This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If it is obvious vandalism, you can post a message in WP:AIV. If it is a content dispute (as in this case), WP:ANI will be the right place. But the most efficient way would be to contact an Indian admin (preferably one from the South, who may understand the issue better) and request him to mediate. Re. Ravi Achan, can you please enable your email. Would like to discuss something off-line. Tintin 07:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello Vivin! I see that you have altered the Nambiar article. I agree with you that Nambiars are a category of Nayars. There is one problem I have with your edits. You say that Nayars were classified as Shudras, that is because some sects of Nayars undertook menial labor work in the past, and also because the Nambuthris considered themselves so high that people below them were "shudra", including Varmas and other Rajahs. Even other Brahmins were considered lower by the Nambuthris. The problem with clubbing all Nayar subcastes under the broad banner of "Nayar" is that the various nuances between the subcastes are ignored. For example there are very wealthy and aristocratic Nambiar families from North Malabar who are Rajahs and some which have a poonul. They are mixed with the Kolathiri Rajahs. There are other Nayars who are Rajahs in other kingdoms, as there were also Nambuthri rulers. The point I am trying to make is that when you join these Nayars (Samanthanmar and Kiriyathil Nayars) with Nayars who were palanquin bearers or servants at Nambuthri residences, there is a problem. I am not saying that one caste or subcaste is higher than the other, nor do I support the caste system, which I see as a disease which plagued our country in bygone eras; but I nonetheless believe that each subcaste of Nayars should be treated upon its merits. Classifying Nambiars and other Kiriyathil Nayars as "shudras" is incorrect. The Manusmriti clearly states that it is one's Karma that determines one's Varna: "As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya" (X: 65)). Like all things devised by man, the system became corrupt, and caste became hereditary. The concept of the "Varna" is clearly explained in the Manusmriti. I find it quite amusing that people who refer to the Manusmriti and label Kiriyathil Nayars as "shudras", are in fact contradicting the very essence of its teachings. It's true: some subcastes of Nayars undertook menial labor, and could come under the classification of "shudra", however the other Nayars were rulers/warriors by birth and acts (Kshatriya dharma). Labelling the majority of Nayars as "shudras" was just another way for the puritan Nambuthris to further demonstrate their position as the highest caste. This proved useful as they replaced Nayars as the topmost caste of Kerala. "Pure shudra Nayar" was used as a derogatory term, not one which carried any historically significant value. I don't see the need to continue this act of demeaning Nayars and perpetuating prejudices by using terms that were thrown about in the past as one caste strived to maintain superiority over another caste. The Manusmriti deems Kiriyathil Nayars to be Kshatriyas. It is irrelevant what the Nambuthris called them. Kshatriya Knight
Vivin, I have read the (quite lengthy) discussion on the Nayar article, where both pro-Kshatriyas and pro-Sudras have made comments. As I have already recommended, the infobox can remain, but classification be "Warrior/Administrater", something that no one can possibly argue with. Also following the layout of the Kamboja, Pahlava, Saka and Yavana articles, since these groups have a classification controversy identical to that of the Nayars. Subtitles should be created, highlighting the Kshatriya dharma of the Nayars (but I suspect that many of those who are intent on labelling Nayars as Shudras will not appreciate this), but also another subtitle covering the fact that Nambuthris called Nayars Shudras and a reason for this labelling. We'll present the history of Nayars, warts and all, but sure that we don't play down the true duty of Nayars in our "Shudra" frenzy. This is my recommendation. Tell me what you think. Kshatriyan 05:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Vivin, I see that you have edited out the infobox on the Nambiar article. Sure, Nambiars are "Nayars" but just because a resolution has been reached in the Nair discussion page, it doesn't mean that it applies to all articles related to the Nair page. The reason for the removal of the infobox on the Nayar page was due to too much conflict. This has not occured on the Nambiar page. The classifications on the Nambiar page are also appropriate: Warrior/Administrator/Ruler. I am not trying to be stubborn, but it is a loss to leave out the infobox (which features on other articles on Indian Social Groups) Kshatriyan 05:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
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The article is readable now, and 's certainly a lot more authentic than it was. Bhattathirippadu 08:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There was a message from you. Please specify which part did I remove from the list of Nairs. I had wanted, instead to add a few names, since I am sure that Changampuzha Krishna Pillai is a more famous personality than luminaries like Chandran Nair, Singapore and Poothampallil KrishnaMenon, Advocate.I hope you will take the trouble to add these as well. If you have not heard of these people, please confirm from eminent men of letters. There are many other omissions too.Let me see first, what you intend to do with these.
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Well, I doubt it is compromised though I am keeping a watch on the contributions. No idea what happened. Will try to email him as well. BTW, the talk link in your signature doesnt work — Lost (talk) 07:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
What's so uncivil about this? How can you use that term when you have been stubborn about inserting a phrase such as "nambuthiris considered the Nair as sudra" "as a historical fact" . You have been maintaining the refrain all the while that "it does not really matter if egos are hurt, or if someone is offended by facts etc.". Your response on the discussion pages indicate your hurt; the struck out sentence beneath one of the edits does not exactly conform to what'so civil by any standards. Who are you to ask me to grow up? And what do you mean by growing up? My edit was an example of what people would normally avoid mentioning for the sake of not hurting someone else. Why should you be so offended by comments on paliathachan? Ask yourself this question. Can you refute the veracity of those statements? You have to accept that people are free to view a historical fact ( lrt's take the case of Paliathachan's premiership, for example) in an infinite number of ways, as long as the basic fact remains the same. One of those facts here was that the Paliath Achan was subservient to the Kochin King,and the caste of the former was the reason he could not elevate himself any further.( In any caser your Talk page is the place I would like to discuss my opinions.) Why should you be offended if someone states that fact? Your being offended should be of no consequence, is n't it so? It would have been civil to demand substantiation for the statement. (You would n't certainly ask for testimony as regards the form or mode of interaction between the Achan and the king; nor would you dispute the indescribable haughtiness of children from nambuthiri and Raja households towards people from other castes, irrespective of age!)That's beside the point. What hurt you - let me reiterate - was the "inappropriateness" of publishing those facts, even though they were presented to illustrate the clear demarcations between "Khsatriya" and "Nair". I would suggest- I you have conveyed to me innumerable times- that you retain the bare facts while ignoring the aspersions, if indeed you consider them so. -- Palattu Koman
Hi, you seem to have a very long running content dispute with these users. I am unable to help you as I am not online often these days and also I dont have much knowledge about the subject. Now that Deepu is gone, may you would like asking for some help from the mediation cabal... — Lost (talk) 08:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Your "talk" link was n't working.
My "user name" was blocked. It was n't that I was trying to write from 59.93.... for the sake of anonymity. I do not know why you bring in phrases such as "the spirit behind writing" wt al. That would be equivalent to bringing in the good old "ego" question.I have n't fudged the facts. I do not have a personal agenda as well.I do not understand what you mean by "trying to a get a rise out of you". I have already replied to your other accusations and do not wish to repeat.
Hey Vivin...you can get a copy of all the Travancore Manuals or also the Cochin state manual from the KCHR (Kerala Council for Historic Research) office at Vylopilly Sanskriti Bhavan, Nalanda, Trivandrum...since i dont stay in Kerala i gut my copy by VPP whereby we pay only after the product reaches us...its a little more expensive though...nevertheless its worth it...the entire transaction was through email...kchrtvm@gmail.com... i am actually interested in ordering a couple of other books as well and so i emailed them a few days back...I was given a number by PJ Cherian, the director...You can contact the man who deals with orders, a certain Mr Sivanandan at 0471 2310409 as well. Hope this info helps!!
The Tamil cat is now up for CFD as well. Baka man 00:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Since you had contributed to this article earlier, perhaps you can respond to issues raised by a user [1] who is trying to paint Indians as Jew haters [2]. Triedsolve 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If it is obvious vandalism, you can post a message in WP:AIV. If it is a content dispute (as in this case), WP:ANI will be the right place. But the most efficient way would be to contact an Indian admin (preferably one from the South, who may understand the issue better) and request him to mediate. Re. Ravi Achan, can you please enable your email. Would like to discuss something off-line. Tintin 07:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello Vivin! I see that you have altered the Nambiar article. I agree with you that Nambiars are a category of Nayars. There is one problem I have with your edits. You say that Nayars were classified as Shudras, that is because some sects of Nayars undertook menial labor work in the past, and also because the Nambuthris considered themselves so high that people below them were "shudra", including Varmas and other Rajahs. Even other Brahmins were considered lower by the Nambuthris. The problem with clubbing all Nayar subcastes under the broad banner of "Nayar" is that the various nuances between the subcastes are ignored. For example there are very wealthy and aristocratic Nambiar families from North Malabar who are Rajahs and some which have a poonul. They are mixed with the Kolathiri Rajahs. There are other Nayars who are Rajahs in other kingdoms, as there were also Nambuthri rulers. The point I am trying to make is that when you join these Nayars (Samanthanmar and Kiriyathil Nayars) with Nayars who were palanquin bearers or servants at Nambuthri residences, there is a problem. I am not saying that one caste or subcaste is higher than the other, nor do I support the caste system, which I see as a disease which plagued our country in bygone eras; but I nonetheless believe that each subcaste of Nayars should be treated upon its merits. Classifying Nambiars and other Kiriyathil Nayars as "shudras" is incorrect. The Manusmriti clearly states that it is one's Karma that determines one's Varna: "As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya" (X: 65)). Like all things devised by man, the system became corrupt, and caste became hereditary. The concept of the "Varna" is clearly explained in the Manusmriti. I find it quite amusing that people who refer to the Manusmriti and label Kiriyathil Nayars as "shudras", are in fact contradicting the very essence of its teachings. It's true: some subcastes of Nayars undertook menial labor, and could come under the classification of "shudra", however the other Nayars were rulers/warriors by birth and acts (Kshatriya dharma). Labelling the majority of Nayars as "shudras" was just another way for the puritan Nambuthris to further demonstrate their position as the highest caste. This proved useful as they replaced Nayars as the topmost caste of Kerala. "Pure shudra Nayar" was used as a derogatory term, not one which carried any historically significant value. I don't see the need to continue this act of demeaning Nayars and perpetuating prejudices by using terms that were thrown about in the past as one caste strived to maintain superiority over another caste. The Manusmriti deems Kiriyathil Nayars to be Kshatriyas. It is irrelevant what the Nambuthris called them. Kshatriya Knight
Vivin, I have read the (quite lengthy) discussion on the Nayar article, where both pro-Kshatriyas and pro-Sudras have made comments. As I have already recommended, the infobox can remain, but classification be "Warrior/Administrater", something that no one can possibly argue with. Also following the layout of the Kamboja, Pahlava, Saka and Yavana articles, since these groups have a classification controversy identical to that of the Nayars. Subtitles should be created, highlighting the Kshatriya dharma of the Nayars (but I suspect that many of those who are intent on labelling Nayars as Shudras will not appreciate this), but also another subtitle covering the fact that Nambuthris called Nayars Shudras and a reason for this labelling. We'll present the history of Nayars, warts and all, but sure that we don't play down the true duty of Nayars in our "Shudra" frenzy. This is my recommendation. Tell me what you think. Kshatriyan 05:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Vivin, I see that you have edited out the infobox on the Nambiar article. Sure, Nambiars are "Nayars" but just because a resolution has been reached in the Nair discussion page, it doesn't mean that it applies to all articles related to the Nair page. The reason for the removal of the infobox on the Nayar page was due to too much conflict. This has not occured on the Nambiar page. The classifications on the Nambiar page are also appropriate: Warrior/Administrator/Ruler. I am not trying to be stubborn, but it is a loss to leave out the infobox (which features on other articles on Indian Social Groups) Kshatriyan 05:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:Latin.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 09:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The article is readable now, and 's certainly a lot more authentic than it was. Bhattathirippadu 08:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There was a message from you. Please specify which part did I remove from the list of Nairs. I had wanted, instead to add a few names, since I am sure that Changampuzha Krishna Pillai is a more famous personality than luminaries like Chandran Nair, Singapore and Poothampallil KrishnaMenon, Advocate.I hope you will take the trouble to add these as well. If you have not heard of these people, please confirm from eminent men of letters. There are many other omissions too.Let me see first, what you intend to do with these.
Thanks for uploading Image:Us army national guard seal.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable under fair use (see our fair use policy).
If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the " my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. This is an automated message from BJBot 15:09, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I doubt it is compromised though I am keeping a watch on the contributions. No idea what happened. Will try to email him as well. BTW, the talk link in your signature doesnt work — Lost (talk) 07:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
What's so uncivil about this? How can you use that term when you have been stubborn about inserting a phrase such as "nambuthiris considered the Nair as sudra" "as a historical fact" . You have been maintaining the refrain all the while that "it does not really matter if egos are hurt, or if someone is offended by facts etc.". Your response on the discussion pages indicate your hurt; the struck out sentence beneath one of the edits does not exactly conform to what'so civil by any standards. Who are you to ask me to grow up? And what do you mean by growing up? My edit was an example of what people would normally avoid mentioning for the sake of not hurting someone else. Why should you be so offended by comments on paliathachan? Ask yourself this question. Can you refute the veracity of those statements? You have to accept that people are free to view a historical fact ( lrt's take the case of Paliathachan's premiership, for example) in an infinite number of ways, as long as the basic fact remains the same. One of those facts here was that the Paliath Achan was subservient to the Kochin King,and the caste of the former was the reason he could not elevate himself any further.( In any caser your Talk page is the place I would like to discuss my opinions.) Why should you be offended if someone states that fact? Your being offended should be of no consequence, is n't it so? It would have been civil to demand substantiation for the statement. (You would n't certainly ask for testimony as regards the form or mode of interaction between the Achan and the king; nor would you dispute the indescribable haughtiness of children from nambuthiri and Raja households towards people from other castes, irrespective of age!)That's beside the point. What hurt you - let me reiterate - was the "inappropriateness" of publishing those facts, even though they were presented to illustrate the clear demarcations between "Khsatriya" and "Nair". I would suggest- I you have conveyed to me innumerable times- that you retain the bare facts while ignoring the aspersions, if indeed you consider them so. -- Palattu Koman
Hi, you seem to have a very long running content dispute with these users. I am unable to help you as I am not online often these days and also I dont have much knowledge about the subject. Now that Deepu is gone, may you would like asking for some help from the mediation cabal... — Lost (talk) 08:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Your "talk" link was n't working.
My "user name" was blocked. It was n't that I was trying to write from 59.93.... for the sake of anonymity. I do not know why you bring in phrases such as "the spirit behind writing" wt al. That would be equivalent to bringing in the good old "ego" question.I have n't fudged the facts. I do not have a personal agenda as well.I do not understand what you mean by "trying to a get a rise out of you". I have already replied to your other accusations and do not wish to repeat.
Hey Vivin...you can get a copy of all the Travancore Manuals or also the Cochin state manual from the KCHR (Kerala Council for Historic Research) office at Vylopilly Sanskriti Bhavan, Nalanda, Trivandrum...since i dont stay in Kerala i gut my copy by VPP whereby we pay only after the product reaches us...its a little more expensive though...nevertheless its worth it...the entire transaction was through email...kchrtvm@gmail.com... i am actually interested in ordering a couple of other books as well and so i emailed them a few days back...I was given a number by PJ Cherian, the director...You can contact the man who deals with orders, a certain Mr Sivanandan at 0471 2310409 as well. Hope this info helps!!
The Tamil cat is now up for CFD as well. Baka man 00:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Since you had contributed to this article earlier, perhaps you can respond to issues raised by a user [1] who is trying to paint Indians as Jew haters [2]. Triedsolve 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)