@ Philg88: Hi! This is not an ordinary copy edit request, but rather a need for a second pair of eyes, preferably eyes belonging to someone familiar with the Canton trade. Thanks to Carl Linnaeus we now have a couple of maps made in Canton in 1748 by a cartographer. Linné was a sneaky guy. In order to get his “disciples” to distant lands he enrolled them as ships chaplains on the SOIC ships. (Main: Apostles of Linnaeus) This caught on back in Sweden, and in 1748 the Royal Academy of Science (with all the Grills) sent out a scientist (or whatever passed for a scientist in those days) on one of the ships to record and make maps of everything interesting during the journey. I’m going to make a new section about this science stuff in the SOIC article.
The journal/diary is here, page #26 and #27 for the maps among the digitized things in the Gothenburg Library. I have seen the maps mentioned in several books and small sections of them, or badly made replicas with partial inaccurate transcriptions in some, but they have never been completely published, transcribed or translated before. Naturally, this was a challenge I could not resist, so I’ve been tinkering with two of them for a while now. They are in 18th century Swenglish, spiced with Chinese and Portugese so not the easiest thing to translate! They also require someone with knowledge of both the Swedish and the Cantonese side of things. During this project I have picked up enough about the Canton side to at least have a go at them, but they need to be rechecked by someone like you, especially regarding the names of the mandarins.
To check how good this guy was and how accurate the maps might be, I made an overlay of his Asia map (page #19 in the diary) on a screenshot of a Google map. I was simply astonished by how accurate it really was! (I saved the file and can e-mail it to you if you want) So I think we can assume that this might be some of the most accurate maps of Canton during the time of the trade. Most of the previous maps on the WP are from a century later, but these are made on site, smack in the middle of things. (Yes, I know I’m a bit too exited about this, but I think you understand.^^) By sheer coincidence these maps are also made during one of the years when Sweden had two factories in Canton. So, not only do we know that they broke the law, we also have a map of where the factories were. As seen on the maps, this was not the only law they broke… I realize that the maps are primary sources, and no facts from them will be used in the article, but it’s nice to have translations on them even if it’s only in an illustration.
The Swedish transcriptions are right off the maps (except for some inevitable typos). I have kept the translation as close to the original language as possible, which is very much a “Here be dragons”-language. 18th century Swenglish makes for rather poor 21st century English, but I like to keep it that way. Or do you have any suggestions? Some of the text and descriptions are simply ludicrous, but the maps seems to be solid. I’m curious as to why he makes distinctions between Chinese and Tartars, but that has nothing to do with the article, just another mystery. The maps are now in hi res and a bit enhanced so that it’s possible to read the notes on them, and I have all the original files so it is very easy to correct the text even if it is all in jpeg. I have also uploaded hi res versions of the original “blank” maps. The maps are now in my sandbox. Best, w.carter -Talk 17:54, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Hey
kompis Exciting indeed! I need to look at this in depth but here's a quick answer to your Chinese/Tartar question. The
Qing dynasty were
Manchus (also known as Tartars) and had a horror of mixing with the unwashed masses, who were
Han. As a result, they segregated cities (
Beijing is another example) into a "Chinese City" (i.e. Han) and a "Manchu City". A primitive form of apartheid, oriental style if you like, which also extended to the
Imperial examinations by favouring those of Manchu birth. Cheers,
Philg88 ♦
talk 18:20, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Take all the time
you need, :) I have plenty of other things to do in the meantime, but I thought it was time to reveal my little treasure. And thanks for the explanation, so much more to learn. Best,
w.carter
-Talk 18:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- @ Philg88: To make it all a bit easier, I have copied the text files from the maps to my sandbox below the maps. I have already found several typos and mistakes, but I leave it for now. The text does not look as good in WP format, but it is better for ce. Cheers, w.carter -Talk 20:18, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Take all the time
you need, :) I have plenty of other things to do in the meantime, but I thought it was time to reveal my little treasure. And thanks for the explanation, so much more to learn. Best,
w.carter
-Talk 18:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
A couple of comments on the translations, kompis:
- My guess is that the "famous" Chinese painter referred to is Lam Qua (1801–1860) rather than "Laqua". However, that really screws up the dates if the map was made 50 odd years before his birth. —Must be another painter then since the mapper was dead by 1801. As you can see the mapper was not so good at spelling Chinese names. It is also possible that someone else added text to the map later.
- My money is on the latter, but that's original research and can't be said :( Philg88 ♦ talk 09:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC) —Very true. I trust the notes made in pencil, same as the map, much more than the ones made in ink. "Improvements" on maps were made all the time. Just wait till I get to Gothenburg and get my mitts on the original! I'll write a paper on it, which you can use here later. :) w.carter -Talk 10:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- "The Mandarin does not want." Foreigners were not allowed in the city - they were confined to the factory district for the trading season and had to withdraw to Macau when it finished. —I know, I only translated what was in the text on the map. Maybe something about this should be put in a bracketed comment by the translation. And since the mapper apparently was familiar with the "comment" he must have stuck his nose in a lot of places where he was not allowed to go. w.carter -Talk 09:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
As far as the map is concerned, I think it is best to stick to just transcribing and translating and avoid too much guesswork and comments. Like: When in doubt, just translate and leave interpretations to others. Some of the names of the mandarins were very easy to figure out since they are mentioned here in connection with illegal gold trade with the Swedes in 1747, so they are contemporary with the map. w.carter -Talk 10:40, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
@ Philg88: Hi! This is not an ordinary copy edit request, but rather a need for a second pair of eyes, preferably eyes belonging to someone familiar with the Canton trade. Thanks to Carl Linnaeus we now have a couple of maps made in Canton in 1748 by a cartographer. Linné was a sneaky guy. In order to get his “disciples” to distant lands he enrolled them as ships chaplains on the SOIC ships. (Main: Apostles of Linnaeus) This caught on back in Sweden, and in 1748 the Royal Academy of Science (with all the Grills) sent out a scientist (or whatever passed for a scientist in those days) on one of the ships to record and make maps of everything interesting during the journey. I’m going to make a new section about this science stuff in the SOIC article.
The journal/diary is here, page #26 and #27 for the maps among the digitized things in the Gothenburg Library. I have seen the maps mentioned in several books and small sections of them, or badly made replicas with partial inaccurate transcriptions in some, but they have never been completely published, transcribed or translated before. Naturally, this was a challenge I could not resist, so I’ve been tinkering with two of them for a while now. They are in 18th century Swenglish, spiced with Chinese and Portugese so not the easiest thing to translate! They also require someone with knowledge of both the Swedish and the Cantonese side of things. During this project I have picked up enough about the Canton side to at least have a go at them, but they need to be rechecked by someone like you, especially regarding the names of the mandarins.
To check how good this guy was and how accurate the maps might be, I made an overlay of his Asia map (page #19 in the diary) on a screenshot of a Google map. I was simply astonished by how accurate it really was! (I saved the file and can e-mail it to you if you want) So I think we can assume that this might be some of the most accurate maps of Canton during the time of the trade. Most of the previous maps on the WP are from a century later, but these are made on site, smack in the middle of things. (Yes, I know I’m a bit too exited about this, but I think you understand.^^) By sheer coincidence these maps are also made during one of the years when Sweden had two factories in Canton. So, not only do we know that they broke the law, we also have a map of where the factories were. As seen on the maps, this was not the only law they broke… I realize that the maps are primary sources, and no facts from them will be used in the article, but it’s nice to have translations on them even if it’s only in an illustration.
The Swedish transcriptions are right off the maps (except for some inevitable typos). I have kept the translation as close to the original language as possible, which is very much a “Here be dragons”-language. 18th century Swenglish makes for rather poor 21st century English, but I like to keep it that way. Or do you have any suggestions? Some of the text and descriptions are simply ludicrous, but the maps seems to be solid. I’m curious as to why he makes distinctions between Chinese and Tartars, but that has nothing to do with the article, just another mystery. The maps are now in hi res and a bit enhanced so that it’s possible to read the notes on them, and I have all the original files so it is very easy to correct the text even if it is all in jpeg. I have also uploaded hi res versions of the original “blank” maps. The maps are now in my sandbox. Best, w.carter -Talk 17:54, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Hey
kompis Exciting indeed! I need to look at this in depth but here's a quick answer to your Chinese/Tartar question. The
Qing dynasty were
Manchus (also known as Tartars) and had a horror of mixing with the unwashed masses, who were
Han. As a result, they segregated cities (
Beijing is another example) into a "Chinese City" (i.e. Han) and a "Manchu City". A primitive form of apartheid, oriental style if you like, which also extended to the
Imperial examinations by favouring those of Manchu birth. Cheers,
Philg88 ♦
talk 18:20, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Take all the time
you need, :) I have plenty of other things to do in the meantime, but I thought it was time to reveal my little treasure. And thanks for the explanation, so much more to learn. Best,
w.carter
-Talk 18:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- @ Philg88: To make it all a bit easier, I have copied the text files from the maps to my sandbox below the maps. I have already found several typos and mistakes, but I leave it for now. The text does not look as good in WP format, but it is better for ce. Cheers, w.carter -Talk 20:18, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Take all the time
you need, :) I have plenty of other things to do in the meantime, but I thought it was time to reveal my little treasure. And thanks for the explanation, so much more to learn. Best,
w.carter
-Talk 18:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
A couple of comments on the translations, kompis:
- My guess is that the "famous" Chinese painter referred to is Lam Qua (1801–1860) rather than "Laqua". However, that really screws up the dates if the map was made 50 odd years before his birth. —Must be another painter then since the mapper was dead by 1801. As you can see the mapper was not so good at spelling Chinese names. It is also possible that someone else added text to the map later.
- My money is on the latter, but that's original research and can't be said :( Philg88 ♦ talk 09:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC) —Very true. I trust the notes made in pencil, same as the map, much more than the ones made in ink. "Improvements" on maps were made all the time. Just wait till I get to Gothenburg and get my mitts on the original! I'll write a paper on it, which you can use here later. :) w.carter -Talk 10:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- "The Mandarin does not want." Foreigners were not allowed in the city - they were confined to the factory district for the trading season and had to withdraw to Macau when it finished. —I know, I only translated what was in the text on the map. Maybe something about this should be put in a bracketed comment by the translation. And since the mapper apparently was familiar with the "comment" he must have stuck his nose in a lot of places where he was not allowed to go. w.carter -Talk 09:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
As far as the map is concerned, I think it is best to stick to just transcribing and translating and avoid too much guesswork and comments. Like: When in doubt, just translate and leave interpretations to others. Some of the names of the mandarins were very easy to figure out since they are mentioned here in connection with illegal gold trade with the Swedes in 1747, so they are contemporary with the map. w.carter -Talk 10:40, 11 November 2014 (UTC)