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I did read your complaint at User talk:Jimbo Wales, but it's just hard to respond to. You take a poke at twenty different issues at once, not explaining any of them well enough to be understood, though the sources you provide for a few are useful. You mix it in with sarcasm or metaphor that doesn't work well on the Internet about lizard people and Vogon fleets, which drives away the average reader. Now, few things would please me more than to watch a video feed of Harper, Cameron, etc. experiencing female genital mutilation at the hands of Boko Haram, but what do you want people on Wikipedia to do, precisely? I'm sure you have ideas but they really do get lost in there somewhere.
I would suggest...
I knwo propaganda techniques when I see them, I've been on this planet a long time (and wish I could remember where the keys to my spaceship are - joke - it's time to get out of this crazy self-immolating sphere), and the amount of edits coming all at once suggests robotic tools to post/edit with; as also noted re a certain other editor who reverted things so rapidly he must have an external bot to do it with; but I suspect a team, which is why I mentioned CHECKUSER; it's after that that he's backed off and still protesting innocence with finger-in-cheek paints me as the bad guy who's "interfering" with him .... yadayadayada could go on for pages about that; now I'm just gonna work on the article and ignore anything he says, just as he did with anything I brought forward other than when taking it to discussion boards to try and get backup, or pretend that they said things approving of his position when they did not, not even close...
There's an article in the current Epoch Times about cyberwar actions by China; I paraphrase it somewhere not sure which place, and in today's Guardian there was an item about a new "pscyhological warfare" unit of the British military whose job it is to infiltrate Twitter, FB and other social media; without mentioning Wikipedia but it's a given that any social media is the field of combat.
The 'shoot the messenger so as to not admit to the issue/message' is so rife in Wikipedia, along with the TLRD/WOT bullshit where people say they won't read what you have to say because it's too long/they don't have time and do so in an uncivil and NPA manner.....tehy're entrenched, to the point that WOT is a guideline; once I pointed out that the invocation of TLDR on talkpages was not what it was for; and while WP:Wikilawyering demonstrably exists, to say someone is wikilawyering has become grounds for an ANI - ???? So, you can't criticize someone's editing activity without being threatened with a block as if that were NPA on the same par as 'asshole' or "you're stupid". You can't get into evidence of dishonesty; that's against the "new rules" that have arisen in the culture of "the community" in recent years ... reminds me or Parliament where you can't call someone a liar even when they obviously are. Absurdity combined with imperious condemnations if you speak out.
That's only some of what's out there; China has warred on Tibet and other articles for years, Russia and Ukraine articles/editors are at each other's throats; in Thailand it's dangerous, ant not just re jailtime, to engage in any political writing of any kind; and it's not the only country that's like that either...I left there because of the deteriorating situation and increasingly dangerous political milieu and a mounting sense of anti-farang attitudes/conduct and more; and keep my nose out of Cambodian politics (even though I do a news show here) for good reason.
Between corporate, country, partisan, and defence/m-i and "security state" moles, it's a multi-front problem and the integrityy o the encylopedia "anyone can edit" is inheretnly flawed, leaving it wide open to manipualtio by anyone with the skills and determination/agenda funding to spend all day, every day, warring to control and maniuplted or, as The Photographer noted, to block people who stand up to it.
The pipeline questions I'll come back to later and theyh answers you'll hear involve differnt quetions than you've asked. lots is out there, but because MSM wont' cover it and necessary facts are not found in their reportage, and th e oil sector have a powerful lobby here it's going to have to be explained later... I'm tired. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be uppercase? Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 20:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed you have a keen interest in numerous aspects of BC history, and that you have a specific interest in the Phil Gaglardi article, to which you've contributed quite a few times.
Mr. Gaglardi's contributions to the development of the highways were a bit before the awakening of my political awareness. I haven't known who to ask about this, and possibly you know:
Did Phil Gaglardi have some responsibility for the development (or marked improvement) of the southern-route Highway 3 in the Castlegar area? and also Highway 3A from Castlegar to Nelson? Thanks in advance for any reply. Joel Russ ( talk) 01:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I am offering to give you pages of the Morton book. You can use a throwaway e-mail under whatever name you choose (an e-mail address that you don't use with anyone else or for any other purpose, and one which you can abandon after using it). I will give you the table of contents, chronology, sources other than newspapers, and index. Then you can decide what pages you want. I can send you maybe one to two chapters of the book of your choosing. WhisperToMe ( talk) 18:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
WhisperToMe ( talk) 07:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
there is another I had ready to copy-paste but I had a blue screen of death and will have to find it again - and fix it. But this short passage is a good example of very bad English composition:
Chinese are located throughout Vancouver.[86] 40% of the residents of a large portion of Southeast Vancouver are Chinese. The Granville and 49th area within South Vancouver also has a Chinese population.[87] Significant Chinese populations are located in all Greater Vancouver neighbourhoods.[88] The Vancouver Chinatown is the largest Chinatown in Canada.
Never mind that it repeats statements already in the article, and more than once in most cases; it's trite and "A is B in C"....and don't you see that the third sentence is the very same content as the first one???? You should go to your university that you graduated from and take a course in creative writing....and start reading more than academic-ese, you claim to be a native speaker of English, Level 1, it's time to start sounding like one and writing in a mannner that doesn't sound so........bald. Try reading novels - if not those online histories I've repeatedly recommended, and find a night school course to get help with your English composition skills. This is friendly advice, not NPA. You sound like a high schooler and if this were a university paper, I'd have failed you for not using good English, no matter who you are.
And that last sentence about Vancouver's Chinatown being the largest is dated, isn't it? - per the content elsewhere about Toronto's being the largest, or is that in reference to Toronto's Chinese population in general. As far as area goes, Spadina Avenue's Chinatown is much larger than Vancouver's few square blocks; Chinatown-like areas are found along Kingsway and on South Victoria Drive and more, not just in Golden Village, also. But they're not called Chinatown, which in Vancouver is a name of a specific area and not a general term for areas where Chinese predominate in commercial presence and/or in population (often not the same thing at all as also with the San Gabriel Valley so-called "enclaves" where stores are Chinese, but the residents mostly aren't). Golden Village is also far larger in area than Chinatown per se; there's a new era of gentrification (by offshore Chinese capital) that threatens to destroy much heritage and atmosphere in Chinatown, by the way; you should look that up; should be something on The Tyee or The Vancouver Observer] and maybe in the West Ender or Vancouver Courier or The Georgia Straight. The Tyee has a lot of articles relevant to the CCinBC page, and some authors who specialize in history; you should be researching that, along with all else I've suggested you undertake to educate yourself with not just about the Chinese in BC ,but about all of BC. Skookum1 ( talk) 08:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
HazelAB ( talk) 18:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey Skookum1, I noticed this recent edit you made to Wikipedia:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board/Requests. Were you looking for temporary foreign worker program in Canada by any chance? (Or the more general temporary residency.) There also seems to be information about this scattered within numerous articles about companies and other entities, among them Royal Bank of Canada, McDonald's Canada, Sears Canada , and International Union of Operating Engineers. Mind matrix 15:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Skookum1, thanks for your edits to Wong Foon Sien. One minor issue I had was with this edit. I think you may have misinterpreted the meaning of the sentence (and I apologize if I phrased it ambiguously to cause such as misunderstanding). The sentence was saying "the CBA achieved its peak" because of:
The source states it as "When he became one of the co-chairmen of the CBA in 1948, he brought to that position numerous outside connections, including his Canadian Liberal Party membership and wide acquaintance with mainstream journalists and leaders of other minority groups."
On further review, perhaps neither of us is quite right in this respect, and the sentence needs a bit of an overhaul. Mind matrix 20:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
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Italics below were added by me to emphasize the points highlighted in regard to your current encouragement of a very obvious POV fork and walled garden; Quality of content and NPOV should be your concern, not just whether something is well-formatted or not. I'll be cleaning up the TRIVIA/SYNTH and bad English and repetitious mention of the same events and the entire sections built on only one biased author in the next while; and will ignore the POV fork now under construction nuntil it is fielded as an article; when it will immediately deserve an NPOV template, and also a SYNTH template; I've had a look, and the same problems and POV agenda are not just much in evidence, but shamelessly re-perpetrated;
NPOV is a policy. Conflations that WP:Verifiability mandates exclusions of sources that don't fit the target POV are nonsensical and as noted before, not at all what that policy, or the RS guideline, actually say. Whatever, if the following passages of the NPOV policy don't jog your sense of wiki-responsibility I don't know what will. Condoning NPOV violations in the name of mediation is not valid; truth and untruth are not equal, nor are NPOV vs rank POV. My discoveries of further cites re the "Hongcouver" section that are contrary to the cherry-picked ones presented as a SYNTH argument are just one example of the many things wrong with the content referred to (see the history at CCinBC), and the following passages of the NPOV policy mirror exactly what I've been saying for months.... and been persecuted and even threatened with punishment/discipline over, even though it's policy that I'm seeking to have respected, rather than dismissed as unimportant vs someone else's (false) claims about what the Verifiability policy says.
A common argument in a dispute about reliable sources is that one source is biased and so another source should be given preference. The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the writer's point of view.
An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic.
Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes. A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article.
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view.
See the content-fork guideline for clarification on the issues raised in this section. A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. POV forks are not permitted in Wikipedia. All facts and significant points of view on a given subject should be treated in one article except in the case of an article spinout. Some topics are so large that one article cannot reasonably cover all facets of the topic. For example, evolution, evolution as fact and theory, creationism, and creation-evolution controversy are separate articles. This type of split is permissible only if written from a neutral point of view and must not be an attempt to evade the consensus process at another article.
Given the meaning of those passages, it's very clear that policy is being violated, and likely has across dozens of other articles by the same author; I despair that the NPOV board will see any action taken, and may consider this as an ARBCOM matter.... but the bureaucracy and senior adminship don't seem ready or willing to take meaningful action on scores of POV matters around Wikipedia, so I don't hold much hope that NPOV will ever actually be regarded with teh important it deserves; rather many of those senior Wikipedians don't seem to have enough knowledge of the respective subject matters, or are already compromised by COI/AUTO contexts, to be able to discern or are ready to deal with POV content the way it should be; deletion, with the perpetrator banned and all their contributinos reviewed and/or deleted.
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
To me there's no disputing what you are doing; it is clearly in contravention of policy, and more than one guideline; just as WTM has been; and you know even less about the subject matter, and have come up with this reason not to allow it to be discussed - page-cites. In other words, you have engaged the red-herring nature of that instruction creep/claim as must-be-dealt-with-first technicality, in order to avoid having to recognize the POV nature of the content, and the manner it has been presented.
Not the first time I've seen somebody who's done things against guidelines and/or policy and who doesn't know the material has been censor-ish in rejecting debate, and saying "here, go play with the wolves for a while" as a way to avoid respecting neutrality of content, which neither YOU nor your now-protege have been doing; or seemingly intend ever to do:
All his POVism and SYNTH is being rebuilt in that sandbox under your care and encouragement, and the pretense that the harsh POV of the resulting contents, never mind their TRIVIA and UNDUE and ESSAY and other guideline and style violations (and more American spelling/usage, no doubt). You claimed to have wanted to resolve the problem, which is NPOV violation, rather you took one side and now refuse completely to listen to someone bringing policy into your lap by saying that it's not allowed on your talkpage unless some red-herring technical issue is resolved; it has been; it's not in guidelines or policy anywhere; only by extension/SYNTH; a false technicality being used as a roadblock by you. That makes your pretense of neutrality and.....authority?.....all the more strange, and undeserved.
NPOV is what it is; rejecting it and encouraging someone clearly intent on building a walled garden POV article when there are many others covering the same topic is clearly against the NPOV and POV Fork policies.
DRV is as pointless as RM as a place to find redress and correction for top-priority policy violations; and seeing how the OR and RS boards have been so misrepresented as to what was said on them, this is not a dispute, no, it's been a "shut up and obey" game for a long time now, again to silence discussion of the NPOV issues and SYNTH and other violations of too many things to list. No, indeedy, this is not for DRV; whether ARBCOM is useful or not, this will be a formal complaint of serious policy violation, in the name of giving precedent to conflated/false claims about guidelines being used to block discussion or information highly pertinent to the NPOV policy and the POV fork sandbox....which quite honestly, should be deleted as clearly against violations, given the context of its origin and its direct violation of the POV fork policy and other passages of the NPOV policy.
Please take down that quote from the Dhammapada, given your treatment of me - and your willingness to pander to really offensive POV - it's really quite unfitting for you to play the bodhisattva role; as too often in Wikipedia, talking softly isn't always as CIVIL was it sets itself up to be, and those who talk softly often have little of value to say, and just as much disrespect for content as they do for editors..... Skookum1 ( talk) 15:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I thought I would pop off this note as I noticed you had an interest in the Canada locator maps. I started a conversation on the help desk regarding the map of Saskatchewan under the title Error in maps and therefore in the GPS coordinates. The map titled File:Canada_Saskatchewan_location_map.svg does not look my province of Saskatchewan. There should be curvilinear lines north and south. The eastern and western borders albeit are parallel lines, however they are in no way parallel to each other. I see the map NordNordWest used as a template File:Canada_Saskatchewan_relief_location_map.jpg, but it is not a good one at all. The boundaries for Saskatchewan have never changed, I think the cartograher who made File:Canada_Saskatchewan_relief_location_map.jpg took a short cut and made it rectangular with square corners in error. This one MapSK.JPG shows the not parallel east west boundaries and the curved north south borders the best, but it should be oriented more north and south and not off on a diagonal. This also shows the borders well. Saskatchewan Municipalities.png, or this one SK-Canada-province.png. I have contacted user_talk:NordNordWest, the creator of the SVG locater map who seems to have good map making skills BTW I know they have to be rather particular to work with the GPS robot. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 14:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
New to Wiki and saw that you had an interest in Alaska/BC Geography. Would appreciate your unofficial review of an article I have almost completed.
/info/en/?search=Draft:Geospatial_Summary_of_the_High_Peaks/Summits_of_the_Juneau_Icefield
Added more to explain why minor peaks were included. The article does seem like OR, but what I have done is cross reference USGS datasets between themselves so as to permit a method to report the Nunatak and HUC areas (2 dimensional) to a one dimensional location for reference purposes. The Nunatak and Glacier articles are almost done and would have been included in one article, but they exceeded the template capacity of WP.
The article started out as a compilation of peaks (unclimbed) in the Juneau area for a future expedition, but got out of control.
The question of OR is a fine line. It is reported in many scientific journals (ie. Journal of Glaciology) that the Juneau Icefield contains 53 outlet glaciers. I was not able to find what they were. By compiling the list of reported(by the USGS) glaciers, I can count them. What happens if the WP article in summarizing the USGS data finds that the scientific articles are wrong? Is that original research?
More guidance is appreciated.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 |
I did read your complaint at User talk:Jimbo Wales, but it's just hard to respond to. You take a poke at twenty different issues at once, not explaining any of them well enough to be understood, though the sources you provide for a few are useful. You mix it in with sarcasm or metaphor that doesn't work well on the Internet about lizard people and Vogon fleets, which drives away the average reader. Now, few things would please me more than to watch a video feed of Harper, Cameron, etc. experiencing female genital mutilation at the hands of Boko Haram, but what do you want people on Wikipedia to do, precisely? I'm sure you have ideas but they really do get lost in there somewhere.
I would suggest...
I knwo propaganda techniques when I see them, I've been on this planet a long time (and wish I could remember where the keys to my spaceship are - joke - it's time to get out of this crazy self-immolating sphere), and the amount of edits coming all at once suggests robotic tools to post/edit with; as also noted re a certain other editor who reverted things so rapidly he must have an external bot to do it with; but I suspect a team, which is why I mentioned CHECKUSER; it's after that that he's backed off and still protesting innocence with finger-in-cheek paints me as the bad guy who's "interfering" with him .... yadayadayada could go on for pages about that; now I'm just gonna work on the article and ignore anything he says, just as he did with anything I brought forward other than when taking it to discussion boards to try and get backup, or pretend that they said things approving of his position when they did not, not even close...
There's an article in the current Epoch Times about cyberwar actions by China; I paraphrase it somewhere not sure which place, and in today's Guardian there was an item about a new "pscyhological warfare" unit of the British military whose job it is to infiltrate Twitter, FB and other social media; without mentioning Wikipedia but it's a given that any social media is the field of combat.
The 'shoot the messenger so as to not admit to the issue/message' is so rife in Wikipedia, along with the TLRD/WOT bullshit where people say they won't read what you have to say because it's too long/they don't have time and do so in an uncivil and NPA manner.....tehy're entrenched, to the point that WOT is a guideline; once I pointed out that the invocation of TLDR on talkpages was not what it was for; and while WP:Wikilawyering demonstrably exists, to say someone is wikilawyering has become grounds for an ANI - ???? So, you can't criticize someone's editing activity without being threatened with a block as if that were NPA on the same par as 'asshole' or "you're stupid". You can't get into evidence of dishonesty; that's against the "new rules" that have arisen in the culture of "the community" in recent years ... reminds me or Parliament where you can't call someone a liar even when they obviously are. Absurdity combined with imperious condemnations if you speak out.
That's only some of what's out there; China has warred on Tibet and other articles for years, Russia and Ukraine articles/editors are at each other's throats; in Thailand it's dangerous, ant not just re jailtime, to engage in any political writing of any kind; and it's not the only country that's like that either...I left there because of the deteriorating situation and increasingly dangerous political milieu and a mounting sense of anti-farang attitudes/conduct and more; and keep my nose out of Cambodian politics (even though I do a news show here) for good reason.
Between corporate, country, partisan, and defence/m-i and "security state" moles, it's a multi-front problem and the integrityy o the encylopedia "anyone can edit" is inheretnly flawed, leaving it wide open to manipualtio by anyone with the skills and determination/agenda funding to spend all day, every day, warring to control and maniuplted or, as The Photographer noted, to block people who stand up to it.
The pipeline questions I'll come back to later and theyh answers you'll hear involve differnt quetions than you've asked. lots is out there, but because MSM wont' cover it and necessary facts are not found in their reportage, and th e oil sector have a powerful lobby here it's going to have to be explained later... I'm tired. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be uppercase? Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 20:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed you have a keen interest in numerous aspects of BC history, and that you have a specific interest in the Phil Gaglardi article, to which you've contributed quite a few times.
Mr. Gaglardi's contributions to the development of the highways were a bit before the awakening of my political awareness. I haven't known who to ask about this, and possibly you know:
Did Phil Gaglardi have some responsibility for the development (or marked improvement) of the southern-route Highway 3 in the Castlegar area? and also Highway 3A from Castlegar to Nelson? Thanks in advance for any reply. Joel Russ ( talk) 01:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I am offering to give you pages of the Morton book. You can use a throwaway e-mail under whatever name you choose (an e-mail address that you don't use with anyone else or for any other purpose, and one which you can abandon after using it). I will give you the table of contents, chronology, sources other than newspapers, and index. Then you can decide what pages you want. I can send you maybe one to two chapters of the book of your choosing. WhisperToMe ( talk) 18:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
WhisperToMe ( talk) 07:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
there is another I had ready to copy-paste but I had a blue screen of death and will have to find it again - and fix it. But this short passage is a good example of very bad English composition:
Chinese are located throughout Vancouver.[86] 40% of the residents of a large portion of Southeast Vancouver are Chinese. The Granville and 49th area within South Vancouver also has a Chinese population.[87] Significant Chinese populations are located in all Greater Vancouver neighbourhoods.[88] The Vancouver Chinatown is the largest Chinatown in Canada.
Never mind that it repeats statements already in the article, and more than once in most cases; it's trite and "A is B in C"....and don't you see that the third sentence is the very same content as the first one???? You should go to your university that you graduated from and take a course in creative writing....and start reading more than academic-ese, you claim to be a native speaker of English, Level 1, it's time to start sounding like one and writing in a mannner that doesn't sound so........bald. Try reading novels - if not those online histories I've repeatedly recommended, and find a night school course to get help with your English composition skills. This is friendly advice, not NPA. You sound like a high schooler and if this were a university paper, I'd have failed you for not using good English, no matter who you are.
And that last sentence about Vancouver's Chinatown being the largest is dated, isn't it? - per the content elsewhere about Toronto's being the largest, or is that in reference to Toronto's Chinese population in general. As far as area goes, Spadina Avenue's Chinatown is much larger than Vancouver's few square blocks; Chinatown-like areas are found along Kingsway and on South Victoria Drive and more, not just in Golden Village, also. But they're not called Chinatown, which in Vancouver is a name of a specific area and not a general term for areas where Chinese predominate in commercial presence and/or in population (often not the same thing at all as also with the San Gabriel Valley so-called "enclaves" where stores are Chinese, but the residents mostly aren't). Golden Village is also far larger in area than Chinatown per se; there's a new era of gentrification (by offshore Chinese capital) that threatens to destroy much heritage and atmosphere in Chinatown, by the way; you should look that up; should be something on The Tyee or The Vancouver Observer] and maybe in the West Ender or Vancouver Courier or The Georgia Straight. The Tyee has a lot of articles relevant to the CCinBC page, and some authors who specialize in history; you should be researching that, along with all else I've suggested you undertake to educate yourself with not just about the Chinese in BC ,but about all of BC. Skookum1 ( talk) 08:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
HazelAB ( talk) 18:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey Skookum1, I noticed this recent edit you made to Wikipedia:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board/Requests. Were you looking for temporary foreign worker program in Canada by any chance? (Or the more general temporary residency.) There also seems to be information about this scattered within numerous articles about companies and other entities, among them Royal Bank of Canada, McDonald's Canada, Sears Canada , and International Union of Operating Engineers. Mind matrix 15:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Skookum1, thanks for your edits to Wong Foon Sien. One minor issue I had was with this edit. I think you may have misinterpreted the meaning of the sentence (and I apologize if I phrased it ambiguously to cause such as misunderstanding). The sentence was saying "the CBA achieved its peak" because of:
The source states it as "When he became one of the co-chairmen of the CBA in 1948, he brought to that position numerous outside connections, including his Canadian Liberal Party membership and wide acquaintance with mainstream journalists and leaders of other minority groups."
On further review, perhaps neither of us is quite right in this respect, and the sentence needs a bit of an overhaul. Mind matrix 20:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
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Italics below were added by me to emphasize the points highlighted in regard to your current encouragement of a very obvious POV fork and walled garden; Quality of content and NPOV should be your concern, not just whether something is well-formatted or not. I'll be cleaning up the TRIVIA/SYNTH and bad English and repetitious mention of the same events and the entire sections built on only one biased author in the next while; and will ignore the POV fork now under construction nuntil it is fielded as an article; when it will immediately deserve an NPOV template, and also a SYNTH template; I've had a look, and the same problems and POV agenda are not just much in evidence, but shamelessly re-perpetrated;
NPOV is a policy. Conflations that WP:Verifiability mandates exclusions of sources that don't fit the target POV are nonsensical and as noted before, not at all what that policy, or the RS guideline, actually say. Whatever, if the following passages of the NPOV policy don't jog your sense of wiki-responsibility I don't know what will. Condoning NPOV violations in the name of mediation is not valid; truth and untruth are not equal, nor are NPOV vs rank POV. My discoveries of further cites re the "Hongcouver" section that are contrary to the cherry-picked ones presented as a SYNTH argument are just one example of the many things wrong with the content referred to (see the history at CCinBC), and the following passages of the NPOV policy mirror exactly what I've been saying for months.... and been persecuted and even threatened with punishment/discipline over, even though it's policy that I'm seeking to have respected, rather than dismissed as unimportant vs someone else's (false) claims about what the Verifiability policy says.
A common argument in a dispute about reliable sources is that one source is biased and so another source should be given preference. The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the writer's point of view.
An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic.
Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes. A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article.
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view.
See the content-fork guideline for clarification on the issues raised in this section. A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. POV forks are not permitted in Wikipedia. All facts and significant points of view on a given subject should be treated in one article except in the case of an article spinout. Some topics are so large that one article cannot reasonably cover all facets of the topic. For example, evolution, evolution as fact and theory, creationism, and creation-evolution controversy are separate articles. This type of split is permissible only if written from a neutral point of view and must not be an attempt to evade the consensus process at another article.
Given the meaning of those passages, it's very clear that policy is being violated, and likely has across dozens of other articles by the same author; I despair that the NPOV board will see any action taken, and may consider this as an ARBCOM matter.... but the bureaucracy and senior adminship don't seem ready or willing to take meaningful action on scores of POV matters around Wikipedia, so I don't hold much hope that NPOV will ever actually be regarded with teh important it deserves; rather many of those senior Wikipedians don't seem to have enough knowledge of the respective subject matters, or are already compromised by COI/AUTO contexts, to be able to discern or are ready to deal with POV content the way it should be; deletion, with the perpetrator banned and all their contributinos reviewed and/or deleted.
Skookum1 (
talk)
09:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
To me there's no disputing what you are doing; it is clearly in contravention of policy, and more than one guideline; just as WTM has been; and you know even less about the subject matter, and have come up with this reason not to allow it to be discussed - page-cites. In other words, you have engaged the red-herring nature of that instruction creep/claim as must-be-dealt-with-first technicality, in order to avoid having to recognize the POV nature of the content, and the manner it has been presented.
Not the first time I've seen somebody who's done things against guidelines and/or policy and who doesn't know the material has been censor-ish in rejecting debate, and saying "here, go play with the wolves for a while" as a way to avoid respecting neutrality of content, which neither YOU nor your now-protege have been doing; or seemingly intend ever to do:
All his POVism and SYNTH is being rebuilt in that sandbox under your care and encouragement, and the pretense that the harsh POV of the resulting contents, never mind their TRIVIA and UNDUE and ESSAY and other guideline and style violations (and more American spelling/usage, no doubt). You claimed to have wanted to resolve the problem, which is NPOV violation, rather you took one side and now refuse completely to listen to someone bringing policy into your lap by saying that it's not allowed on your talkpage unless some red-herring technical issue is resolved; it has been; it's not in guidelines or policy anywhere; only by extension/SYNTH; a false technicality being used as a roadblock by you. That makes your pretense of neutrality and.....authority?.....all the more strange, and undeserved.
NPOV is what it is; rejecting it and encouraging someone clearly intent on building a walled garden POV article when there are many others covering the same topic is clearly against the NPOV and POV Fork policies.
DRV is as pointless as RM as a place to find redress and correction for top-priority policy violations; and seeing how the OR and RS boards have been so misrepresented as to what was said on them, this is not a dispute, no, it's been a "shut up and obey" game for a long time now, again to silence discussion of the NPOV issues and SYNTH and other violations of too many things to list. No, indeedy, this is not for DRV; whether ARBCOM is useful or not, this will be a formal complaint of serious policy violation, in the name of giving precedent to conflated/false claims about guidelines being used to block discussion or information highly pertinent to the NPOV policy and the POV fork sandbox....which quite honestly, should be deleted as clearly against violations, given the context of its origin and its direct violation of the POV fork policy and other passages of the NPOV policy.
Please take down that quote from the Dhammapada, given your treatment of me - and your willingness to pander to really offensive POV - it's really quite unfitting for you to play the bodhisattva role; as too often in Wikipedia, talking softly isn't always as CIVIL was it sets itself up to be, and those who talk softly often have little of value to say, and just as much disrespect for content as they do for editors..... Skookum1 ( talk) 15:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I thought I would pop off this note as I noticed you had an interest in the Canada locator maps. I started a conversation on the help desk regarding the map of Saskatchewan under the title Error in maps and therefore in the GPS coordinates. The map titled File:Canada_Saskatchewan_location_map.svg does not look my province of Saskatchewan. There should be curvilinear lines north and south. The eastern and western borders albeit are parallel lines, however they are in no way parallel to each other. I see the map NordNordWest used as a template File:Canada_Saskatchewan_relief_location_map.jpg, but it is not a good one at all. The boundaries for Saskatchewan have never changed, I think the cartograher who made File:Canada_Saskatchewan_relief_location_map.jpg took a short cut and made it rectangular with square corners in error. This one MapSK.JPG shows the not parallel east west boundaries and the curved north south borders the best, but it should be oriented more north and south and not off on a diagonal. This also shows the borders well. Saskatchewan Municipalities.png, or this one SK-Canada-province.png. I have contacted user_talk:NordNordWest, the creator of the SVG locater map who seems to have good map making skills BTW I know they have to be rather particular to work with the GPS robot. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 14:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
New to Wiki and saw that you had an interest in Alaska/BC Geography. Would appreciate your unofficial review of an article I have almost completed.
/info/en/?search=Draft:Geospatial_Summary_of_the_High_Peaks/Summits_of_the_Juneau_Icefield
Added more to explain why minor peaks were included. The article does seem like OR, but what I have done is cross reference USGS datasets between themselves so as to permit a method to report the Nunatak and HUC areas (2 dimensional) to a one dimensional location for reference purposes. The Nunatak and Glacier articles are almost done and would have been included in one article, but they exceeded the template capacity of WP.
The article started out as a compilation of peaks (unclimbed) in the Juneau area for a future expedition, but got out of control.
The question of OR is a fine line. It is reported in many scientific journals (ie. Journal of Glaciology) that the Juneau Icefield contains 53 outlet glaciers. I was not able to find what they were. By compiling the list of reported(by the USGS) glaciers, I can count them. What happens if the WP article in summarizing the USGS data finds that the scientific articles are wrong? Is that original research?
More guidance is appreciated.