On a sabbatical, so will have to look into this deeper when I get back. Meanwhile just looking at Google Books I came up with this. Typing up "Skinner and Key 1812 Minden" in Google Books, I seem to get several references to the ship Minden.
There are about a dozen or so books that seem to follow this theme. Looking at other websites I come up with these, that seem to say something to the effect "...Francis Scott Key and John S. Skinner, an American prisoner-exchange agent, set sail from Baltimore aboard the ship HMS Minden flying a flag of truce on a mission approved by U.S. President James Madison."
Also there is a letter at the Library of Congress from Curtis Noyes to Abraham Lincoln dated January 3, 1863 that seems to confirm this also: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/P?mal:1:./temp/~ammem_oVAx::@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cowellbib,calbkbib,consrvbib,bdsbib,dag,fsaall,gmd,pan,vv,presp,varstg,suffrg,nawbib,horyd,wtc,toddbib,mgw,ncr,ngp,musdibib,hlaw,papr,lhbumbib,rbpebib,lbcoll,alad,hh,aaodyssey,magbell,bbc,dcm,raelbib,runyon,dukesm,lomaxbib,mtj,gottlieb,aep,qlt,coolbib,fpnas,aasm,denn,relpet,amss,aaeo,mff,afc911bib,mjm,mnwp,rbcmillerbib,molden,ww2map,mfdipbib,afcnyebib,klpmap,hawp,omhbib,rbaapcbib,mal,ncpsbib,ncpm,lhbprbib,ftvbib,afcreed,aipn,cwband,flwpabib,wpapos,cmns,psbib,pin,coplandbib,cola,tccc,curt,mharendt,lhbcbbib,eaa,haybib,mesnbib,fine,cwnyhs,svybib,mmorse,afcwwgbib,mymhiwebib,uncall,afcwip,mtaft,manz,llstbib,fawbib,berl,fmuever,cdn,upboverbib,mussm,cic,afcpearl,awh,awhbib,sgp,wright,lhbtnbib,afcesnbib,hurstonbib,mreynoldsbib,spaldingbib,sgproto,scsmbib,afccalbib Apparently a piece of a timber from the Minden was sent to the President, because of the ship's importance (see also page 4 of letter for date of timber shipment). The letter reads
“ |
|
” |
Perhaps I am not reading correctly your question. Could you expand further, based then after seeing these references as a "flag of truce" of the vessel Minden.-- Doug Coldwell talk 20:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
“ | A series of 7 letters written by Commander Herbert Clifford as Lieutenant on HMS Minden to his friend Robert Duke, May - September 1814. Written from Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Madras with detailed comments on the places visited. | ” |
And the letter to Abraham Lincoln above when he was sent a cane? It says Key was ...compelled to witness the attempted destruction of that City.-- Doug Coldwell talk 00:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Been there; done that.
“ | On Tuesday, September 6 at soon after one in the afternoon an American sloop sailed down the river and approached the Royal Oak, flying a flag of truce. Two men in civilian dress came aboard to speak to Admiral Malcolm. They were John Skinner, the United States agent for the exchange of prisoners of war, and Francis Scott Key, the young lawyer. They wished, they said, to negotiate for the release of Dr William Beanes. ... On receiving the request of Skinner and Key to release the doctor, Malcolm explained that he was not the commander in chief of the British expeditionary fleet, for that was Cochrane, now anchored off Tangier Island in the Chesapeake, but he sent Skinner's request on ahead by fast dispatch boat, and sent the American sloop along behind, escorted by HM frigate Hebrus, ... | ” |
— Kate Caffery, The Lion & The Union - The Anglo-American War 1812-1815, André Deutsch Limited, 1978 |
“ | One person who had no doubts that Baltimore was an American triumph was Francis Scott Key, the Georgetown lawyer, who had witnessed the attack from a sloop bearing a flag of truce. ... | ” |
— Capt. A. J. "James" Pack. OBE, RN, The man who burned the White House, Naval Institute Press, 1987 |
“ | Key, Skinner, and Beanes were in their Norfolk packet anchored well back near where the land forces disembarked, but if they stood on deck they could distinctly see the Stars and Stripes flying over Ft. McHenry. ... | ” |
— Anthony S. Pitch, The Burning of Washington - The British Invasion of 1814, Naval Institute Press, 1998 |
“ | Because of the political implications of Beanes's [sic] capture, Madison ordered a sloop of truce be placed at Key's disposal. ... | ” |
— Louis Arthur Norton, Joshua Barney - Hero of the Revolution and 1812, Naval Institute Press, 2000 |
“ | Key, Skinner, and Beanes had been transferred to the truce vessel in which Key and Skinner had sailed to obtain Dr. Beanes' release. They would be forced to watch the bombardment, their truce vessel under the guns of British warships off Old Roads Bay. ... | ” |
— Christopher T. George, Terror on the Chesapeake - The War of 1812 on the Bay, White Mane Books, 2000 |
These all say that the vessel was a sloop. Not a Sloop-of-War, not a Thrid Rate Ship of the Line, a lowly sloop. A response in the affirmative from the Royal Naval Museum will prove, at the very least, that it wasn't the HMS Minden.
This is an important and colorful episode in the history of the United States. Myths are to be expected. Another popular myth on the subject is that Key drafted the "Defence of Fort McHenry" on the back of an envelop. In 1814, paper was costly, and was not to be wasted on such trifling things as envelopes. Key wrote the "Defence of Fort McHenry" on the back of a letter, which at some point was probably sealed closed, which was customary at the time. TCav ( talk) 20:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
“ | Copy of your message to TCav: Wikipedia e-mail 7:16 AM 3KB (message) |
” |
I'm going to presume that your last remarks were not feeble attempts at snide remarks, and simply fulfill your request by including the body of the message I sent to the Royal Naval Museum:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TCav
[1]
> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:57 PM
> To: 'Library'
> Subject: RE: HMS Minden and the Battle of Baltimore
>
> Sirs,
>
> Thank you for your past efforts with my inquiries. I have obtained a
> copy of The Lion & The Union by Kate Caffrey and have found it most useful.
>
> In my continuing effort to definitively resolve the issue of whether
> or not Francis Scott Key was aboard the HMS Minden when he wrote what
> was to become our national anthem, I came upon another piece of
> information that I hope you can help me with. The UK's Official
> Archives [
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ] lead me to information
> that I was able to use to search your own archives, where I found:
>
>
http://www.s15226363.onlinehome-
> server.info/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqServer=www.royalnavalmuseum.com&dsqIn
> i=Ds
> erve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo
> =='1
> 999.21/1')
>
> The description of this archive is as follows:
>
> " A series of 7 letters written by Commander Herbert Clifford as
> Lieutenant on HMS Minden to his friend Robert Duke, May - September 1814.
> Written from Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Madras with detailed comments
> on the places visited."
>
> This would place the HMS Minden in the East Indies during the British
> invasion of Washington and the Battle of Baltimore, and so if Francis
> Scott Key were aboard, he probably would not have been able to see
> "the rocket's red glare" over Ft. McHenry.
>
> Can you please confirm that the letters were written during the period
> May
> - September 1814 and described his travels aboard HMS Minden through
> the East Indies?
>
> Thank you for your consideration.
> TCav
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Library
[2]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:53 AM
> > To: TCav
> > Subject: HMS Minden and the Battle of Baltimore
> >
> > Our ref: 08/09/027
> >
> > Thank you for your recent enquiry.
> >
> > I'm afraid I can't supply you details of where HMS Minden was
> > deployed during the the Battle of Baltimore, because we don't have
> > access to that sort of detail in the documents in our collections;
> > to determine this, you would need to consult the ship's logbook or
> > other Admiralty papers, which would be held by the National Archives
> > [
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
> > <
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk>
> > ].
> >
> > That said, I can't find any reference to HMS Minden being present at
> > the battle in any of the volumes we have that cover the subject. You
> > mention a role being played in the writing of the song that became
> > known as "The Star-Spangled Banner"; I shall paraphrase below the
> > order of events one such text describes:
> >
> > * Tuesday 6th September, soon after 1pm, an unnamed American sloop
> > sailed down the river and approached HMS Royal Oak flying a flag of
> > truce. Aboard were John Skinner and Francis Scott Key, who had come
> > to see Admiral Malcolm to negotiate for the release of Dr W Beanes.
> >
> > * After hearing their request, Malcolm explained that he was not C-in-
> > C of the British fleet, Cochrane was, and he forwarded their request
> > in writing to Cochrane by fast dispatch boat, sending the American
> > sloop along behind, accompanied by HM frigate Hebrus.
> >
> > * Wednesday 7th September, around noon, HMS Tonnant came into view as
> > she moved up the Chesapeake. Hebrus communicated with her, and the
> > two Americans went aboard, where Cochrane and others invited them to dinner.
> > Cochrane agreed to the release of Beanes, but wanted to wait for a
> > more advantageous moment, so he suggested that the two Americans
> > transfer to HM frigate Surprise as the whole fleet moved to meet
> > Gordon's detachment.
> >
> > * Thursday September 8th, with HMS Surprise towing the American sloop,
> > they entered the Potomac, covering twenty miles by dawn on the
> > Friday, at which point they observed Gordon's ships, safely beyond
> > the reach of the American guns. The fleet now turned and sailed back
> > down the Chesapeake and northwards from there, anchoring at the
> > mouth of the Patuxent.
> >
> > * On Sunday morning Cochrane started his attack, having transferred
> > Skinner, Key and Beanes to their own vessel under strict orders to
> > stay with the British ships. Cochrane's fleet landed British
> > soldiers at North Point, then sailed up the Patapsco to start
> > bombarding the fort.
> >
> > That much is common knowledge; what is most pertinent to your
> > enquiry is that the account next mentions explicitly that Key was
> > stood on the deck of the American sloop when he spied the Baltimore
> > flag in the early hours of the Tuesday, and immediately began
> > writing the song on the back of a letter he had to hand.
> >
> > This account is found in the following book:
> >
> > CAFFREY, Kate - The Lion & The Union; the Anglo-American War 1812-15
> > London: Andre Deutsche, 1978:
ISBN
0233969292
> >
> > Due to our remit of covering the entire body of the Royal Navy's
> > history, we do not have any documents that report closely on the
> > Battle Of Baltimore, nor any book that goes into more detail on it
> > than Caffrey's volume; it may be that there are more detailed
> > accounts (which might list the ships of the British fleet) in other
> > books, but if so they are not among our collections. That said,
> > Caffrey's account is pretty detailed, and mentions the names of all
> > the British vessels with which Key and Skinner came into direct
> > contact on their truce mission, and none of them is HMS Minden.
> > Unless the sources that place HMS Minden on the scene have better
> > references, I think it safe to assume you can debunk their claims.
> > But, as mentioned above, the ultimate refutal would be to obtain
> > evidence of HMS Minden's posting at the time of the Battle, and I'm
> > afraid we don't have the resources to hand that would allow us to do so.
> >
> > I hope this information is of some use to you, and I'm sorry we
> > couldn't be of more direct assistance. I wish you luck with your
> > ongoing research.
> >
> > Royal Naval Museum
> > Registered Charity 266563
> > T: 02392727563
> > www.royalnavalmuseum.org <file://www.royalnavalmuseum.org> The
> > Museum’s Mission is “To make accessible to all the story of the
> > Royal Navy and its people from earliest times to the present”
> >
> > Our special exhibition Sea Your History - the C20th Royal Navy is
> > now open and runs throughout 2008/09. See also the related website
> > at www.seayourhistory.org.uk <file://www.seayourhistory.org.uk>
> >
> > Confidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for
> > the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to
> > you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you
> > copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error.
> >
> > Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in
> > the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure
> > communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe
> > this lack of security when e- mailing us.
> >
> > Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and
> > attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with
> > good computing practice the recipient should take steps to confirm
> > that they are actually virus free
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: TCav
[3]
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:43 PM
> > > To: 'library@royalnavalmuseum.org'
> > > Subject: HMS Minden
> > >
> > > Sirs,
> > >
> > > There is considerable controversy concerning the role HMS Minden
> > > might have played in the writing of the American National Anthem.
> > > Many people seem to believe that the HMS Minden was a
> > > flag-of-truce vessel in Baltimore harbor, that our Col. John S.
> > > Skinner used on his excursions to negotiate prisoner exchanges in
> > > the Chesapeake Campaign during our War of 1812. I think it is
> > > highly unlikely that such a prominent Royal Navy Ship would have
> > > been dedicated to such a mundane task. In fact, my reference
> > > material (which is limited, to say the
> > > least) doesn't even place HMS Minden at the Battle of Baltimore.
> > >
> > > Do you have any information as to the position the HMS Minden
> > > might have had during our War of 1812?
> > >
> > > Thank you for your consideration,
> > > TCav
The only changes I've made to the original text are to remove my name, e-mail address and phone number. If this isn't sufficient for your purposes, please let me know. TCav ( talk) 22:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
> > * On Sunday morning Cochrane started his attack, having transferred
> > Skinner, Key and Beanes to their own vessel under strict orders to
> > stay with the British ships. Cochrane's fleet landed British
> > soldiers at North Point, then sailed up the Patapsco to start
> > bombarding the fort.
> >
AND the Abraham Lincoln letter. I believe you still have much research to do to prove your theory. Attached is the answer I got back from the Library of Congress:
Library Question - Answer [Question #5121549]Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:31 PM
“ | Hello Doug Coldwell
|
” |
Abraham Lincoln cane Here is article on
William Curtis Noyes. Based on what the article says of this lawyer, I cann't see how he would have got it wrong of ...The frigate "Minden" of the British Navy was engaged in the Bombardment of Baltimore during the last war with England. I put a lot more weight on this than a book written in 1976. Also the importance of making a cane from this particular ship for Abraham Lincoln says much - to me that Keys wrote the National Anthem on the Minden. I put all my chips on the Lincoln letter and none on CAFFREY, Kate - The Lion & The Union; the Anglo-American War 1812-15, London: Andre Deutsche, 1978:
ISBN
0233969292 .
Type "Noyes Lincoln 1863" in search box
American Memory. Lincoln letter is the first item.
My guess is that the cane itself is under the cover of the last image telling about its shipment to Abraham Lincoln. Cane was built from a wood timber of the Minden.
Let me know when you find better proof.--
Doug Coldwell
talk
23:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The answer to your question
The answer to your question
The answer to your question
So bottomline is what I recommended at the top lines:
Typing up "Skinner and Key 1812 Minden" in Google Books (without the quote marks).
I think I answered all your points. Any other questions?--
Doug Coldwell
talk
09:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know about all that, however my understanding on how Wikipedia works is that you must have a Secondary source for reference. All the Google Books at the top I have mentioned looks like to me as Secondary sources. Your theory to me looks like
Original Research, even IF you could prove it from some Primary Source - that so far I have not seen. Truths and myths I don't think are an issue for a reference, IF I understand the idea behind what providing a reference is. Now I see why you feel so strongly about the issue IF Key was on the Minden when he wrote the
Star Spangled Banner - to protect your website. Apparently you need for him not to be on the Minden. I can provide to you a dozen Secondary sources that say he was on the Minden, plus the Lincoln letter. Can you provide to me even one Secondary source from a reliable source (i.e. printed published book with an ISBN) that definitely says Key was not on the Minden OR that the Minden was at a different location in the month of September of 1814? Remember, you can not speculate as to what something might imply. My understanding of references is that one can not use a Primary source as a reference, unless it is backed up with a Secondary source.
While you theorize that it is all a myth and not the truth, it doesn't make any difference even IF you could prove it. You could not use it as a reference, as you know since you have been at this for awhile. Now I see why you don't want to use services like the
Internet Public Library since what they would come up with is at least 2 dozen Secondary sources that say Key was on the Minden when he wrote the
Ode. Apparently that would really wipe out your website. Ask them to provide references for your theory. When you get that list, then why don't you attach it in the Talk page of
William Beanes. Meanwhile while you are trying to get that list together, here is what I would call an
excellent Secondary reference. I'll keep a Watch on the article, so will notice when you come up with such a list for your theory. After a year I'll not watch the article anymore, starting 1/1/2011. I want to be sure I am fair and give you plenty of time to come up with such a list like what I am able to provide you with at the top here. BTW, the above references sure don't look like 'cut and past' to me. They all appear to be different wording, that say basically the same thing - that Key was aboard the Minden when he wrote his poem. So until I see this list, I'll no longer respond to this nonsense. I'm off to crack the Code........--
Doug Coldwell
talk
20:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
On a sabbatical, so will have to look into this deeper when I get back. Meanwhile just looking at Google Books I came up with this. Typing up "Skinner and Key 1812 Minden" in Google Books, I seem to get several references to the ship Minden.
There are about a dozen or so books that seem to follow this theme. Looking at other websites I come up with these, that seem to say something to the effect "...Francis Scott Key and John S. Skinner, an American prisoner-exchange agent, set sail from Baltimore aboard the ship HMS Minden flying a flag of truce on a mission approved by U.S. President James Madison."
Also there is a letter at the Library of Congress from Curtis Noyes to Abraham Lincoln dated January 3, 1863 that seems to confirm this also: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/P?mal:1:./temp/~ammem_oVAx::@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cowellbib,calbkbib,consrvbib,bdsbib,dag,fsaall,gmd,pan,vv,presp,varstg,suffrg,nawbib,horyd,wtc,toddbib,mgw,ncr,ngp,musdibib,hlaw,papr,lhbumbib,rbpebib,lbcoll,alad,hh,aaodyssey,magbell,bbc,dcm,raelbib,runyon,dukesm,lomaxbib,mtj,gottlieb,aep,qlt,coolbib,fpnas,aasm,denn,relpet,amss,aaeo,mff,afc911bib,mjm,mnwp,rbcmillerbib,molden,ww2map,mfdipbib,afcnyebib,klpmap,hawp,omhbib,rbaapcbib,mal,ncpsbib,ncpm,lhbprbib,ftvbib,afcreed,aipn,cwband,flwpabib,wpapos,cmns,psbib,pin,coplandbib,cola,tccc,curt,mharendt,lhbcbbib,eaa,haybib,mesnbib,fine,cwnyhs,svybib,mmorse,afcwwgbib,mymhiwebib,uncall,afcwip,mtaft,manz,llstbib,fawbib,berl,fmuever,cdn,upboverbib,mussm,cic,afcpearl,awh,awhbib,sgp,wright,lhbtnbib,afcesnbib,hurstonbib,mreynoldsbib,spaldingbib,sgproto,scsmbib,afccalbib Apparently a piece of a timber from the Minden was sent to the President, because of the ship's importance (see also page 4 of letter for date of timber shipment). The letter reads
“ |
|
” |
Perhaps I am not reading correctly your question. Could you expand further, based then after seeing these references as a "flag of truce" of the vessel Minden.-- Doug Coldwell talk 20:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
“ | A series of 7 letters written by Commander Herbert Clifford as Lieutenant on HMS Minden to his friend Robert Duke, May - September 1814. Written from Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Madras with detailed comments on the places visited. | ” |
And the letter to Abraham Lincoln above when he was sent a cane? It says Key was ...compelled to witness the attempted destruction of that City.-- Doug Coldwell talk 00:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Been there; done that.
“ | On Tuesday, September 6 at soon after one in the afternoon an American sloop sailed down the river and approached the Royal Oak, flying a flag of truce. Two men in civilian dress came aboard to speak to Admiral Malcolm. They were John Skinner, the United States agent for the exchange of prisoners of war, and Francis Scott Key, the young lawyer. They wished, they said, to negotiate for the release of Dr William Beanes. ... On receiving the request of Skinner and Key to release the doctor, Malcolm explained that he was not the commander in chief of the British expeditionary fleet, for that was Cochrane, now anchored off Tangier Island in the Chesapeake, but he sent Skinner's request on ahead by fast dispatch boat, and sent the American sloop along behind, escorted by HM frigate Hebrus, ... | ” |
— Kate Caffery, The Lion & The Union - The Anglo-American War 1812-1815, André Deutsch Limited, 1978 |
“ | One person who had no doubts that Baltimore was an American triumph was Francis Scott Key, the Georgetown lawyer, who had witnessed the attack from a sloop bearing a flag of truce. ... | ” |
— Capt. A. J. "James" Pack. OBE, RN, The man who burned the White House, Naval Institute Press, 1987 |
“ | Key, Skinner, and Beanes were in their Norfolk packet anchored well back near where the land forces disembarked, but if they stood on deck they could distinctly see the Stars and Stripes flying over Ft. McHenry. ... | ” |
— Anthony S. Pitch, The Burning of Washington - The British Invasion of 1814, Naval Institute Press, 1998 |
“ | Because of the political implications of Beanes's [sic] capture, Madison ordered a sloop of truce be placed at Key's disposal. ... | ” |
— Louis Arthur Norton, Joshua Barney - Hero of the Revolution and 1812, Naval Institute Press, 2000 |
“ | Key, Skinner, and Beanes had been transferred to the truce vessel in which Key and Skinner had sailed to obtain Dr. Beanes' release. They would be forced to watch the bombardment, their truce vessel under the guns of British warships off Old Roads Bay. ... | ” |
— Christopher T. George, Terror on the Chesapeake - The War of 1812 on the Bay, White Mane Books, 2000 |
These all say that the vessel was a sloop. Not a Sloop-of-War, not a Thrid Rate Ship of the Line, a lowly sloop. A response in the affirmative from the Royal Naval Museum will prove, at the very least, that it wasn't the HMS Minden.
This is an important and colorful episode in the history of the United States. Myths are to be expected. Another popular myth on the subject is that Key drafted the "Defence of Fort McHenry" on the back of an envelop. In 1814, paper was costly, and was not to be wasted on such trifling things as envelopes. Key wrote the "Defence of Fort McHenry" on the back of a letter, which at some point was probably sealed closed, which was customary at the time. TCav ( talk) 20:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
“ | Copy of your message to TCav: Wikipedia e-mail 7:16 AM 3KB (message) |
” |
I'm going to presume that your last remarks were not feeble attempts at snide remarks, and simply fulfill your request by including the body of the message I sent to the Royal Naval Museum:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TCav
[1]
> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:57 PM
> To: 'Library'
> Subject: RE: HMS Minden and the Battle of Baltimore
>
> Sirs,
>
> Thank you for your past efforts with my inquiries. I have obtained a
> copy of The Lion & The Union by Kate Caffrey and have found it most useful.
>
> In my continuing effort to definitively resolve the issue of whether
> or not Francis Scott Key was aboard the HMS Minden when he wrote what
> was to become our national anthem, I came upon another piece of
> information that I hope you can help me with. The UK's Official
> Archives [
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ] lead me to information
> that I was able to use to search your own archives, where I found:
>
>
http://www.s15226363.onlinehome-
> server.info/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqServer=www.royalnavalmuseum.com&dsqIn
> i=Ds
> erve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo
> =='1
> 999.21/1')
>
> The description of this archive is as follows:
>
> " A series of 7 letters written by Commander Herbert Clifford as
> Lieutenant on HMS Minden to his friend Robert Duke, May - September 1814.
> Written from Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Madras with detailed comments
> on the places visited."
>
> This would place the HMS Minden in the East Indies during the British
> invasion of Washington and the Battle of Baltimore, and so if Francis
> Scott Key were aboard, he probably would not have been able to see
> "the rocket's red glare" over Ft. McHenry.
>
> Can you please confirm that the letters were written during the period
> May
> - September 1814 and described his travels aboard HMS Minden through
> the East Indies?
>
> Thank you for your consideration.
> TCav
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Library
[2]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:53 AM
> > To: TCav
> > Subject: HMS Minden and the Battle of Baltimore
> >
> > Our ref: 08/09/027
> >
> > Thank you for your recent enquiry.
> >
> > I'm afraid I can't supply you details of where HMS Minden was
> > deployed during the the Battle of Baltimore, because we don't have
> > access to that sort of detail in the documents in our collections;
> > to determine this, you would need to consult the ship's logbook or
> > other Admiralty papers, which would be held by the National Archives
> > [
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
> > <
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk>
> > ].
> >
> > That said, I can't find any reference to HMS Minden being present at
> > the battle in any of the volumes we have that cover the subject. You
> > mention a role being played in the writing of the song that became
> > known as "The Star-Spangled Banner"; I shall paraphrase below the
> > order of events one such text describes:
> >
> > * Tuesday 6th September, soon after 1pm, an unnamed American sloop
> > sailed down the river and approached HMS Royal Oak flying a flag of
> > truce. Aboard were John Skinner and Francis Scott Key, who had come
> > to see Admiral Malcolm to negotiate for the release of Dr W Beanes.
> >
> > * After hearing their request, Malcolm explained that he was not C-in-
> > C of the British fleet, Cochrane was, and he forwarded their request
> > in writing to Cochrane by fast dispatch boat, sending the American
> > sloop along behind, accompanied by HM frigate Hebrus.
> >
> > * Wednesday 7th September, around noon, HMS Tonnant came into view as
> > she moved up the Chesapeake. Hebrus communicated with her, and the
> > two Americans went aboard, where Cochrane and others invited them to dinner.
> > Cochrane agreed to the release of Beanes, but wanted to wait for a
> > more advantageous moment, so he suggested that the two Americans
> > transfer to HM frigate Surprise as the whole fleet moved to meet
> > Gordon's detachment.
> >
> > * Thursday September 8th, with HMS Surprise towing the American sloop,
> > they entered the Potomac, covering twenty miles by dawn on the
> > Friday, at which point they observed Gordon's ships, safely beyond
> > the reach of the American guns. The fleet now turned and sailed back
> > down the Chesapeake and northwards from there, anchoring at the
> > mouth of the Patuxent.
> >
> > * On Sunday morning Cochrane started his attack, having transferred
> > Skinner, Key and Beanes to their own vessel under strict orders to
> > stay with the British ships. Cochrane's fleet landed British
> > soldiers at North Point, then sailed up the Patapsco to start
> > bombarding the fort.
> >
> > That much is common knowledge; what is most pertinent to your
> > enquiry is that the account next mentions explicitly that Key was
> > stood on the deck of the American sloop when he spied the Baltimore
> > flag in the early hours of the Tuesday, and immediately began
> > writing the song on the back of a letter he had to hand.
> >
> > This account is found in the following book:
> >
> > CAFFREY, Kate - The Lion & The Union; the Anglo-American War 1812-15
> > London: Andre Deutsche, 1978:
ISBN
0233969292
> >
> > Due to our remit of covering the entire body of the Royal Navy's
> > history, we do not have any documents that report closely on the
> > Battle Of Baltimore, nor any book that goes into more detail on it
> > than Caffrey's volume; it may be that there are more detailed
> > accounts (which might list the ships of the British fleet) in other
> > books, but if so they are not among our collections. That said,
> > Caffrey's account is pretty detailed, and mentions the names of all
> > the British vessels with which Key and Skinner came into direct
> > contact on their truce mission, and none of them is HMS Minden.
> > Unless the sources that place HMS Minden on the scene have better
> > references, I think it safe to assume you can debunk their claims.
> > But, as mentioned above, the ultimate refutal would be to obtain
> > evidence of HMS Minden's posting at the time of the Battle, and I'm
> > afraid we don't have the resources to hand that would allow us to do so.
> >
> > I hope this information is of some use to you, and I'm sorry we
> > couldn't be of more direct assistance. I wish you luck with your
> > ongoing research.
> >
> > Royal Naval Museum
> > Registered Charity 266563
> > T: 02392727563
> > www.royalnavalmuseum.org <file://www.royalnavalmuseum.org> The
> > Museum’s Mission is “To make accessible to all the story of the
> > Royal Navy and its people from earliest times to the present”
> >
> > Our special exhibition Sea Your History - the C20th Royal Navy is
> > now open and runs throughout 2008/09. See also the related website
> > at www.seayourhistory.org.uk <file://www.seayourhistory.org.uk>
> >
> > Confidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for
> > the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to
> > you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you
> > copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error.
> >
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> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: TCav
[3]
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:43 PM
> > > To: 'library@royalnavalmuseum.org'
> > > Subject: HMS Minden
> > >
> > > Sirs,
> > >
> > > There is considerable controversy concerning the role HMS Minden
> > > might have played in the writing of the American National Anthem.
> > > Many people seem to believe that the HMS Minden was a
> > > flag-of-truce vessel in Baltimore harbor, that our Col. John S.
> > > Skinner used on his excursions to negotiate prisoner exchanges in
> > > the Chesapeake Campaign during our War of 1812. I think it is
> > > highly unlikely that such a prominent Royal Navy Ship would have
> > > been dedicated to such a mundane task. In fact, my reference
> > > material (which is limited, to say the
> > > least) doesn't even place HMS Minden at the Battle of Baltimore.
> > >
> > > Do you have any information as to the position the HMS Minden
> > > might have had during our War of 1812?
> > >
> > > Thank you for your consideration,
> > > TCav
The only changes I've made to the original text are to remove my name, e-mail address and phone number. If this isn't sufficient for your purposes, please let me know. TCav ( talk) 22:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
> > * On Sunday morning Cochrane started his attack, having transferred
> > Skinner, Key and Beanes to their own vessel under strict orders to
> > stay with the British ships. Cochrane's fleet landed British
> > soldiers at North Point, then sailed up the Patapsco to start
> > bombarding the fort.
> >
AND the Abraham Lincoln letter. I believe you still have much research to do to prove your theory. Attached is the answer I got back from the Library of Congress:
Library Question - Answer [Question #5121549]Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:31 PM
“ | Hello Doug Coldwell
|
” |
Abraham Lincoln cane Here is article on
William Curtis Noyes. Based on what the article says of this lawyer, I cann't see how he would have got it wrong of ...The frigate "Minden" of the British Navy was engaged in the Bombardment of Baltimore during the last war with England. I put a lot more weight on this than a book written in 1976. Also the importance of making a cane from this particular ship for Abraham Lincoln says much - to me that Keys wrote the National Anthem on the Minden. I put all my chips on the Lincoln letter and none on CAFFREY, Kate - The Lion & The Union; the Anglo-American War 1812-15, London: Andre Deutsche, 1978:
ISBN
0233969292 .
Type "Noyes Lincoln 1863" in search box
American Memory. Lincoln letter is the first item.
My guess is that the cane itself is under the cover of the last image telling about its shipment to Abraham Lincoln. Cane was built from a wood timber of the Minden.
Let me know when you find better proof.--
Doug Coldwell
talk
23:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The answer to your question
The answer to your question
The answer to your question
So bottomline is what I recommended at the top lines:
Typing up "Skinner and Key 1812 Minden" in Google Books (without the quote marks).
I think I answered all your points. Any other questions?--
Doug Coldwell
talk
09:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know about all that, however my understanding on how Wikipedia works is that you must have a Secondary source for reference. All the Google Books at the top I have mentioned looks like to me as Secondary sources. Your theory to me looks like
Original Research, even IF you could prove it from some Primary Source - that so far I have not seen. Truths and myths I don't think are an issue for a reference, IF I understand the idea behind what providing a reference is. Now I see why you feel so strongly about the issue IF Key was on the Minden when he wrote the
Star Spangled Banner - to protect your website. Apparently you need for him not to be on the Minden. I can provide to you a dozen Secondary sources that say he was on the Minden, plus the Lincoln letter. Can you provide to me even one Secondary source from a reliable source (i.e. printed published book with an ISBN) that definitely says Key was not on the Minden OR that the Minden was at a different location in the month of September of 1814? Remember, you can not speculate as to what something might imply. My understanding of references is that one can not use a Primary source as a reference, unless it is backed up with a Secondary source.
While you theorize that it is all a myth and not the truth, it doesn't make any difference even IF you could prove it. You could not use it as a reference, as you know since you have been at this for awhile. Now I see why you don't want to use services like the
Internet Public Library since what they would come up with is at least 2 dozen Secondary sources that say Key was on the Minden when he wrote the
Ode. Apparently that would really wipe out your website. Ask them to provide references for your theory. When you get that list, then why don't you attach it in the Talk page of
William Beanes. Meanwhile while you are trying to get that list together, here is what I would call an
excellent Secondary reference. I'll keep a Watch on the article, so will notice when you come up with such a list for your theory. After a year I'll not watch the article anymore, starting 1/1/2011. I want to be sure I am fair and give you plenty of time to come up with such a list like what I am able to provide you with at the top here. BTW, the above references sure don't look like 'cut and past' to me. They all appear to be different wording, that say basically the same thing - that Key was aboard the Minden when he wrote his poem. So until I see this list, I'll no longer respond to this nonsense. I'm off to crack the Code........--
Doug Coldwell
talk
20:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)