![]() | This page was nominated for deletion on 28 November 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Please start a new sub-section with your name and post your thoughts.
There is actually such a test :) The Genographic Project.
I am not sure I qualify for the Nationality Quiz -- I am proud of my country (Turkey) and heritage and culture and so forth. I don't feel sorry for our neighbors, and expect that they also possess a similarly proud self-image. Liking and being interested in your background does not necessarily have to mean disliking others'. Culture does not have patents issued and does not follow along genetic lines. Such a hypothetical test showing that I was not genetically a descendant of those that I descend from culturally would not bother me one bit.
Your nationality quiz reminds me of the flame-wars that sometimes erupt around Turkish/Greek/whatever coffee. We can both drink it, be proud of it, and call the rest of the coffees dishwater. :) The enjoyment of that particular coffee should not be lessened because someone else in the neighboring country likes the same. Regards. Free smyrnan 08:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Got my results back! Western Europe?!?!?! I am going to have to stop defending the Eastern Roman Empire. :) -- Free smyrnan 06:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I go to my shrink (and if I have not one, I find one immediately!), because I have a serious identity problem! My personality looks divided and I don't know who I am! Because of the complexity of my case, my shrink goes to a shrink of his own and gets medication! His only priority now is to get rid of me. This bloody bastard (me!) has ruined his life. He is so confused and worried that he starts searching his own ancestors. When he finds out that he is a 100% X, he calms down and decides to get rid of this annoying patient once for ever. So, one day, he tells me that I have to re-invent my "inner self". I ask him what is that? He substantiates his proposal, and argues that the solution to my problem is the reconciliation of my "barbarian" past with my "civilized" present. And he underscores that, when I achieve this goal, I will also get rid of the above etiquettes.
When I leave from the shrink's office, I believe that this man does not know his job. But, when I get home, I start thinking: Can he be right? And I then try to find a way to implement his proposal and to re-unite my divided "inner self". I first think to go to the X versus Y Survivor program, but I then decide that this is a bad idea. I search the web and find an exchange program for university students (we make the assuption that I am still a university student) between the W and the Y country. Because of the hostility between the two states this program is inactive, but not officially cancelled. So, I decide to revive it filing an application. Unfortunately, the response from the bureau responsible for the program is negative, because there is no other application from the other country, so as to make the exchange. I feel disappointed, but a few days later, a lady from the bureau calls me, in order to inform me that a miracle happened: a student from the Y country filed an application, when she found out that her ancestors were coming from my country! She went to a shrink who told her that she should re-invent her "inner self". I said that I could not believe that, and that these things can't happen. After a month, I prepare my buggages and travel to the city A (which is called B by my supposed countrymen) of Y.
I stay in the city A (or B) for a year. What happens during this period of time? I make friends, have good time and enjoy myself. And the most important: I realize that my friends are civilized. Returning to my country, I am full of thoughts. I am wondering what is the necessity of etiquettes, and I realize that my staying in the X country led to their demise. I then think about the essence of national identity? Is there such a thind, and if yes what does this entail? The purity of blood? The cultural background? The social and family environment? Unfortunately, I realize that I cannot give an answer; maybe all these things or maybe none of these things. And what is my national identity? Does it really matter to give an answer? I touch the ground of the X country whicn is "my country", but at the same time I know that I have friends and ancestors in the Y country, who are "my friends and my ancestors".
After a year, I return to the X country invited by one of these friends. And I have such a nice time in the A (or B) city! One evening my friend introduces me to a girl, a friend of his. When we go to a bar in order to have a drink, the girl turns to me and asks me: "Do you want me to tell you a strange story?" "I'm all ears for strange stories!" I answer. "Well, as you know I am from here and I'm proud for my country. As a matter of fact, I was thinking that you in X are uncivilized and inferior to us. But one day, something crazy happened: I learned that my ancestors come from Y, your country. I was shocked! I even went to a shrink! A shrink who told me to re-invent my "inner self". Nonsence, I thought! But then I realized that he was right, and I decided to come to your country. I found an exchange program, which unfortunately was inactive, but, as a mirracle, a X student filed an application for similar reasons: he found that his ancestors were Ys! And I came to your country and made friends. I even learned your language. And I no more think that you are uncivilized. And I am now looking in your eyes and speaking to you. And I also think that you know who this student from X is. Don't you?" But I am no more listening to words; while she is speaking, the only thing I can think is that she has beautiful eyes ...-- Yannismarou 09:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Hah, that would make a great art film. - Francis Tyers · 16:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean I'm Greek?! - Francis Tyers · 14:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Nationality you mean. Ethnicities surely predate our great-great-grandfathers. Niko Silver 14:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
But people want to be better than others. When they can't do that on their own, they group. And they don't only group in rival nations. They also do in religions, in social classes, in sport teams in whatever they can find. They just have to become better. And that's what makes us progress. Niko Silver 01:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I have relatives who speak the language of tribe X, but it turns out, long after swearing my allegiance to tribe X, that they're really members of tribe Y, and only speak language X because until 30 years ago there were only about 5 language Y speakers in the whole of country Z where we all now happily live, us and them, and those we intermarried with, and most everyone in the family being a polyglot professional linguist, they simply adopted language X, while in country Z, as they already spoke X fluently, and married language Xers, as all 5 of the language Yers in country Z were of the same gender and same-sex marriage was illegal at that time, and there were pleny of other language Xers of the correct gender available in country Z.
So, I, being human, did what any contorted resident of country Z without medical insurance would do upon learning their whole life was a lie, when they couldn't afford a shrink, and they weren't really in any way related to anyone of country X, a much richer country full of people who could afford shrinks, and some who actually were shrinks, although I had country X relations by my country Y relations marrying folks of country X transplanted to country Z, I simply immediately switched allegiances to tribe Y.
Am I ashamed to the very roots of my being for this instantaneous switcheroo of loyalties? Nope, because once the tribe has spoken I must immediately leave tribe X and return to the real reality.
KP Botany 18:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If I forward this to your broker, you won't be able to afford insurance no matter what you pay. Still decrypting and laughing. I'll add questions in a helpless attempt to make you continue this: WTF is a botanologist doing in this page? And WTF is being a professional polyglot linguist have to do with anything? (yes, you win the car) :-) Niko Silver 23:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, but of course, the impact is yet another invention of the oldest casserole! Apart from the unilaterally created multi-soups, we have the voluntarily created multi-soups. The latter, keep those different letters within different segments of the big soups, forming smaller single-letter soups within the big one, thereby maintaining the necessary environment for those who cannot function within a multi-soup, while giving them the advantages of a big soup. These soups have somewhat controlled diversity through their single-letter sub-soups, yet one can enjoy the whole mix, if capable. That's just an experiment multi-single-letter-soup, but it may actually work. Niko Silver 01:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Good laugh, but ultimately it is a big problem on Wikipedia, and I don't see, given Wikipedia's design, any end to the issue, under the current structure, and I'm not thrilled with methods that change the current structure. "Anyone can edit" is the biggest weapon thrown at detractors of the concept that a group of volunteers can create something usable, ultimately, imo, it will be its biggest asset in a world where static-information sources are fast becoming obsolete.
So, what to do about competing natiolistic claims to articles that create chaos on Wikipedia, but are, after all, part of being human? KP Botany 01:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
When we come down to the (biased?) aphorism that all ethnic groups are vastly mixed, we dare explore the reasons for paradoxical human behavior after the mix. That behavior is considered incompatible (and in extreme examples a form of treason) with the behavior of the ancestors of the newly aquired members to that group. This observation raises the question: "Why the hell would people betray their own, and support their foe?"
The answer is simpler than expected: Sets of values. The newly recruited often find need to identify as such due to personal likings or dislikings. Sometimes they are forced by the circumstances and feared of the consequences. The result is always the same: The next generation has much less attachment to the old status, and the next even less, and so on. Assimilation produces new followers, possibly unaware of their past.
These followers adhere to the new set of values, because they grew up with it, and anything else seems uncommon, and rejected by their peers (stereotypes). However, this adherence is biased, simply because (newly recruited or assimilated or not) those followers tend to explore only their own (new?) sets of values and disregard exploring the others. Propaganda and reverse propaganda also play an important role in the enhancement of the positive elements of one's culture, and negative elements of the other cultures. Hence, their judgement is biased by their limited or even twisted knowledge. So people's minds and opinions are vastly more compatible to their own experiences, rather than to their "genes", to the extent of making wars in order to maintain or expand those values, sometimes even against their own ancestors' sons!
Had they been aware of the merits of the other cultures, and of the constructive criticism on their own culture, then they would be more capable of filtering the elements of those cultures to produce their own set. We are terribly far from that, and even if information was universally available, we still don't know how and if it would be used positively as described. Recent examples of educated people, like Orhan Pamuk's real reasons for the nobel prize, (forgive my unilateral example, I happen to be a victim of the afore mentioned selective information), are indeed positive steps, but then again, too microscopically few, and very well burried from the rest, instead of being exemplified (cite to prove me wrong, I will be pleased).
A wise person, cannot but foresee that indeed such selective information practices only make their own group less susceptible to positive change. That would definitely be a disadvantage in the evolution of this group's value system, and detrimental for their society in general. Therefore, the true patriot, is the one who tries not only to learn the merits of other cultures and their constructive criticism on his own, but also to even try to force this information among his own, in order to help this value system evolution process, knowing that he may be misjudged, knowing that he may be even prosecuted, and knowing that no matter how hard the information push attempt is, most of his compatriots will probably ignore it due to their pre-programmed biases.
Even after writing all that, I admit being the least capable person on earth for practicing it. :-( Niko Silver 13:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that you mostly speak about social, cultural and nationalist stereotypes. These stereotypes go from one generation to the other, and, despite the differentiations that you mention, some powerful stereotypes are common to all generations. Propaganda is not necessary, so as the stereotypes to survive. The dynamics of a society is enough. I have in mind examples of my own country: When a building hosting handicapped persons was decided to be created in the X region, the whole population of the region (young, middle-aged, older, men, women) reacted. This is a reaction caused by a social stereotype. But national stereotypes work the same way. For instance, an English stereotype is that they don't want to be called French (me neither! I hope that a French friend of mine does not read these lines!). And the stereotypes are so inherently printed in the sub-conscious that it is very very difficult to fight them. Some individuals achieve to go beyond them, but societies as a whole are very susceptible to their influence. I also agree that the best medication against stereotypes is education and information. Open-minded people are the best antidote against them. But I don't have in mind many of this kind! I tend to believe that, unfortunately, the majority of people does not want to think! They believe it is too tiring!-- Yannismarou 08:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Are there any more ideas, or shall I wrap this all up and create an essay? Niko Silver 00:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Niko, but this "nationality quiz" is completely unrealistic. First of all, you don't need a "DNA ancestry identifier device" to discover if you are really Greek or English (or whatever). Noone is 100% Greek or 100% English. But I do consider that nationality is formed not from "culture", but from race, biological ancestry and blood. A Nation is its People (Λαος), and the People are formed from tribes, from racial types. Culture, which is used to define a Nation, comes from Race. Someone who is not of Greek ancestry and blood, cannot act as a Greek. This is why differences between Nations exist. Germans are organised, Greek are (considered to be) zamanfou. If you want to find if you are Greek, you don't need a "DNA ancestry identifier device", you just have to study the Greek racial type. If you belong to the Greek racial type, you have a majority of Greek blood. You can be 90% or 60% Greek, as I said nobody is 100% Greek. I used to have an essay, by David Lane, in my userpage called "Who is White?". I think he says it all for me. Mitsos 14:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I 'm bored and I 'm not going to read your comments above (lol), so can you please explain to me why you think that I 'm wrong? "Do you dispute the fact that the son of a Janissary can attack Greeks? Do you dispute the fact that if I adopt a little baby Turk, I can make him a Greek ultra-nationalist" You can make a Turkish boy (of Turkish blood, because most "Turks" today have Greek blood) a Greek ultra-nationalist, but he won't act as a Greek. He will think that he is Greek, and he will be proud about that, but he will be different. P.S.: Yannismarou told me this nationality quiz will make me think. In fact, it only made me think how ignorant people are about certain things (I don't mean just you Niko) and how influenced they are from the ZOG's media. Cheers Mitsos 12:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I saw above that you and Yanissmarou (οπως και χιλιαδες αλλοι νεοελληνες) watched the the TV show Yabanci Damat. I will only say this: ΤΑ ΣΥΝΟΡΑ ΤΗΣ ΑΓΑΠΗΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΣΤΗΝ ΚΥΡΗΝΕΙΑ! Mitsos 18:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Mitsos...your attitude is scary. It is exactly this kind of "racist" Hellenism....which has made it so difficult for me to bond with a lot of Greeks...in general (and I am a very multi-culti worldy person...who really loves to "dive into" cultures, languages..etc). There is this really scary-ugly side of modern Greek nationalism...that really pops up with this "Greek racial type" business! It gets even scarier when some dumb assed hillbillies from Taigetos or Pindus...(having been educated and convinced that they are the "prime" specimens of this supposed "Greek racial type" and blood heirs of Greek greatness) try to snub you...as if they're somehow still a "Barbarian" foreigner....and they're all...descendants of Aristotle and Archimedes...of course....HA..HA..HA!
There was a time...when I'd just had ENOUGH and before I distanced myself from that crowd...I made my point. In NO department was I inferior. In fact...we were very similar...the big difference being...that instead of hearding goats and sheep...our ancestors up north...hearded cows and sheep. Oh..yes..I forgot to add...our coastline isn't as long...so we had fewer fishermen. Gospe 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I see now. I'd just like to know how Mitsos would "classify" someone like Fatima Whitbread! Being half-Greek and also half-Turkish...Cypriot on both "sides"...YET...raised in the UK...as a "Britisher" and a well known figure in the UK sports world. From what I've read...although her background IS Cypriot...she is British...through and through! Is she "faking" it? for the fame and glory? Is she an "English-British" Crypto-Kypria?
Gospe
18:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I just found this...and thought it would be fitting to insert it:
"Know Thyself
Greeks' contemporary self-image is built upon a series of myths. The myth of continuity. The myth of the racial and cultural superiority of our ancestors (and, thanks to continuity, our own). The myth of being special. The myth of racial and religious purity. The myth of the genius of the Greek race.
The existence of these myths provokes certain predictable reactions. Thus, my typical compatriot, while proud to be Greek (95 percent, according to polls) will abuse and censure his countrymen at the slightest provocation. And this, naturally, because they fail to live up to the expectations and the demands created by the myths.
This explains why we're simultaneously the greatest eulogizers and the worst critics of ourselves. Depending on our point of view (and on the moment), we either denigrate Greeks or sing their praises. (In the former case we usually refer to them as "Romious"). Naturally, both attitudes are wrong. Instead of applauding or cursing, it would be better to stop, and think. Calmly, and rationally. (But I forget myself. Rationality is also a Western, imported Evil for our Helleno-centric intelligentsia. So much for Aristotle!)" Gospe 06:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess because I've spent a lot of time with Greeks and then after I read this...I thought of Mitsos and his statements...which are so passe...among the younger Greeks and so true for a lot of the older generation. So there's this huge divide, generational gap...between the youth and their parents-grandparents. At least that's been my observation. It's like a quiet social revolution...and ... my impression is that everything "happend" in about 20 years' time. And the change has been huge. The best way to gauge this is to talk to Greeks who left the country a few decades ago...and really...a lot of these people are cultural relics. I can see how they'd feel out of place in the new European Greece. As far as Greeks being either the biggest critics or the greatest eulogizers of their own kind...I've seen that too...but again...the younger generation seems to have more common sense in those matters. Also...Greeks don't "keep things in". Whatever's on their mind...comes right out..so everything seems magnified...love, hate, acceptance, rejection...and it all seems...much better or worse...than it really is.
Also...this mention of rationality being alien to Greeks made me laugh....for I often found that to be true...in my conversations with the older generation...2+2 didn't always come to 4. I used to think it was all the booze & dope... and the partying that fried these guys' brains out (this was a bunch of party animals)...but then I read the statement...above...and started laughing. I guess... a totally new Greek society is emerging. It's hard to tell how it's going to evolve...with all the different influences and geopolitical reality in the region. Gospe 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not know for myself (since I'm not emotionally bound like that), but I'll give several examples from former Yugoslavia: The founder of the first organized Croat political party, the Croatian Party of Rights, Ante Starčević had a Serb mother. Yet despite that he became a fierce croat nationalist, was proclaimed Pater Chrobatiae et Pater Chrobatorum or "The Father of the Croatian nation". Aside from his side-by-side anti-semitism, he shared a very deeply and strongly entrenched anti-serbian sentiment. The second man to Ante was Josip Frank, a Jew that converted to Catholicism and became one of the most fiery contemporary Croat nationalists. Frank supported Ante's words how the Jewish people were an inferior breed (and he himself purged of that thing by accepting superior Croatdom) and also advocated for assimilation of the lower nations to the superior Croat master race, explaining it as the only possible solution to their "problems". Starcevic's ideology would remain for 150 years representing the extreme nationalist cheek of Croatia to this very day, which culminated several decades after his death with his heritage's formation of the Ustaše, the greatest "native" genocidist group the Balkans have ever seen, causing indirect, direct or supportive deaths of over one million "non-aryans", belonging to the lower races not fit for the Super Human and political opponents standing on the way of the Axis machinery, amongst whom the greatest part were Serbs. Shockingly enough, Starcevic's successor and the Leader of the Ustashas, Ante Pavelić has Serbian origin on his mother's side (grandmother?).
A similar grotesque is sitting today as I write this in Hague. His name is Vojislav Šešelj. The man, despite being a very pious Orthodox Serb, is an ethnic Croat (or at least of direct Croat descent). Ever since 1990 he has become the greatest Serbian nationalist there has ever been, calling for xenophobia and spreading hate speechs, particularly against the Croats. He launched a giant ultra-nationalist mechanism, a war machine that haunts the largest number of Serbia's voters today and went beyond the limits of extreme, up to almost direct involvement in atrocities against Croats in Vojvodina and eastern Croatia. Seselj, while acting like an uneducated monstrosity that is funneled not by the actual sense of Serbdom, but by enormous hatred towards nations (Croats, Albanians, Americans) & organizations (Roman Catholic Church) that have had at any point in the history done something bad to any Serb.. the alleged "enemies of the Serb people"; was AFAIC the generation student of Sarajevo and one of the most educated men in SFRY... Just like a great genius once said over 80 years ago - this can be applied to Seselj's emotional terror - "[..]enough hatred, so enough that if it would be transformed into electricity, it would be enough to light whole cities of the globe". When Vojislav S. himself in detail discovered that he's an ethnic Croat - he went to his ancient homeland in mid-western Herzegovina, filming the very Orthodox church in which he was baptized and then spreading the word of hatred & terror amongst his local "ethnic" (not national) countrymen. -- PaxEquilibrium 20:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. Ante Pavelić was Serbian???? Complete nonsense. Mitsos 13:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Bullshit. No, Šešelj hasn't Croatian roots. These are all bullshit. Have you got a source for all that????????? Mitsos 13:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The last name Seselj can be found among both Croats and Serbs...the reason being that the name is a Vlah name (nomadic Vlaho-Aroumanians populated huge areas of the Balkans...especially southern Serbia which was referred to as "The Old Vlahia", eastern Herzegovina and the Dalmatian hinterland bordering on neighbouring Bosnia Herzegovina). Vlahs in these parts were mostly assimilated by Serbs but...also by Croats...Albanians...and as you all must know...in huge numbers...by Greeks.
Throughout the Balkans...but especially in Bosnia Herzegovina...we find family names of Vlah origin: Dodik...Tintor...Kragulj...Zuzulj...Zezelj...
We also have a mountain called Vlasic (best skiing in the region)....in Greek it would be something like "Vlahika"....a Vlah cheese...called "Vlaski Sir" and high mountain settlements which are referred to as "katuni" high above the city of Travnik! There are no Vlah speaking communities left...as they have been assimilated into the various regional ethnicities!
Of course...calling someone a Vlah...well...like in Greece...is a quasi insult...especially if you are a proud Serb or Croat...have no idea of what a Vlah is...have no immediate connection to the culture, people, language of your ancestors...and like Seselj...are just a crazy MF who claims to be a Serb. 21:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Gospe 05:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
you gave me quite an amusement Niko with this nationality tester... but this is the reason why here at the Balkans you should not take your high school history textbooks for granted! i'm not talking about yours in particular, but anyones, nowadays... i am from Macedonia (or Skopia as you hare it more frequently) and i'm going through this process... i find out that what i learned in high school about history especially Balkan, and our national history is not quite true... But than again I know that what Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs learn in their history is as wrong as our versions... Therefore i end up in this unwanted dilemma: do I embrace the nationalistic tendations in history that my own country is propagating, which i know that are false in order to preserve national identity against neighboring propaganda, or do i go on my own and find my own realistic truth...
hope u can help me with this dilemma, since i see you are experiencing similar ideas, and yet you are on the "other side"...
Martin taleski 02:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've spent a bit of time reading my old political economy texts...and really...the birth of modern ethnic nationalism...coincides with the birth of mercantilism...and the mercantilist state. Ethnic and cultural identities always existed...people always had their own communities...languages...patois....dialects...whatever....but a lot of what we identify with as "national" today...is "manufactured" by a bourgeois class. I know I sound like some old...lost Marxist soul...but really...economic and technological revolutions...including globalization...internet....are revolutionizing our sense of self....our identities...communities...etc. Just yesterday...while planning a trip...I came across this website from the Pontic Black Sea region of Turkey www.ocena.info....and here they were...FINALLY...after almost a century of forced estrangement...Pontic Greek speaking Moslems and Pontic Orthodox Greeks...building bridges...on the internet: sharing photos..of ancestral villages, playing their ancestral music...and really...it was so touching and also so sad....that they very forcibly estranged...for no other reason...than that a certain "class"...a powerful group of people wanted exclusive rights to a certain territory. Education and technology will really revolutionize this world...even more. I can tell my son "you're this..and this...and this"...but then the next day....he can go out...pay a couple of hundred $$$ for a DNA test...and say: "Mom...did you know we're black too"! So now...we redefine ourselves as cultural guardians...and not really as BEING the blood heirs to a people...for we're not even sure who exactly all those supposed glorious ancestors.....really were. I know they did some DNA testing on Egyptian mummies..and their DNA pretty well reflected the DNA of today's Egyptians...as well...but what about parts of the world that have been constant "bridges of humanity"...eg. the Balkans and Asia Minor....where we have "layers" upon "layers" of history, languages, peoples. Gospe 02:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What I am curious about....is who were the indigenous peoples of present day Greece and Albania. I know that northern Greece...had a lot of "traffic"...but what about the rest of the country. For example...where I originate...the indigenous population is supposed to have been an Illyrian tribe called "Japods" mixed up with Celts (perhaps that's why I'm a bit freckled and pasty white...with reddish auburn hair). When I hear of Celts...I think of the Irish...and red hair! When I hear of Illyrians...I think of Albanians and their romanized "cousins" the Vlahs. Then...there were also some Saxon settlers...as well. some of my cousins would have been "prime" picks for Hitler's Jugend. They definitely "look" more German than many Germans themselves. So...who was indigenous in Greece...before the arrival of the Hellenes...who were these "Achiei" that I've heard about from my Greek college prof? And then...if geneticists have been able to "isolate" this supposed "Slavic" gene...have they also isolated the "Hellenic" gene...the "Achiei" gene? There are so many different "looks" among the Greeks I know. Some look right out of Kurdistan...in fact...I know of a guy from Lesbos...who is a spittin' image of a Kuridsh guy...and I recall when they met. It was hilarious. The Greek guy was a bit drunk...and he looked up to the Kurd...who happens to be VERY tall...and in a drunken daze....began staring at the other guy's face...as if he were looking at a mirror! Suddenly he blurted out: "Whoooo are you? My BIG brother?"
Then...others look very Slavic...in fact...I have an acquaintances from Larissa...who look SO Slavic. The entire family...could easily pass for Poles. I could go on and on. A guy from Crete I know...looks very Egyptian...North African....yet my grocer..who is Cretan...is extremely fair...almost blonde....and many Cypriots I've met...look a bit Mid.Eastern...even Egyptian. There really seems to be no "look" except for the older generation's shortness and attire...and perhaps...the dominant brown hair...and more olive skin. I did notice a lot of "fat cheeks", round noses...meaty faces...especially in people from Arkadia. Gospe 21:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is exactly what you implied earlier....that what and how we identify ourselves...doesn't necessary reflect our "real" origins...and it doesn't have to. I agree with you...that a people develop a "look". That "look" can also bee the result of various "mixes"..and the degrees of various admixtures....and then of course...how it's finally packaged and presented. I never would have been able to notice my sister's very "East Asian" look...(although she is a white European) if I hadn't travelled the world...and looked a little deeper. You'll see her and say...well..she's just another European...and I'll point to her body's proportions..her high cheekbones...etc. Even Native Indians in North America have inquired about her ethnicity..and origin..because she really does look like a predominantly white (with a bit of Asiatic) mix. We develop looks....as well. I can "tell" a Brazilian woman. I spent my formative years there...I know the "walk" (and there is a walk)..there is a way of dressing...talking...interacting...regardless of ethnicity (and God..are they a ever an ethnic-genetic stew)! In exactly the same way you can "tell" who is Greek.
I wonder if you heard about that Moscow experiment...with genes and alcohol. Because a very high % of Eastern Europeans...have "Asian" genes...they attempted to gauge a body's reaction to alcohol...and correlate it to the presence of these genes shared by other "really" Asian peoples..eg. Japanese, Mongolian, Chinese, Native Americans. Apparently, there was a strong correlation...the presence of these genes...did affect the body's reaction to alcohol consumption. (In that department...unlike for my fellow "Slavs". Greeks..should be no problem there...They can party forever...and they are "good" drinkers). So in that sense...all our ancestors do affect who we are...and become...to various degrees...but as far as a people having a collective "genetic" talent for something...that can also heppen...and develop...in different ways...due to various reasons and circumstances.
Even having heterogenous origins...after centuries of co-existance...we create homogeneous communities..under specific socio-political, economic, climatic, geographic conditions. Talents developed over centuries...are passed on from generation to generation. ( I just wonder how island Greeks would sail boats in Siberia.) Now...the big question is...do these skills...exercised over many generations by a people and their descendants...actually affect our DNA. I recently read some US study...how generations of stress...and stressful circumstances...do affect the genes. So can we also affect intelligence...(over generations) and other talents and skills?
When they arrived in Sao Pualo...in the 1950's..Greeks got into the shirt manufacturing business. Before them...it was a Jewish "thing". Then the Koreans came in the 70's....and took over. In North America...it was corner diners and pizzerias...(but now...they're being squeezed out by chains and franchises...and their progeny...having been given better opportunities...isn't interested). So really, having been given better and more varied opportunities...people from all around the world....in the Americas...and have shown that regardless of any ethnicity's history....anything can happen. There are of course...certain areas where you need a particular physique to excel (skill alone won't do)..such as basketball....football. But then...physique alone won't do. And the average Greek's height...doesn't seem to correspond to the excellence of the Greek basketball players. Although....is it a coincidence...that so many Turkish basketball players...are by origin...from former Yugoslavia...the land of basketball giants. A while ago...I was talking to an avid sports fan..otherwise also a surgeon...and a bon vivant...and he was commenting...that it is no coincidence that there are so many "Blacks" in US sports. In US football...there is an ideal physique..and skill set....for each position...and his theory was that what made Black Americans so successful...is that they had the right genetic mix....being black and white-there are hardly any "pure" Blacks in the US...they would have inherited the dense musculature (I think it's called "high twitch" muscles... in kinesiology) from their African ancestors...and then the bulk...and width...endurance as well...from the Caucasian ancestors. Of course...height and weight is very much related to nutrition...so that variable is circumstantial. Yet..having been given an abundance of other opportunities...would so many US Black kids...choose to go into sports....regardless of their God given..."biological endowment"! We don't always follow our talents. We are given opportunities...and we also follow desires...and interests. The ideal combo would be desires, talents and interest...with lots of opportunities..in one package.
So then...we come down to opportunities and circumstances...regardless of our ethnicity, origin...otherwise...why would someone like George Bush be ruling the world's most powerful country. He does seem to have one big "telent" going for him. The man is a true psychopath. No remorse...whatsoever! I think we'll agree on that one...for sure! Gospe 15:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Onassis took up shipping in Argentina. His family was Tukish-speaking from Anatolia... (if I correctly recall reading) and I think he came from a family who had become shopkeepers....after moving to Smyrna....so really he was from a new merchant class...but he probably did SEE how well other Greeks in the diaspora...did...in the shipping business...and then he did marry a shipping heiress! His initial merhcandise was tobacco. So that Anatolian part...really explains why he had that "look"! Obviously...he wanted to "marry well" as well...so he turned to shipping! (Just kidding)!
Regarding the earlier posting...I think you presumed that I was implying that somehow...the indigenous population would have been "inferior" to the Hellenes...and that somehow...I was going down that road. Not at all. In fact...great things happen...exactly at the crossroads of peoples and cultures...so maybe...it's exactly that mix...as well as other circumstances that made the ancient Greeks so great (If genes alone matter...then....well...what went wrong...since then). The same can be said about many other cultures and civilizations...there is always a potential Hitler and Archimedes...among all of us. As far as democracy goes...well...it's a very fragile thing. Look at France and le Pen. The US and Bush. Germany and Hitler. Well...what can I say. Shit happens. Tito was a great dictator (for a dictator). Milosevic kept getting reelected...and yet he not only destroyed Yugoslavia...with his nationalist BS. He launched himself as the Serbs' saviour...but is directly responsible for the disappearance of the same Serbs (from many parts of former YU) that he claimed to be protecting.
So how do we exercise the best of democracy.....yet disallow such non-democartic tyrants and demagogues access to democracy. For every so-so dictator like Tito and Assad...there are 10 blood thirsty tyrants...lined up to suck our blood....and the scariest part is that manage to get there through the "democratic process"! Gospe 16:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well...the scariest part is that a lot of these people with high IQ's aren't "democrats" at all. If I take my ancestral town as an example...the biggest warmongers were the most prominent, the educated....who then "convinced" the frustrated and the marginalized to join them..and ..."go..get'em"! A high IQ is no reflection of ethics, morals, character, mental health. Also...we humans aren't necessarily rational. We SEE no God...and YET we BELIEVE in God. That's the only way I can justify all the irrational war propaganda that went in Bosnia...and how a more developed, advanced coutry like Germany....could have been 'fooled" by Hitler.
I mean...you take someone like my mother, who spends most of her time on nudist beaches near her Adriatic Sea beach house...with a name like Fatima...in Karadzic's war machine...she is another potential memeber of Al Qaeda...."threatening Europe on Serbs' ancestral land"! I'll give you countless examples of totally irrational behaviour. My grade school buddy is a sad case in point. We all went to school from grade 1...onto university (I left earlier as I moved..but I had strong ties to the town)! He married a "Moslem"....grew up with "Moslems"...in a formally atheist state.......yet became a Serb "Voivoda"...War lord...who most likely participated in "cleansing" his own neighbourhood of his own neighbours. How rational is that? Of course...there was war booty for the most eager and ruthless: good..well located houses, land, furniture, jewelry, businesses, cash etc. And I should add...there is no long history of Serbs in my town...so unlike the Greeks in Smyrna who fought the Turks with some genuine historical legitimacy...we have no millenial Serb hisotry..in our neck of the woods. NO PROBLEM! That can be "created" too. The propaganda machines can convince us of anyhing...as being "right"!
Democracy is desirable...of course..but Macchiavelli was right too. We like to think we're democrats...but very often we're ALSO Machiavellian! Gospe 13:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
So, keeping the whole tangled history of many Western European countries mentioned here in mind...
You have four main branches, one for each of your grandparents. So, for half of one branch are people from country A, one of those confused Western ones, who may have intermarried with nearby country B. For the other half, the people were from country C, but they lived across a stretch of water in country D. Both halves came to the United States, which is alphabet soup by its very definition, 10+ generations ago, intermarrying with people who emigrated from any number of other countries, before finally marrying each other.
Then a second branch, only three generations back, came from country E, completely on the other side of Europe. However, they were actually from country F and moved for some reason, even farther away from E than D is from C. Various official documents, however, say they are actually from G. Some time after that move, WWII came, and they were recruited to the armies of E, F, H, and I, at which point they fled to the States, where their son married the first branch. Throughout it all, the son was the only one to learn/speak English, the others all spoke relatively uncorrupted language F.
And then there are the third and fourth branches, which include people from countries J, K, L, and who knows how many others, who emigrated at varying times, providing for even more country/ethnicity mixing.
By now, the genealogy, the traditions, everything, is so jumbled that no one can tell what is from where, or even which branch. Those parts which aren't quite assimilated and are still unusual around here are so distorted that they are very very rarely recognizable in any of the possible countries of origin. And roots? What are they? As far as any sort of allegiance is concerned, none of them provide more than entertaining confusion. Though on the upside, it's made me want to learn about all the various original cultures, instead. Valuing differences and all that. - Bbik 06:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that was the initial purpose of the page; to help all those unjustly accused of promoting a specific letter's nationalistic agenda. Which reminds me that the complex history and gene idea is just another ...agenda. Apparently the ones who benefit from that new agenda are the ones who have to compile many letters into a single soup [rings any bell?]. That idea, come to think of it, is not that new. It had been tried extensively in the past, and led to those letters jumping out of those soups and flocking together only to form other soups, of the same letters [see Hellenic Empire, Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire to name a few]. Then, occasionally, another multi-letter soup would emerge, and would try to compile all those letters inside it, only to end up disintegrated into single-letter soups again. No matter what bread or spectacles those multi-soups offered, those different letters formed C-towns [China starts from C], or B-communities [Blacks start from B], or G [Greeks start form F for Filthy Greeks :-)] and J-lobbys [we don't mention these], and mostly stuck together within the multi-soup, until of course the soup showed signs of disintegration. You see, we polyglots (if I dare qualify as one) and poly-pragmons manage to function in a multi-letter soup. But we are a minuscule minority... NikoSilver 00:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Who knows... Niko Silver 18:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page was nominated for deletion on 28 November 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Please start a new sub-section with your name and post your thoughts.
There is actually such a test :) The Genographic Project.
I am not sure I qualify for the Nationality Quiz -- I am proud of my country (Turkey) and heritage and culture and so forth. I don't feel sorry for our neighbors, and expect that they also possess a similarly proud self-image. Liking and being interested in your background does not necessarily have to mean disliking others'. Culture does not have patents issued and does not follow along genetic lines. Such a hypothetical test showing that I was not genetically a descendant of those that I descend from culturally would not bother me one bit.
Your nationality quiz reminds me of the flame-wars that sometimes erupt around Turkish/Greek/whatever coffee. We can both drink it, be proud of it, and call the rest of the coffees dishwater. :) The enjoyment of that particular coffee should not be lessened because someone else in the neighboring country likes the same. Regards. Free smyrnan 08:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Got my results back! Western Europe?!?!?! I am going to have to stop defending the Eastern Roman Empire. :) -- Free smyrnan 06:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I go to my shrink (and if I have not one, I find one immediately!), because I have a serious identity problem! My personality looks divided and I don't know who I am! Because of the complexity of my case, my shrink goes to a shrink of his own and gets medication! His only priority now is to get rid of me. This bloody bastard (me!) has ruined his life. He is so confused and worried that he starts searching his own ancestors. When he finds out that he is a 100% X, he calms down and decides to get rid of this annoying patient once for ever. So, one day, he tells me that I have to re-invent my "inner self". I ask him what is that? He substantiates his proposal, and argues that the solution to my problem is the reconciliation of my "barbarian" past with my "civilized" present. And he underscores that, when I achieve this goal, I will also get rid of the above etiquettes.
When I leave from the shrink's office, I believe that this man does not know his job. But, when I get home, I start thinking: Can he be right? And I then try to find a way to implement his proposal and to re-unite my divided "inner self". I first think to go to the X versus Y Survivor program, but I then decide that this is a bad idea. I search the web and find an exchange program for university students (we make the assuption that I am still a university student) between the W and the Y country. Because of the hostility between the two states this program is inactive, but not officially cancelled. So, I decide to revive it filing an application. Unfortunately, the response from the bureau responsible for the program is negative, because there is no other application from the other country, so as to make the exchange. I feel disappointed, but a few days later, a lady from the bureau calls me, in order to inform me that a miracle happened: a student from the Y country filed an application, when she found out that her ancestors were coming from my country! She went to a shrink who told her that she should re-invent her "inner self". I said that I could not believe that, and that these things can't happen. After a month, I prepare my buggages and travel to the city A (which is called B by my supposed countrymen) of Y.
I stay in the city A (or B) for a year. What happens during this period of time? I make friends, have good time and enjoy myself. And the most important: I realize that my friends are civilized. Returning to my country, I am full of thoughts. I am wondering what is the necessity of etiquettes, and I realize that my staying in the X country led to their demise. I then think about the essence of national identity? Is there such a thind, and if yes what does this entail? The purity of blood? The cultural background? The social and family environment? Unfortunately, I realize that I cannot give an answer; maybe all these things or maybe none of these things. And what is my national identity? Does it really matter to give an answer? I touch the ground of the X country whicn is "my country", but at the same time I know that I have friends and ancestors in the Y country, who are "my friends and my ancestors".
After a year, I return to the X country invited by one of these friends. And I have such a nice time in the A (or B) city! One evening my friend introduces me to a girl, a friend of his. When we go to a bar in order to have a drink, the girl turns to me and asks me: "Do you want me to tell you a strange story?" "I'm all ears for strange stories!" I answer. "Well, as you know I am from here and I'm proud for my country. As a matter of fact, I was thinking that you in X are uncivilized and inferior to us. But one day, something crazy happened: I learned that my ancestors come from Y, your country. I was shocked! I even went to a shrink! A shrink who told me to re-invent my "inner self". Nonsence, I thought! But then I realized that he was right, and I decided to come to your country. I found an exchange program, which unfortunately was inactive, but, as a mirracle, a X student filed an application for similar reasons: he found that his ancestors were Ys! And I came to your country and made friends. I even learned your language. And I no more think that you are uncivilized. And I am now looking in your eyes and speaking to you. And I also think that you know who this student from X is. Don't you?" But I am no more listening to words; while she is speaking, the only thing I can think is that she has beautiful eyes ...-- Yannismarou 09:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Hah, that would make a great art film. - Francis Tyers · 16:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean I'm Greek?! - Francis Tyers · 14:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Nationality you mean. Ethnicities surely predate our great-great-grandfathers. Niko Silver 14:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
But people want to be better than others. When they can't do that on their own, they group. And they don't only group in rival nations. They also do in religions, in social classes, in sport teams in whatever they can find. They just have to become better. And that's what makes us progress. Niko Silver 01:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I have relatives who speak the language of tribe X, but it turns out, long after swearing my allegiance to tribe X, that they're really members of tribe Y, and only speak language X because until 30 years ago there were only about 5 language Y speakers in the whole of country Z where we all now happily live, us and them, and those we intermarried with, and most everyone in the family being a polyglot professional linguist, they simply adopted language X, while in country Z, as they already spoke X fluently, and married language Xers, as all 5 of the language Yers in country Z were of the same gender and same-sex marriage was illegal at that time, and there were pleny of other language Xers of the correct gender available in country Z.
So, I, being human, did what any contorted resident of country Z without medical insurance would do upon learning their whole life was a lie, when they couldn't afford a shrink, and they weren't really in any way related to anyone of country X, a much richer country full of people who could afford shrinks, and some who actually were shrinks, although I had country X relations by my country Y relations marrying folks of country X transplanted to country Z, I simply immediately switched allegiances to tribe Y.
Am I ashamed to the very roots of my being for this instantaneous switcheroo of loyalties? Nope, because once the tribe has spoken I must immediately leave tribe X and return to the real reality.
KP Botany 18:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If I forward this to your broker, you won't be able to afford insurance no matter what you pay. Still decrypting and laughing. I'll add questions in a helpless attempt to make you continue this: WTF is a botanologist doing in this page? And WTF is being a professional polyglot linguist have to do with anything? (yes, you win the car) :-) Niko Silver 23:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, but of course, the impact is yet another invention of the oldest casserole! Apart from the unilaterally created multi-soups, we have the voluntarily created multi-soups. The latter, keep those different letters within different segments of the big soups, forming smaller single-letter soups within the big one, thereby maintaining the necessary environment for those who cannot function within a multi-soup, while giving them the advantages of a big soup. These soups have somewhat controlled diversity through their single-letter sub-soups, yet one can enjoy the whole mix, if capable. That's just an experiment multi-single-letter-soup, but it may actually work. Niko Silver 01:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Good laugh, but ultimately it is a big problem on Wikipedia, and I don't see, given Wikipedia's design, any end to the issue, under the current structure, and I'm not thrilled with methods that change the current structure. "Anyone can edit" is the biggest weapon thrown at detractors of the concept that a group of volunteers can create something usable, ultimately, imo, it will be its biggest asset in a world where static-information sources are fast becoming obsolete.
So, what to do about competing natiolistic claims to articles that create chaos on Wikipedia, but are, after all, part of being human? KP Botany 01:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
When we come down to the (biased?) aphorism that all ethnic groups are vastly mixed, we dare explore the reasons for paradoxical human behavior after the mix. That behavior is considered incompatible (and in extreme examples a form of treason) with the behavior of the ancestors of the newly aquired members to that group. This observation raises the question: "Why the hell would people betray their own, and support their foe?"
The answer is simpler than expected: Sets of values. The newly recruited often find need to identify as such due to personal likings or dislikings. Sometimes they are forced by the circumstances and feared of the consequences. The result is always the same: The next generation has much less attachment to the old status, and the next even less, and so on. Assimilation produces new followers, possibly unaware of their past.
These followers adhere to the new set of values, because they grew up with it, and anything else seems uncommon, and rejected by their peers (stereotypes). However, this adherence is biased, simply because (newly recruited or assimilated or not) those followers tend to explore only their own (new?) sets of values and disregard exploring the others. Propaganda and reverse propaganda also play an important role in the enhancement of the positive elements of one's culture, and negative elements of the other cultures. Hence, their judgement is biased by their limited or even twisted knowledge. So people's minds and opinions are vastly more compatible to their own experiences, rather than to their "genes", to the extent of making wars in order to maintain or expand those values, sometimes even against their own ancestors' sons!
Had they been aware of the merits of the other cultures, and of the constructive criticism on their own culture, then they would be more capable of filtering the elements of those cultures to produce their own set. We are terribly far from that, and even if information was universally available, we still don't know how and if it would be used positively as described. Recent examples of educated people, like Orhan Pamuk's real reasons for the nobel prize, (forgive my unilateral example, I happen to be a victim of the afore mentioned selective information), are indeed positive steps, but then again, too microscopically few, and very well burried from the rest, instead of being exemplified (cite to prove me wrong, I will be pleased).
A wise person, cannot but foresee that indeed such selective information practices only make their own group less susceptible to positive change. That would definitely be a disadvantage in the evolution of this group's value system, and detrimental for their society in general. Therefore, the true patriot, is the one who tries not only to learn the merits of other cultures and their constructive criticism on his own, but also to even try to force this information among his own, in order to help this value system evolution process, knowing that he may be misjudged, knowing that he may be even prosecuted, and knowing that no matter how hard the information push attempt is, most of his compatriots will probably ignore it due to their pre-programmed biases.
Even after writing all that, I admit being the least capable person on earth for practicing it. :-( Niko Silver 13:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that you mostly speak about social, cultural and nationalist stereotypes. These stereotypes go from one generation to the other, and, despite the differentiations that you mention, some powerful stereotypes are common to all generations. Propaganda is not necessary, so as the stereotypes to survive. The dynamics of a society is enough. I have in mind examples of my own country: When a building hosting handicapped persons was decided to be created in the X region, the whole population of the region (young, middle-aged, older, men, women) reacted. This is a reaction caused by a social stereotype. But national stereotypes work the same way. For instance, an English stereotype is that they don't want to be called French (me neither! I hope that a French friend of mine does not read these lines!). And the stereotypes are so inherently printed in the sub-conscious that it is very very difficult to fight them. Some individuals achieve to go beyond them, but societies as a whole are very susceptible to their influence. I also agree that the best medication against stereotypes is education and information. Open-minded people are the best antidote against them. But I don't have in mind many of this kind! I tend to believe that, unfortunately, the majority of people does not want to think! They believe it is too tiring!-- Yannismarou 08:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Are there any more ideas, or shall I wrap this all up and create an essay? Niko Silver 00:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Niko, but this "nationality quiz" is completely unrealistic. First of all, you don't need a "DNA ancestry identifier device" to discover if you are really Greek or English (or whatever). Noone is 100% Greek or 100% English. But I do consider that nationality is formed not from "culture", but from race, biological ancestry and blood. A Nation is its People (Λαος), and the People are formed from tribes, from racial types. Culture, which is used to define a Nation, comes from Race. Someone who is not of Greek ancestry and blood, cannot act as a Greek. This is why differences between Nations exist. Germans are organised, Greek are (considered to be) zamanfou. If you want to find if you are Greek, you don't need a "DNA ancestry identifier device", you just have to study the Greek racial type. If you belong to the Greek racial type, you have a majority of Greek blood. You can be 90% or 60% Greek, as I said nobody is 100% Greek. I used to have an essay, by David Lane, in my userpage called "Who is White?". I think he says it all for me. Mitsos 14:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I 'm bored and I 'm not going to read your comments above (lol), so can you please explain to me why you think that I 'm wrong? "Do you dispute the fact that the son of a Janissary can attack Greeks? Do you dispute the fact that if I adopt a little baby Turk, I can make him a Greek ultra-nationalist" You can make a Turkish boy (of Turkish blood, because most "Turks" today have Greek blood) a Greek ultra-nationalist, but he won't act as a Greek. He will think that he is Greek, and he will be proud about that, but he will be different. P.S.: Yannismarou told me this nationality quiz will make me think. In fact, it only made me think how ignorant people are about certain things (I don't mean just you Niko) and how influenced they are from the ZOG's media. Cheers Mitsos 12:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I saw above that you and Yanissmarou (οπως και χιλιαδες αλλοι νεοελληνες) watched the the TV show Yabanci Damat. I will only say this: ΤΑ ΣΥΝΟΡΑ ΤΗΣ ΑΓΑΠΗΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΣΤΗΝ ΚΥΡΗΝΕΙΑ! Mitsos 18:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Mitsos...your attitude is scary. It is exactly this kind of "racist" Hellenism....which has made it so difficult for me to bond with a lot of Greeks...in general (and I am a very multi-culti worldy person...who really loves to "dive into" cultures, languages..etc). There is this really scary-ugly side of modern Greek nationalism...that really pops up with this "Greek racial type" business! It gets even scarier when some dumb assed hillbillies from Taigetos or Pindus...(having been educated and convinced that they are the "prime" specimens of this supposed "Greek racial type" and blood heirs of Greek greatness) try to snub you...as if they're somehow still a "Barbarian" foreigner....and they're all...descendants of Aristotle and Archimedes...of course....HA..HA..HA!
There was a time...when I'd just had ENOUGH and before I distanced myself from that crowd...I made my point. In NO department was I inferior. In fact...we were very similar...the big difference being...that instead of hearding goats and sheep...our ancestors up north...hearded cows and sheep. Oh..yes..I forgot to add...our coastline isn't as long...so we had fewer fishermen. Gospe 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I see now. I'd just like to know how Mitsos would "classify" someone like Fatima Whitbread! Being half-Greek and also half-Turkish...Cypriot on both "sides"...YET...raised in the UK...as a "Britisher" and a well known figure in the UK sports world. From what I've read...although her background IS Cypriot...she is British...through and through! Is she "faking" it? for the fame and glory? Is she an "English-British" Crypto-Kypria?
Gospe
18:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I just found this...and thought it would be fitting to insert it:
"Know Thyself
Greeks' contemporary self-image is built upon a series of myths. The myth of continuity. The myth of the racial and cultural superiority of our ancestors (and, thanks to continuity, our own). The myth of being special. The myth of racial and religious purity. The myth of the genius of the Greek race.
The existence of these myths provokes certain predictable reactions. Thus, my typical compatriot, while proud to be Greek (95 percent, according to polls) will abuse and censure his countrymen at the slightest provocation. And this, naturally, because they fail to live up to the expectations and the demands created by the myths.
This explains why we're simultaneously the greatest eulogizers and the worst critics of ourselves. Depending on our point of view (and on the moment), we either denigrate Greeks or sing their praises. (In the former case we usually refer to them as "Romious"). Naturally, both attitudes are wrong. Instead of applauding or cursing, it would be better to stop, and think. Calmly, and rationally. (But I forget myself. Rationality is also a Western, imported Evil for our Helleno-centric intelligentsia. So much for Aristotle!)" Gospe 06:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess because I've spent a lot of time with Greeks and then after I read this...I thought of Mitsos and his statements...which are so passe...among the younger Greeks and so true for a lot of the older generation. So there's this huge divide, generational gap...between the youth and their parents-grandparents. At least that's been my observation. It's like a quiet social revolution...and ... my impression is that everything "happend" in about 20 years' time. And the change has been huge. The best way to gauge this is to talk to Greeks who left the country a few decades ago...and really...a lot of these people are cultural relics. I can see how they'd feel out of place in the new European Greece. As far as Greeks being either the biggest critics or the greatest eulogizers of their own kind...I've seen that too...but again...the younger generation seems to have more common sense in those matters. Also...Greeks don't "keep things in". Whatever's on their mind...comes right out..so everything seems magnified...love, hate, acceptance, rejection...and it all seems...much better or worse...than it really is.
Also...this mention of rationality being alien to Greeks made me laugh....for I often found that to be true...in my conversations with the older generation...2+2 didn't always come to 4. I used to think it was all the booze & dope... and the partying that fried these guys' brains out (this was a bunch of party animals)...but then I read the statement...above...and started laughing. I guess... a totally new Greek society is emerging. It's hard to tell how it's going to evolve...with all the different influences and geopolitical reality in the region. Gospe 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not know for myself (since I'm not emotionally bound like that), but I'll give several examples from former Yugoslavia: The founder of the first organized Croat political party, the Croatian Party of Rights, Ante Starčević had a Serb mother. Yet despite that he became a fierce croat nationalist, was proclaimed Pater Chrobatiae et Pater Chrobatorum or "The Father of the Croatian nation". Aside from his side-by-side anti-semitism, he shared a very deeply and strongly entrenched anti-serbian sentiment. The second man to Ante was Josip Frank, a Jew that converted to Catholicism and became one of the most fiery contemporary Croat nationalists. Frank supported Ante's words how the Jewish people were an inferior breed (and he himself purged of that thing by accepting superior Croatdom) and also advocated for assimilation of the lower nations to the superior Croat master race, explaining it as the only possible solution to their "problems". Starcevic's ideology would remain for 150 years representing the extreme nationalist cheek of Croatia to this very day, which culminated several decades after his death with his heritage's formation of the Ustaše, the greatest "native" genocidist group the Balkans have ever seen, causing indirect, direct or supportive deaths of over one million "non-aryans", belonging to the lower races not fit for the Super Human and political opponents standing on the way of the Axis machinery, amongst whom the greatest part were Serbs. Shockingly enough, Starcevic's successor and the Leader of the Ustashas, Ante Pavelić has Serbian origin on his mother's side (grandmother?).
A similar grotesque is sitting today as I write this in Hague. His name is Vojislav Šešelj. The man, despite being a very pious Orthodox Serb, is an ethnic Croat (or at least of direct Croat descent). Ever since 1990 he has become the greatest Serbian nationalist there has ever been, calling for xenophobia and spreading hate speechs, particularly against the Croats. He launched a giant ultra-nationalist mechanism, a war machine that haunts the largest number of Serbia's voters today and went beyond the limits of extreme, up to almost direct involvement in atrocities against Croats in Vojvodina and eastern Croatia. Seselj, while acting like an uneducated monstrosity that is funneled not by the actual sense of Serbdom, but by enormous hatred towards nations (Croats, Albanians, Americans) & organizations (Roman Catholic Church) that have had at any point in the history done something bad to any Serb.. the alleged "enemies of the Serb people"; was AFAIC the generation student of Sarajevo and one of the most educated men in SFRY... Just like a great genius once said over 80 years ago - this can be applied to Seselj's emotional terror - "[..]enough hatred, so enough that if it would be transformed into electricity, it would be enough to light whole cities of the globe". When Vojislav S. himself in detail discovered that he's an ethnic Croat - he went to his ancient homeland in mid-western Herzegovina, filming the very Orthodox church in which he was baptized and then spreading the word of hatred & terror amongst his local "ethnic" (not national) countrymen. -- PaxEquilibrium 20:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. Ante Pavelić was Serbian???? Complete nonsense. Mitsos 13:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Bullshit. No, Šešelj hasn't Croatian roots. These are all bullshit. Have you got a source for all that????????? Mitsos 13:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The last name Seselj can be found among both Croats and Serbs...the reason being that the name is a Vlah name (nomadic Vlaho-Aroumanians populated huge areas of the Balkans...especially southern Serbia which was referred to as "The Old Vlahia", eastern Herzegovina and the Dalmatian hinterland bordering on neighbouring Bosnia Herzegovina). Vlahs in these parts were mostly assimilated by Serbs but...also by Croats...Albanians...and as you all must know...in huge numbers...by Greeks.
Throughout the Balkans...but especially in Bosnia Herzegovina...we find family names of Vlah origin: Dodik...Tintor...Kragulj...Zuzulj...Zezelj...
We also have a mountain called Vlasic (best skiing in the region)....in Greek it would be something like "Vlahika"....a Vlah cheese...called "Vlaski Sir" and high mountain settlements which are referred to as "katuni" high above the city of Travnik! There are no Vlah speaking communities left...as they have been assimilated into the various regional ethnicities!
Of course...calling someone a Vlah...well...like in Greece...is a quasi insult...especially if you are a proud Serb or Croat...have no idea of what a Vlah is...have no immediate connection to the culture, people, language of your ancestors...and like Seselj...are just a crazy MF who claims to be a Serb. 21:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Gospe 05:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
you gave me quite an amusement Niko with this nationality tester... but this is the reason why here at the Balkans you should not take your high school history textbooks for granted! i'm not talking about yours in particular, but anyones, nowadays... i am from Macedonia (or Skopia as you hare it more frequently) and i'm going through this process... i find out that what i learned in high school about history especially Balkan, and our national history is not quite true... But than again I know that what Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs learn in their history is as wrong as our versions... Therefore i end up in this unwanted dilemma: do I embrace the nationalistic tendations in history that my own country is propagating, which i know that are false in order to preserve national identity against neighboring propaganda, or do i go on my own and find my own realistic truth...
hope u can help me with this dilemma, since i see you are experiencing similar ideas, and yet you are on the "other side"...
Martin taleski 02:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've spent a bit of time reading my old political economy texts...and really...the birth of modern ethnic nationalism...coincides with the birth of mercantilism...and the mercantilist state. Ethnic and cultural identities always existed...people always had their own communities...languages...patois....dialects...whatever....but a lot of what we identify with as "national" today...is "manufactured" by a bourgeois class. I know I sound like some old...lost Marxist soul...but really...economic and technological revolutions...including globalization...internet....are revolutionizing our sense of self....our identities...communities...etc. Just yesterday...while planning a trip...I came across this website from the Pontic Black Sea region of Turkey www.ocena.info....and here they were...FINALLY...after almost a century of forced estrangement...Pontic Greek speaking Moslems and Pontic Orthodox Greeks...building bridges...on the internet: sharing photos..of ancestral villages, playing their ancestral music...and really...it was so touching and also so sad....that they very forcibly estranged...for no other reason...than that a certain "class"...a powerful group of people wanted exclusive rights to a certain territory. Education and technology will really revolutionize this world...even more. I can tell my son "you're this..and this...and this"...but then the next day....he can go out...pay a couple of hundred $$$ for a DNA test...and say: "Mom...did you know we're black too"! So now...we redefine ourselves as cultural guardians...and not really as BEING the blood heirs to a people...for we're not even sure who exactly all those supposed glorious ancestors.....really were. I know they did some DNA testing on Egyptian mummies..and their DNA pretty well reflected the DNA of today's Egyptians...as well...but what about parts of the world that have been constant "bridges of humanity"...eg. the Balkans and Asia Minor....where we have "layers" upon "layers" of history, languages, peoples. Gospe 02:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What I am curious about....is who were the indigenous peoples of present day Greece and Albania. I know that northern Greece...had a lot of "traffic"...but what about the rest of the country. For example...where I originate...the indigenous population is supposed to have been an Illyrian tribe called "Japods" mixed up with Celts (perhaps that's why I'm a bit freckled and pasty white...with reddish auburn hair). When I hear of Celts...I think of the Irish...and red hair! When I hear of Illyrians...I think of Albanians and their romanized "cousins" the Vlahs. Then...there were also some Saxon settlers...as well. some of my cousins would have been "prime" picks for Hitler's Jugend. They definitely "look" more German than many Germans themselves. So...who was indigenous in Greece...before the arrival of the Hellenes...who were these "Achiei" that I've heard about from my Greek college prof? And then...if geneticists have been able to "isolate" this supposed "Slavic" gene...have they also isolated the "Hellenic" gene...the "Achiei" gene? There are so many different "looks" among the Greeks I know. Some look right out of Kurdistan...in fact...I know of a guy from Lesbos...who is a spittin' image of a Kuridsh guy...and I recall when they met. It was hilarious. The Greek guy was a bit drunk...and he looked up to the Kurd...who happens to be VERY tall...and in a drunken daze....began staring at the other guy's face...as if he were looking at a mirror! Suddenly he blurted out: "Whoooo are you? My BIG brother?"
Then...others look very Slavic...in fact...I have an acquaintances from Larissa...who look SO Slavic. The entire family...could easily pass for Poles. I could go on and on. A guy from Crete I know...looks very Egyptian...North African....yet my grocer..who is Cretan...is extremely fair...almost blonde....and many Cypriots I've met...look a bit Mid.Eastern...even Egyptian. There really seems to be no "look" except for the older generation's shortness and attire...and perhaps...the dominant brown hair...and more olive skin. I did notice a lot of "fat cheeks", round noses...meaty faces...especially in people from Arkadia. Gospe 21:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is exactly what you implied earlier....that what and how we identify ourselves...doesn't necessary reflect our "real" origins...and it doesn't have to. I agree with you...that a people develop a "look". That "look" can also bee the result of various "mixes"..and the degrees of various admixtures....and then of course...how it's finally packaged and presented. I never would have been able to notice my sister's very "East Asian" look...(although she is a white European) if I hadn't travelled the world...and looked a little deeper. You'll see her and say...well..she's just another European...and I'll point to her body's proportions..her high cheekbones...etc. Even Native Indians in North America have inquired about her ethnicity..and origin..because she really does look like a predominantly white (with a bit of Asiatic) mix. We develop looks....as well. I can "tell" a Brazilian woman. I spent my formative years there...I know the "walk" (and there is a walk)..there is a way of dressing...talking...interacting...regardless of ethnicity (and God..are they a ever an ethnic-genetic stew)! In exactly the same way you can "tell" who is Greek.
I wonder if you heard about that Moscow experiment...with genes and alcohol. Because a very high % of Eastern Europeans...have "Asian" genes...they attempted to gauge a body's reaction to alcohol...and correlate it to the presence of these genes shared by other "really" Asian peoples..eg. Japanese, Mongolian, Chinese, Native Americans. Apparently, there was a strong correlation...the presence of these genes...did affect the body's reaction to alcohol consumption. (In that department...unlike for my fellow "Slavs". Greeks..should be no problem there...They can party forever...and they are "good" drinkers). So in that sense...all our ancestors do affect who we are...and become...to various degrees...but as far as a people having a collective "genetic" talent for something...that can also heppen...and develop...in different ways...due to various reasons and circumstances.
Even having heterogenous origins...after centuries of co-existance...we create homogeneous communities..under specific socio-political, economic, climatic, geographic conditions. Talents developed over centuries...are passed on from generation to generation. ( I just wonder how island Greeks would sail boats in Siberia.) Now...the big question is...do these skills...exercised over many generations by a people and their descendants...actually affect our DNA. I recently read some US study...how generations of stress...and stressful circumstances...do affect the genes. So can we also affect intelligence...(over generations) and other talents and skills?
When they arrived in Sao Pualo...in the 1950's..Greeks got into the shirt manufacturing business. Before them...it was a Jewish "thing". Then the Koreans came in the 70's....and took over. In North America...it was corner diners and pizzerias...(but now...they're being squeezed out by chains and franchises...and their progeny...having been given better opportunities...isn't interested). So really, having been given better and more varied opportunities...people from all around the world....in the Americas...and have shown that regardless of any ethnicity's history....anything can happen. There are of course...certain areas where you need a particular physique to excel (skill alone won't do)..such as basketball....football. But then...physique alone won't do. And the average Greek's height...doesn't seem to correspond to the excellence of the Greek basketball players. Although....is it a coincidence...that so many Turkish basketball players...are by origin...from former Yugoslavia...the land of basketball giants. A while ago...I was talking to an avid sports fan..otherwise also a surgeon...and a bon vivant...and he was commenting...that it is no coincidence that there are so many "Blacks" in US sports. In US football...there is an ideal physique..and skill set....for each position...and his theory was that what made Black Americans so successful...is that they had the right genetic mix....being black and white-there are hardly any "pure" Blacks in the US...they would have inherited the dense musculature (I think it's called "high twitch" muscles... in kinesiology) from their African ancestors...and then the bulk...and width...endurance as well...from the Caucasian ancestors. Of course...height and weight is very much related to nutrition...so that variable is circumstantial. Yet..having been given an abundance of other opportunities...would so many US Black kids...choose to go into sports....regardless of their God given..."biological endowment"! We don't always follow our talents. We are given opportunities...and we also follow desires...and interests. The ideal combo would be desires, talents and interest...with lots of opportunities..in one package.
So then...we come down to opportunities and circumstances...regardless of our ethnicity, origin...otherwise...why would someone like George Bush be ruling the world's most powerful country. He does seem to have one big "telent" going for him. The man is a true psychopath. No remorse...whatsoever! I think we'll agree on that one...for sure! Gospe 15:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Onassis took up shipping in Argentina. His family was Tukish-speaking from Anatolia... (if I correctly recall reading) and I think he came from a family who had become shopkeepers....after moving to Smyrna....so really he was from a new merchant class...but he probably did SEE how well other Greeks in the diaspora...did...in the shipping business...and then he did marry a shipping heiress! His initial merhcandise was tobacco. So that Anatolian part...really explains why he had that "look"! Obviously...he wanted to "marry well" as well...so he turned to shipping! (Just kidding)!
Regarding the earlier posting...I think you presumed that I was implying that somehow...the indigenous population would have been "inferior" to the Hellenes...and that somehow...I was going down that road. Not at all. In fact...great things happen...exactly at the crossroads of peoples and cultures...so maybe...it's exactly that mix...as well as other circumstances that made the ancient Greeks so great (If genes alone matter...then....well...what went wrong...since then). The same can be said about many other cultures and civilizations...there is always a potential Hitler and Archimedes...among all of us. As far as democracy goes...well...it's a very fragile thing. Look at France and le Pen. The US and Bush. Germany and Hitler. Well...what can I say. Shit happens. Tito was a great dictator (for a dictator). Milosevic kept getting reelected...and yet he not only destroyed Yugoslavia...with his nationalist BS. He launched himself as the Serbs' saviour...but is directly responsible for the disappearance of the same Serbs (from many parts of former YU) that he claimed to be protecting.
So how do we exercise the best of democracy.....yet disallow such non-democartic tyrants and demagogues access to democracy. For every so-so dictator like Tito and Assad...there are 10 blood thirsty tyrants...lined up to suck our blood....and the scariest part is that manage to get there through the "democratic process"! Gospe 16:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well...the scariest part is that a lot of these people with high IQ's aren't "democrats" at all. If I take my ancestral town as an example...the biggest warmongers were the most prominent, the educated....who then "convinced" the frustrated and the marginalized to join them..and ..."go..get'em"! A high IQ is no reflection of ethics, morals, character, mental health. Also...we humans aren't necessarily rational. We SEE no God...and YET we BELIEVE in God. That's the only way I can justify all the irrational war propaganda that went in Bosnia...and how a more developed, advanced coutry like Germany....could have been 'fooled" by Hitler.
I mean...you take someone like my mother, who spends most of her time on nudist beaches near her Adriatic Sea beach house...with a name like Fatima...in Karadzic's war machine...she is another potential memeber of Al Qaeda...."threatening Europe on Serbs' ancestral land"! I'll give you countless examples of totally irrational behaviour. My grade school buddy is a sad case in point. We all went to school from grade 1...onto university (I left earlier as I moved..but I had strong ties to the town)! He married a "Moslem"....grew up with "Moslems"...in a formally atheist state.......yet became a Serb "Voivoda"...War lord...who most likely participated in "cleansing" his own neighbourhood of his own neighbours. How rational is that? Of course...there was war booty for the most eager and ruthless: good..well located houses, land, furniture, jewelry, businesses, cash etc. And I should add...there is no long history of Serbs in my town...so unlike the Greeks in Smyrna who fought the Turks with some genuine historical legitimacy...we have no millenial Serb hisotry..in our neck of the woods. NO PROBLEM! That can be "created" too. The propaganda machines can convince us of anyhing...as being "right"!
Democracy is desirable...of course..but Macchiavelli was right too. We like to think we're democrats...but very often we're ALSO Machiavellian! Gospe 13:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
So, keeping the whole tangled history of many Western European countries mentioned here in mind...
You have four main branches, one for each of your grandparents. So, for half of one branch are people from country A, one of those confused Western ones, who may have intermarried with nearby country B. For the other half, the people were from country C, but they lived across a stretch of water in country D. Both halves came to the United States, which is alphabet soup by its very definition, 10+ generations ago, intermarrying with people who emigrated from any number of other countries, before finally marrying each other.
Then a second branch, only three generations back, came from country E, completely on the other side of Europe. However, they were actually from country F and moved for some reason, even farther away from E than D is from C. Various official documents, however, say they are actually from G. Some time after that move, WWII came, and they were recruited to the armies of E, F, H, and I, at which point they fled to the States, where their son married the first branch. Throughout it all, the son was the only one to learn/speak English, the others all spoke relatively uncorrupted language F.
And then there are the third and fourth branches, which include people from countries J, K, L, and who knows how many others, who emigrated at varying times, providing for even more country/ethnicity mixing.
By now, the genealogy, the traditions, everything, is so jumbled that no one can tell what is from where, or even which branch. Those parts which aren't quite assimilated and are still unusual around here are so distorted that they are very very rarely recognizable in any of the possible countries of origin. And roots? What are they? As far as any sort of allegiance is concerned, none of them provide more than entertaining confusion. Though on the upside, it's made me want to learn about all the various original cultures, instead. Valuing differences and all that. - Bbik 06:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that was the initial purpose of the page; to help all those unjustly accused of promoting a specific letter's nationalistic agenda. Which reminds me that the complex history and gene idea is just another ...agenda. Apparently the ones who benefit from that new agenda are the ones who have to compile many letters into a single soup [rings any bell?]. That idea, come to think of it, is not that new. It had been tried extensively in the past, and led to those letters jumping out of those soups and flocking together only to form other soups, of the same letters [see Hellenic Empire, Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire to name a few]. Then, occasionally, another multi-letter soup would emerge, and would try to compile all those letters inside it, only to end up disintegrated into single-letter soups again. No matter what bread or spectacles those multi-soups offered, those different letters formed C-towns [China starts from C], or B-communities [Blacks start from B], or G [Greeks start form F for Filthy Greeks :-)] and J-lobbys [we don't mention these], and mostly stuck together within the multi-soup, until of course the soup showed signs of disintegration. You see, we polyglots (if I dare qualify as one) and poly-pragmons manage to function in a multi-letter soup. But we are a minuscule minority... NikoSilver 00:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Who knows... Niko Silver 18:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)