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Happy editing! Cheers, Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 07:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC) reply

Hello, Samuelshraga. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Dan Illouz, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot ( talk) 16:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Hello, Samuelshraga. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, " Dan Illouz".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC) reply

Yosef Family, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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'''[[ User:CanonNi]]''' ( talk| contribs) 08:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The discussion on the talk page has entered the tl;dr territory. I made already as a diligent work as I could (I am not an expert on this) and explained my edits. So whatever. I would rather do something else. Happy editing, My very best wishes ( talk) 21:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I'm sorry if my contributions are not concise enough. I don't want to frustrate you - I'm sure you're contributing in good faith. If you'd rather I stepped back from that page for a few weeks, I will, and we can see how the discussion ends up. Samuelshraga ( talk) 18:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

OK, fair enough. I did check what is happening on talk and felt that my involvement would be helpful. Speaking on the archive, I do not mind checking certain things there [1], but the WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS do apply to such sources. My very best wishes ( talk) 20:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I was originally minded to let content from the archive in, but I now think that using it at all would invariably be Original Research. Just as a note about the edit you linked to, the archive isn't detailing at all Cohen's attempt to stop publication in Russia. Everything I've seen in the archive has come after publication was already stopped in Russia, and Cohen et. al. just want to embarrass Figes after the fact by exposing the reasons why.

Anyway, my offer to step back stands, let me know if you'd rather I take a break from this page for a while. For my part, I am happy to collaborate even when we disagree. Samuelshraga ( talk) 21:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Speaking on this diff, the first phrase is my interpretation and should not appear in the article, but the direct quotation from the letter by Arseny Roginsky to Stephen F. Cohen could be cited on the page per WP:PRIMARY. It does not mean it must appear on the page, it well could be "undue", but it can. My very best wishes ( talk) 23:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I was curious because I read the book and think it was well written and interesting. Yes, he was retelling and summarizing the stories, and who cares if they were true in every minor detail? Yes, the archive is mostly an email correspondence that shows Cohen and some others (not OF) in a very negative light. Does not belong to WP of course. My very best wishes ( talk) 03:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

P.S. Some letters in this archive were entertaining. Page 99. Roginski: "The only thing I am absolutely sure about is that there was no any Kremlin's conspiracy against OF in this story". And he is writing this in a letter to the guy who is a Kremlin's agent of influence and did everything he could to discredit OF. This is classic. As Stanislav Lunev said, "the best spy will be everyone's best friend, not a shadowy figure in the corner." My very best wishes ( talk) 17:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

To be clear, I do not know why this book was not published in Russia, even after looking at this archive. This can be only a guess. If anyone on the "top" in Russia did not like the book (yes, it is offensive for typical former KGB people who rule Russia) and wanted to have it cancelled, they had a lot of ways, through the Dynasty, publishers, reviewers, etc. I can only say, based on the letters and publications, that the Dynasty had no intention to make a quality translation, and Cohen was "on the mission", but this could be just his personal bias, who knows. My very best wishes ( talk) 18:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I can see what you mean. I don't know anything about Cohen, but it certainly looks from his WP page like he becomes a Kremlin propaganda flack at some point. I don't know if that had already begun at the time of this correspondence or not - the examples on his page start at around 2014 (maybe around the invasion of Crimea?). Fundamentally, I can easily tell myself two stories about the Whisperers publication in Russia:

1. Whisperers is good work that faithfully reflects the experience of Soviet citizens crushed under Stalinism, that is scurrilously scuppered by the publishers under Kremlin influence, who hate the project. The difficulty here is Memorial's apparent bona fide role in the cancellation, but maybe the fact check was really the exclusive work of Ostrovskaya, and Figes is correct that she hates him, or maybe Ostrovskaya is even a Kremlin plant for this purpose.

2. Whisperers is shoddy work, that falsifies or distorts the stories of individual victims of Stalinism, that the publisher and Memorial cancel because they know that such a book will come under heavy scrutiny in Russia, and they would be dangerously politically exposed if they are careless with this history.

I think either story could be consistent with the contents of the archive, but there's no way that you or I could or should make that judgement on wikipedia. Samuelshraga ( talk) 19:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, we can not write any version exactly as you did. Version #1 is close except having a piece of OR ("under Kremlin influence, who hate the project"). Plus a few comments. 1. OF was making summaries where some details were not exact, and there were inevitable errors. Does it mean the work was "shoddy"? No, this is just not a pure documentary, but a book that is closely based on real facts and people. The Gulag Archipelago is another example. This is a legitimate genre. It can never be precise in every detail. 2. Roginsky, the head of the Memorial, wrote in his letter (page 98, in bold letters!) "We [Memorial] never were against publishing the Russian translation." He also explains what exactly was the agreement with OF. It does not include any role in evaluation the quality of the work by OF. They were not even suppose to be making any reviews. My very best wishes ( talk) 19:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I wasn't suggesting we include either version in any way! I'm also not saying Figes was shoddy, I'm just saying that this was an accusation repeated in RS. Also, Solzhenitsyn was giving a first person account, so I think it's different. It was Alexander Isayevich's story to tell, however he wished. Samuelshraga ( talk) 20:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Speaking on Gulag Archipelago, no, of course not. The book is based on stories by hundreds prisoners collected by S., along with his own story. The "oral history" by OF is nothing new, except that unlike Solzhenitsyn, his stories are documented by the Memorial and therefore more reliable. "His own story to tell" would be something like memoirs by Julius Margolin, A Journey to the Land Ze-Ka, an excellent book. My very best wishes ( talk) 00:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• [2]. They have no obligation to respond. If you care, you should either submit a WP:SPI report or ask an advice from an admin. I thought about it too, but realized this probably would not be helpful because that the situation is clear at the moment (no one pretends to be someone else), and other accounts are rather old. Of course if new accounts appear, that would be a good time to submit WP:SPI. My very best wishes ( talk) 14:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

  I know they have no obligation to respond. I am giving him every chance to come clean. If he continues being rude (not to mention the Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND and Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behaviour, I will just SPI and I imagine he'll be blocked). But I don't want to, because honestly I feel bad for him and want to give him a chance to weigh in. He just should realise that he's not entitled to get his way. Samuelshraga ( talk) 14:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Speaking on other accounts, this is pretty much WP:DUCK. However, I do not see his comments as rude or BATTLEGROUD, and I do not mind him commenting on talk to clarify anything. The sockpuppetry, yes, I think that was the issue. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I think his last comment was rude. I've spent a ridiculous amount of time examining his claims (including a fair amount of reading in Russian, which takes me a bloody long time), and him asserting that we don't read his comments because we don't agree with them is just rude. Samuelshraga ( talk) 15:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

By the way, @ My very best wishes - having spent so much time on these disputes going round in circles, I decided to have a look at the talk page archive, only to discover you had been there longer than I thought! In fact that you've been having the exact same discussion on the exact same material for over a decade - on excising the section completely, on Figes' legal threats etc. It seems like there was a consensus for inclusion then, is there some reason why that consensus would have changed? Samuelshraga ( talk) 15:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

" having spent so much time...". I completely agree: you could spend it much better by doing something else in the project. Me too. My very best wishes ( talk) 22:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, you've said you'd do that before, but you keep going back there. Spare me going into the edit history - are you removing or cutting down this section repeatedly, knowing that (going back years) you've been in discussions where there's been a consensus to keep it in a fuller form? Samuelshraga ( talk) 05:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply

While you are talking about consensus, remember that it should be documented. For example, having an RfC that has been properly closed would be establishing a documented consensus. Simply having 2 contributors with one opinion (e.g. to include this section) and another who disagree does not mean establishing consensus. In addition, consensus can change. Saying that, I think that the disagreement does not required an RfC, it was minor and agree to keep a compromise version of such section (current version), as I already said on article talk page. My very best wishes ( talk) 05:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Consensus can change, but it cannot be changed by assertion - particularly when most editors are bringing policy-based arguments that it has not changed. You've been saying this material is unnecessary for nearly a decade and a half, and consensus is clearly not that. Editors were arguing with you about the Figes legal threats then, and I honestly feel a bit miffed that you can come now and start saying that these are only alleged and denying them? Did you forget?

I just want to know what kind of consensus you would find sufficient that you would drop the idea that this content doesn't belong? I'll hold myself to the same standard if the consensus goes the other way. Samuelshraga ( talk) 08:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply

• Re to [3]. I think you clarified two possible versions of the section and can start an RfC with a question "which version would be better?" if you feel your changes are so important (I would not). I also would be very careful here. Consider this case. This all started from a historian publishing a paper about wrong coverage of certain subjects in WP and complaining to Wikimedia Foundation. In my opinion, such conflicts should be resolved amicably (if possible and consistent with our policies), through editing and discussion on relevant pages, to minimize a potential disruption, among other things. I have done my best in this regard already. I think the comments and suggestions by OF on the talk page were reasonable and consistent with our BLP policy. There is no need to do anything at this point. As about him allegedly using multiple accounts, you would have to submit an official WP:SPI report. I would not because at this point I think that issue has been resolved. Good luck! My very best wishes ( talk) 17:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  I guess I will have to do this. It won't be immediate, I've never done an RfC before so will read up about them before I open it. Samuelshraga ( talk) 07:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ My very best wishes: Having learned of you broaching the possibility of an RfC over the inclusion of certain details in the account of Orlando Figes's pseudonymous Amazon reviews (I note there are no sources which contradict the longer version), I am not in principle against the idea, although it would be preferable not to discuss this on a personal page.

  As I have not yet had the chance to read through everything on this page or to address the points raised in the discussion summary section on the talk page, I will ask Samuelshraga and yourself to allow me time to do so. That said, it seems that the potential RfC would have to revolve around due weight as no other admissible arguments have been brought forward against the extended version, some minor issues of clarification aside.

  Regarding the other points you make, I fail to see any similarity between the case you have adduced and the present dispute beyond your involvement in both - and judging from the user page of Orlandofiges aka RenamedAccount its implication in sockpuppetry has been confirmed. The issue is presumably about to be resolved with a ban - but if you have other information, it would be helpful to know. Looking forward to further discussion. VampaVampa ( talk) 04:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ VampaVampa of course you can have time - let me know when you think an RfC can be opened. I have no information about Orlandofiges sockpuppetry other than what appears on their user page, and what I (and MVBW) see as the obvious connection with User:London67943. Samuelshraga ( talk) 05:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  Thank you and I am sorry for the previous silence and for any confusion. With the exception of the request for time, I was replying to MVBW above, I hope you can pardon the intrusion - I do look forward to working with you on this. VampaVampa ( talk) 05:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  No problem. You'll update when you're ready? Samuelshraga ( talk) 06:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC) reply