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Spellcast (
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Hi, I deleted Ironstone Vineyards because articles that don't assert significance can be deleted at any time - see WP:CSD#A7. All the page said was "The Ironstone Vineyards are a family-owned vineyard in historic Murphys, California in the midst of the Sierra Nevada mountains." Feel free to re-create it as long as it claims significance (and it's preferable to include sources). Or I can restore it on a subpage of yours if you want. Spellcast ( talk) 05:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Ironstone Vineyards, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read our the guidelines on spam as well as the Wikipedia:Business' FAQ for more information.
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Hey. First, thank you for improving this page. I just wanted to give you a heads-up on references. If you take a look at this edit, you can see how I turned your links into references. I use the <ref></ref> tags, and inside that, I use one of the templates listed at WP:CIT. References can be a bit daunting at first, but I encourage you to read about them and use them in your editing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Ironstone's Crown Jewel, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process because of the following concern:
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Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Looking into the file (named in heading) I feel confused, as depicted maps appear upside down. Not only depending on what direction is given for North, even map text is upside down. But leading text outside maps appears right way. Will you consider rearranging map, or would that be a "historic forgery"? TorSch ( talk) 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC) (TorSch of no.wiki)
The top map from Hondius is as it was printed. That map more or less has south to the top. The bottom map is from a topo map which originally had north up, so the text is inverted. A new version could be created. I'll see when I get a chance to work on this. MikeVdP ( talk) 19:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello MikeVdP, I responded to your comments on the talk page here. There are definitely some legitimate concerns about including that material but I don't really know anything about the subject so all I can really do is discuss generally accepted Wikipedia practices with regard to the content. I left some open questions in my comments that need to be addressed by people more familiar with the topic. Hope that helps. SQGibbon ( talk) 19:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello again. I just glanced at your article Other New Albion ideas. Here's the thing, the points that made some of those ideas inappropriate for the New Albion article make them inappropriate for this article (and all of Wikipedia). We always require independent, objective, reliable sources for all claims in all articles regardless of the subject matter. So, for example, if the Gitzen theory is not appropriate for the New Albion article because it's a self-published source then it should not be included here as well. Given that, if you have another reliable source that discusses all these fringe theories in some kind of significant detail then you can include them here with some explanatory text. I hope this makes sense. SQGibbon ( talk) 06:46, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
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Hey, MikeVdP, your new article Windsor historical landmarks came up in my notifications, I think because it linked to an article i originally created. Hey, I notice also that you created Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California), whose deletion nomination I opposed and believe I was influential in saving it.
But, about Windsor historical landmarks, what are you thinking? As noted by others, it is largely copied by you from this WHS Downtown Walking Tour document. You just cannot do that, it is apparently a gross violation of copyright, don't you agree?
I have myself mostly worked on historic site articles and lists, and I have supported many editors arriving and developing lists of local historic landmarks (often within the framework of wp:HSITES WikiProject Historic sites, which I co-started). And Windsor's official landmarks is a valid topic for a Wikipedia list-article. But you cannot just copy. There are automated processes looking for copying. I predict that the entire thing will be deleted from Wikipedia soon, and I think that would be the right outcome, to wipe it out, despite the fundamental validity of the topic. I would be interested and willing to help in starting over though, if you would agree to cooperate and avoid both plagiarism (not giving adequate credit for content or wording, can often be fixed by using explicit quoting and citing sources) and copyright violation (about unfair/illegal amounts of copying that is theft of someone else's property). I hope you are willing to be concerned about such problems, and that you don't want to proceed by copying more stuff which will surely all get deleted relatively quickly.
Let me know if you'd be interested in cooperating, and/or please comment or ask questions. I will watchlist here, but contact me directly at my Talk page if I seem not to have noticed a comment here. sincerely, -- Doncram ( talk) 11:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
P.S. I wonder if you believe that the walking tour document is in the public domain (so copying it would not be copyright violation), because it does not show an obvious copyright statement, or because it may be a work produced by a government? Works by U.S. Federal employees usually are automatically in the public domain, but that is not the case for works by state or local governments. -- Doncram ( talk) 11:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
I ripped out content which was not supported by sources (i.e. almost all of the content) out of Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks and List of historical landmarks in Healdsburg, California. Have you created any other similar lists? I'll look for any and remove their content too.
About a way forward, how about develop Windsor historical landmarks using sources, properly. I ripped out all the descriptions from that list, after verifying the first two were just copied text strings. What is your source about officially designated historic sites in the town? It is not the walking tour document, and I don't see any subpage of the Town's own webpage system. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I see in above that you asserted you had partly edited the Windsor historical landmarks article's descriptions. You did add some instances of reference to the walking tour source, that was good to do. But when I compare your version of text, reworded by you, to original source text, I see that your changes did not suffice. There is guidance in Wikipedia about how much change is needed: please see Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. You need to completely reword. My own best advice, to avoid "too close paraphrasing", is, first, do NOT copy from the source and then try to edit that, because in practice it is really hard to make "enough" change. Your inserting a word or two here or there is not enough. Instead look at what the source says, then in a blank space write from scratch. You will find what you write to be quite different, that you cannot memorize and re-spit out the same wording.
More specifically:
About the first item, "Bell Ranch House":
About the second item, "Old Windsor Community Methodist Church":
Based on this, I feel confirmed in my decision to have deleted all other descriptions, towards truly starting over. I hope this is helpful. Please feel free to consult others, perhaps by inquiring at Wikipedia talk:Close paraphrasing, or at wp:Teahouse. -- Doncram ( talk) 04:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Mike, you've got to exercise more discipline in your edits. That is, don't cut and past from article to article. Such edits only create unencyclopedic messes. The list of Sonoma County History Society landmarks is an example. Is each item in the list on the Society's listing? If so, you've got to provide a reference for each item. Please, the WP:BURDEN is on the editor who wants to add material in an article. "All content must be verifiable." That means you must show the Historical Society has designated each item in the list. Thanks. – S. Rich ( talk) 20:44, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
You've stated that you're working on these articles. I have said, and meant it, that I would help develop if I had documents to work from. Somewhere, responding to my questions regarding one of these, you asked "is there a deadline". You might or might not be aware that's an expression, that there exist essays Wikipedia:There is no deadline and Wikipedia:There is a deadline which have often been cited in deletion processes. My view here: about long term development here, no, but in the short term, yes; meaning that for now the drafts or whatever they are, are okay to be in Draft space, but they are too rough and unsupported to be in mainspace.
For the three articles in question now:
there are fundamental, basic problems of sourcing, and basic factual questions. Currently I do not believe that these are even "things", i.e. I do not believe there is a proper noun Windsor Historical Landmark program, nor a Healdsburg Historical Landmarks program, nor a Sonoma County Historical Society Landmarks program. I did some searching, do not find existence of those, and you have not provided any sourcing. All three might be developed to be legitimate list-articles eventually. They might be saved if documents of local historical societies are found and turn out to suffice. The third one could be converted to be about the Sonoma County Historic Landmarks program, which is a legitimate thing. But it is not okay just to put random lists of random old places in one locale or another into Wikipedia, where "old enough" or "historic enough" is just randomly determined by you or me. There has to exist coverage about the set of places (i think a relevant guideline is wp:STANDALONELIST).
For now I want to move them to Draft and allow you and I and perhaps others to work on them. If/when you believe one is sufficiently improved, I'd ask that you submit it through the wp:AFC process, which brings uninvolved editors in to comment and decide whether to promote a draft to mainspace or not. I'll pause for possible discussion, then either a) go ahead and make those moves, or b) open wp:AFD processes for a formal deletion discussion to happen which I predict would result in the same outcomes. -- Doncram ( talk) 17:28, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Mike, I've been thinking about different courses of action for the SCHS list article. They are (were):
1. Ask for a deletion from Wikipedia. Why? We already have
The Historical Society list article does not comport with WP:Notability. That is, Historical Society's list itself is not notable as an article because it is source material and WP:NOTMIRROR says "Wikipedia articles are not merely collections of: 3. ... other source material ... that are useful only when presented with their original, unmodified wording." So once you provide the list in a form that is accessible to readers the SCHS list becomes the source material as a reference. Such an article would be deleted because it does not comply with policy.
2. Create a List of historical landmarks in Sonoma County, California article. This would be easy because we take the table you created and give it a new title via a WP:MOVE. Easy to do, but the bullet list (above) of similar articles gets longer and less useful to WP readers.
3. Recommend a WP:MERGE. E.g., combine the ±10 articles into one Historic places in Sonoma County, California article. Harder to do, but it has very real potential to become a Good or Featured article.
BUT as I was composing this note I come across Sonoma County landmarks. It seems we already have an article which/that covers all the bases. Shouldn't this be the "be all and end all" article about SC landmarks?
Thanks, – S. Rich ( talk) 03:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of historical landmarks in Healdsburg, California until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Ping also User:Srich32977. Doncram ( talk) 02:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Is it Wikipedia policy that historic landmark buildings and districts in Healdsburg cannot be included on Wikipedia? There seem to be many international, federal, state, county and city designations and the listings for most do appear on Wikipedia articles. What makes Healdsburg (uniquely?) worthy of being cut?
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Doncram ( talk) 00:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your template COI declaration. It shows you are willing to have your feet held to the fire in this rough and tumble world of WP editing. I'll make three recommendations: 1. The only real COI you have is in the Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks article. You've created a red-link in the template when you posted Sonoma County Historical Society. 2. You should add the list article to the template. (And don't worry about the redlink.) 3. The comments should be moved from your user page to this talk page. (Or you can delete them altogether.) – S. Rich ( talk) 02:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for contributing photos, including this one of Mount Weske Stables, apparently a historic round barn (octagonal or other polygon shape, up to true circular). It's an important contribution! There are very round barns surviving or ever built in California, and this is indicated to be from the 1870s or 1880s. I have the impression the historic era of round barn construction, as an ideal, hoped-to-be-efficient type, was over mainly before it got to California, and there were very few historic ones built. I think that's the case, rather than there having been many built then lost. Anyhow, any historic round barn (or stables) is very notable! And I have believed Wikipedia has been getting close to identifying them all, in conjunction with Dale J. Travis, builder/maintainer of a vast system at http://www.dalejtravis.com/ about both historic and non-historic octagonal/round structures. He apparently didn't know of this one, I'm excited to see the pic! See it now included in List of round barns. Hopefully more info will become available about it?
Also, see Windsor Masonic Temple is now included in List of Masonic buildings in the United States#California.
FYI I've added categories over at Commons for some of the pics you've uploaded, although the categories available might not match up really well. I've also done some editing at the Petaluma and Windsor list-articles and related pages; there are some new NRHP articles. Thanks! -- Doncram ( talk) 03:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I wondered about a couple photos you uploaded to Commons with claim that they are your own works, mixed in with other photos that seem clearly to have been taken by you on your phone camera. Now I see that, at Talk:Windsor historical landmarks#Town Official Records, you did post a question, probably for me. You stated:"It wasn't easy to find, but the official documents are at https://www.townofwindsor.com/DocumentCenter/View/1466/Historic-Register-and-Resolutions-of-Approval?bidId= https://www.townofwindsor.com/DocumentCenter/View/1465/Historic-Register-and-Resolutions-of-Approval?bidId= (looks to be a slightly earlier version) Are photos in Town records like this subject to copyright? Can they be loaded to Wikimedia Commons? MikeVdP ( talk) 00:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Please do not introduce links in actual articles to draft articles, as you did to Healdsburg, California and Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks. Since a draft is not yet ready for the main article space, it is not in shape for ordinary readers, and links from articles should not go to a draft. Such links are contrary to the Manual of Style. These links have been removed. Thank you. - Arjayay ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
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Doric Loon ( talk) 09:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.
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If it's only "distributed to Board Members and members of the Board Facilities Committee (BFC)" and hasn't subsequently found its way to a library or onto the web where the public may consult it, then a document may not be cited. You say that "The letter from FIGR to SRJC [...] is public." In what sense of "public"? Editors here don't attempt to prove either that there was no outreach or that a letter was suppressed: such an enterprise would be what's called " original research", which isn't permitted. Instead, an editor cites reliable, independent, published sources that verify that there was no outreach or that a letter was suppressed. If such sources can't be found, then the matter goes unmentioned on Wikipedia. No, FamilySearch can't be cited either: please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. NB the comment of mine that's reproduced above is one to which I subsequently made some revisions; please see the revised version (and a subsequent comment on pruning) in this version of the draft. Also, my comments don't supersede Timtrent's earlier comments on "bullet points"; they add to these. I don't suppose that Timtrent was writing only about what actually come with bullet points; rather, I'm pretty sure that he also meant the material that reads as if it had bullet points; as an example, "In September 1975 [...] / In April 1978, [...] / In October 1983 [...]" (in the section on the museum, and in my opinion anyway ripe for removal because about events that occurred decades after the death of the ostensible subject of the article). -- Hoary ( talk) 03:03, 4 August 2021 (UTC) Corrected Hoary ( talk) 05:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
It's not necessary for cited documents to be in libraries. (That was careless writing, for which I apologize.) They do need to be available to the public, whether via libraries or the internet, or, arguably, in some other way. The documents you're talking about appear to be what Wikipedia calls primary sources; and in order to be used at all they must be "reputably published", among other requirements. And no, unless they're published, private letters and emails are not acceptable reference sources.
It's unusual for the writer of a draft to write comments on its talk page, other than in response to another editor's comments. I now notice that you've written quite a bit on Draft talk:Jesse Peter, Jr.. It's unlikely that Timtrent would have noticed this. (You'd have nudged him to notice if you'd pinged him there in any of a variety of ways, one being " Timtrent", achieved via "{{U|Timtrent}}".) It's probable that his opinions, mine, and those of other experienced editors here will vary slightly; but it's also probable that for the most part we'll agree. If he advises you to write in one style and not in another, start by assuming that other editors will agree with him.
When you say the removal of the name from the Museum is really a set of votes against the man and his actions. It is his name and actions which are being denigrated, not the Museum itself (above), as well as what's here in the talk page, you appear to be objecting to what you see as unjust treatment. This may be acceptable in talk pages, but it isn't acceptable in articles. If newspaper columns, articles in historical journals or other sources of some stature (not mere blogs) say that he has been misrepresented, calumniated or otherwise mistreated, then this matter may be summarized and added to the appropriate article; otherwise, it may not. -- Hoary ( talk) 05:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Re: the footnote you added about the Pretty vs Francis attribution problem. Could you add the citation for it? I was going to edit the info into the pre-existing footnote about the confusion of the attribution, but I'd like all the necessary citation info before I do. Thanks. Endlesspumpkin ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Pretty vs. Hakluyt The existing reference The Famous Voyage (to April 2011) refers to Francis Pretty: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1580Pretty-drake.html Modern History Sourcebook: Francis Pretty: Sir Francis Drake's Famous Voyage Round the World, 1580 Pretty seems to appear first in the French edition of The Famous Voyage: see http://www.donaldheald.com/books/books_text_01.php?cat=Voyages%20%26%20Travel&sortfield=authorLH&pg=8. Then, the the Harvard Classics series, volume XXXIII from 1910 seems to have picked up this version. Many references including those online seem to have followed from the Harvard Classics text. The original sources point to Hakluyt: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=rbdk&fileName=d027/rbdkd027.db&recNum=667 Shouldn't the reference be adjusted to point to Hakluyt? MikeVdP (talk) 16:22, 18 April 2011 (UTC) MikeVdP ( talk) 17:04, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
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Having seen this edit of yours, do you recall which source you used to base the rather drastic change upon. It would be very much welcomed if you could add that as a reference to the current paragraph. Thanks in advance. Wiki klaas 21:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
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The idea that this advertisement hit my funny bone! All the references to fires, fire closures, viruses, virus closures, smoke and such sure wouldn't go in an advertisement! We'll take a look at this. MikeVdP ( talk) 19:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
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Hi, I deleted Ironstone Vineyards because articles that don't assert significance can be deleted at any time - see WP:CSD#A7. All the page said was "The Ironstone Vineyards are a family-owned vineyard in historic Murphys, California in the midst of the Sierra Nevada mountains." Feel free to re-create it as long as it claims significance (and it's preferable to include sources). Or I can restore it on a subpage of yours if you want. Spellcast ( talk) 05:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
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Looking into the file (named in heading) I feel confused, as depicted maps appear upside down. Not only depending on what direction is given for North, even map text is upside down. But leading text outside maps appears right way. Will you consider rearranging map, or would that be a "historic forgery"? TorSch ( talk) 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC) (TorSch of no.wiki)
The top map from Hondius is as it was printed. That map more or less has south to the top. The bottom map is from a topo map which originally had north up, so the text is inverted. A new version could be created. I'll see when I get a chance to work on this. MikeVdP ( talk) 19:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello MikeVdP, I responded to your comments on the talk page here. There are definitely some legitimate concerns about including that material but I don't really know anything about the subject so all I can really do is discuss generally accepted Wikipedia practices with regard to the content. I left some open questions in my comments that need to be addressed by people more familiar with the topic. Hope that helps. SQGibbon ( talk) 19:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello again. I just glanced at your article Other New Albion ideas. Here's the thing, the points that made some of those ideas inappropriate for the New Albion article make them inappropriate for this article (and all of Wikipedia). We always require independent, objective, reliable sources for all claims in all articles regardless of the subject matter. So, for example, if the Gitzen theory is not appropriate for the New Albion article because it's a self-published source then it should not be included here as well. Given that, if you have another reliable source that discusses all these fringe theories in some kind of significant detail then you can include them here with some explanatory text. I hope this makes sense. SQGibbon ( talk) 06:46, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
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Hey, MikeVdP, your new article Windsor historical landmarks came up in my notifications, I think because it linked to an article i originally created. Hey, I notice also that you created Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California), whose deletion nomination I opposed and believe I was influential in saving it.
But, about Windsor historical landmarks, what are you thinking? As noted by others, it is largely copied by you from this WHS Downtown Walking Tour document. You just cannot do that, it is apparently a gross violation of copyright, don't you agree?
I have myself mostly worked on historic site articles and lists, and I have supported many editors arriving and developing lists of local historic landmarks (often within the framework of wp:HSITES WikiProject Historic sites, which I co-started). And Windsor's official landmarks is a valid topic for a Wikipedia list-article. But you cannot just copy. There are automated processes looking for copying. I predict that the entire thing will be deleted from Wikipedia soon, and I think that would be the right outcome, to wipe it out, despite the fundamental validity of the topic. I would be interested and willing to help in starting over though, if you would agree to cooperate and avoid both plagiarism (not giving adequate credit for content or wording, can often be fixed by using explicit quoting and citing sources) and copyright violation (about unfair/illegal amounts of copying that is theft of someone else's property). I hope you are willing to be concerned about such problems, and that you don't want to proceed by copying more stuff which will surely all get deleted relatively quickly.
Let me know if you'd be interested in cooperating, and/or please comment or ask questions. I will watchlist here, but contact me directly at my Talk page if I seem not to have noticed a comment here. sincerely, -- Doncram ( talk) 11:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
P.S. I wonder if you believe that the walking tour document is in the public domain (so copying it would not be copyright violation), because it does not show an obvious copyright statement, or because it may be a work produced by a government? Works by U.S. Federal employees usually are automatically in the public domain, but that is not the case for works by state or local governments. -- Doncram ( talk) 11:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
I ripped out content which was not supported by sources (i.e. almost all of the content) out of Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks and List of historical landmarks in Healdsburg, California. Have you created any other similar lists? I'll look for any and remove their content too.
About a way forward, how about develop Windsor historical landmarks using sources, properly. I ripped out all the descriptions from that list, after verifying the first two were just copied text strings. What is your source about officially designated historic sites in the town? It is not the walking tour document, and I don't see any subpage of the Town's own webpage system. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I see in above that you asserted you had partly edited the Windsor historical landmarks article's descriptions. You did add some instances of reference to the walking tour source, that was good to do. But when I compare your version of text, reworded by you, to original source text, I see that your changes did not suffice. There is guidance in Wikipedia about how much change is needed: please see Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. You need to completely reword. My own best advice, to avoid "too close paraphrasing", is, first, do NOT copy from the source and then try to edit that, because in practice it is really hard to make "enough" change. Your inserting a word or two here or there is not enough. Instead look at what the source says, then in a blank space write from scratch. You will find what you write to be quite different, that you cannot memorize and re-spit out the same wording.
More specifically:
About the first item, "Bell Ranch House":
About the second item, "Old Windsor Community Methodist Church":
Based on this, I feel confirmed in my decision to have deleted all other descriptions, towards truly starting over. I hope this is helpful. Please feel free to consult others, perhaps by inquiring at Wikipedia talk:Close paraphrasing, or at wp:Teahouse. -- Doncram ( talk) 04:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Mike, you've got to exercise more discipline in your edits. That is, don't cut and past from article to article. Such edits only create unencyclopedic messes. The list of Sonoma County History Society landmarks is an example. Is each item in the list on the Society's listing? If so, you've got to provide a reference for each item. Please, the WP:BURDEN is on the editor who wants to add material in an article. "All content must be verifiable." That means you must show the Historical Society has designated each item in the list. Thanks. – S. Rich ( talk) 20:44, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
You've stated that you're working on these articles. I have said, and meant it, that I would help develop if I had documents to work from. Somewhere, responding to my questions regarding one of these, you asked "is there a deadline". You might or might not be aware that's an expression, that there exist essays Wikipedia:There is no deadline and Wikipedia:There is a deadline which have often been cited in deletion processes. My view here: about long term development here, no, but in the short term, yes; meaning that for now the drafts or whatever they are, are okay to be in Draft space, but they are too rough and unsupported to be in mainspace.
For the three articles in question now:
there are fundamental, basic problems of sourcing, and basic factual questions. Currently I do not believe that these are even "things", i.e. I do not believe there is a proper noun Windsor Historical Landmark program, nor a Healdsburg Historical Landmarks program, nor a Sonoma County Historical Society Landmarks program. I did some searching, do not find existence of those, and you have not provided any sourcing. All three might be developed to be legitimate list-articles eventually. They might be saved if documents of local historical societies are found and turn out to suffice. The third one could be converted to be about the Sonoma County Historic Landmarks program, which is a legitimate thing. But it is not okay just to put random lists of random old places in one locale or another into Wikipedia, where "old enough" or "historic enough" is just randomly determined by you or me. There has to exist coverage about the set of places (i think a relevant guideline is wp:STANDALONELIST).
For now I want to move them to Draft and allow you and I and perhaps others to work on them. If/when you believe one is sufficiently improved, I'd ask that you submit it through the wp:AFC process, which brings uninvolved editors in to comment and decide whether to promote a draft to mainspace or not. I'll pause for possible discussion, then either a) go ahead and make those moves, or b) open wp:AFD processes for a formal deletion discussion to happen which I predict would result in the same outcomes. -- Doncram ( talk) 17:28, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Mike, I've been thinking about different courses of action for the SCHS list article. They are (were):
1. Ask for a deletion from Wikipedia. Why? We already have
The Historical Society list article does not comport with WP:Notability. That is, Historical Society's list itself is not notable as an article because it is source material and WP:NOTMIRROR says "Wikipedia articles are not merely collections of: 3. ... other source material ... that are useful only when presented with their original, unmodified wording." So once you provide the list in a form that is accessible to readers the SCHS list becomes the source material as a reference. Such an article would be deleted because it does not comply with policy.
2. Create a List of historical landmarks in Sonoma County, California article. This would be easy because we take the table you created and give it a new title via a WP:MOVE. Easy to do, but the bullet list (above) of similar articles gets longer and less useful to WP readers.
3. Recommend a WP:MERGE. E.g., combine the ±10 articles into one Historic places in Sonoma County, California article. Harder to do, but it has very real potential to become a Good or Featured article.
BUT as I was composing this note I come across Sonoma County landmarks. It seems we already have an article which/that covers all the bases. Shouldn't this be the "be all and end all" article about SC landmarks?
Thanks, – S. Rich ( talk) 03:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of historical landmarks in Healdsburg, California until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Ping also User:Srich32977. Doncram ( talk) 02:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Is it Wikipedia policy that historic landmark buildings and districts in Healdsburg cannot be included on Wikipedia? There seem to be many international, federal, state, county and city designations and the listings for most do appear on Wikipedia articles. What makes Healdsburg (uniquely?) worthy of being cut?
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Doncram ( talk) 00:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your template COI declaration. It shows you are willing to have your feet held to the fire in this rough and tumble world of WP editing. I'll make three recommendations: 1. The only real COI you have is in the Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks article. You've created a red-link in the template when you posted Sonoma County Historical Society. 2. You should add the list article to the template. (And don't worry about the redlink.) 3. The comments should be moved from your user page to this talk page. (Or you can delete them altogether.) – S. Rich ( talk) 02:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for contributing photos, including this one of Mount Weske Stables, apparently a historic round barn (octagonal or other polygon shape, up to true circular). It's an important contribution! There are very round barns surviving or ever built in California, and this is indicated to be from the 1870s or 1880s. I have the impression the historic era of round barn construction, as an ideal, hoped-to-be-efficient type, was over mainly before it got to California, and there were very few historic ones built. I think that's the case, rather than there having been many built then lost. Anyhow, any historic round barn (or stables) is very notable! And I have believed Wikipedia has been getting close to identifying them all, in conjunction with Dale J. Travis, builder/maintainer of a vast system at http://www.dalejtravis.com/ about both historic and non-historic octagonal/round structures. He apparently didn't know of this one, I'm excited to see the pic! See it now included in List of round barns. Hopefully more info will become available about it?
Also, see Windsor Masonic Temple is now included in List of Masonic buildings in the United States#California.
FYI I've added categories over at Commons for some of the pics you've uploaded, although the categories available might not match up really well. I've also done some editing at the Petaluma and Windsor list-articles and related pages; there are some new NRHP articles. Thanks! -- Doncram ( talk) 03:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I wondered about a couple photos you uploaded to Commons with claim that they are your own works, mixed in with other photos that seem clearly to have been taken by you on your phone camera. Now I see that, at Talk:Windsor historical landmarks#Town Official Records, you did post a question, probably for me. You stated:"It wasn't easy to find, but the official documents are at https://www.townofwindsor.com/DocumentCenter/View/1466/Historic-Register-and-Resolutions-of-Approval?bidId= https://www.townofwindsor.com/DocumentCenter/View/1465/Historic-Register-and-Resolutions-of-Approval?bidId= (looks to be a slightly earlier version) Are photos in Town records like this subject to copyright? Can they be loaded to Wikimedia Commons? MikeVdP ( talk) 00:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Please do not introduce links in actual articles to draft articles, as you did to Healdsburg, California and Sonoma County Historical Society list of landmarks. Since a draft is not yet ready for the main article space, it is not in shape for ordinary readers, and links from articles should not go to a draft. Such links are contrary to the Manual of Style. These links have been removed. Thank you. - Arjayay ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
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Doric Loon ( talk) 09:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.
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Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 23:09, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Hello, MikeVdP!
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FaddleTalk to me 07:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
|
If it's only "distributed to Board Members and members of the Board Facilities Committee (BFC)" and hasn't subsequently found its way to a library or onto the web where the public may consult it, then a document may not be cited. You say that "The letter from FIGR to SRJC [...] is public." In what sense of "public"? Editors here don't attempt to prove either that there was no outreach or that a letter was suppressed: such an enterprise would be what's called " original research", which isn't permitted. Instead, an editor cites reliable, independent, published sources that verify that there was no outreach or that a letter was suppressed. If such sources can't be found, then the matter goes unmentioned on Wikipedia. No, FamilySearch can't be cited either: please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. NB the comment of mine that's reproduced above is one to which I subsequently made some revisions; please see the revised version (and a subsequent comment on pruning) in this version of the draft. Also, my comments don't supersede Timtrent's earlier comments on "bullet points"; they add to these. I don't suppose that Timtrent was writing only about what actually come with bullet points; rather, I'm pretty sure that he also meant the material that reads as if it had bullet points; as an example, "In September 1975 [...] / In April 1978, [...] / In October 1983 [...]" (in the section on the museum, and in my opinion anyway ripe for removal because about events that occurred decades after the death of the ostensible subject of the article). -- Hoary ( talk) 03:03, 4 August 2021 (UTC) Corrected Hoary ( talk) 05:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
It's not necessary for cited documents to be in libraries. (That was careless writing, for which I apologize.) They do need to be available to the public, whether via libraries or the internet, or, arguably, in some other way. The documents you're talking about appear to be what Wikipedia calls primary sources; and in order to be used at all they must be "reputably published", among other requirements. And no, unless they're published, private letters and emails are not acceptable reference sources.
It's unusual for the writer of a draft to write comments on its talk page, other than in response to another editor's comments. I now notice that you've written quite a bit on Draft talk:Jesse Peter, Jr.. It's unlikely that Timtrent would have noticed this. (You'd have nudged him to notice if you'd pinged him there in any of a variety of ways, one being " Timtrent", achieved via "{{U|Timtrent}}".) It's probable that his opinions, mine, and those of other experienced editors here will vary slightly; but it's also probable that for the most part we'll agree. If he advises you to write in one style and not in another, start by assuming that other editors will agree with him.
When you say the removal of the name from the Museum is really a set of votes against the man and his actions. It is his name and actions which are being denigrated, not the Museum itself (above), as well as what's here in the talk page, you appear to be objecting to what you see as unjust treatment. This may be acceptable in talk pages, but it isn't acceptable in articles. If newspaper columns, articles in historical journals or other sources of some stature (not mere blogs) say that he has been misrepresented, calumniated or otherwise mistreated, then this matter may be summarized and added to the appropriate article; otherwise, it may not. -- Hoary ( talk) 05:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Re: the footnote you added about the Pretty vs Francis attribution problem. Could you add the citation for it? I was going to edit the info into the pre-existing footnote about the confusion of the attribution, but I'd like all the necessary citation info before I do. Thanks. Endlesspumpkin ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Pretty vs. Hakluyt The existing reference The Famous Voyage (to April 2011) refers to Francis Pretty: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1580Pretty-drake.html Modern History Sourcebook: Francis Pretty: Sir Francis Drake's Famous Voyage Round the World, 1580 Pretty seems to appear first in the French edition of The Famous Voyage: see http://www.donaldheald.com/books/books_text_01.php?cat=Voyages%20%26%20Travel&sortfield=authorLH&pg=8. Then, the the Harvard Classics series, volume XXXIII from 1910 seems to have picked up this version. Many references including those online seem to have followed from the Harvard Classics text. The original sources point to Hakluyt: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=rbdk&fileName=d027/rbdkd027.db&recNum=667 Shouldn't the reference be adjusted to point to Hakluyt? MikeVdP (talk) 16:22, 18 April 2011 (UTC) MikeVdP ( talk) 17:04, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
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Hello, MikeVdP. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Jesse Peter, Jr., a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.
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Having seen this edit of yours, do you recall which source you used to base the rather drastic change upon. It would be very much welcomed if you could add that as a reference to the current paragraph. Thanks in advance. Wiki klaas 21:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
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Gusfriend ( talk) 08:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Hello, MikeVdP. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Santa Rosa Junior College Multicultural Museum, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.
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The idea that this advertisement hit my funny bone! All the references to fires, fire closures, viruses, virus closures, smoke and such sure wouldn't go in an advertisement! We'll take a look at this. MikeVdP ( talk) 19:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
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Chumpih t 09:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Hello, MikeVdP. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, " Jesse Peter".
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Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 22:44, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello, MikeVdP. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, " Santa Rosa Junior College Multicultural Museum".
In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.
Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 22:44, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello, MikeVdP. Thank you for creating Camp Mather (San Francisco Recreation and Parks). User:SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:
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