Hi, Just noticed that nobody had welcomed you. So here you go -
Hello, Veliath, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question.
Hi,
You might be interested in these links:
Jisha C J 18:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Veliath, you are right the page Nasrani should be redirected to the page Syrian malabar nasrani, or to the page Syriac Christianity.
it was originally redirected to Syriac Christianity but several vandals tampered with the pages on syrian malabar nasrani and st thomas christians. In fact there was an entire section on st thomas christians explaining its nasrani context which was systematically destroyed by vandals. Instead they wrote in factually inaccurate statements about the st thomas christians being marathas and telegu which is still there on the page Saint Thomas Christians.
here I post to you the passages destroyed by the vandals:
>>>>>
This article deals with the Saint Thomas Christian churches and denominations of the Nasrani people
The Saint Thomas Christians ( Malayalam: Nasrani) are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the very beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by St. Thomas the Apostle.
Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christian tradition
The Nasranis are an ethnic people and in that sense a single community. However the Nasranis have various denominations as a result of Portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis referring to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in English as Saint Thomas Christians referring to the various and diverse religious denominations between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of Christianity.
These first century churches, according to tradition, were, from north to south: Palayoor near Guruvayoor/Kunnankulam, Cranganore (believed to be the ancient Muziris of Pliny, and the Periplus, on the north bank of Periyar River today), Paravoor on the south side of Periyar, Gokkamangalam or Kokkamangalam, Niranam, Chayal or Nilakkal (the only inland church) and the Lakes or Kaayals, and finally Kollam. The visit of the Apostle Thomas to these places and to Mylapore on the East coast of India can be read in the Ramban Song of Thomas Ramban, set into modern writing c. 1500.
<<<<<
Besides you said about doubts on whether st Thomas the apostle did land in the malabar coast. here please refer to the page Gondophares on the wikipedia. Hope it might help you.
I forgot to sign, Robin klein 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, please redirect the page Nasrani to Syrian malabar Nasrani. Also, may be you could restore the passages that explained the terms of Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians (on the page
Saint Thomas Christians), which I posted above, removing the erroneous statements about marathas and telugus. I liked what you wrote on the kerala talk page about nasrani mapillas etc. you could add them too. Thanks
Robin klein
12:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Veliath,
I saw the text you wrote for the article Kerala and also History of Kerala. It is great work. Please keep coming back and constantly adding more information. Please also check out what I added about the term mappilla according to Hermann Gundert in the introductory passages of the article syrian malabar nasrani. great work once again, thanks Robin klein 17:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I will create a redirect of mapilla to mappila etc. I think the "muslim mappilla" should have a page named "Jonakan mappilla" or just "muslim mappilla" while the page mapplia / mappilla should contain the basic definition of the common term for both the mappilla communities with west asian origins. Just as you wrote with all the citations and also with the definition of hermann gundert as stated in the page syrian malabar nasrani. Also please check out the talk page of kerala. In your absence a lot of debate has been done on the semitic influence in kerala. Robin klein 18:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The debate on vandalism by maabahuka has indeed shifted to kerala talk page. it is going on there. Robin klein 13:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I've put the
Kochi article up for a peer review. Could you please see the article and post your comments
here?
Thanks!--
thunderboltza.k.a.D
eepu_Joseph |
TALK
10:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).
Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.
I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)
A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.
Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.
These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.
As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.
As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.
Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.
With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.
As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.
With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.
The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.
Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.
It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.
Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.
The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.
-- Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. -- Veliath
Hi, Veliath,
I have put up your text on syrian christian origin and history on the syrian malabar nasrani talk page. I think it needs to be there. nice work. thanks Robin klein 01:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi friend, I suggest removing that bandwidth eating png image of yours and potingnthe jpg version.Many of the Internet visitors in Kerala are on dialup connections with 2-4kB average speed. Savemalayalam 17:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello! Can you please add Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/Kerala to your watchlist, so that you don't miss out on the Kerala related discussions? Thanks! -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 10:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
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Hi, Just noticed that nobody had welcomed you. So here you go -
Hello, Veliath, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question.
Hi,
You might be interested in these links:
Jisha C J 18:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Veliath, you are right the page Nasrani should be redirected to the page Syrian malabar nasrani, or to the page Syriac Christianity.
it was originally redirected to Syriac Christianity but several vandals tampered with the pages on syrian malabar nasrani and st thomas christians. In fact there was an entire section on st thomas christians explaining its nasrani context which was systematically destroyed by vandals. Instead they wrote in factually inaccurate statements about the st thomas christians being marathas and telegu which is still there on the page Saint Thomas Christians.
here I post to you the passages destroyed by the vandals:
>>>>>
This article deals with the Saint Thomas Christian churches and denominations of the Nasrani people
The Saint Thomas Christians ( Malayalam: Nasrani) are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the very beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by St. Thomas the Apostle.
Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christian tradition
The Nasranis are an ethnic people and in that sense a single community. However the Nasranis have various denominations as a result of Portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis referring to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in English as Saint Thomas Christians referring to the various and diverse religious denominations between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of Christianity.
These first century churches, according to tradition, were, from north to south: Palayoor near Guruvayoor/Kunnankulam, Cranganore (believed to be the ancient Muziris of Pliny, and the Periplus, on the north bank of Periyar River today), Paravoor on the south side of Periyar, Gokkamangalam or Kokkamangalam, Niranam, Chayal or Nilakkal (the only inland church) and the Lakes or Kaayals, and finally Kollam. The visit of the Apostle Thomas to these places and to Mylapore on the East coast of India can be read in the Ramban Song of Thomas Ramban, set into modern writing c. 1500.
<<<<<
Besides you said about doubts on whether st Thomas the apostle did land in the malabar coast. here please refer to the page Gondophares on the wikipedia. Hope it might help you.
I forgot to sign, Robin klein 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, please redirect the page Nasrani to Syrian malabar Nasrani. Also, may be you could restore the passages that explained the terms of Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians (on the page
Saint Thomas Christians), which I posted above, removing the erroneous statements about marathas and telugus. I liked what you wrote on the kerala talk page about nasrani mapillas etc. you could add them too. Thanks
Robin klein
12:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Veliath,
I saw the text you wrote for the article Kerala and also History of Kerala. It is great work. Please keep coming back and constantly adding more information. Please also check out what I added about the term mappilla according to Hermann Gundert in the introductory passages of the article syrian malabar nasrani. great work once again, thanks Robin klein 17:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I will create a redirect of mapilla to mappila etc. I think the "muslim mappilla" should have a page named "Jonakan mappilla" or just "muslim mappilla" while the page mapplia / mappilla should contain the basic definition of the common term for both the mappilla communities with west asian origins. Just as you wrote with all the citations and also with the definition of hermann gundert as stated in the page syrian malabar nasrani. Also please check out the talk page of kerala. In your absence a lot of debate has been done on the semitic influence in kerala. Robin klein 18:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The debate on vandalism by maabahuka has indeed shifted to kerala talk page. it is going on there. Robin klein 13:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I've put the
Kochi article up for a peer review. Could you please see the article and post your comments
here?
Thanks!--
thunderboltza.k.a.D
eepu_Joseph |
TALK
10:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).
Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.
I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)
A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.
Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.
These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.
As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.
As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.
Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.
With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.
As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.
With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.
The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.
Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.
It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.
Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.
The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.
-- Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. -- Veliath
Hi, Veliath,
I have put up your text on syrian christian origin and history on the syrian malabar nasrani talk page. I think it needs to be there. nice work. thanks Robin klein 01:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi friend, I suggest removing that bandwidth eating png image of yours and potingnthe jpg version.Many of the Internet visitors in Kerala are on dialup connections with 2-4kB average speed. Savemalayalam 17:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello! Can you please add Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/Kerala to your watchlist, so that you don't miss out on the Kerala related discussions? Thanks! -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 10:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello there. This is an automated message to tell you about the gradual phasing out of the preference entitled "Mark all edits minor by default", which you currently have (or very recently had) enabled.
On 13 March 2011, this preference was hidden from the user preferences screen as part of efforts to prevent its accidental misuse (
consensus discussion). This had the effect of locking users in to their existing preference, which, in your case, was true
. To complete the process, your preference will automatically be changed to false
in the next few days. This does not require any intervention on your part and you will still be able to manually mark your edits as being 'minor'. The only thing that's changed is that you will no longer have them marked as minor by default.
For established users such as yourself there is a workaround available involving custom JavaScript. If you are familiar with the contents of WP:MINOR, and believe that it is still beneficial to the encyclopedia to have all your edits marked as such by default, then this discussion will give you the details you need to continue with this functionality indefinitely. If you have any problems, feel free to drop me a note.
Thank you for your understanding and happy editing :) Editing on behalf of User:Jarry1250, LivingBot ( talk) 21:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
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A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Hangouts logo.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Jon Kolbert ( talk) 05:08, 9 March 2018 (UTC)