Welcome!
Please feel free to have extended discussions with me here and not on article talk pages! Thanks! MarkCertif1ed 09:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is an interesting band to research - most evidence is anecdotal, but the little snippets of fact put them in the right places;
It's far from hearsay and opinion, there is plenty of corroboration, and much better corroboration than most of the citations you'll see on Wiki. I still think you're being influenced by the fame game. 1-2-3 stays, anything other than that would be bullshit history. DaveEx 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've covered above why the references are anecdotal - there are a very few people who have said some rather vague things about how exciting and different this group was - the trouble is, that if you like a group, then it's easy to get carried away and make outlandish claims.
The publications make similar vague claims - as I've also covered above - none of what is written in them is conclusive, especially the fan mail from the young Bowie. I find it all rather unconvincing - it looks like it was all either written by the same person, or by a handful of people that all liked the band at the time.
What is surprising is the start split of opinion over them - that is the strongest suggestion that they were doing something different, but does not support claims to have influenced Prog.
However, what was happening in the US at the same time, or perhaps a little earlier, IS conclusive. In the case of Fifty Foot Hose, innovations by other bands is acknowledged - Cork even gives kudos to the Silver Apples and other groups that were using electronic instruments. They're a joy to research, as everything adds up.
They also had jazz influences - as did Pink Floyd, who played the Marquee at the same time - so the clue isn't great for 1-2-3.
The corroboration is scant - there are very few "names" - in fact, Bowie is the only real name.
Some of the claims made about them are outlandish - as if trying to counteract the detractors; Did Genesis really get their dramatic influence from 1-2-3? There's no mention of the Genesis guys attending the Marquee and witnessing them (as just one example).
Surely Fripp would acknowledge his influences - surely ONE out of the mentioned greats would acknowledge this band?
I'm not removing anything yet - but I could - and so could anyone else as anyone can edit Wikipedia.
If this band are to remain, something a bit more substantial is needed, before someone else comes along and decides it's all nonsense.
I'm becoming of the opinion that Clouds are probably worth listing among the Proto-Prog acts, as their music is available - with a little of the anecdodal stuff on 1-2-3 in there for readers to make up their own minds. That way, they get a "mention" in the proper context - after all, are they really more important or influential than Fifty Foot Hose, Great Society, The Byrds, The Who, Dylan, Delia Derbyshire, The Doors or Pink Floyd (none of whom are currently mentioned in that context)? MarkCertif1ed 07:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
1. Incorporating ideas from the classics - well, I'm following that thread, and have found it "starts" at the same time rock an roll starts - 1955. Which groups of those playing this kind of style did Billy listen to? My money is currently on either Nero and the Gladiators or B Bumble and the Stingers - although there are plenty of other choices. Even Elvis based some of his tunes on Classics (It's Now or Never, Wooden Heart, Can't Help Falling in Love - all early 1960s).
2. Mixing up Rock and Modern Jazz - haven't started this one yet.
3. Arranging other people's material - the basis of much (modern) Jazz.
4. Stuff I haven't considered yet... time is short :o)
And these threads are part of a single strand.
MarkCertif1ed 18:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I saw you reverted back to the boy/girl stuff in the article's into [1]. Not that I disagree with what you say, but I find it does not look serious and also implies that the other genres were mostly about this, what would be quite challengeable. I prefer the other version as prog rock sometimes address love affairs too, whereas perhaps not in its early days. -- Childhood's End 12:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly why I removed it - it would be fine to talk about the change towards relationship matters in Neo-Prog, but the number of such songs produced during the main phase of Prog Rock can probably be summarised as "More Fool Me".
Of course, I'm generalising for effect, but as an identifying characteristic, the lyrics represented the final breakaway that the Beatles started in popular music, and provide a stark contrast to lyrics in other genres of music at the time. Only Hard Rock/Heavy Metal concerned itself with such fantastical themes, as far as I'm aware.
Maybe this should be clarified better - because the lyrics of Prog are surely one of their most defining characteristics?
Maybe we should try to keep characteristics completely out of the introduction?
So much work, so little time :o)
MarkCertif1ed 17:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll go with that, as it's more important to emphasise the fantasy/philosophy side of things, but I still don't see how it's challengeable - I can't think of many examples of boy/girl relationship topics in the original Prog bands material - and I don't count "Nights in White Satin" as Prog Rock...
However, almost every pop song until the release of "Revolver" (1966) was concerned with such matters - I can't see how that's challengeable, as it's a fact. It was the most popular theme, and to me, it's one difference that begins to define prog rock, and another reason the Beatles were so important in its development.
Pop songs prior to 1966 that deviate from this norm are generally curios or one-offs - unless you can think of some good examples?
I'm not going to change this again, as I'm not convinced a discussion of the lyrical content belongs in the introduction any more - but I'm more concerned with the rest of the article and getting it into a readable, non-baised and laundry-list-free state - and hopefully go up a grade in the process!
MarkCertif1ed 10:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Any oddities in this section? It seems to be the least challenged and most consistent - but is it right? MarkCertif1ed 10:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that "rock opera" was a characteristic of Prog Rock - it's more a type of concept album. Is there a problem with this? MarkCertif1ed 10:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the discussion of the lyrics belongs here
MarkCertif1ed 10:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Improved the overall readability of this section by logical re-ordering and bullet-points. I'm now thinking that "Stage Theatrics" is one of these "Other Characteristics". The whole paragraph could be chopped down and made into a bullet point. I think that references should be limited to Gabriel's costumes, Emerson's daggers and keyboard antics, and Wakeman's cape - although I'm tempted to mention Knights on horseback on ice in the Albert Hall. All of these are famous and easily verifiable tales that illustrate both the excitement and the excesses of Progressive Rock.
MarkCertif1ed 06:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Other characteristics Poetic, conceptually-themed or fantasy-based lyrics.
>>Maybe some f'examples in here to flesh it out - it's a bit of a bald statement otherwise.
The advancement of technology was always a prime element in progressive rock, especially in electronics.
>>Not fantastic - and not really a "prime" element - consider Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant.
In keyboards, the Mellotron was generally a signature sound in many progressive acts like The Moody Blues, King Crimson or Genesis.
>>Badly worded, but important point.
In the late 1970s, King Crimson's Robert Fripp along with Brian Eno developed his own patented version of electronic gadgetry called Frippertronics using analog tape loops which he still uses today in a digital format.
>>Too much on one item, and wrong section to boot.
>>Missing the electronics and spacey effects of Pink Floyd and Hawkwind, the (B3) Hammond Organ, Moog, etc. Also consider Tangerine Dream, White Noise, Beatles (used all/most), Kraftwerk - probably others.
>>Maybe Keyboards rather than technological developments.
>>While we're at it, what about other unusual instrumentation? Examples = Ian Anderson, Peter Gabriel, Nik Turner, Andy Latimer (etc.) flutes, the many instruments of Gentle Giant, Sax in King Crimson, and so on.
>>There was also the tendency of some Prog Rock bands to play quotations or excerpts from Classical pieces - or even interpretations of entire works; notably Exseption (almost no stone unturned!), Magma (especially Carl Orff), Renaissance (Bach and Beethoven), ELP (Mussorgsky! - et al.).
Concept albums, or albums with an overarching theme: These concepts became very lengthy and elaborate in the mid 1970s peak of Progressive Rock, resulting in packages that extended to 2 or even 3 vinyl discs' worth of music (approx 45 minutes per disc). Concepts of Progressive Rock albums would range from historical through fantastical to metaphysical, and even, in the case of Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, poking fun at concept albums.
The music is often used theatrically to provide devices or ambient soundscapes that aurally describe scenes, events or other aspects of the concept; For example, the use of leitmotif to represent the various characters in Genesis' "Harold the Barrel", and the use of clocks and cash registers to represent time and money in Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.
The packaging of the album as a part of the overall artistic concept: This trend began with The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and played a major part in the marketing of progressive rock. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean for his work with Yes and Storm Thorgerson and his studio Hipgnosis for their work with Pink Floyd.
>>Move closer to packaging for better continuity. MarkCertif1ed 13:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This section is messy and needs working into bite-size paragraphs that people are actually going to read and enjoy, with less tales of favourite bands and their exploits and more potted factual discussions for examples.
The difference is subtle, but is the difference between having this page look like it was written by a fanboy, and making it look like an encyclopaedia article. MarkCertif1ed 10:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This is generally good, but maybe needs a bit of tidying. The final paragraph, particularly, is too long, messy, and includes vague examples of favourite pieces. MarkCertif1ed 10:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, cut the offending paragraph from the article, and will do a re-hash on this page over this weekend.
Here's the original text;
" The Who first tackled the rock opera form with " A Quick One While He's Away" from their 1966 album A Quick One. The Yardbirds' Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page composed " Beck's Bolero" in 1966 which reworks Maurice Ravel's Boléro. Pink Floyd's earliest albums showed progressive elements. The band 1-2-3 (later named Clouds) experimented with song structures, improvisation and multi-layered arrangements. Psychedelic rockers continued this experimental trend and began to compose long, complex songs such as Iron Butterfly's " In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" or "1983...(A Merman Should I Turn to Be)" by Jimi Hendrix. Frank Zappa's early work is also considered progressive. Many other bands began to experiment with blends of rock and jazz, a style that became known as jazz-rock. In the UK, Soft Machine was a prominent early jazz-rock band."
As will be seen, there's absolutely no flow - it's an unreadable list in a style that is a complete mismatch to the earlier part of the article. Much of it is dubious too - and much could be filed under "so what?". Zappa is mentioned in the early paragraphs - the list goes on. MarkCertif1ed 20:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Current Text with >>comments
Precursors In the late 1800s, the French composer Claude Debussy began using whole tone scales and modes now commonly associated with jazz, to break away from conventional diatonic harmony. In the 1910s, the Russian composer Igor Stravinsky used innovative rhythms, lush, unique timbres, dissonances, and Russian folk (pagan) motifs in his ballet Rite of Spring. In the early 1920s, German composer Arnold Schoenberg developed a new method of composition known as Serialism, which led to the evolution of avante-garde music.
In the 1930s, French composer Olivier Messiaen used the newly invented electronic instrument, the Ondes Martenot in compositions. In the 1940s, the composers Pierre Schaeffer and Pierre Henry began using the early tape recorder in the creation of compositions that would become known as musique concrete. Soon after, Karlheinz Stockhausen and others began to compose music entirely by electronic instruments. In the early to mid 1950s, "Cool Jazz" or "Modal Jazz" came about through the work of jazz maestros such as Miles Davis and later, John Coltrane. By the 1960s, Avant-Garde or Free Jazz was firmly established as due to recordings by Ornette Coleman and Charles Mingus.
The experimental period of rock music began in the mid 1960s with the studio work of The Beatles, who by then had given up touring. The influences of Stockhausen are apparent in the 1966 recordings "Rain", "She Said, She Said", and the tape experiment from the Revolver album, "Tomorrow Never Knows". The Beatles used these techniques extensively on Magical Mystery Tour and Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Sergeant Pepper is widely acknowledged as the first album to use the recording studio, and the artistic possibilities it affords, as an "instrument". In the late 1960s, Beatles songs and albums began incorporating many psychedelic rock elements and they also began combining instruments from classical music, Eastern music and improvisatory music.
http://egrefin.free.fr/eng/mellotron/melhist.php: Graham Bond's Organisation, Moody Blues, Mannfred Mann, Floyd - also Kinks and Stones (check which songs). M400 wasn the model used by most early Prog groups, not the MkII, as used by the aforementioned bands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellotron - mentions some songs
http://www.mikepinder.com/mellotron.shtml - a nice link to Mike Pinder's site!
http://www.theatreorgans.com/grounds/docs/history.html - not sure how useful this is
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/hammondb3.asp - Sound on Sound is always good reading, but again, journalistic, and drools all over the instrument.
http://www.hammond-organ.com/History/hammond_lore.htm - interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_organ - of course
http://www.progarchives.com/history-of-vintage-keyboards-used-in-progressive-rock.asp
http://www.jerryfielden.com/essays/electromusic.htm - interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_rock - historical links
Then there's the Moog... http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/272/41/
Then there are the people that were using the technology to make music already - in addition to the well-known and credited ones;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Riley
Now this is where the real work starts to be needed, as opposed to general tidy-up. There's the missing link between the "Precursors" and the Early Bands to consider (Moodies, The Nice, etc. - you could even "mention" the Who, if their contribution pre-1969 is felt to be important and influential).
The overall discussion is messy and doesn't make for good reading MarkCertif1ed 10:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if "early bands" is a good title - The First Wave, perhaps, or The Birth of Prog? Not sure about either. Glory Days? The Golden Age of Prog?
New Running order possibility;
Precursors (not bad - sums it up) (up to 1965ish)
(In addiion to those on the current page): Miles Davies, Stan Getz, Lennie Tristano, Dave Brubeck, Jaques Loussier (Django?), Swingle Singers, Gerschwin, Del Shannon, Shadows, Kinks, Animals
Proto-Prog (1965ish - 1969)
The First Wave (1969 - 1972)
CORE: King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP
Tier 1: Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Van der Graf Generator, Hawkwind
Tier 2: Kraftwerk, Can, Caravan, Soft Machine, Zappa, Moody Blues, Barclay James Harvest, Hatfield and the North, Arzakan, Egg, PFM, Magma, Gong, National Health, Supersister, Focus, Jan Akkerman (solo), Khan, Ekseption
Tier 3 (related, but not full-blown Prog): Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Colosseum II, Strawbs
Tier 4 (Obviously not Prog, but not "Standard" Rock: Bakerloo, May Blitz, High Tide, Quatermass, Fuzzy Duck, Pussy, Electric Light Orchestra (Tier 3?), Wishbone Ash
The Second Wave (1973-1975)
Camel, Supertramp, Triumvirat, Rush (dubious - first 2 Rush albums sound like Led Zeppelin)
The lost years (1976 - 1981) ...obviously, not completely lost - fab albums from Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett and Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, etc. However, many prog stalwarts see these years as somehow "lost" because of Punk/New Wave.
Neo Prog (1982 - 1988?????)
Prog in the Nineties
Prog in the new Millenium
Somewhere in here Prog Metal may fit in, as it's all but replaced "proper" prog. However, I'm of the opinion that these are two separate genres, and that "Classic Prog" merely plays an influential role on Prog Metal - the latter did not actually evolve from the former, but instead took on some of its characteristics.
MarkCertif1ed 13:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Is this a good title? Is this a good discussion? Again, this is long, rambling and messy (a bit like a Wakeman solo). Needs a lot of work MarkCertif1ed 10:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely - that's the best place for the discussion - I'm just setting up a load of scratchboards here so I can doodle a few of my own ideas (and obviously, include other's thoughts), and keep these thoughts together, without making the articles discussion page go into unecessary depth. MarkCertif1ed 11:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Mind? I'd actively encourage you to do so!
It's an open talk page - the more the merrier (and the less off-topic stuff on the article page!), but I might be a bit more open with my opinions here... it's MY page, after all :o) MarkCertif1ed 13:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
As above MarkCertif1ed 10:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1980s revival is widely known as Neo-Progressive Rock and the unquestionable spearleaders of this "movement" were Marillion. Although the "revival" took place in the early 1980s - the point in time can be narrowed down to the release of "Script for a Jester's Tear" - it was already in full flow.
The original Silmarillion and Chemical Alice (Mark Kelly) were gigging around Aylesbury around 1979, and Twelfth Night released their first vinyl album "Live at the Target" the same year. Twelfth Night had been gigging for some time and had released many demo tapes including their first cassette album prior to this.
IQ are important to this movement, as are, probably, Pallas and Pendragon. Off the top of my head. Other Neo Prog bands here:
It's worth noting that the New Wave of British Heavy Metal - or, more accurately, the second wave, which included Def Leppard, etc - not the first wave that included Iron Maiden, were influenced by the re-awakening of the Prog monster.
Examples; Def Leppard, Saxon ("Frozen Rainbow"), Black Sabbath (Heaven and Hell), Blue Oyster Cult (Cultosaurus... and Fire...), and most importantly, Diamond Head - 50% of "Canterbury" is pop nonsense because of the hassles the group had with record companies, but the rest is gold. "Am I Evil" shows a clear progression from the Led Zeppelin style, and, along with the Rodney Matthews cover, features fantastical lyrics and progressive approaches to song structures that are on a par with much Neo-Prog (although not, of course, with the Prog originators). Magnum are probably important too - but I don't know their work well enough.
Later in the 1980s, we have Metallica, whose "Master..." and "...And Justice..." are such clear influences on Dream Theater, who not only covered "Master..." and used Metallica riffs verbatim in their songs (e.g. Sanitarium, One), but clearly based many of their song structures on Metallica songs as early as "Ride the Lightning" - ostensibly a standard rock song with a bridge in multiple contrasting parts.
Not wishing to get into the background of Prog Metal here, as that's another article - but the fact that all this was happening at the same time is possibly worthy of consideration - and may delight Prog metal fans in providing useful links between the genre and the one under discussion (there are others, of course, but I'm getting way off topic...).
Also worth considering the work of King Crimson and The Enid in this period - hugely inventive and true to the original spirit. Maybe Shub Niggurath - if anyone has actually heard them? Zappa/Vai?
MarkCertif1ed 16:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't want to go too far down the metal route, but the Wishbone Ash (twin guitar) -> Judas Priest (virtually invented both thrash and Prog Metal) -> Iron Maiden -> Queensryche tree is a bit too much to ignore. Maybe in the Prog Metal article (which I haven't even looked at yet...). Spooky Tooth and Scorps too, then there's the Tristano/Evans -> Satriani link and the Zappa -> Vai link... MarkCertif1ed 17:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
As above MarkCertif1ed 10:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The discussion is OK, but again, needs to be broken up and freed of laundry lists MarkCertif1ed 10:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
New Running order possibility;
Precursors (not bad - sums it up) (up to 1965ish)
(In addiion to those on the current page): Miles Davies, Stan Getz, Lennie Tristano, Dave Brubeck, Jaques Loussier (Django?), Swingle Singers, Gerschwin, Del Shannon, Shadows, Kinks, Animals
Proto-Prog (1965ish - 1969)
The First Wave (1969 - 1972)
CORE: King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP
Tier 1: Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Van der Graf Generator, Hawkwind
Tier 2: Kraftwerk, Can, Caravan, Soft Machine, Zappa, Moody Blues, Barclay James Harvest, Hatfield and the North, Arzakan, Egg, PFM, Magma, Gong, National Health, Supersister, Focus, Jan Akkerman (solo), Khan, Ekseption, Rick Wakeman
Tier 3 (related, but not full-blown Prog): Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Colosseum II, Strawbs
Tier 4 (Obviously not Prog, but not "Standard" Rock: Bakerloo, May Blitz, High Tide, Quatermass, Fuzzy Duck, Pussy, Electric Light Orchestra (Tier 3?), Wishbone Ash
The Second Wave (1973-1975)
Camel, Supertramp, Triumvirat, Rush (dubious - first 2 Rush albums sound like Led Zeppelin)
The lost years (1976 - 1981) ...obviously, not completely lost - fab albums from Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett and Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, etc. However, many prog stalwarts see these years as somehow "lost" because of Punk/New Wave.
King Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett, Steve Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, Yes (?)
Neo Prog (1982 - 1988?????)
Marillion, Twelfth Night, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, The Enid, Genesis
Prog in the Nineties
Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, Radiohead
Prog in the new Millenium
Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, Radiohead, Muse, Pure Reason Revolution.
Somewhere in here Prog Metal may fit in, as it's all but replaced "proper" prog. However, I'm of the opinion that these are two separate genres, and that "Classic Prog" merely plays an influential role on Prog Metal - the latter did not actually evolve from the former, but instead took on some of its characteristics.
Currently, only ProgArchives.com seems to recognise Proto-Prog as a valid category.
It makes complete sense, to a historian, as there are many bands who were working on ideas that would later become amalgamated into Progressive Rock.
At the forefront of these is surely Pink Floyd, whose first two albums both contain pieces that are still deeply influential to this day in many bands considered to be Progressive (or related), and, of course, a huge number of so-called Krautrock bands that used those pieces as springboards for their own work.
The specific pieces are Astronomy Domine, Interstellar Overdrive, Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun and Saucerful of Secrets.
Saucerful of Secrets is particularly interesting because of the architectural construction of the piece (3 of Floyd were architecture students - find source). There are 4 sections, each with a distinct character, yet the piece is clearly one composition - the transitions between the sections are seamless. Within the tight structure, there is a high degree of improvisation and experimentation - not to mention random noise. This is best highlighted in the "Live At Pompeii" film.
Pink Floyd are important not just because of these pieces and their influence, but also because of the light show and sound canvas that they developed to make up for the band's preference to stay somewhat anonymous on stage. This produced a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, where the visuals and music were inextricably interlinked - a theme that the Floyd would continue developing until at least The Wall, in which the entire show was more like a work of theater than a pop music concert.
The light show included the revolutionary use of heated oils projected onto screens.
The sound canvas included a special device that I forget the name of that they had to develop to control the multi-channel sound. Speakers fed sound from different channels around the venue - there was a plan, can't remember if it was realised, to put a speaker under the dancefloor to complete the surround sound vision.
The artwork on Pink Floyd's album sleeves was revolutionary, as were the lyrics, which dealt with fantastical/sci-fi/fairytale topics, as well as more mundane things related with a psychedelic slant (similar to Kaleidoscope).
Next in importance are the Moody Blues, who many argue invented Progressive Rock. "Days of Future Passed" is generally over-rated, being a collection of simple pop songs interlinked with orchestral interludes. The idea was to create an uninterrupted flow to the album so that it came across more as a kind of symphonic-styled suite - but the reality is somewhat different. Nevertheless, it's a benchmark in the evolution of Progressive Rock.
Their later albums showed marked progression in this field, and for the entireity of the "Golden age", they remain a second tier Prog band, mainly because the individual compositions on the albums remain standard pop/rock songs, and are non-complex - even though the albums are clear conceptual wholes and contain use of instruments recognised as coming under the Prog Rock umbrella. It's a difficult distinction, particularly when you also consider the work of Pink Floyd and Hawkwind - so maybe it's not the right one?
As with the Pink Floyd, the Moodies' artwork is representative of Prog, their use of the Mellotron as a signature sound and use of other electronic effects and orchestral instruments integral to their sound. Also worth considering earlier use of the Mellotron - I did find out who was reportedly first to use it, but can't remember where I recorded that. Beatles used it on "Pepper", of course, as did Traffic and many other bands after the release of Pepper.
Next up, The Nice. Need to explore more, but seem to remember that Emerson was inspired by the Bach/Jazz incorporations I alluded to by mentioning Loussier and the Swingle Singers.
Then Procul Harum. I'm not familiar with much of their early work, but the first album doesn't seem very "Classically inspired", as many fans would have you believe. OK, there's the pop song "Whiter Shade of Pale" and it's obvious Bach connection - but that's a bit of a gimmick to my ears.
Next Tommorow. Steve Howe, of course, went on to Yes, their use of the Mellotron and backwards tape in "Hole in My Shoe" is a bit of an oddity, rather than part of their style. "Twink" went on to form The Aquarian Age, whose one EP is a mini Prog masterpiece IMHO. He then formed "Twink", which released a Hawkwind style LP a few years before Hawkwind did.
As for other Proto-Prog bands, we've got quite a list;
1-2-3/Clouds have a lot of anecdotal evidence - and a big black hole in terms of period documentation and recordings (not unusual for the 1960s...). Need to establish a list of bands prior to 1967 that were doing interesting things - from the prominent (like Floyd and the Nice) to the lesser known but possibly first and most influential overall (like Fifty Foot Hose/the Ethix and 1-2-3. Recordings exist of Clouds, but it's not clear a) what, specifically, they were doing as 1-2-3, or b) whether other bands really did get their inspiration from them or it was simply co-incidence and "everyone" was being experimental. It was an experimental time, and the Beatles led from the front, while Pink Floyd and the Softies dominated the underground - hence these 3 are well researched and documented.
Where did 1-2-3 get their ideas from? Ritchie especially! Perhaps it was from the jazzers, like Loussier, who combined Bach (etc) with jazz?
Links;
Fifty Foot Hose/the Ethix:
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/thebookofseth/96 http://www.mindspring.com/~acheslow/AuntMary/bang/hose_intro.html http://www.mindspring.com/~acheslow/AuntMary/bang/hose.html http://www.terrascope.co.uk/MyBackPages/Fifty%20Foot%20Hose%20interview.htm http://www.o-art.org/history/50s&_60s/Trips/50/50foot.html http://www.answers.com/topic/fifty-foot-hose-1?cat=entertainment http://www.anthologyrecordings.com/release.asp?album=SzKUM4yENNv - fantastic link, connects this band to Varese, who was also deeply influential on Frank Zappa. "Poem Electronique" is mentioned - and how could anyone not be mesmerised by such a work? Also mentioned is Morton Subotnik, the primary influence on Silver Apples, and Delia Derbyshire/White Noise.
OK, biased reviews of the music, but all describe what to listen for, specify precise influences on the band, and the recording is easily available through Amazon to verify that this 1967 recording is something quite unique.
Found this on Julian Cope's site;
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/review/1793 - hurrah! Messaien was not just a Classical composer - he was the original progressive musician.
...more lesser known but highly important bands to follow....
Something like;
Before the release of ITCOTCK, there was a "movement", predominantly in the United States and in the Underground circuits of UK music of progressive music, most of which was happening in the sphere of Rock music. There is fragmentary evidence (one piece so far!) that this was known at the time as progressive rock. It was not, however, the same as the music that became christened Progressive Rock (or Prog) in the mid 1970s - indeed, the term "Prog" came along later still, according to sources (need to source all of this!).
To confuse matters, the term "progressive rock" has also been widely used to describe bands who played rock music that did something a bit different to the run-of-the-mill, or added experimental elements to standard rock songs, e.g Led Zeppelin.
But the experimental rock music that predated Prog Rock was largely in the realms of psychedelic rock, where new sounds were craved to create ever newer and wilder textures in the music, notable use was made of the sitar, the Mellotron, the flute and the Hammond organ.
Psychedelic rock often incorporated free-jazz stylings - or at least, made this claim to lend authenticity to garage style jam sessions - but some managed to rise above the random jams and produce coherent music with relatively free and loose forms. The bands that came to influence Progressive Rock went one stage further, and tightened up the structures of their pieces while leaving plenty of room for experimentation, or went the other way and used classical styles as a springboard for improvisation.
...kinda reasonable, but needs work and links.
MarkCertif1ed 17:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
There is often confusion between the two terms - the noun describing the genre of Prog Rock (Genesis et al) and progressive rock music, which is an accurate term to define a rock band that accomplishes something that "progresses" the genre of rock music - or takes it to a new level, e.g. bands such as Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Scorpions, UFO, Uriah Heep, etc.
This is the whole reason, in my opinion, that bands such as Yes, Genesis, ELP et al are widely referred to as Prog or Prog Rock rather than using the full title of the genre. It makes the distinction between the two - you'd never hear The Who referred to as Prog Rock, for example, but many believe that they were a progressive rock band, and for rational reasons.
The real distinction is in the music, of course - while Prog Rock is almost fully composed, progressive rock incorporates a much higher level of improvisation, and songs of this type are usually standard rock songs (verse, chorus, etc.) with extended bridges - notable examples being "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zeppelin and "Warrior" by Wishbone Ash.
Examples of Prog Rock where this simply is not the case are extensive, but "The Musical Box" by Genesis and "On Reflection" by Gentle Giant are excellent examples.
"Hocus Pocus" by Focus is a very interesting middle ground, as the structure is essentially verse/chorus - but the treatment given to the material is notably different, and the quality of the improvisations shows careful attention to structuring and an overall dramatic picture. It is, however, riff-based - the riff was used by Metallica for the song "Blitzkrieg" (B-side of "Creeping Death"), and hence this, along with a lot of other Focus material, forms part of the Progressive Metal family tree. Focus are a particularly interesting case, with their "Hamburger Concerto", and other pieces, many of which feature repeating riffs - as with "Classic" rock and extended bridges with improvisation. The main difference with Focus' improvisations lie in the advanced techniques of the musicians - particularly guitarist/lutenist Jan Akkerman. Steve Hillage's solo albums (and "Arzakan and Khan") (apart from Fish Rising) all fall into similar middle ground - hence their 2nd tiering. But I get off-topic...
There is a widespread similar confusion between Art Rock - the genre that encompasses David Bowie, Roxy Music et al, and art rock music, which is an all-encompassing term that accurately describes any rock music with artistic ideals (including Art Rock and Progressive Rock as genres) - as opposed to rock music that has the clear goal of "simply" writing rock music for the fun of it, to get the girls, etc. Such bands might include Status Quo - with one or two exceptions in their mid 1970s output and their early music which is clearly psychedelic pop/rock.
The difference between Prog and progressive rock music should be clarified in the first paragraph, with a link to a new article on Progressive Rock Music that clearly makes the distinction - and would include "controversial" bands such as The Who with no difficuly.
MarkCertif1ed 11:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I understand that you have a vision for the article and that you're putting a lot of thought and effort into it and have been doing so for months. I can see that you viewed my edits as throwing a monkey wrench into your plans and I can see why that upset you. I'd much rather work with you than against you. You have to know, though, that Wikipedia warns its users that content they submit will be edited mercilessly and that they would not have it any other way. If that's going to be endlessly frustrating for you, then you're better off applying your efforts to sites like progarchives.com where you have some measure of control over the material you submit. That said, I know you are a very valuable contributer to this article and I do not want to see you go. I know you're more knowledgeable on the subject than I, but I'm not just some Who fanboy. I have a wide-ranging knowledge of much of rock music, including progressive rock. If my text is not well formatted and does not flow well with the text above it, I would be grateful if you could clean it up for me. I'm just trying to get across the wealth of rock acts that contributed to the foundations of progressive rock in the 1960's. Mentioning the Beatles and only the Beatles strikes me as wrongfully dismissive of the many notable and important contributions of other sixties acts. I'd like to add the Byrds, next. My apologies for angering you. The feeling was certainly mutual, but I hope we can work together constructively rather than destructively. 74.77.208.52 10:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, it was a tough job - and I have not deliberately left stuff in to make you look bad, but I did have to leave in stuff I wanted to remove because other editors replied to it, and I can't in all fairness remove their comments without their permission. OK, I could, but it wouldn't be right... Please scan through the edits I've made, and verify that they meet with your approval - I've made notes in all cases where the edits are, and left some of the discussion, because of its direct relationship to the article. If you want to take anything out of individual paragraphs that you wish to withdraw, you'll need to do it yourself - but I think I've removed the unecessary arguing stuff without colouring it one way or the other.
Hello. You recently contributed to a discussion about original research and sourcing at the List of musical works in unusual time signatures. I am requesting comments from the wider community in hopes of settling a dispute there. Please visit this section of the talk page if you wish to further contribute to the discussion. Thank you. Nick Graves 02:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
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Be Black Hole Sun ( talk · contribs)
I've been wondering about that page for a while, and I suppose it's about time we get around to it. If you have some time to help, let me know. I will need lots of sources, so if you have some old articles around, I'm all ears. I will probably set up a stripped-down WIP page sometime soon, but I won't be able to do too much until I get some good reliable sources. Any help you can provide would be much appreciated. 71.203.185.108 ( talk) 22:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
What a Mess!!!!
Loads of horrible lists and unnecessary quotes make this article a hugely unpleasant reading experience -and mostly just dull and pointless.
Time for some surgery, methinks...
Hi, if you make large insertions like this, it would be nice to know what your sources are and how it is verifiable. If you cite a book or an article, you can use the <ref></ref> tags to reference the source. Otherwise it might be assumed that the passage is not based on verifiable source material. Thanks a lot, -- hroest 10:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I started the procedure to have the New Wave of British Heavy Metal article promoted to WP:FA. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New Wave of British Heavy Metal/archive1 needs discussants. Since you were very active in the past on the article's talk page, I am hoping you might give some comments. Lewismaster ( talk) 08:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Welcome!
Please feel free to have extended discussions with me here and not on article talk pages! Thanks! MarkCertif1ed 09:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is an interesting band to research - most evidence is anecdotal, but the little snippets of fact put them in the right places;
It's far from hearsay and opinion, there is plenty of corroboration, and much better corroboration than most of the citations you'll see on Wiki. I still think you're being influenced by the fame game. 1-2-3 stays, anything other than that would be bullshit history. DaveEx 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've covered above why the references are anecdotal - there are a very few people who have said some rather vague things about how exciting and different this group was - the trouble is, that if you like a group, then it's easy to get carried away and make outlandish claims.
The publications make similar vague claims - as I've also covered above - none of what is written in them is conclusive, especially the fan mail from the young Bowie. I find it all rather unconvincing - it looks like it was all either written by the same person, or by a handful of people that all liked the band at the time.
What is surprising is the start split of opinion over them - that is the strongest suggestion that they were doing something different, but does not support claims to have influenced Prog.
However, what was happening in the US at the same time, or perhaps a little earlier, IS conclusive. In the case of Fifty Foot Hose, innovations by other bands is acknowledged - Cork even gives kudos to the Silver Apples and other groups that were using electronic instruments. They're a joy to research, as everything adds up.
They also had jazz influences - as did Pink Floyd, who played the Marquee at the same time - so the clue isn't great for 1-2-3.
The corroboration is scant - there are very few "names" - in fact, Bowie is the only real name.
Some of the claims made about them are outlandish - as if trying to counteract the detractors; Did Genesis really get their dramatic influence from 1-2-3? There's no mention of the Genesis guys attending the Marquee and witnessing them (as just one example).
Surely Fripp would acknowledge his influences - surely ONE out of the mentioned greats would acknowledge this band?
I'm not removing anything yet - but I could - and so could anyone else as anyone can edit Wikipedia.
If this band are to remain, something a bit more substantial is needed, before someone else comes along and decides it's all nonsense.
I'm becoming of the opinion that Clouds are probably worth listing among the Proto-Prog acts, as their music is available - with a little of the anecdodal stuff on 1-2-3 in there for readers to make up their own minds. That way, they get a "mention" in the proper context - after all, are they really more important or influential than Fifty Foot Hose, Great Society, The Byrds, The Who, Dylan, Delia Derbyshire, The Doors or Pink Floyd (none of whom are currently mentioned in that context)? MarkCertif1ed 07:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
1. Incorporating ideas from the classics - well, I'm following that thread, and have found it "starts" at the same time rock an roll starts - 1955. Which groups of those playing this kind of style did Billy listen to? My money is currently on either Nero and the Gladiators or B Bumble and the Stingers - although there are plenty of other choices. Even Elvis based some of his tunes on Classics (It's Now or Never, Wooden Heart, Can't Help Falling in Love - all early 1960s).
2. Mixing up Rock and Modern Jazz - haven't started this one yet.
3. Arranging other people's material - the basis of much (modern) Jazz.
4. Stuff I haven't considered yet... time is short :o)
And these threads are part of a single strand.
MarkCertif1ed 18:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I saw you reverted back to the boy/girl stuff in the article's into [1]. Not that I disagree with what you say, but I find it does not look serious and also implies that the other genres were mostly about this, what would be quite challengeable. I prefer the other version as prog rock sometimes address love affairs too, whereas perhaps not in its early days. -- Childhood's End 12:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly why I removed it - it would be fine to talk about the change towards relationship matters in Neo-Prog, but the number of such songs produced during the main phase of Prog Rock can probably be summarised as "More Fool Me".
Of course, I'm generalising for effect, but as an identifying characteristic, the lyrics represented the final breakaway that the Beatles started in popular music, and provide a stark contrast to lyrics in other genres of music at the time. Only Hard Rock/Heavy Metal concerned itself with such fantastical themes, as far as I'm aware.
Maybe this should be clarified better - because the lyrics of Prog are surely one of their most defining characteristics?
Maybe we should try to keep characteristics completely out of the introduction?
So much work, so little time :o)
MarkCertif1ed 17:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll go with that, as it's more important to emphasise the fantasy/philosophy side of things, but I still don't see how it's challengeable - I can't think of many examples of boy/girl relationship topics in the original Prog bands material - and I don't count "Nights in White Satin" as Prog Rock...
However, almost every pop song until the release of "Revolver" (1966) was concerned with such matters - I can't see how that's challengeable, as it's a fact. It was the most popular theme, and to me, it's one difference that begins to define prog rock, and another reason the Beatles were so important in its development.
Pop songs prior to 1966 that deviate from this norm are generally curios or one-offs - unless you can think of some good examples?
I'm not going to change this again, as I'm not convinced a discussion of the lyrical content belongs in the introduction any more - but I'm more concerned with the rest of the article and getting it into a readable, non-baised and laundry-list-free state - and hopefully go up a grade in the process!
MarkCertif1ed 10:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Any oddities in this section? It seems to be the least challenged and most consistent - but is it right? MarkCertif1ed 10:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that "rock opera" was a characteristic of Prog Rock - it's more a type of concept album. Is there a problem with this? MarkCertif1ed 10:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the discussion of the lyrics belongs here
MarkCertif1ed 10:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Improved the overall readability of this section by logical re-ordering and bullet-points. I'm now thinking that "Stage Theatrics" is one of these "Other Characteristics". The whole paragraph could be chopped down and made into a bullet point. I think that references should be limited to Gabriel's costumes, Emerson's daggers and keyboard antics, and Wakeman's cape - although I'm tempted to mention Knights on horseback on ice in the Albert Hall. All of these are famous and easily verifiable tales that illustrate both the excitement and the excesses of Progressive Rock.
MarkCertif1ed 06:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Other characteristics Poetic, conceptually-themed or fantasy-based lyrics.
>>Maybe some f'examples in here to flesh it out - it's a bit of a bald statement otherwise.
The advancement of technology was always a prime element in progressive rock, especially in electronics.
>>Not fantastic - and not really a "prime" element - consider Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant.
In keyboards, the Mellotron was generally a signature sound in many progressive acts like The Moody Blues, King Crimson or Genesis.
>>Badly worded, but important point.
In the late 1970s, King Crimson's Robert Fripp along with Brian Eno developed his own patented version of electronic gadgetry called Frippertronics using analog tape loops which he still uses today in a digital format.
>>Too much on one item, and wrong section to boot.
>>Missing the electronics and spacey effects of Pink Floyd and Hawkwind, the (B3) Hammond Organ, Moog, etc. Also consider Tangerine Dream, White Noise, Beatles (used all/most), Kraftwerk - probably others.
>>Maybe Keyboards rather than technological developments.
>>While we're at it, what about other unusual instrumentation? Examples = Ian Anderson, Peter Gabriel, Nik Turner, Andy Latimer (etc.) flutes, the many instruments of Gentle Giant, Sax in King Crimson, and so on.
>>There was also the tendency of some Prog Rock bands to play quotations or excerpts from Classical pieces - or even interpretations of entire works; notably Exseption (almost no stone unturned!), Magma (especially Carl Orff), Renaissance (Bach and Beethoven), ELP (Mussorgsky! - et al.).
Concept albums, or albums with an overarching theme: These concepts became very lengthy and elaborate in the mid 1970s peak of Progressive Rock, resulting in packages that extended to 2 or even 3 vinyl discs' worth of music (approx 45 minutes per disc). Concepts of Progressive Rock albums would range from historical through fantastical to metaphysical, and even, in the case of Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, poking fun at concept albums.
The music is often used theatrically to provide devices or ambient soundscapes that aurally describe scenes, events or other aspects of the concept; For example, the use of leitmotif to represent the various characters in Genesis' "Harold the Barrel", and the use of clocks and cash registers to represent time and money in Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon.
The packaging of the album as a part of the overall artistic concept: This trend began with The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and played a major part in the marketing of progressive rock. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean for his work with Yes and Storm Thorgerson and his studio Hipgnosis for their work with Pink Floyd.
>>Move closer to packaging for better continuity. MarkCertif1ed 13:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This section is messy and needs working into bite-size paragraphs that people are actually going to read and enjoy, with less tales of favourite bands and their exploits and more potted factual discussions for examples.
The difference is subtle, but is the difference between having this page look like it was written by a fanboy, and making it look like an encyclopaedia article. MarkCertif1ed 10:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This is generally good, but maybe needs a bit of tidying. The final paragraph, particularly, is too long, messy, and includes vague examples of favourite pieces. MarkCertif1ed 10:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, cut the offending paragraph from the article, and will do a re-hash on this page over this weekend.
Here's the original text;
" The Who first tackled the rock opera form with " A Quick One While He's Away" from their 1966 album A Quick One. The Yardbirds' Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page composed " Beck's Bolero" in 1966 which reworks Maurice Ravel's Boléro. Pink Floyd's earliest albums showed progressive elements. The band 1-2-3 (later named Clouds) experimented with song structures, improvisation and multi-layered arrangements. Psychedelic rockers continued this experimental trend and began to compose long, complex songs such as Iron Butterfly's " In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" or "1983...(A Merman Should I Turn to Be)" by Jimi Hendrix. Frank Zappa's early work is also considered progressive. Many other bands began to experiment with blends of rock and jazz, a style that became known as jazz-rock. In the UK, Soft Machine was a prominent early jazz-rock band."
As will be seen, there's absolutely no flow - it's an unreadable list in a style that is a complete mismatch to the earlier part of the article. Much of it is dubious too - and much could be filed under "so what?". Zappa is mentioned in the early paragraphs - the list goes on. MarkCertif1ed 20:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Current Text with >>comments
Precursors In the late 1800s, the French composer Claude Debussy began using whole tone scales and modes now commonly associated with jazz, to break away from conventional diatonic harmony. In the 1910s, the Russian composer Igor Stravinsky used innovative rhythms, lush, unique timbres, dissonances, and Russian folk (pagan) motifs in his ballet Rite of Spring. In the early 1920s, German composer Arnold Schoenberg developed a new method of composition known as Serialism, which led to the evolution of avante-garde music.
In the 1930s, French composer Olivier Messiaen used the newly invented electronic instrument, the Ondes Martenot in compositions. In the 1940s, the composers Pierre Schaeffer and Pierre Henry began using the early tape recorder in the creation of compositions that would become known as musique concrete. Soon after, Karlheinz Stockhausen and others began to compose music entirely by electronic instruments. In the early to mid 1950s, "Cool Jazz" or "Modal Jazz" came about through the work of jazz maestros such as Miles Davis and later, John Coltrane. By the 1960s, Avant-Garde or Free Jazz was firmly established as due to recordings by Ornette Coleman and Charles Mingus.
The experimental period of rock music began in the mid 1960s with the studio work of The Beatles, who by then had given up touring. The influences of Stockhausen are apparent in the 1966 recordings "Rain", "She Said, She Said", and the tape experiment from the Revolver album, "Tomorrow Never Knows". The Beatles used these techniques extensively on Magical Mystery Tour and Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Sergeant Pepper is widely acknowledged as the first album to use the recording studio, and the artistic possibilities it affords, as an "instrument". In the late 1960s, Beatles songs and albums began incorporating many psychedelic rock elements and they also began combining instruments from classical music, Eastern music and improvisatory music.
http://egrefin.free.fr/eng/mellotron/melhist.php: Graham Bond's Organisation, Moody Blues, Mannfred Mann, Floyd - also Kinks and Stones (check which songs). M400 wasn the model used by most early Prog groups, not the MkII, as used by the aforementioned bands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellotron - mentions some songs
http://www.mikepinder.com/mellotron.shtml - a nice link to Mike Pinder's site!
http://www.theatreorgans.com/grounds/docs/history.html - not sure how useful this is
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/hammondb3.asp - Sound on Sound is always good reading, but again, journalistic, and drools all over the instrument.
http://www.hammond-organ.com/History/hammond_lore.htm - interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_organ - of course
http://www.progarchives.com/history-of-vintage-keyboards-used-in-progressive-rock.asp
http://www.jerryfielden.com/essays/electromusic.htm - interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_rock - historical links
Then there's the Moog... http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/272/41/
Then there are the people that were using the technology to make music already - in addition to the well-known and credited ones;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Riley
Now this is where the real work starts to be needed, as opposed to general tidy-up. There's the missing link between the "Precursors" and the Early Bands to consider (Moodies, The Nice, etc. - you could even "mention" the Who, if their contribution pre-1969 is felt to be important and influential).
The overall discussion is messy and doesn't make for good reading MarkCertif1ed 10:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if "early bands" is a good title - The First Wave, perhaps, or The Birth of Prog? Not sure about either. Glory Days? The Golden Age of Prog?
New Running order possibility;
Precursors (not bad - sums it up) (up to 1965ish)
(In addiion to those on the current page): Miles Davies, Stan Getz, Lennie Tristano, Dave Brubeck, Jaques Loussier (Django?), Swingle Singers, Gerschwin, Del Shannon, Shadows, Kinks, Animals
Proto-Prog (1965ish - 1969)
The First Wave (1969 - 1972)
CORE: King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP
Tier 1: Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Van der Graf Generator, Hawkwind
Tier 2: Kraftwerk, Can, Caravan, Soft Machine, Zappa, Moody Blues, Barclay James Harvest, Hatfield and the North, Arzakan, Egg, PFM, Magma, Gong, National Health, Supersister, Focus, Jan Akkerman (solo), Khan, Ekseption
Tier 3 (related, but not full-blown Prog): Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Colosseum II, Strawbs
Tier 4 (Obviously not Prog, but not "Standard" Rock: Bakerloo, May Blitz, High Tide, Quatermass, Fuzzy Duck, Pussy, Electric Light Orchestra (Tier 3?), Wishbone Ash
The Second Wave (1973-1975)
Camel, Supertramp, Triumvirat, Rush (dubious - first 2 Rush albums sound like Led Zeppelin)
The lost years (1976 - 1981) ...obviously, not completely lost - fab albums from Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett and Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, etc. However, many prog stalwarts see these years as somehow "lost" because of Punk/New Wave.
Neo Prog (1982 - 1988?????)
Prog in the Nineties
Prog in the new Millenium
Somewhere in here Prog Metal may fit in, as it's all but replaced "proper" prog. However, I'm of the opinion that these are two separate genres, and that "Classic Prog" merely plays an influential role on Prog Metal - the latter did not actually evolve from the former, but instead took on some of its characteristics.
MarkCertif1ed 13:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Is this a good title? Is this a good discussion? Again, this is long, rambling and messy (a bit like a Wakeman solo). Needs a lot of work MarkCertif1ed 10:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely - that's the best place for the discussion - I'm just setting up a load of scratchboards here so I can doodle a few of my own ideas (and obviously, include other's thoughts), and keep these thoughts together, without making the articles discussion page go into unecessary depth. MarkCertif1ed 11:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Mind? I'd actively encourage you to do so!
It's an open talk page - the more the merrier (and the less off-topic stuff on the article page!), but I might be a bit more open with my opinions here... it's MY page, after all :o) MarkCertif1ed 13:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
As above MarkCertif1ed 10:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The 1980s revival is widely known as Neo-Progressive Rock and the unquestionable spearleaders of this "movement" were Marillion. Although the "revival" took place in the early 1980s - the point in time can be narrowed down to the release of "Script for a Jester's Tear" - it was already in full flow.
The original Silmarillion and Chemical Alice (Mark Kelly) were gigging around Aylesbury around 1979, and Twelfth Night released their first vinyl album "Live at the Target" the same year. Twelfth Night had been gigging for some time and had released many demo tapes including their first cassette album prior to this.
IQ are important to this movement, as are, probably, Pallas and Pendragon. Off the top of my head. Other Neo Prog bands here:
It's worth noting that the New Wave of British Heavy Metal - or, more accurately, the second wave, which included Def Leppard, etc - not the first wave that included Iron Maiden, were influenced by the re-awakening of the Prog monster.
Examples; Def Leppard, Saxon ("Frozen Rainbow"), Black Sabbath (Heaven and Hell), Blue Oyster Cult (Cultosaurus... and Fire...), and most importantly, Diamond Head - 50% of "Canterbury" is pop nonsense because of the hassles the group had with record companies, but the rest is gold. "Am I Evil" shows a clear progression from the Led Zeppelin style, and, along with the Rodney Matthews cover, features fantastical lyrics and progressive approaches to song structures that are on a par with much Neo-Prog (although not, of course, with the Prog originators). Magnum are probably important too - but I don't know their work well enough.
Later in the 1980s, we have Metallica, whose "Master..." and "...And Justice..." are such clear influences on Dream Theater, who not only covered "Master..." and used Metallica riffs verbatim in their songs (e.g. Sanitarium, One), but clearly based many of their song structures on Metallica songs as early as "Ride the Lightning" - ostensibly a standard rock song with a bridge in multiple contrasting parts.
Not wishing to get into the background of Prog Metal here, as that's another article - but the fact that all this was happening at the same time is possibly worthy of consideration - and may delight Prog metal fans in providing useful links between the genre and the one under discussion (there are others, of course, but I'm getting way off topic...).
Also worth considering the work of King Crimson and The Enid in this period - hugely inventive and true to the original spirit. Maybe Shub Niggurath - if anyone has actually heard them? Zappa/Vai?
MarkCertif1ed 16:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't want to go too far down the metal route, but the Wishbone Ash (twin guitar) -> Judas Priest (virtually invented both thrash and Prog Metal) -> Iron Maiden -> Queensryche tree is a bit too much to ignore. Maybe in the Prog Metal article (which I haven't even looked at yet...). Spooky Tooth and Scorps too, then there's the Tristano/Evans -> Satriani link and the Zappa -> Vai link... MarkCertif1ed 17:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
As above MarkCertif1ed 10:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The discussion is OK, but again, needs to be broken up and freed of laundry lists MarkCertif1ed 10:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
New Running order possibility;
Precursors (not bad - sums it up) (up to 1965ish)
(In addiion to those on the current page): Miles Davies, Stan Getz, Lennie Tristano, Dave Brubeck, Jaques Loussier (Django?), Swingle Singers, Gerschwin, Del Shannon, Shadows, Kinks, Animals
Proto-Prog (1965ish - 1969)
The First Wave (1969 - 1972)
CORE: King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP
Tier 1: Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Van der Graf Generator, Hawkwind
Tier 2: Kraftwerk, Can, Caravan, Soft Machine, Zappa, Moody Blues, Barclay James Harvest, Hatfield and the North, Arzakan, Egg, PFM, Magma, Gong, National Health, Supersister, Focus, Jan Akkerman (solo), Khan, Ekseption, Rick Wakeman
Tier 3 (related, but not full-blown Prog): Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Colosseum II, Strawbs
Tier 4 (Obviously not Prog, but not "Standard" Rock: Bakerloo, May Blitz, High Tide, Quatermass, Fuzzy Duck, Pussy, Electric Light Orchestra (Tier 3?), Wishbone Ash
The Second Wave (1973-1975)
Camel, Supertramp, Triumvirat, Rush (dubious - first 2 Rush albums sound like Led Zeppelin)
The lost years (1976 - 1981) ...obviously, not completely lost - fab albums from Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett and Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, etc. However, many prog stalwarts see these years as somehow "lost" because of Punk/New Wave.
King Crimson, The Enid, Steve Hackett, Steve Hillage, Gong, Genesis, Rush, Yes (?)
Neo Prog (1982 - 1988?????)
Marillion, Twelfth Night, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, The Enid, Genesis
Prog in the Nineties
Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, Radiohead
Prog in the new Millenium
Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, Radiohead, Muse, Pure Reason Revolution.
Somewhere in here Prog Metal may fit in, as it's all but replaced "proper" prog. However, I'm of the opinion that these are two separate genres, and that "Classic Prog" merely plays an influential role on Prog Metal - the latter did not actually evolve from the former, but instead took on some of its characteristics.
Currently, only ProgArchives.com seems to recognise Proto-Prog as a valid category.
It makes complete sense, to a historian, as there are many bands who were working on ideas that would later become amalgamated into Progressive Rock.
At the forefront of these is surely Pink Floyd, whose first two albums both contain pieces that are still deeply influential to this day in many bands considered to be Progressive (or related), and, of course, a huge number of so-called Krautrock bands that used those pieces as springboards for their own work.
The specific pieces are Astronomy Domine, Interstellar Overdrive, Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun and Saucerful of Secrets.
Saucerful of Secrets is particularly interesting because of the architectural construction of the piece (3 of Floyd were architecture students - find source). There are 4 sections, each with a distinct character, yet the piece is clearly one composition - the transitions between the sections are seamless. Within the tight structure, there is a high degree of improvisation and experimentation - not to mention random noise. This is best highlighted in the "Live At Pompeii" film.
Pink Floyd are important not just because of these pieces and their influence, but also because of the light show and sound canvas that they developed to make up for the band's preference to stay somewhat anonymous on stage. This produced a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, where the visuals and music were inextricably interlinked - a theme that the Floyd would continue developing until at least The Wall, in which the entire show was more like a work of theater than a pop music concert.
The light show included the revolutionary use of heated oils projected onto screens.
The sound canvas included a special device that I forget the name of that they had to develop to control the multi-channel sound. Speakers fed sound from different channels around the venue - there was a plan, can't remember if it was realised, to put a speaker under the dancefloor to complete the surround sound vision.
The artwork on Pink Floyd's album sleeves was revolutionary, as were the lyrics, which dealt with fantastical/sci-fi/fairytale topics, as well as more mundane things related with a psychedelic slant (similar to Kaleidoscope).
Next in importance are the Moody Blues, who many argue invented Progressive Rock. "Days of Future Passed" is generally over-rated, being a collection of simple pop songs interlinked with orchestral interludes. The idea was to create an uninterrupted flow to the album so that it came across more as a kind of symphonic-styled suite - but the reality is somewhat different. Nevertheless, it's a benchmark in the evolution of Progressive Rock.
Their later albums showed marked progression in this field, and for the entireity of the "Golden age", they remain a second tier Prog band, mainly because the individual compositions on the albums remain standard pop/rock songs, and are non-complex - even though the albums are clear conceptual wholes and contain use of instruments recognised as coming under the Prog Rock umbrella. It's a difficult distinction, particularly when you also consider the work of Pink Floyd and Hawkwind - so maybe it's not the right one?
As with the Pink Floyd, the Moodies' artwork is representative of Prog, their use of the Mellotron as a signature sound and use of other electronic effects and orchestral instruments integral to their sound. Also worth considering earlier use of the Mellotron - I did find out who was reportedly first to use it, but can't remember where I recorded that. Beatles used it on "Pepper", of course, as did Traffic and many other bands after the release of Pepper.
Next up, The Nice. Need to explore more, but seem to remember that Emerson was inspired by the Bach/Jazz incorporations I alluded to by mentioning Loussier and the Swingle Singers.
Then Procul Harum. I'm not familiar with much of their early work, but the first album doesn't seem very "Classically inspired", as many fans would have you believe. OK, there's the pop song "Whiter Shade of Pale" and it's obvious Bach connection - but that's a bit of a gimmick to my ears.
Next Tommorow. Steve Howe, of course, went on to Yes, their use of the Mellotron and backwards tape in "Hole in My Shoe" is a bit of an oddity, rather than part of their style. "Twink" went on to form The Aquarian Age, whose one EP is a mini Prog masterpiece IMHO. He then formed "Twink", which released a Hawkwind style LP a few years before Hawkwind did.
As for other Proto-Prog bands, we've got quite a list;
1-2-3/Clouds have a lot of anecdotal evidence - and a big black hole in terms of period documentation and recordings (not unusual for the 1960s...). Need to establish a list of bands prior to 1967 that were doing interesting things - from the prominent (like Floyd and the Nice) to the lesser known but possibly first and most influential overall (like Fifty Foot Hose/the Ethix and 1-2-3. Recordings exist of Clouds, but it's not clear a) what, specifically, they were doing as 1-2-3, or b) whether other bands really did get their inspiration from them or it was simply co-incidence and "everyone" was being experimental. It was an experimental time, and the Beatles led from the front, while Pink Floyd and the Softies dominated the underground - hence these 3 are well researched and documented.
Where did 1-2-3 get their ideas from? Ritchie especially! Perhaps it was from the jazzers, like Loussier, who combined Bach (etc) with jazz?
Links;
Fifty Foot Hose/the Ethix:
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/thebookofseth/96 http://www.mindspring.com/~acheslow/AuntMary/bang/hose_intro.html http://www.mindspring.com/~acheslow/AuntMary/bang/hose.html http://www.terrascope.co.uk/MyBackPages/Fifty%20Foot%20Hose%20interview.htm http://www.o-art.org/history/50s&_60s/Trips/50/50foot.html http://www.answers.com/topic/fifty-foot-hose-1?cat=entertainment http://www.anthologyrecordings.com/release.asp?album=SzKUM4yENNv - fantastic link, connects this band to Varese, who was also deeply influential on Frank Zappa. "Poem Electronique" is mentioned - and how could anyone not be mesmerised by such a work? Also mentioned is Morton Subotnik, the primary influence on Silver Apples, and Delia Derbyshire/White Noise.
OK, biased reviews of the music, but all describe what to listen for, specify precise influences on the band, and the recording is easily available through Amazon to verify that this 1967 recording is something quite unique.
Found this on Julian Cope's site;
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/review/1793 - hurrah! Messaien was not just a Classical composer - he was the original progressive musician.
...more lesser known but highly important bands to follow....
Something like;
Before the release of ITCOTCK, there was a "movement", predominantly in the United States and in the Underground circuits of UK music of progressive music, most of which was happening in the sphere of Rock music. There is fragmentary evidence (one piece so far!) that this was known at the time as progressive rock. It was not, however, the same as the music that became christened Progressive Rock (or Prog) in the mid 1970s - indeed, the term "Prog" came along later still, according to sources (need to source all of this!).
To confuse matters, the term "progressive rock" has also been widely used to describe bands who played rock music that did something a bit different to the run-of-the-mill, or added experimental elements to standard rock songs, e.g Led Zeppelin.
But the experimental rock music that predated Prog Rock was largely in the realms of psychedelic rock, where new sounds were craved to create ever newer and wilder textures in the music, notable use was made of the sitar, the Mellotron, the flute and the Hammond organ.
Psychedelic rock often incorporated free-jazz stylings - or at least, made this claim to lend authenticity to garage style jam sessions - but some managed to rise above the random jams and produce coherent music with relatively free and loose forms. The bands that came to influence Progressive Rock went one stage further, and tightened up the structures of their pieces while leaving plenty of room for experimentation, or went the other way and used classical styles as a springboard for improvisation.
...kinda reasonable, but needs work and links.
MarkCertif1ed 17:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
There is often confusion between the two terms - the noun describing the genre of Prog Rock (Genesis et al) and progressive rock music, which is an accurate term to define a rock band that accomplishes something that "progresses" the genre of rock music - or takes it to a new level, e.g. bands such as Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Scorpions, UFO, Uriah Heep, etc.
This is the whole reason, in my opinion, that bands such as Yes, Genesis, ELP et al are widely referred to as Prog or Prog Rock rather than using the full title of the genre. It makes the distinction between the two - you'd never hear The Who referred to as Prog Rock, for example, but many believe that they were a progressive rock band, and for rational reasons.
The real distinction is in the music, of course - while Prog Rock is almost fully composed, progressive rock incorporates a much higher level of improvisation, and songs of this type are usually standard rock songs (verse, chorus, etc.) with extended bridges - notable examples being "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zeppelin and "Warrior" by Wishbone Ash.
Examples of Prog Rock where this simply is not the case are extensive, but "The Musical Box" by Genesis and "On Reflection" by Gentle Giant are excellent examples.
"Hocus Pocus" by Focus is a very interesting middle ground, as the structure is essentially verse/chorus - but the treatment given to the material is notably different, and the quality of the improvisations shows careful attention to structuring and an overall dramatic picture. It is, however, riff-based - the riff was used by Metallica for the song "Blitzkrieg" (B-side of "Creeping Death"), and hence this, along with a lot of other Focus material, forms part of the Progressive Metal family tree. Focus are a particularly interesting case, with their "Hamburger Concerto", and other pieces, many of which feature repeating riffs - as with "Classic" rock and extended bridges with improvisation. The main difference with Focus' improvisations lie in the advanced techniques of the musicians - particularly guitarist/lutenist Jan Akkerman. Steve Hillage's solo albums (and "Arzakan and Khan") (apart from Fish Rising) all fall into similar middle ground - hence their 2nd tiering. But I get off-topic...
There is a widespread similar confusion between Art Rock - the genre that encompasses David Bowie, Roxy Music et al, and art rock music, which is an all-encompassing term that accurately describes any rock music with artistic ideals (including Art Rock and Progressive Rock as genres) - as opposed to rock music that has the clear goal of "simply" writing rock music for the fun of it, to get the girls, etc. Such bands might include Status Quo - with one or two exceptions in their mid 1970s output and their early music which is clearly psychedelic pop/rock.
The difference between Prog and progressive rock music should be clarified in the first paragraph, with a link to a new article on Progressive Rock Music that clearly makes the distinction - and would include "controversial" bands such as The Who with no difficuly.
MarkCertif1ed 11:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I understand that you have a vision for the article and that you're putting a lot of thought and effort into it and have been doing so for months. I can see that you viewed my edits as throwing a monkey wrench into your plans and I can see why that upset you. I'd much rather work with you than against you. You have to know, though, that Wikipedia warns its users that content they submit will be edited mercilessly and that they would not have it any other way. If that's going to be endlessly frustrating for you, then you're better off applying your efforts to sites like progarchives.com where you have some measure of control over the material you submit. That said, I know you are a very valuable contributer to this article and I do not want to see you go. I know you're more knowledgeable on the subject than I, but I'm not just some Who fanboy. I have a wide-ranging knowledge of much of rock music, including progressive rock. If my text is not well formatted and does not flow well with the text above it, I would be grateful if you could clean it up for me. I'm just trying to get across the wealth of rock acts that contributed to the foundations of progressive rock in the 1960's. Mentioning the Beatles and only the Beatles strikes me as wrongfully dismissive of the many notable and important contributions of other sixties acts. I'd like to add the Byrds, next. My apologies for angering you. The feeling was certainly mutual, but I hope we can work together constructively rather than destructively. 74.77.208.52 10:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, it was a tough job - and I have not deliberately left stuff in to make you look bad, but I did have to leave in stuff I wanted to remove because other editors replied to it, and I can't in all fairness remove their comments without their permission. OK, I could, but it wouldn't be right... Please scan through the edits I've made, and verify that they meet with your approval - I've made notes in all cases where the edits are, and left some of the discussion, because of its direct relationship to the article. If you want to take anything out of individual paragraphs that you wish to withdraw, you'll need to do it yourself - but I think I've removed the unecessary arguing stuff without colouring it one way or the other.
Hello. You recently contributed to a discussion about original research and sourcing at the List of musical works in unusual time signatures. I am requesting comments from the wider community in hopes of settling a dispute there. Please visit this section of the talk page if you wish to further contribute to the discussion. Thank you. Nick Graves 02:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
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I see you were listed as a participant in the League of Copy-Editors so it seems likely. The thing is the Military history wikiproject urgently needs prose pros to help with our best articles. Milhist covers a broad range of interesting and varied subjects from film to biography, battles to weaponry, and Roman emperors to twentieth-century dictators. In Milhist, A-Class has become the last port of call before FAC and we are looking for people to help identify prose and MoS issues at A-Class A-Class Reviews and help fix them prior to featured article candidacy. We also have a copy-editing section in our Logistics Dept and that can always use experienced copy-editors. For most of our articles, you don't need to be a specialist in the subject matter, just good with words.
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Hi. I was wondering if you'd be able to take a look at the Frank Zappa article and perform a copyedit on it? ( Ibaranoff24 ( talk) 07:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC))
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Be Black Hole Sun ( talk · contribs)
I've been wondering about that page for a while, and I suppose it's about time we get around to it. If you have some time to help, let me know. I will need lots of sources, so if you have some old articles around, I'm all ears. I will probably set up a stripped-down WIP page sometime soon, but I won't be able to do too much until I get some good reliable sources. Any help you can provide would be much appreciated. 71.203.185.108 ( talk) 22:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
What a Mess!!!!
Loads of horrible lists and unnecessary quotes make this article a hugely unpleasant reading experience -and mostly just dull and pointless.
Time for some surgery, methinks...
Hi, if you make large insertions like this, it would be nice to know what your sources are and how it is verifiable. If you cite a book or an article, you can use the <ref></ref> tags to reference the source. Otherwise it might be assumed that the passage is not based on verifiable source material. Thanks a lot, -- hroest 10:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I started the procedure to have the New Wave of British Heavy Metal article promoted to WP:FA. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New Wave of British Heavy Metal/archive1 needs discussants. Since you were very active in the past on the article's talk page, I am hoping you might give some comments. Lewismaster ( talk) 08:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)