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Hi, Vivaldi -- a while back you added to the intro of Andreas Heldal-Lund a little information to clarify that he opposes the Church of Scientology because of the management being criminal and corrupt. I went to put a citation to his exact words and couldn't find where he'd said it in those words. Could you find the citation, or replace it with a cited quote? Thanks! -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been following the Hyles controversy for some time and there are a number of things that trouble me, not the least of which is the timing of Sumner's rehash of the whole thing in the July 2003 publication of his paper, the Biblical Evangelist. Hyles, of course, is unable to defend his position. That oddity aside, here are some other peculiar things: 1.) this whole thing seems to have originated with an article by Sumner ("One of The Blights of Bigness," The Biblical Evangelist, October 1, 1988), in which he castigated Hyles, without actually naming him, for sundry sins/flaws/mistakes, et. al. 2.) Subsequent to that article, Sumner alleges to have received an untold number of inquiries and unsolicited (?) information, but names none of them except one deacon in FBCH, Vic Nischik. (Mr. Nischik alleged that Hyles had stolen Nischik's wife, Jennie, and that upon the orders of Hyles Nischik was relegated to being a mere tenant in the Nischik household, while Hyles dictated how the Nischik household was to be run. Nischik further alleged that Hyles lavished gifts of money, cars, etc., on Jennie, while Nischik himself slept on a cot in the basement.) 3.) Mr. Sumner thence followed the October 1988 editorial with another one, "The Saddest Story We Ever Published", The Biblical Evangelist, May 1, 1989, in which he reiterates the earlier article's tone along with what he called "facts." To show how slanted Mr. Sumner's view is, in one of the paragraphs in the May 1989 publication, Mr. Sumner says, in the section titled, "The Mess Permeates All Of First Baptist Church & Hyles-Anderson College", second paragraph: "Before we start, perhaps we should say again that we are not charging Jack Hyles with adultery at this time." and in same section, Item 2 "In 1971, when Jennie first demanded that Vic leave, Hyles came to him and asked if once a divorce had been granted, he had permission to marry her. Obviously, there were no witnesses to this conversation and its truthfulness or falseness should be evaluated in the light of everything else this article reveals." 4.) Mr. Sumner got his information from Vic Nischik and another deacon George Godfrey. Throughout all the articles he wrote, he variously refers to "one lady", "A man who taught", "One man", "a dear brother whom I have long respected", "Another deacon", "one First Baptist deacon", "A student who served as a security guard", "One minister", "a janitor", "two deacons", "a lady", "One of the men", etc., etc.,...yet he never names who any of these people are, which is a curious and, perhaps, convenient omission by Mr. Sumner. 5.) Mr. Sumner enlisted the services of an attorney, one Voyle Glover, to go over the "records" and "facts" Sumner had accumulated. (It should be noted that Mr. Sumner provides not one copy in any of the articles of any of the documents he claims to have had!) Mr. Glover conveniently also, substantiates Mr. Sumner's "position." It should be noted that Mr. Glover was employed by Mr. Sumner. I'm not trying to imply anything, but do find that fact curious. 6.) Messrs. Nischik, Sumner, Godfrey and Glover offer no direct testimony or evidence (besides Hyles or Jennie) from anyone else save Mr. Nischik's daughter, Judy. There are no interviews or depositions offered of the Hyles' daughters or Mrs. Hyles (the latter only "quoted" in snippets allegedly attributed to her without verification.) In short, I surmise that Mr. Sumner had an axe to grind with Hyles because of a ruckus some years before at the Sword of the Lord, when Dr John R. Rice's successor was chosen. It is well known that Mr. Sumner, once a prolific contributor to the Sword wanted that position, but Dr. Rice chose Curtis Hutson over Sumner. Hyles backed Dr. Rice and it wasn't too long after that this whole mess began. -- added by RedlumXoF ( talk · contribs · count) on 11:41, 19 July 2006
Happy Ho Ho's and good editing ! Terryeo 08:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
You are going against editor concensus when you re-insert that Scientology Cross logo on the template. at: [1], According to Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum, the logo on the template did not qualify as "free" and there is no way to create anything imitating the logo and consider it "free." --Davidstrauss 15:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC). ??? baffles me why you would consider yourself more expert than the expert, Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum. Terryeo 08:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Look - I think we got off to a bad start. I feel that articles about living people need to be scrupulously documented. Thus my bold start on the article. I am not challenging that what you have written is true or not - just that it needs to be documented to a specific source. For example, if the courts have ruled in every case against Schwarz then we should be able to find a legal commentator to refer to when we put that information in the article - we shouldn't have to tell people - read all the caes below to verify that claim - thx -- Trödel 06:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I am honestly trying to help the article be better. I don't know if you noticed Fred Bauder's edit summary "Cleaning it up a bit is an alternative to blanking and protection." After seeing the request on Jimbo's talk page - I thought the complaint has some merit and started trying to edit it for just this reason. If the article does not get more neutral very quickly - it will most likely be blanked, a stub created and then protected - it has happened before. And while I find it very frustration, I also agree with the policy under which such drastic actions are taken. This policy protects Wikipedia, and more importantly protects my investment in wikipedia - I want to see wikipedia become the encyclopedia - and have people everywhere be able to use a comprehensive tool that could, quite frankly, change their lives for better.
Anyway - enough of me on the soapbox. I hope you will sincerely consider the edit changes that I made today. -- Trödel 23:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Vivaldi. I looked at both the link you provided me and everything I could find on his academic background through google. Unfortunately I was unable to turn up any evidence that he has earned or was granted a doctorate anywhere. It's true that the biography you linked me to lists him as having a D.D., but nowhere in the text of it does it mention him ever going beyond a Master's degree. As I said on the talk page of the H-A article, I have no qualms at all about listing any official or honorary titles he has, I just can't find the record of where he has gained one. Thank you, and happy editing, -- Kuzaar- T- C- 14:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This is still ongoing: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Vivaldi.
I assume you mean ESL344G ( talk · contribs · logs)! The user has been blocked. I apologise for the delay, as I thought that the only sock that was in question was Nikitchenko. Thanks, Iola k ana| T 20:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Why did you remove the word "violent" when it is supported by the references given? Your edit summary gave no explanation for the removal of violent. -- HResearcher 02:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Vivaldi, I find edits like this [2] troublesome. You've had issues with the criticism on the article; why did you move a section out of controversy where he instructs people to pray instead of seek medical help? So I put it back in. [3] Please be more careful regarding what you change and explain it on the talk. C56C 20:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I sincerely must apologize to you about my comments which caused friction between you and I. Since the history is unviewable, I was thinking you were one of the users doing what I accused you of. Now it is impossible to tell, unless an admin goes through all the edits of the deleted version, if that is even possible. But since it is gone, I'll drop it and never mention it again unless it becomes an issue in the future. -- HResearcher 10:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Vivaldi for your Support! |
PS: YES YOU'RE RIGHT HARRY POTTER USES A BROOM! (BUT GOOD MOPS ARE HARD TO FIND!!)
PS: Thanks especially to you for your kind comments in the RfA - they meant a lot. (Hope someone who will remain nameless isnt too scared now ;) You rock - GIen 04:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
A person who uses the name "Peter" asks Laurie Hamilton (an expert in my opinion, based on reading many of her answers) the question you asked me. She responds, here. Anything more that you wish to discuss about that? Terryeo 05:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Hi, Vivaldi -- a while back you added to the intro of Andreas Heldal-Lund a little information to clarify that he opposes the Church of Scientology because of the management being criminal and corrupt. I went to put a citation to his exact words and couldn't find where he'd said it in those words. Could you find the citation, or replace it with a cited quote? Thanks! -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been following the Hyles controversy for some time and there are a number of things that trouble me, not the least of which is the timing of Sumner's rehash of the whole thing in the July 2003 publication of his paper, the Biblical Evangelist. Hyles, of course, is unable to defend his position. That oddity aside, here are some other peculiar things: 1.) this whole thing seems to have originated with an article by Sumner ("One of The Blights of Bigness," The Biblical Evangelist, October 1, 1988), in which he castigated Hyles, without actually naming him, for sundry sins/flaws/mistakes, et. al. 2.) Subsequent to that article, Sumner alleges to have received an untold number of inquiries and unsolicited (?) information, but names none of them except one deacon in FBCH, Vic Nischik. (Mr. Nischik alleged that Hyles had stolen Nischik's wife, Jennie, and that upon the orders of Hyles Nischik was relegated to being a mere tenant in the Nischik household, while Hyles dictated how the Nischik household was to be run. Nischik further alleged that Hyles lavished gifts of money, cars, etc., on Jennie, while Nischik himself slept on a cot in the basement.) 3.) Mr. Sumner thence followed the October 1988 editorial with another one, "The Saddest Story We Ever Published", The Biblical Evangelist, May 1, 1989, in which he reiterates the earlier article's tone along with what he called "facts." To show how slanted Mr. Sumner's view is, in one of the paragraphs in the May 1989 publication, Mr. Sumner says, in the section titled, "The Mess Permeates All Of First Baptist Church & Hyles-Anderson College", second paragraph: "Before we start, perhaps we should say again that we are not charging Jack Hyles with adultery at this time." and in same section, Item 2 "In 1971, when Jennie first demanded that Vic leave, Hyles came to him and asked if once a divorce had been granted, he had permission to marry her. Obviously, there were no witnesses to this conversation and its truthfulness or falseness should be evaluated in the light of everything else this article reveals." 4.) Mr. Sumner got his information from Vic Nischik and another deacon George Godfrey. Throughout all the articles he wrote, he variously refers to "one lady", "A man who taught", "One man", "a dear brother whom I have long respected", "Another deacon", "one First Baptist deacon", "A student who served as a security guard", "One minister", "a janitor", "two deacons", "a lady", "One of the men", etc., etc.,...yet he never names who any of these people are, which is a curious and, perhaps, convenient omission by Mr. Sumner. 5.) Mr. Sumner enlisted the services of an attorney, one Voyle Glover, to go over the "records" and "facts" Sumner had accumulated. (It should be noted that Mr. Sumner provides not one copy in any of the articles of any of the documents he claims to have had!) Mr. Glover conveniently also, substantiates Mr. Sumner's "position." It should be noted that Mr. Glover was employed by Mr. Sumner. I'm not trying to imply anything, but do find that fact curious. 6.) Messrs. Nischik, Sumner, Godfrey and Glover offer no direct testimony or evidence (besides Hyles or Jennie) from anyone else save Mr. Nischik's daughter, Judy. There are no interviews or depositions offered of the Hyles' daughters or Mrs. Hyles (the latter only "quoted" in snippets allegedly attributed to her without verification.) In short, I surmise that Mr. Sumner had an axe to grind with Hyles because of a ruckus some years before at the Sword of the Lord, when Dr John R. Rice's successor was chosen. It is well known that Mr. Sumner, once a prolific contributor to the Sword wanted that position, but Dr. Rice chose Curtis Hutson over Sumner. Hyles backed Dr. Rice and it wasn't too long after that this whole mess began. -- added by RedlumXoF ( talk · contribs · count) on 11:41, 19 July 2006
Happy Ho Ho's and good editing ! Terryeo 08:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
You are going against editor concensus when you re-insert that Scientology Cross logo on the template. at: [1], According to Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum, the logo on the template did not qualify as "free" and there is no way to create anything imitating the logo and consider it "free." --Davidstrauss 15:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC). ??? baffles me why you would consider yourself more expert than the expert, Jean-Baptiste Soufron, host of the Wikimania 2006 copyright forum. Terryeo 08:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Look - I think we got off to a bad start. I feel that articles about living people need to be scrupulously documented. Thus my bold start on the article. I am not challenging that what you have written is true or not - just that it needs to be documented to a specific source. For example, if the courts have ruled in every case against Schwarz then we should be able to find a legal commentator to refer to when we put that information in the article - we shouldn't have to tell people - read all the caes below to verify that claim - thx -- Trödel 06:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I am honestly trying to help the article be better. I don't know if you noticed Fred Bauder's edit summary "Cleaning it up a bit is an alternative to blanking and protection." After seeing the request on Jimbo's talk page - I thought the complaint has some merit and started trying to edit it for just this reason. If the article does not get more neutral very quickly - it will most likely be blanked, a stub created and then protected - it has happened before. And while I find it very frustration, I also agree with the policy under which such drastic actions are taken. This policy protects Wikipedia, and more importantly protects my investment in wikipedia - I want to see wikipedia become the encyclopedia - and have people everywhere be able to use a comprehensive tool that could, quite frankly, change their lives for better.
Anyway - enough of me on the soapbox. I hope you will sincerely consider the edit changes that I made today. -- Trödel 23:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Vivaldi. I looked at both the link you provided me and everything I could find on his academic background through google. Unfortunately I was unable to turn up any evidence that he has earned or was granted a doctorate anywhere. It's true that the biography you linked me to lists him as having a D.D., but nowhere in the text of it does it mention him ever going beyond a Master's degree. As I said on the talk page of the H-A article, I have no qualms at all about listing any official or honorary titles he has, I just can't find the record of where he has gained one. Thank you, and happy editing, -- Kuzaar- T- C- 14:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This is still ongoing: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Vivaldi.
I assume you mean ESL344G ( talk · contribs · logs)! The user has been blocked. I apologise for the delay, as I thought that the only sock that was in question was Nikitchenko. Thanks, Iola k ana| T 20:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Why did you remove the word "violent" when it is supported by the references given? Your edit summary gave no explanation for the removal of violent. -- HResearcher 02:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Vivaldi, I find edits like this [2] troublesome. You've had issues with the criticism on the article; why did you move a section out of controversy where he instructs people to pray instead of seek medical help? So I put it back in. [3] Please be more careful regarding what you change and explain it on the talk. C56C 20:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I sincerely must apologize to you about my comments which caused friction between you and I. Since the history is unviewable, I was thinking you were one of the users doing what I accused you of. Now it is impossible to tell, unless an admin goes through all the edits of the deleted version, if that is even possible. But since it is gone, I'll drop it and never mention it again unless it becomes an issue in the future. -- HResearcher 10:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Vivaldi for your Support! |
PS: YES YOU'RE RIGHT HARRY POTTER USES A BROOM! (BUT GOOD MOPS ARE HARD TO FIND!!)
PS: Thanks especially to you for your kind comments in the RfA - they meant a lot. (Hope someone who will remain nameless isnt too scared now ;) You rock - GIen 04:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
A person who uses the name "Peter" asks Laurie Hamilton (an expert in my opinion, based on reading many of her answers) the question you asked me. She responds, here. Anything more that you wish to discuss about that? Terryeo 05:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)