Whilst there appears to be consensus that players can be identified as being from Catalonia ("a Spanish footballer from Catalonia") I do not see any such consensus to indicate actual nationality ("a Catalonian footballer that plays for Spain"). As such, unless you can provide such consensus (it certainly doesn't exist on Guardiola's talk page) I would suggest self-reverting those latest edits. Thank you, Black Kite (talk) 09:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

At no time have I put the Catalan nationality. I have put that he is a Catalan person from Spain. It's a fact. I did not redirect to the Catalonia page, but to the Catalans page. Catalan from Spain. Panenkazo ( talk) 10:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Maybe I'm explaining myself wrong, but at no time have I suggested that someone has Catalan nationality. I have put that he is a Catalan person from Spain. It's a fact. it's not debatable... I'm not saying that anyone has a nationality other than Spanish. Could you clarify that? Panenkazo ( talk) 11:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

EXAMPLE: Salvador Dalí is a Catalan person from Spain. Panenkazo ( talk) 11:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Black Kite: Please, give me your opinion of this: Talk:Salvador Dalí#Catalan person in the lead Panenkazo ( talk) 11:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

In your edit reason here you tell me to "stop reverting" - you'll see I am not the same user that you have been having disputes with. I'm actually the user whose edits you've been upholding at other locations. I encourage you to be more careful with putting such 'warning instructions' in edit reasons unless you are sure who you're dealing with - if you're still editing in future, not being mindful of who you're blindly reverting and effectively falsely accusing someone of poor editing behaviour, could be seen as WP:casting aspersions. Kingsif ( talk) 14:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

This comment makes no sense. You know perfectly well that there is an established consensus on this issue. Different administrators (as I have attached to your Talk page) have repeatedly said that there is a consensus. You are reverting content from an admin stating your personal opinion... Your opinion doesn't matter. They are Catalan athletes regardless of whether they feel it more or less. No debate. Panenkazo ( talk) 14:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

First, my comment is not about the content, it is about you leaving a message in your edit that would only be acceptable if I was repeatedly removing indisputable information. I left this comment to tell you that I did not do that, and while I can take your message on the chin, if you do the same in future, it would be considered uncivil. Since that apparently didn't come across, I've added a civility warning to this talkpage so you understand. Don't take it the wrong way, but since that is what the message was for, and your response to it was effectively a threat, you're not helping your case.

Second, on the content, I reply below. And by the way, whether they feel it more or less absolutely does matter. We could not fairly describe someone born in Derry as British if they identify as Irish, despite it being technically correct, and nationality issues that come with wider political issues should be handled with care, not with "they were born in Barcelona so no debate". Kingsif ( talk) 15:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Kingsif: Identification or self-identification is a separate issue. (This sentence is from @ Black Kite:. Panenkazo ( talk) 15:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I mean, I'd like to see the context for that. But there's a lot of ways to respond. Kingsif ( talk) 15:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I have now seen the context: There is no doubt they are from Catalonia. In some cases, they have even represented Catalonia. However, identification is a separate issue. If you wish to start an RfC on this issue, that may be the way to go. This seems to be quite clear from Black Kite in saying that identification is an issue that due to being separate to fact of birth, should be considered separately. No further comment. Kingsif ( talk) 15:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Thank you for give me the reason. Good night. Panenkazo ( talk) 16:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

That general consensus asks for identification, and even if speaking in an admin capacity, Black Kite cannot single-handedly overrule that. As I said, I would absolutely encourage seeking local consensus (if someone born in Catalonia only publicly affiliates with Catalan institutions, without saying anything on the matter, IMO we should take that as identification) or bringing up a good source.

And, simply, we are allowed to disagree with Black Kite. Admins' opinions are not given more weight than anyone else's (on non-admin/procedural things). If you are trying to determine someone's national identity for them, that is exactly as harmful as anti-Catalan people deciding everyone from Catalonia is Spanish. It doesn't matter which way you're doing it, you're speaking over people who can speak for themselves. Catalonia at the moment is part of Spain and not everyone born there identifies as Catalan, don't label them for them. Kingsif ( talk) 15:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

You contradict yourself constantly. Your opinion is irrelevant. It is a fact that they are from Catalonia. There is no debate. You wrote it yourself in this comment. Panenkazo ( talk) 15:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

It is a fact that they are from Catalonia. There is no debate. - there are many people who could just as easily write "It is a fact that they are from Spain. There is no debate." Clearly, there is room for debate. Either you recognise that and are willing to discuss how Wikipedia presents national identity re. people from Catalonia, or you're not. I hope it's the former. Kingsif ( talk) 15:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Both things are true. They are Catalans with Spanish nationality. You know perfectly well that during certain periods of Catalonia's history it was an independent country. Catalonia is officially recognized as a nation. We are talking about a region with specific characteristics such as the region of Bavaria or the Flemish or Scottish. Panenkazo ( talk) 15:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

We can't wait for a person to say whether they feel more Catalan or Spanish in order to be able to add the term Catalan person to wikipedia. For real?.. Panenkazo ( talk) 16:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

That is what general consensus currently recommends. In the edit reason I provided at the very start, that you reverted, I suggested discussion for local consensus. You can present your impractical argument at such a discussion, if you take up the offer of having one. Kingsif ( talk) 16:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Let's try to re-centre this discussion. We're not debating the status of Catalan as a nationality because we know we both understand that. We're debating how this should be presented on Wikipedia. Currently, I believe you are applying consensus too broadly. And I am not against doing that, as long as it can be procedurally supported - given such edits are often contested. It would be beneficial to present arguments on why you think we should effectively broaden the scope of the general consensus, instead of just saying it's not up for debate. Kingsif ( talk) 16:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Kingsif: Do you have a proposal to reach a consensus? Panenkazo ( talk) 16:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I think that despite having different arguments, we are not that far from the solution. Panenkazo ( talk) 16:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Look, I would suggest having a discussion at the talkpage of the relevant article to establish a local consensus. It seems you have been including the line in other articles where it isn't supported by a source showing personal identification, so you may want to start a new RfC for Wikipedia consensus. Either way, a discussion, open to everyone, in which arguments are focused on how the information should be presented on Wikipedia and why you think that, should take place. If nothing else, your haste of edits on the matter has attracted a fair amount of negative attention in a short space of time, and gaining a consensus on the matter will benefit you in applying your edits without that. Kingsif ( talk) 22:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Kingsif: Here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalonia? It is a current debate. Panenkazo ( talk) 23:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Or.. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football Panenkazo ( talk) 23:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

• Below moved from my talkpage, where the topic was inappropriately moved:

Hello Kingsif, I have been notified that you have reverted edits like this. REFRAIN from reverting back again with consensus described by administrators. I leave you the evidence: [1], [2] and [3]. Panenkazo ( talk) 14:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I am the guy adding that content elsewhere; I reverted it at one location because general consensus (which the admins refer to) requires self-identification. Local consensus can override that, but it doesn't appear to at that article. Admins have been upholding your - and my - edits where they meet general consensus, which that article doesn't have. Do not dare threaten me again over a single, polite, supported edit. Kingsif ( talk) 14:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Identification or self-identification is a separate issue. (This sentence is from @ Black Kite:) Panenkazo ( talk) 15:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

• Also pinging the admins referred to @ Black Kite and Ad Orientem:, as the user only seems to listen to admins, in the hopes they will advise on not having such a battleground attitude. Kingsif ( talk) 14:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ Kingsif See this parallel discussion. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 15:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

  I see there is more background here than I anticipated. Almost certainly needs a discussion. Thanks. Kingsif ( talk) 15:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Are you also using an IP address to edit which appears to be the same type of editing as yours, about inserting "from Catalonia" in a handful of articles as well as under your username? Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 21:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, it was unintentional. I thought I was signed in on my mobile device. The moment I saw that I was editing with the session closed I started again. It was a mistake. Panenkazo ( talk) 21:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello. I would just like to remind you to be more conservative when adding the {{ Current sports transaction}} template to articles, such as you did on Nico Williams. This template is reserved for when transfers are really imminent, and it's reported by reputable sources. Mere transfer rumours, such as we are seeing now with Nico Williams, are not enough to warrant the addition of this template on his article. Happy editing! Paul Vaurie ( talk) 22:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Paul Vaurie: You are in the wrong way. It's considered an inminent transfer. See what FC Barcelona president says about Nico: [4] and [5]. Panenkazo ( talk) 22:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Please, self revert your edit. Your opinion is not relevant. What President of FC Barcelona says yes it's relevant.. Panenkazo ( talk) 22:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello Panenkazo. No, this is not indicate of an "imminent transfer" whatsoever. Joan Laporta making comments doesn't mean that the club has formulated an offer, that Athletic Club has accepted one and that Williams has agreed to personal terms. There is a much higher threshold for what an imminent transfer is. Pure rumours and transfer talk are not enough. This threshold is necessary, because otherwise, almost every single player could have this template on their article during the summer— there are so many transfer rumors on the Internet. Please respect the status quo and do not spam this template on Wikipedia. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 22:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Your opinion is not relevant → WP:CIVILITY. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 22:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, you'r opinion is not valid. References are very clear. Panenkazo ( talk) 22:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Paul Vaurie: Your arguments make no sense. The president of FC Barcelona has said that they have the money to sign Nico Williams. No agreement with Athletic is required. A clause payment must be made. Some references stated that this will happen in a few days. If you don't revert your edit, i will post in administrators notice board. Panenkazo ( talk) 22:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Paul Vaurie: Your problem is that you are not informed at all. FC Barcelona will not negotiate with Athletic Club for the signing of Nico Williams. WILL PAY THE TERMINATION CLAUSE OF 58 MILLION. You can do it at any time. You don't need to negotiate with Athletic. Only with the player.. Numerous references say that the deal is already done. FC Barcelona can pay the termination clause at any time. Stop making these comments when you don't have enough knowledge. Panenkazo ( talk) 22:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC) reply