Sam, I know you care a lot about the distinction "God" vs. "god". But you are going a bit too far now. "Horned God" is usually capitalized, not because he is considered Singular, but, just like "United States" is not spelled "united states", because you have particular states in mind, "Horned God" is capitalized, because the name refers to a particular god, not just any random god who happens to have horns. Look at http://www.google.com/search?q=%22horned+god%22 and see how many instances of "Horned god" you can find. Please move it back. dab (ᛏ ) 13:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's simple, Sam. I don't think admins should abuse their powers, even if they think what they are doing will gain approval. I especially think they shouldn't do it on pages they are involved in disputes over. Essentially, I do not feel there should be a privileged class here. Its existence has a great deal to do with the rot of this place. But given that we do have them, I think their powers should be extremely circumscribed, and they should know that they are. Dr Zen 02:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Happy New Year, Sam I added more changes to help outsiders better understand Hinduism in the article Hinduism. Here's some of the added language: Contemporary Hinduism is now divided into four major divisions, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism. Just as Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same one God (eg., Yahweh, and Allah for example) but differ in their conceptions of Him, Hindus all believe in one God but differ in their conceptions. The two primary form of differences are between the two monotheistic religions of Vaishnavism which conceives God as Vishnu and Shaivism, which conceives God as Shiva. Other minor forms are aspects of Vishnu or Shiva; see Smartism for more information. I hope this clarifies once and for all that Hindus primarily worship the supreme personal God in form of Vishnu and Shiva. The Divine Mother or Shakti is simply God's Power personified and is not separate. Raj2004 02:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Sam, God is Brahman. Theistic denominations of Saivism and Vaishnavism call Nirguna Brahman Parasiva and Mahavishnu. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been helped personally very much by God's love. We all pray differently but the result is same. There is a God and we must open ourselves to God's grace. Vedantists call God Brahman as you are correct. For Saivites and Vaishnvaites respectively, the personal God is Brahman. Raj2004 11:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also people will approach God differently and in their own way. What matters is faith and belief. Just for curiousity, is there any particular prayer you pray? Is it the Lord's prayer or a Hindu prayer? I myself have been chanting Vishnu sahasranama every day since March and it has been a tremendous source of strength. Raj2004 11:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sam, here's an inspirational story of God's grace for the New Year. http://www.ashram.org/satsang_eng/ladymartin.html Again, have faith and belief in God, no matter what form or even you don't believe in God has no form at all. Even the most theistic Vaishnavites and Shaivites believe God has no form but use the form to concentrate. Raj2004 12:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Sam, a better term is panentheism or pantheism. In panenethesim, the universe is part of the body of God and God is pervading everywhere. In panetheism, the universe is God. Hindus learn more through panenthesm. That's why in Hinduism, Vishnu is called the All-pervading One. I don't know if you know the story of the avatar of Narasimha. In it, the evil king asks his son where your God is. Prahlad says everywhere. The king then wants Prahald to worship him but he refuses. The king says I will kill you and let's see if your God is everwhere. Then Narasimha appears. Raj2004 12:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Very interesting. Also, I am convinced even geogically, a great flood did happen, perhaps 10,000 years ago after the end of the last Ice age. Also, I see a similarity between Manu and man. Perhaps man term derived from Manu. Raj2004 13:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the indo-european language group is very ancient, with many cognates. The flood was when the straits of gibralter broke, and the mediteranean flooded, I think. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 13:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm Neigel again. After I knew you're 'in favour of Vincent (I'm his formal advocate) in the very problematic Talk:Charles Darwin, I want you to cooperate in the Mediation process that I'm accelerating. I know you're not a popular user here (specially thanks your friend Adraeus), but we need (properly, Vincent needs) your help, Sam. Cheers -- Neigel von Teighen 18:40, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please delete Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mbecker since it is invalid. — マイケル ₪ 06:17, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
Can I put ebooks (possibly illegal) links in my wikipedia user pages? - Sridhar 08:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No problem, Sam and thanks. Happy New Year to you and your family as well. There is a common perception that Vishnu and Shiva as aspects of a personal supreme God is absent in the Vedas. That's not true. The Rudram, a Vedic hymn, decribes Rudra, an earlier aspect of Siva as Brahman. Yes, there are less Vedic hymns to those aspects of God. I believe religion evolves like any cultural thing. Even in the Bible, Yahweh was first conceived as a tribal god before he was conceived as the God of all. I think there was more emphasis on deva worship as ritual sacrifices were more in use and the need to obtain material things. That changed as Krishna in the Gita discouraged elaborate sacrifices and said those who worshipped devas instead of Him as God were of limited understanding. Also He encouraged that God only wants love and one does not need elaborate rituals to attain Him. Relevant verses from Gita: O Arjuna, even those devotees who worship other lesser deities (e.g., Devas, for example) with faith, they also worship Me, but in an improper way because I am the Supreme Being. I alone am the enjoyer of all sacrificial services (Seva, Yajna) and Lord of the universe." (Gita: 9:23) These are relevant verses from the Gita:
Chapter 9, Verse 23. Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true understanding.
Chapter 9, Verse 24. I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down. Chapter 9, Verse 25. Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods devas; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.
Finally, this verse from Gita discouragd sacrifices;
If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. 9:26
Also I have created new articles on Nayanars, sixty-three saints dedicated to worship of Shiva, Kanapa, and the famed Kalahasti temple. Enjoy reading!
Raj2004 23:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've been trying to learn how to better work with this community, and the list of links you left in my talk page was extremely helpful. I expect I'll be referring to it for most of my stay here. Many thanks for helping out a wayward newbie! Arisna 23:42, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Vaishnavites' cite Rig Veda 1.22.20, for the supremacy of Vishnu, which states, "As the blazing sun pervades the entire sky like an eye fixed in the heavens, so the divine seers eternally perceive that supreme abode of Vishnu." Also, the foreword of P. Sankaranarayan's translation of Vishnu sahasranama, Bhavan's Book University, cites Rig Veda V.I.15b.3, for the importance of chanting Vishnu's name by stating, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization." Raj2004 23:44, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sam, may God be with you as well as your family. Let's pray for the victims of the tsunami. Raj2004 00:28, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have pic of the day template in my userpage. Why it is not getting updated? - Sridhar 07:02, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
For some reason, I haven't been able to center the SACN template the way most other templates are, despite serious attempts at copying the centering code from other (centered) templates. Help? Thanks in advance, Nightstallion 21:19, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
AMA Member Advocate,
There's a poll currently in the AMA Homepage about making a new AMA Coordinator election. Please, cast your vote there (though it's not mandatory). Any comments you have about this, write it on the AMA Homepage talk page. Cheers, -- Neigel von Teighen 18:43, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hey, Sam how is it going? As AMA Coordinator I am requesting that suggestions be placed on Wikipedia:AMA Membership Meeting plans for our first membership meeting, to be held in the near future, (hopefully before any election occurs.) Since we have never had any kind of "official" meeting we need to discuss how this will occur (i.e. Wiki pages or IRC channel), how it will be structured (i.e. meeting agenda) and if there will be any "chair" to supervise the meeting and meeting "secretary" to write up minutes or keep some kind of official record of what transpires. Thanks in advance for your input and for all your continued work as an advocate. — © Alex756 20:09, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I found some shocking profanity & arrogant nastiness on the deist/deism page & I am so new at this, I don't know how to fix it, or what to do. I couldn't edit it because the bad parts didn't show up in the code. I don't know what to do, I only just logged in for the first time. thank you for helping & for welcoming me. I use this sight every day for educational purposes & this was the first time I'd seen a mistake so you guys are doing excellent work. Thanks sabbastian
Sam, thanks for your help on Ishta Deva. I have written an article a while back on Karma in Hinduism and how it is different from Buddhism and Jainism. Please feel free to take a look at it. Raj2004 11:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) For your info, this is Swami Sivananda's defintion of a guru. I doubt Sathya Sai Baba remotely fits this category. "The guru is God himself manifesting in a personal form to guide the aspirant. Grace of God takes the form of the guru. To see the guru is to see God. The guru is united with God. He inspires devotion in others and his presence purifies all. The guru is verily a link between the individual and the immortal. He is a being who has raised himself from this to That, and thus has free and unhampered access into both realms. He stands, as it were, upon the threshold of immortality; and, bending down he raises the struggling individuals with one hand, while with the other he lifts them up into the imperium of everlasting joy and infinite truth-consciousness. The true guru is Brahman himself. He is an ocean of bliss, knowledge and mercy. He is the captain of your soul, the fountain of joy. He removes all your troubles, sorrows and obstacles. He shows you the right divine path and tears your veil of ignorance. He makes you immortal and divine, transmuting your lower, diabolical nature. He gives you the rope of knowledge, and takes you up when you are drowning in this ocean of births and deaths. Do not consider him to be only a man, for, if you do, you are a beast. Worship your guru and bow to him with reverence. Guru is God. A word from him is a word from God. He need not teach anything. Even his presence or company is elevating, inspiring and stirring, his very company being self-illumination. Living in his company is spiritual education. Read the Granth-Saheb (the holy scripture of the Sikh religion). You will come to know the greatness of the guru. Man can learn only from man, and hence God teaches through a human body. In your guru, you have your human ideal of perfection, the pattern into which you wish to mould yourself. Your mind will readily be convinced that such a great soul is fit to be worshipped and revered. Guru is the door to liberation, the gateway to the transcendental truth-consciousness. But, it is the aspirant that has to enter through it. The guru is a help, but the actual task of practical spiritual practice falls on the aspirant himself. The guru's tender smile radiates light, bliss, joy, knowledge, peace. He is a blessing to suffering humanity. Whatever he says is Upanishadic teaching. The guru knows the spiritual path. He knows the pitfalls and snares on the way. He gives timely warning to his students. He showers his grace on their heads. All agonies, miseries, tribulations, taints of worldliness, etc., vanish in his presence."
As I said before, such case is limited in contemporary times. Examples of such God-realized gurus include Ramakrishna and Raghavendra Swami.
Raj2004 12:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That's true, Sam and thanks. even Hindus don't worship all avatars. As I said before in the avatar article, only the Purna avatars of Narasimha, Rama and Krishna are worshipped today. There are hardly any temples to Rama and practically all avatar temples dedicated to Krishna as He is the highest kind of avatar. He knew he was God and exhibited God's power. We don't worship Parushrama as he is a secondary avatar nor do we worship Vishnu's earlier avatars. (see avatar article. Your other views are the views of the Smartas. We belive that God is the only Guru and it is up to us and HIs grace to obtain God although we respect enlightened saints/teachers. Also, the Brahma sutras refuted Buddhism; see http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-2-insy.html
Best, Raj2004 14:07, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which instant messaging program do you use most often? I promised you a discussion, remember? :) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear Sam,
I have had the high honour of being nominated as your cronie by your good friend Adraeus.
I accept the nomination in all humility.
Vincent 03:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sam, I know you care a lot about the distinction "God" vs. "god". But you are going a bit too far now. "Horned God" is usually capitalized, not because he is considered Singular, but, just like "United States" is not spelled "united states", because you have particular states in mind, "Horned God" is capitalized, because the name refers to a particular god, not just any random god who happens to have horns. Look at http://www.google.com/search?q=%22horned+god%22 and see how many instances of "Horned god" you can find. Please move it back. dab (ᛏ ) 13:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's simple, Sam. I don't think admins should abuse their powers, even if they think what they are doing will gain approval. I especially think they shouldn't do it on pages they are involved in disputes over. Essentially, I do not feel there should be a privileged class here. Its existence has a great deal to do with the rot of this place. But given that we do have them, I think their powers should be extremely circumscribed, and they should know that they are. Dr Zen 02:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Happy New Year, Sam I added more changes to help outsiders better understand Hinduism in the article Hinduism. Here's some of the added language: Contemporary Hinduism is now divided into four major divisions, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism. Just as Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same one God (eg., Yahweh, and Allah for example) but differ in their conceptions of Him, Hindus all believe in one God but differ in their conceptions. The two primary form of differences are between the two monotheistic religions of Vaishnavism which conceives God as Vishnu and Shaivism, which conceives God as Shiva. Other minor forms are aspects of Vishnu or Shiva; see Smartism for more information. I hope this clarifies once and for all that Hindus primarily worship the supreme personal God in form of Vishnu and Shiva. The Divine Mother or Shakti is simply God's Power personified and is not separate. Raj2004 02:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Sam, God is Brahman. Theistic denominations of Saivism and Vaishnavism call Nirguna Brahman Parasiva and Mahavishnu. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been helped personally very much by God's love. We all pray differently but the result is same. There is a God and we must open ourselves to God's grace. Vedantists call God Brahman as you are correct. For Saivites and Vaishnvaites respectively, the personal God is Brahman. Raj2004 11:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also people will approach God differently and in their own way. What matters is faith and belief. Just for curiousity, is there any particular prayer you pray? Is it the Lord's prayer or a Hindu prayer? I myself have been chanting Vishnu sahasranama every day since March and it has been a tremendous source of strength. Raj2004 11:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sam, here's an inspirational story of God's grace for the New Year. http://www.ashram.org/satsang_eng/ladymartin.html Again, have faith and belief in God, no matter what form or even you don't believe in God has no form at all. Even the most theistic Vaishnavites and Shaivites believe God has no form but use the form to concentrate. Raj2004 12:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, Sam, a better term is panentheism or pantheism. In panenethesim, the universe is part of the body of God and God is pervading everywhere. In panetheism, the universe is God. Hindus learn more through panenthesm. That's why in Hinduism, Vishnu is called the All-pervading One. I don't know if you know the story of the avatar of Narasimha. In it, the evil king asks his son where your God is. Prahlad says everywhere. The king then wants Prahald to worship him but he refuses. The king says I will kill you and let's see if your God is everwhere. Then Narasimha appears. Raj2004 12:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Very interesting. Also, I am convinced even geogically, a great flood did happen, perhaps 10,000 years ago after the end of the last Ice age. Also, I see a similarity between Manu and man. Perhaps man term derived from Manu. Raj2004 13:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the indo-european language group is very ancient, with many cognates. The flood was when the straits of gibralter broke, and the mediteranean flooded, I think. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 13:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm Neigel again. After I knew you're 'in favour of Vincent (I'm his formal advocate) in the very problematic Talk:Charles Darwin, I want you to cooperate in the Mediation process that I'm accelerating. I know you're not a popular user here (specially thanks your friend Adraeus), but we need (properly, Vincent needs) your help, Sam. Cheers -- Neigel von Teighen 18:40, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please delete Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mbecker since it is invalid. — マイケル ₪ 06:17, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
Can I put ebooks (possibly illegal) links in my wikipedia user pages? - Sridhar 08:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No problem, Sam and thanks. Happy New Year to you and your family as well. There is a common perception that Vishnu and Shiva as aspects of a personal supreme God is absent in the Vedas. That's not true. The Rudram, a Vedic hymn, decribes Rudra, an earlier aspect of Siva as Brahman. Yes, there are less Vedic hymns to those aspects of God. I believe religion evolves like any cultural thing. Even in the Bible, Yahweh was first conceived as a tribal god before he was conceived as the God of all. I think there was more emphasis on deva worship as ritual sacrifices were more in use and the need to obtain material things. That changed as Krishna in the Gita discouraged elaborate sacrifices and said those who worshipped devas instead of Him as God were of limited understanding. Also He encouraged that God only wants love and one does not need elaborate rituals to attain Him. Relevant verses from Gita: O Arjuna, even those devotees who worship other lesser deities (e.g., Devas, for example) with faith, they also worship Me, but in an improper way because I am the Supreme Being. I alone am the enjoyer of all sacrificial services (Seva, Yajna) and Lord of the universe." (Gita: 9:23) These are relevant verses from the Gita:
Chapter 9, Verse 23. Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true understanding.
Chapter 9, Verse 24. I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down. Chapter 9, Verse 25. Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods devas; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.
Finally, this verse from Gita discouragd sacrifices;
If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. 9:26
Also I have created new articles on Nayanars, sixty-three saints dedicated to worship of Shiva, Kanapa, and the famed Kalahasti temple. Enjoy reading!
Raj2004 23:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've been trying to learn how to better work with this community, and the list of links you left in my talk page was extremely helpful. I expect I'll be referring to it for most of my stay here. Many thanks for helping out a wayward newbie! Arisna 23:42, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Vaishnavites' cite Rig Veda 1.22.20, for the supremacy of Vishnu, which states, "As the blazing sun pervades the entire sky like an eye fixed in the heavens, so the divine seers eternally perceive that supreme abode of Vishnu." Also, the foreword of P. Sankaranarayan's translation of Vishnu sahasranama, Bhavan's Book University, cites Rig Veda V.I.15b.3, for the importance of chanting Vishnu's name by stating, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization." Raj2004 23:44, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sam, may God be with you as well as your family. Let's pray for the victims of the tsunami. Raj2004 00:28, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have pic of the day template in my userpage. Why it is not getting updated? - Sridhar 07:02, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
For some reason, I haven't been able to center the SACN template the way most other templates are, despite serious attempts at copying the centering code from other (centered) templates. Help? Thanks in advance, Nightstallion 21:19, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
AMA Member Advocate,
There's a poll currently in the AMA Homepage about making a new AMA Coordinator election. Please, cast your vote there (though it's not mandatory). Any comments you have about this, write it on the AMA Homepage talk page. Cheers, -- Neigel von Teighen 18:43, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hey, Sam how is it going? As AMA Coordinator I am requesting that suggestions be placed on Wikipedia:AMA Membership Meeting plans for our first membership meeting, to be held in the near future, (hopefully before any election occurs.) Since we have never had any kind of "official" meeting we need to discuss how this will occur (i.e. Wiki pages or IRC channel), how it will be structured (i.e. meeting agenda) and if there will be any "chair" to supervise the meeting and meeting "secretary" to write up minutes or keep some kind of official record of what transpires. Thanks in advance for your input and for all your continued work as an advocate. — © Alex756 20:09, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I found some shocking profanity & arrogant nastiness on the deist/deism page & I am so new at this, I don't know how to fix it, or what to do. I couldn't edit it because the bad parts didn't show up in the code. I don't know what to do, I only just logged in for the first time. thank you for helping & for welcoming me. I use this sight every day for educational purposes & this was the first time I'd seen a mistake so you guys are doing excellent work. Thanks sabbastian
Sam, thanks for your help on Ishta Deva. I have written an article a while back on Karma in Hinduism and how it is different from Buddhism and Jainism. Please feel free to take a look at it. Raj2004 11:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) For your info, this is Swami Sivananda's defintion of a guru. I doubt Sathya Sai Baba remotely fits this category. "The guru is God himself manifesting in a personal form to guide the aspirant. Grace of God takes the form of the guru. To see the guru is to see God. The guru is united with God. He inspires devotion in others and his presence purifies all. The guru is verily a link between the individual and the immortal. He is a being who has raised himself from this to That, and thus has free and unhampered access into both realms. He stands, as it were, upon the threshold of immortality; and, bending down he raises the struggling individuals with one hand, while with the other he lifts them up into the imperium of everlasting joy and infinite truth-consciousness. The true guru is Brahman himself. He is an ocean of bliss, knowledge and mercy. He is the captain of your soul, the fountain of joy. He removes all your troubles, sorrows and obstacles. He shows you the right divine path and tears your veil of ignorance. He makes you immortal and divine, transmuting your lower, diabolical nature. He gives you the rope of knowledge, and takes you up when you are drowning in this ocean of births and deaths. Do not consider him to be only a man, for, if you do, you are a beast. Worship your guru and bow to him with reverence. Guru is God. A word from him is a word from God. He need not teach anything. Even his presence or company is elevating, inspiring and stirring, his very company being self-illumination. Living in his company is spiritual education. Read the Granth-Saheb (the holy scripture of the Sikh religion). You will come to know the greatness of the guru. Man can learn only from man, and hence God teaches through a human body. In your guru, you have your human ideal of perfection, the pattern into which you wish to mould yourself. Your mind will readily be convinced that such a great soul is fit to be worshipped and revered. Guru is the door to liberation, the gateway to the transcendental truth-consciousness. But, it is the aspirant that has to enter through it. The guru is a help, but the actual task of practical spiritual practice falls on the aspirant himself. The guru's tender smile radiates light, bliss, joy, knowledge, peace. He is a blessing to suffering humanity. Whatever he says is Upanishadic teaching. The guru knows the spiritual path. He knows the pitfalls and snares on the way. He gives timely warning to his students. He showers his grace on their heads. All agonies, miseries, tribulations, taints of worldliness, etc., vanish in his presence."
As I said before, such case is limited in contemporary times. Examples of such God-realized gurus include Ramakrishna and Raghavendra Swami.
Raj2004 12:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That's true, Sam and thanks. even Hindus don't worship all avatars. As I said before in the avatar article, only the Purna avatars of Narasimha, Rama and Krishna are worshipped today. There are hardly any temples to Rama and practically all avatar temples dedicated to Krishna as He is the highest kind of avatar. He knew he was God and exhibited God's power. We don't worship Parushrama as he is a secondary avatar nor do we worship Vishnu's earlier avatars. (see avatar article. Your other views are the views of the Smartas. We belive that God is the only Guru and it is up to us and HIs grace to obtain God although we respect enlightened saints/teachers. Also, the Brahma sutras refuted Buddhism; see http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-2-insy.html
Best, Raj2004 14:07, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which instant messaging program do you use most often? I promised you a discussion, remember? :) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear Sam,
I have had the high honour of being nominated as your cronie by your good friend Adraeus.
I accept the nomination in all humility.
Vincent 03:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)