs have for now installed themselves as the Junta, just as Nancy & you did. Let's see what comes of it. You might be interested in Wikipedia:Featured_article_review#Military_history_of_France, where the differences between my ideas as to what an FA on a large subject should be like and Uber's are raised in a different context. Johnbod ( talk) 14:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
{{
unblock|Your reason here}}
below, but you should read our
guide to appealing blocks first.
SarekOfVulcan (
talk) 14:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Xandar, I asked Sarek if he'd agree to shortening your block if you'd acknowledge your error and leave the same note with all others who commented on the straw poll. He agreed, so the ball's in your court. Karanacs ( talk) 14:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, yes, I did comment on the article several days ago when I just took a quick look. But I did not read the talk page discussion where you recently commented on the changes for more than 3 seconds today. I just glanced and stopped. It was more of the same. It will probably be more talk, then some more talk and then some more talk. After that everyone will do some more talking. There are too many people there with deep feelings for/against each other. Participating in that discussion is a waste of life in my view. Wikipedia policies are inadequate here, as I had said before. While everone was hating each other on that talk page, I took some time off from religion to write History of randomness. It was more fun than that talk page. I hope you will like it.
I did take a quick look at the article and it looks like it was run over by a bus. But please do not sweat it. The Church has always out-lived its critics, and it will out-live all of us too, for or against these changes.
There may be a "Hail Mary" path (pun intended) to fix this article in the long run. But it can not be done by talking on that talk page for ever. My suggestion is to let this cool off and then think of a better, more constructive way much later, maybe in a few months. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 14:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I actually like what you have proposed with regard to scaling back "History" to a summary and refering users to a "History of the Catholic Church" article. It would eliminate the POV wars, etc. I do remember at one point my objection to the article was 0 mention of Therese of Avilla, Francis of Assissi, the Rosary, etc; yet paragraphs on Luther, Hitler, etc. I do think that the enormous amount of work that you and Nancy put into this article should be introduced into the sub articles on history, and the sub articles on those. This could have the potential to be a great source of knowledge about the Church. The other upside is rather than the bickering, erdit-warring, namecalling, etc one could simply point an objector to the appropriate article.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Xander, I was going to provide suggestions later, but since you seem intent on continuing on this article, here are my suggestions for you, (and of course the other 3,000 people who in the best of Wikipedia tradition have their binoculars focused on here). I provide my suggestions to you, because in the end you are probably one of the best people to fix that page, if you change strategy and loyalties, as below.
1. Please accept the facts. You are outnumbered on the Cath Church page now and Wikipedia is as much about numbers as logic. There is no point in discussing page length there, as I hinted above. And then it gets worse. So do not bother to talk and talk over there. You are persona nongrata there, and they will just threaten to have you ceremoniously flogged until you admit the errors of your ways. Just stop bickering over there.
2. Stop having faith in Wikipedia policies. Wiki justice is often random since "consensus" depends on who happens to be present on a page at a given time. If 36 students on springbreak decide to walk over right now to vote on changes as a prank to rewrite it backwards, they can get consensus to do pretty much whatever they want. So give up on the belief in the Wiki-process. It works once in a while, but not always.
3. Accept that your previous strategy did not work. In my view, your errors were two fold, and related:
I did not walk off that page because of the opposition, for I could handle them. I walked off because of Nancy. It was clear to me that her zeal was limitless and resulted in really exaggerated claims. There was no end to them and they infuriated some of the opposition into making similarly exaggerated statements. I thought: with friends like that who needs opposition? The claim that Catholic schools are most respected in the world was just an example. How can anyone with a sense of logic not over-ridden by emotion try to insert that into an encyclopedia? As I said, it would take $100 million in opinion research just to estimate the validity of that statement. And what does it teach a reader? It was not educational, it was a press release sound bite. But the e-straw that broke the e-camel's back was the sudden introduction of the Harvard Crimson insanity just as we were having a careful discussion on the reduction of the History section. I found that just an insult to the intelligence of Catholics and atheists alike. Contrary to popular belief, being a Catholic does not require a lobotomy at the moment of baptism. Some Catholics do think once in a while and many of them, like me find extreme positions such as the distasteful Harvard Crimson debate just meaningless.
Accept advice, and do not wear rose colored glasses when you view the Church. I think long ago Taam said that the article's tone was that the Church can do no wrong. I think he was right, and that tone existed throughout. You do not have to defend the inquisition, or all the actions of every pope. I felt that if Nancy had her way, many of the claims in the article would be so exaggerated and extreme that they would have even been too embarassing for a press release by Agenzia Fides. For any exaggerated statement, one can find some reference, but that is not the way to be constructive. Some of the opposition such as Haldraper and Karanacs had many valid points. Do listen to the opposition as well as friends.
What to do next? As they say the Chinese character for trouble also includes the character for opportunity. I think the suggestion that Mike Searson made makes a lot of sense. This is an opportunity to build a nice set of articles that work in harmony to present information about the Church, free of exaggerations.
My suggestions:
1. Build on value. The article, if it had been rid of the exaggerated claims and the extra baggage in the History section was actually very good in most cases. Your advantage over the current version is that you actually know the topic. Among all the disagreements, there was just one item that everyone agreed upon: that the History section was the weakest, most overweight and in my view also the only unreadable section. I actually used to think of the History section as a heavy garbage truck being towed by a nice car. Now the garbage truck leads the article and the car has been traded in for a much smaller more spartan model. In time people will figure that out. But do not sweat that yet. Let it be for now. The Church has been there for 2,000 years and a few weeks or months makes no difference.
2. Use their tactic, but do better. Set up a subpage of your own and cooperate with a few selected people to build a proposal. Do not do it alone, so you get multiple perspectives. I suggest inviting just Mike and Richard to help you as a start and asking Haldraper to act as a critical voice if he agrees. Do not invite Nancy for the reasons above and do not invite me because I am lazy. If you can convince Johnbod into commenting that will be great, but he seems to have had enough of this now. As the article group grows, asks comments from 5 to 7 other editors to give it balance.
3. Set up the sub-article structure first. You need 7-8 sub-articles with a top article that ties them together. Many of the articles exist, but some such as Catholic Theology are in need of help. As Mike said, an article that mentioned no saints and no rosary was missing a lot. And for Heaven's sake do some type of sub-article on Catholic spirituality, and refer to that instead of just debating the number of priests.
Then the project will take on a life of its own, and it will lead you. Remember: many churches were burned down, most were rebuilt as even better churches. This article is in a mess now, and you have had a temporary set back. You can rebuild, but not on that talk page. After the new article is ready in your user-space, then it will probably outrank the current attempt so much that you can go through multiple routes to improve the situation. I am really going to stop reading this talk page and the article for a while now. Cheers. History2007 ( talk) 01:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Article title. DrKiernan ( talk) 09:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC) (Using {{ Please see}})
Just letting you know that I've created the structure for an RfC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Catholic Church, in case you or NancyHeise want to use it. If you do, you could collaborate on the "statement of the dispute" section. Or you could each write one, or one of you could write "statement of dispute," and another could write a different section lower down. It's up to you entirely, and there's no absolutely set format, so you can mix and match. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 17:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Please comment on this suggested compromise—on that page, please. SlimVirgin talk contribs 22:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
From past discussions, I know that you have been very unhappy with the state of relations on the CC article. I have called for a more collaborative approach. It seems to be a case of "well I would but the other side won't stop." It seems to me that there is a desire on the part of some editors to try to work more collaboratively if others did.
If you want to move in that direction, now might be a good time to give a sign of good faith. One thing I do not think we should do though is get into any postmortems. The current discussion has turned toward what we could do to establish a new approach. My question for you is: would you be ready to work collaboratively with others on the CC article? Please don't feel compelled to reply if you are not ready to. Sunray ( talk) 06:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. You stated somewhere that you weren't sure where SlimVirgin had posted a question to you. I think Richard just reiterated it here, if you want to answer. Karanacs ( talk) 20:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/06/why_did_the_pope_keep_quiet_about_hitler?page=0,0
Read the intro in italics and tell me what you think the average reader is expected to think at the end of it.
Then read the article and tell me what conclusion the article author actually reaches.
Amazing... you know that I am no blind defender of the Church or Pius XII but this sort of manipulation is truly atrocious.
-- Richard S ( talk) 01:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi Xandar. I hope everything is okay with you - it looks like you haven't been editing in a little while. When you return, I hope you will take a look at Talk:Catholic_Church#Early_Christianity_last_paragraph_-_persecutions; your perspective is welcome. Karanacs ( talk) 17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, Xandar, hope you're doing well. Discussion has been reignited at the Christmas talk page regarding use of "religious holiday" and the celebratory dates of January 6 and January 7 in the lead paragraph. Since you've participated in related discussion at that talk page before, I invite you to join the discussion at Talk:Christmas#Lead. Thanks. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 10:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
If you could strike things that have been addressed to your satisfaction, that would be spiffy. ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 17:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).
Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.
When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.
If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Karanacs ( talk) 17:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
....is messy! I was wasting time wandering around Wikipedia tonight and wandered over here to see what you are up to. You have discussions going on your userpage instead of here. Since I have been on a super cleaning binge this summer it was difficult for me to resist fixing it myself. Hope you are having a nice summer in Merry (and sunny) England! (and find time to fix your userpage) NancyHeise talk 01:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Your input on the length of the Catholic Church article would be welcome at Talk:Catholic Church#Long_version. — Jeff G. ツ 21:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
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On Talk:Catholic Church, you asserted that the dioceses of Boston and L.A. had specifically denied that such closures were linked to the sexual abuse scandal. This runs counter to the impression given by quite a number of press coverage. There are at least a few articles in Wikipedia which assert this linkage. I would like to look at the original sources and then revisit our articles on the topic to adjust the assertion that there is a linkage as appropriate. Can you point me in the direction of sources which back up your assertion? -- Richard S ( talk) 16:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Mray Vincent's book 'catholicism in the Second Spanish Republic' (Oxford University press ) ,sorry its not the Ctaholic Herald or whatever you think is mainstream, is not fringe. In it she argues that the descent into war occurred because of the closing down of the moderate political options represented by men like Unamuno and Villalobos. She is clearly not an extremist then. " The tragedy of the Second Republic was that it abetted its own destruction; the tragedy of the Church was that it became so closely allied with its self-styled defenders that its own sphere of action was severely compromised." Its self styled defenders, the CEDA, and Carlists like Lamamie de Clairac, openly contemptuous of democracy. There was much talk in catholic publications of Masonic plots and Vincent writes this fear of plots " was also linked to the rampant anti-semitism which was a familiar feature of much Catholic culture." i know you think the Church was attacked totally unprovoked and is 100% innocent but reality is the master, as larry durrell once said. NPOV Sayerslle ( talk) 19:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello Xandar, I'm working out an outline for Practices and Beliefs and saw your post over on the talk page. When you've the time, and if you're willing, it'd be helpful for me if you'd post some examples from other versions that might be used as starting point here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Malke_2010/Catholic_Church. Thanks. Malke 2010 ( talk) 19:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Help us come to a proper consensus and vote Talk:Jessica_(entertainer)#Move.3F. Thank you. 200.21.15.109 ( talk) 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Your edit of October 22, 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Catholic_Church&diff=392123792&oldid=3773480
states "this needs to be retained".
Why?
One of your edits states : "Its leader is the pope." To shed some light on your insight, the Roman Catholic Church has Jesus Christ as its leader, not the "pope".
Is it too much to ask of you to correct an error which you wrote several years ago?
If not, change "Its leader is the pope." to "Its leader is Jesus Christ."
Then you and your followers won't be in the wrong. Prophet of the Most High ( talk) 16:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Its visible leader, a follower of Jesus Christ, is called the Vicar of Christ. The word "pope" is a bastardization forbidden by Jesus Christ. Prophet of the Most High ( talk) 17:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Dear friend , could you please assists me to solve Problem of this Article Talk:Merciline Jayakody/Temp-- Wipeouting ( talk) 15:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry. I was not consciously trying to rain on anyone's parade, just giving my two cents. You've been a valuable and consistent contributor to religious articles and I would hope to remain "on your good side!"
Nor am I trying to "win an argument." I am in a number of secular organizations. The use of secular names is very useful to get people interested in a topic. They are put off by religious adjectives. They would not read "Mohamed (Blessed Be His Name)" any more than they would read "Blessed Virgin Mary." Readers need to be pampered carefully IMO. It takes time for them to work their way up to the state of mind a believer might have. But that is just MO. Student7 ( talk) 22:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi... I have done a lot of work recently on Christianity and violence. I have tried to make it an NPOV treatment of the topic. However, I suspect there may be areas where the pro-Christianity POV is inadequately presented. I wonder if you could take a look at the article and express your opinion on the article's talk page. Thanx. -- Richard S ( talk) 21:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Please click on the link for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir - this is the best Christmas Carol performace. It made me think of how God's message really goes out to everyone in the world and we are all united with each other in whatever country or Christian religious branch we happen to belong to if we are believers and practicers. PS. You need to clean up your user and talk pages! You still have a message from last Christmas on here - geesh! NancyHeise talk 16:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I have access to a variety of excellent books thanks to my new job. I'd like your commentary on my proposed revision, as I work through the existing text. Benkenobi18 ( talk) 08:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
ICHTHUS |
January 2012 |
In this issue...
You are invited to join the discussion at Template_talk:Catholicism#Edit_request_on_7_December_2012 to edit the list of Doctors of the Church to add John of Avila and Hildegard of Bingen and do this by embedding Template:Churchdoctor. I am messaging you because you are a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Catholicism -- Jayarathina ( talk) 16:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
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