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Hi, and welcome to the Military history WikiProject! As you may have guessed, we're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to military history.
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I have reverted your deletion of "where she enjoys cheese" from the Svetlana Alliluyeva article, because it's quite obvious...who doesn't enjoy eating cheese? Naaah, just kidding. Good catch and good wikipedia-ing! Cheers, -- LeyteWolfer 04:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Maria, how can you say that being "granted" independence is not a British POV. I also provided a citation, the first Prime Minister of India said we achieved freedom from the British. And why should the article not have ANY criticims of the empire at all when there are clearly many present. I will not undo your edit but will wait for a reply. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations 04:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi. If it's a matter of point of view, which I don't think it is, it's certainly not my point of view - I added a reference from Niall Ferguson's book the relevant page of which you can read here [1]. I think it is accepted fact that Holland was a pioneer of capitalism (e.g. it had the first stock exchange, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange), and its mechanisms of raising money for colonial ventures were well ahead of England or any other nation at the time. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
This is getting too indented! back to square one.
I guess Barbarians fits into the current English mode of apologising for everything. But that leads to its own problems. For example, some historians have questioned the "morality" of the decision to end slavery, saying that it had good economic grounds. Similarly, the "moral" decision to return the British Empire (well most of it) has been criticised as racist, and that economic (too expensive) or practical (got kicked out) grounds are closer to the "truth". Mr Palin, Mr Jones, and their ilk seem to fall into this trap rather more readily than one might expect.
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
16:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello and thank you for contacting me regarding the Bachelet edit conflict. Unfortunately I know of no researcher that has undertaken an investigation into the Bachelet case and most of the international news media has simply accepted Bachelet's own declarations on the matter, while the truth appears much more complex. While I am aware that a newspaper article is perhaps not the best source, this article in particular appears realiable. I reproduce the Spanish original and my English translation below of the relevant paragraphs:
Las torturas y la verdad Pues ella saltó en las encuestas cuando, tras declararse torturada por los militares e hija de un general fallecido a causa de torturas, apareció como ministra de Defensa, trepada en un tanque y en cordial convivencia con militares. Todo un símbolo ante el cual Chile entero se prosternó. Pero ¿fue torturada? ¿Murió su padre debido a las torturas? El apresamiento y juicio del general Bachelet no se debieron a que él administrara el sistema de distribución de alimentos durante la UP, sino por su pertenencia a un grupo de oficiales, simpatizantes de Allende, que se habían reunido reiteradamente en el Banco del Estado con dirigentes socialistas y del MIR para planificar una acción contra la base aérea "El Bosque". Los detalles de esa conspiración constan en los llamados "procesos de la FACh", documentados en el libro del periodista democratacristiano Ricardo Boizard, "Proceso a una traición". Y tampoco el general murió debido a torturas, sino por una afección cardiaca. En 1969 había tenido una seguidilla de infartos, tras una actividad deportiva. Estando preso, en 1974, fue derivado al Hospital de la FACh debido a la misma afección. Cuando volvió a la cárcel, en la mañana del 12 de marzo de 1974, y tras participar en un partido de básquetbol, sufrió un paro cardíaco y falleció. Así lo ha referido su compañero de celda, el capitán Raúl Vergara Meneses, testigo del desenlace, quien sin embargo también dice que "el general murió en la celda que compartíamos después de ser torturado. El ex parlamentario socialista Eric Schnake, preso en el mismo recinto, tampoco dudó en atribuir la muerte del general a una práctica deportiva incompatible con su condición cardiaca. La verosimilitud de esa explicación resultó tristemente confirmada por el posterior fallecimiento del único hijo varón del general Bachelet, a causa de un ataque cardíaco, a los 54 años de edad. Tampoco Michelle ni su madre fueron torturadas. Yo vi personalmente a la primera declarar en televisión, recién designada ministra de Salud, que no lo había sido, pero que su madre sí. No puedo precisar el canal ni la fecha exacta, pero estoy cierto de lo que vi y oí. El 23.04.00 declaró a Raquel Correa, de "El Mercurio": "Nos llevaron a Villa Grimaldi y después a Cuatro Álamos. Estuve con los ojos vendados y recibí golpes". No habló de torturas. Pero, finalmente, el 14.11.04, ya en campaña, declaró a la misma periodista: "Sí, me torturaron... me cuesta recordar detalles. Como que se me bloquearon los malos recuerdos....". En definitiva, estuvo nueve días detenida, y no quince o más, como ahora afirma. Tampoco fue exiliada, pero su madre sí, por lo que Michelle la acompañó. Doña Ángela tampoco fue torturada, según se desprende de su declaración a "La Segunda" del 18.11.04: "En el centro de torturas fuimos sometidas a violentos interrogatorios", dijo. El diario agregó: "No relata torturas físicas a su persona, pero sí un duro tratamiento". Esa es la verdad. Pero "¿qué es la verdad?", como preguntara Pilatos en "La Pasión de Cristo". Pues ha sido la no verdad la importante para gestar el fenómeno Bachelet y el primer lugar en las encuestas. Torture and the truth She [Bachelet] jumped in the polls when, after declaring herself tortured by the military and the daughter of a general killed because of torture, appeared as Minister of Defense, inside a tank and in a cordial relationship with a military. A symbol which all of Chile praised. But was she tortured? Did her father die because of torture? The arrest and trial of General Bachelet was not because he administered the system of distribution of food supplies under the Popular Unity government, but because of his membership in a group of officials, sympathizers of Allende, who met continuously in the State Bank (Banco del Estado) with Socialist and MIR chiefs to plan action against the "El Bosque" aerial base. The details of this conspiracy are revealed in the so-called "processes of the Air Force", documented in the book Proceso a una traición by Christian Democrat reporter Ricardo Boizard. An neither did the General die because of torture, but because of a heart problem. In 1969 he had had a series of strokes after sports-related activity. Under arrest, in 1974, he was taken to the Air Force Hospital because of the same problem. When he returned to his jail cell, on the morning of March 12, 1974, and after participating in a basketball match, he suffered cardiac arrest and died. This is what his jailmate, Captain Raúl Vergara Meneses, witness to the event, said, although he also declared that "the General died in the cell that we shared after being tortured". Former Socialist parlamentarian Eric Schnake, detained in the same jail, also did not hesitate in attributing the death of the General to sports activities incompatible with his heart condition. The truthfulness of this explanation was sadly confirmed with the later death of the only male son of General Bachelet because of cardiac attack at age 54. Neither were Michelle and her mother tortured. I personally saw the former declare in television, right after being appointed Minister of Health, that she had not been tortured, but her mother had. I cannot remember the channel or the exact date, but I am sure I saw it and heard it. On April 23, 2000, she told El Mercurio's Raquel Correa, "We were taken to Villa Grimaldi and then to Cuatro Álamos. My eyes were covered and I recieved punches". She did not talk about torture. But finally, on November 14, 2004, during electoral campaigning, she told the same reporter, "Yes, I was tortured... I can't remember the details. It's like my bad memories have been deleted". She was detained for nine days, and not fifteen or more like she now affirms. Neither was she exiled, but her mother was, so Michelle accompanied her. Mrs. Ángela [Bachelet's mother] was also not tortured, according to her own declaration to La Segunda on November 18, 2004: "In the torture center we were subjected to violent interrogations", she said. The newspaper added, "She did not talk of physical torture, but yes of harsh treatment". That is the truth. But "what is the truth?", like Pilate asks in The Passion of the Christ. Because truth has not been important for the gestation of the Bachelet phenomenon and her first place in the polls. Pérez de Arce, Hermógenes. "Michelle Bachelet, ¿quién es realmente usted?". El Mercurio 1/15/06. |
I really don't know whether this first Wikipedia's reliability standards, but it is a piece whose claims could be independently corroborated and is the only article which I have found that attempts to invesigate Bachelet's claims, instead of just repeating her own statements. There is a biography of Bachelet somewhere and I will try to get my hands on it to read what it says about her and her father's arrest.
Best regards, Marmaduque 01:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Very much appreciated. Especially the Spanish translation - my Spanish is only about a dozen words - literally :-)
So to play the "Devil's Advocate":
a) the "witness" could be re-interviewed to see if his story remains the same. Is this what you mean by "corroborated". Not all witnesses are entirely candid in their interviews - especially as a newspaper interview is not under oath, and many witnesses are less than candid even under oath. The article you quote seems to contain contradictory statements from both Mr Meneses and Ms Bachelet, but that is no reason to dismiss one-half of their statements - the conditions under which the statements were made, and the mental and emotional state of the individuals at the time has not been mentioned. Certainly, some people are very modest about their own suffering, while others seem to suffer a "martyr complex" and exagerate even the slightest inconvenience;
b) "Corroboration" usually involves looking at a number of different sources - a variety of witnesses, forensic evidence, documentary evidence. This, for example, is why the Holocaust is said to have happened (despite the denials of certain individuals and cultural groups) - the huge number of witness statements, the documentary evidence (the Nazi's, on the whole, kept very good records), and the forensic evidence (remains of some of the camps still exist. I myself have visited Auschwitz in '92, and although parts of the Birkenau site have been "re-constructed" both the narrative and the physical evidence are overwhelming). In the case of Mr Bachelet / Mr Schnake / Mr Meneses there certainly does not seem to be a single version of events from the witnesses, even in the article from which you quote, and there is no record of any forensic/physical examination of the claims;
c) The expression "torture" mmeans different things to different people. Amnesty International has one view, Mr Bush seems to have another, I suspect the Saudi police have another, and Mr Stalin certaily had another. So what is torture? What about holding a suspect's head underwater until they nearly drown, then pulling them out and asking them questions. It was very popular with the Gestapo while interviewing French Resistance subjects. I believe some governments think it is a good idea today. What about beating the soles of the suspect's feel with cables/rods (very popular, I understand, in Saudi Arabia). Ms Bachelet in one interview, when asked about torture, replied "Nothing involving electricity". Which means what? That statement doesn't even preclude "Medieaval" torture methods.
d) The reporter seems to have seized on an open statement of Ms Bachelet, and implied it means she said she was not tortured -"'We were taken to Villa Grimaldi and then to Cuatro Álamos. My eyes were covered and I recieved punches'. She did not talk about torture". That statement does not mean she was not tortured. The question (apparently) wasn't put to her. She may have been, for example, playing down on that aspect so as to avoid openly portraying herself as a "martyr". The best ever quote I have heard from someone plaing down a situation was from a Belgian guy who was an SS volunteer during the war. Henri Metalmann, or something very similar. He ws interviewed on a TV documentary. He said "But when you are young, you don't notice such things" about his injuries he picked up (he was discharged following his injured, but kept revolunteering until they let him back in). The injury to which he was referring was when he lost an arm and an eye on the Eastern Front.
e) Just because Mr Bachelet's son died of a (natural) heart attacka at 54 did not mean he did (as implied in the article) - there are a number of risk factors for coronary infarction, including diet, exercise, alcohol, stress (including being tortured), excessive exertion (including being tortured), as well as family proclivity.
So what do you think. The only person who appears to ahve made a clear statement in the article is Mr Schnake, and the circumstances under which he made that statement are unclear, and the statement itself isn't quoted.
As regards Bachelet mother and daughter, the suggestion that they were not tortured seems to be implied by a particular interpretation of several "open" statements.
Not much basis for "objective" truth, methinks.
So that's my bit, picking holes in your side
So what do you think?
And thanks again for discussing, not just "warring".
And I'm Still ready for that Putin arguement when you are ;-)
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
11:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Señor Director: En carta aparecida en esta sección, el capitán (r) Raúl Vergara afirma, pretendiendo desmentir un artículo mío, lo siguiente: "El general Bachelet no falleció ni durante ni después de un partido de básquetbol, sino en la mañana del 12 de marzo del 74, cuando recién se producía la apertura de las hacinadas e insalubres celdas donde se nos mantenía." El partido de básquetbol fue mencionado por el ex parlamentario socialista Eric Schnake, que compartió prisión con el general Bachelet, y también está mencionado en una investigación de dos alumnas de periodismo de la Universidad Diego Portales, Pamela Campusano y Silvana Celedón, que señala: "La mañana del 12 de marzo de 1974, Alberto Bachelet quiso jugar básquetbol para distraer su mente. Luego, cumpliendo con los turnos que se le habían designado esa semana, se dirigió a lavar los platos usados la noche anterior, mientras intentaba olvidar el infernal interrogatorio a que había sido sometido dos días atrás. Bajo las órdenes del coronel Horacio Otaíza, había sido sometido a un centenar de preguntas, las que lo habían dejado muy decaído y sintiendo fuertes malestares. Su ex colega de labores en la Secretaría Nacional de Distribución y actual compañero de celda, capitán Raúl Vergara, amaneció especialmente nervioso esa mañana, pues había sido notificado que ese día sería llevado a una cita. Mientras afeitaba su rostro, se percató de que Alberto estaba tumbado en el suelo. Rápidamente, llamó al comandante Yáñez, médico de la Fuerza Aérea, quien le aplicó los primeros auxilios, mientras otros compañeros golpeaban en forma desesperada la puerta de hierro que daba hacia la calle para pedir ayuda." Hermógenes Pérez de Arce Ibieta Mr. Editor, In a letter that appeared in this section, retired Captain Raúl Vergara affirms, trying to debunk one of my articles, that, "General Bachelet did not die during or after a basketball match, but on the morning of March 12 of '74, when the horrific and unhealthy cells where we were kept were just being opened." The basketall match was mentioned by the former Socialist parlamentarian Eric Schnake, who shared prison with General Bachelet, and was also mentioned in an investigaton by two journalism students of Diego Portales University, Pamela Campusano and Silvana Celedón, which says: "On the morning of March 12, 1974, Alberto Bachelet wanted to play basketball to distract his mind. Later, following the schedule given to him that week, he went to clean the dishes used last night, as he tried to forget the infernal interrogation that he has been subjected to two days ago. Under the orders of Coronel Horacio Otaíza, he has been subjected to hundreds of questions, which had left him very depressed and feeling very ill. His former colleague in the National Secretariat of Distribution and now jailmate, Captain Raúl Vergara, awakened especially nervious this morning, since he had been notified that this day he would be taken to an appointment. As he shaved his face, he noticed that Alberto was thrown on the ground. Quickly, he called Commander Yáñez, an Air Force medical doctor, who applied first aid, while other inmates hit the iron door that led to the street in desperation, calling for help." Hermógenes Pérez de Arce Ibieta Letters to the Editor. El Mercurio 1/19/06. |
Yes, it appears that democracy is not the first priority for most Russians, and I think that is a huge problem. This apathy towards democracy is what got people like Adolf Hitler, Ismail Haniyeh, Hugo Chávez, Evo Morales, and Salvador Allende power. And Putin's 82% [2] approval rating is not only bad for Russian democracy, which has never been strong, but for the entire world. Putin protected Saddam Hussein in Iraq before the invasion, and now he is protecting Iran. And he is truly acting like a bully against neighbouring nations who want stronger ties with the West (Estonia, Georgia, Ukraine). Putin is leading the world to another conflict with the United States, perhaps not a full-scale Cold War, but definitely a dangerous rivalry. At the same time, within Russia dissent is being slowly repressed. But ordinary Russian voters, like ordinary German voters in the 1930s and ordinary Venezuelan and Bolivian voters today, do not seem to care or notice... Marmaduque 17:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
a) Allende and his coalition came to power promising to destroy the capitalist system, even by violent means if necessary (numerous quotes available to back this up). He declared that he wanted to "increment the economic power of the State and expand the area of "social property" in expenso of the capitalist enterprises and of the burgeoise". He took over countless private companies, oftentimes illegally by encouraging conflicts between (armed) workers unions and the management. Allende, though the State Corporation of Development (Corporación Estatal de Fomento, CORFO), took control of the Chilean banking system, nationalizing numerous private banks. In order to buy more banks, the government raised taxes and printed massive amounts of money. Stocks fell because of investors' fear of government takeovers. Inflation obviously started rising rapidly and economic crisis took hold. Carlos Matus, Minister of the Economy, told Der Spiegel that, "By conventional economic criteria we are, in fact, in crisis[...] But what is crisis to some, for us is the solution." Because of this twisted logic, the government took no real steps to halt inflation. Claiming to be taking steps to stop the crisis, the government established maximum prices on basic products, making these products scarce. The government then created Juntas de Abastecimiento (Provision Juntas, led by Alberto Bachelet), a system of rationing that limited liberties even more. The government also kept the salaries of professionals low, destroying the middle class. Allende put unqualified party members in charge of the nationalized companies, and production predictably started falling, at a rate of 10% per year. I recall very clearly that the shelves were out of the basic necessities, which were only available in the black market. Official government figues put the inflation rate at 508% in 1973, but in the black market the inflation was over 1000%.
As you can see, much of the crisis was caused directly by government interference. Again I state the example of Venezuela, which is going though a similar cycle of inflation, decreased production, and shortages. Oil is the only thing that keeps Chávez's government afloat. There is a reason why the Socialists ruling Chile now have not repeated this "Chilean Way to Socialism" and instead opted for the liberal economic system implemented by President Pinochet.
a)1) If Manslow thinks democracy is a luxury then I am vehemently against him. Economic crisis does not give dictators the right to persecute the opposition. Looking at the raw economic figures, Ronald Reagan helped the American economy substantially. So did Thatcher.
b) Yes, there was a strong isolationist sentiment in America that was thankfully eliminated after Pearl Harbor. I fail to see your point. Roosevelt was already trying everything he legally could to help the Allies. Regarding the Pacific War, I perhaps "singlehandedly" is too strong a word, but America was the most active participant in this theatre. I think you are excessively minimizing American resposibility in the defeat of Japan, just like some Western writers minimize Russia's role in the defeat of Germany.
b)2) Again, you are minimizing the American role. Japan was cornered by August 1945, the bombs were a way to force Japanese surrender without the soldier's loss of life in an invasion. America had the manpower and the resolve to complete the mission, but it would have cost numerous lives.
c) Iran has breached the treaty by illegally starting to build nuclear bombs. That country has consantly made a fool of the useless IAEA inspectors, hiding evidence on their nuclear program countless times. The Treaty mantained nuclear programs should be transparent; Iran has tried to hide as much as they could. I don't think I've ever implied America helped Israel get nukes. The country that helped Israel most in their nuclear program is actually France (who also helped Iraq in the 1980s...). The United Kingdom also gave some help, but I am not aware of any significant help given by the United States.
d)1) I quite frankly don't care what much of the world says. America was one of the first democratic nations in the modern age and has been a prime mover for freedom in the world. I thank the United States for the help they provided to Chile in its fight for independence, for example. Europeans are much wearier of freedom, it seems. In Sweden, for example, classified as the "most free" state in the world by some organizations, an unacceptable 25% of voters think criticizing religion should be illegal. In other words, the care more about the religious sensibilities of medieval Islamic fanatics than about freedom. This has not happened in America.
d)2) Nope, I am talking about Okinawa. This island is, because of its geography, vulnerable to an American attack. American need to do what the Japanese government wants, and the government understands the valuable military protection America provides. That is why this issue is complex. America is already moving to a place where is will be less troublesome for Okinawans.
d)3) The British government has not pressed America for the return of the islanders either. But I agree, the islanders must be allowed to return and some solution has to be reached between both parties to ensure that Chagossians can return to their homes but that the strategic base can be kept.
e) Because Lukashenka is a tyannical dictator that kills his opponents just to mantain his hold on power! Belarus is in no serious economic crisis and there is no reason why democracy can't be allowed. I'm not sure why you bring up Ukraine.
e)1) Not colonies since they are for solely military purposes, with no intention of establishing settlements. They are there to protect against any threat, be it Russian or, more likely, of some Arab dictatorship.
e)2) Today Chechnya is a buffer to nothing. The Ottomans are no longer. If they want independence, give them independence.
e)3) Putin isn't "stabilizing" Chechnya, he is mantaining Russia's grip on this nation which should be independent. Chechnya was not part of Russia until the 19th century, and even under Russian rule they have mantained a distinct culture and a yearning for independence. Russia looses nothing by loosing Chechnya. The only border war America fought was against Mexico, where is stole more than a third of its territory. I condemn America for stealing part of Mexico, so there is no double standard.
f) The Wahhabi are a fundamentalist sect that Saudi Arabia was based on. It cozies up to America because of the economic benefits and because it knows American today poses no threat to the survivial of the royal family. The USA has been particularly weak in confronting the lack of freedom in Saudi Arabia. I am not defending America's actions here.
f)1) As we have seen the very successful elections, democracy is available in the vast majority of Afghanistan, not only in Kabul. There are pockets in Qandahar and the border with Pakistan that are yet out of Karzai's control, but when news sources say his power is only in Kabul they are spreading lies. It is pointless that women are equal to men if both sexes are subjected to the tyranny of communism. Again, most of the mujahideen were not fundamentalists like the Taleban. Look at Karzai and his followers, many of whom fought against the Soviet invasion. I see threats and violence as the principal means used by the Taleban to stay in power. Afghans clearly repudiated them after the US-led liberation.
g) You are arguing semantics. Whether is called slavery or serfdom it's an evil system that rejects basic human liberties.
h) The Soviet Union deserved humiliation and defeat just like Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and Japan did back in the 1940s. The United States and democracy will again triumph if Putin dares to revive the Cold War.
h)1) Your point?
h)2) The two-party system is very adequate for American politics. Despite the fact that is popular to talk about
Republicrats, both parties differ sharply on many issues. Having many parties is no virtue.
i) In the 1980s, sadly yes.
j) I don't know enough about military matters to rebut that. I don't think Russia has the best thank
though.
k) "Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried." Churchill was right. There is no other system that is better. How do we determine who is the best? Which system consistently chooses the best leaders? Plato was wrong. I have found this
link very useful in explaining Plato's errors.
l) Russia's rôle should not be minimized. Neither should we ignore America's role in helping in the Western front and their defeat of Japan in the Pacific. I was aware of Himmler's attempts at surrender.
l)1) Well, note there hasn't been a major American leak for quite a number of years now...
l)2) Yes, it was the Poles. Does this somehow belittle America's victory in World War II? I don't see how.
l)3) The only allegation that the CIA knew what Khan was up to is by
Ruud Lubbers. He doesn't seem like a reliable person to me, given his animosity towards the United States. I am accusing Russia of helping Iran by protecting it from any attempt to stop it from developing a nuclear bomb. I am not saying Russia helped AQ Khan.
Regarding primary sources, yes I prefer them much more than news articles from the international media that most probably did not investigate the issue but blindly repeated what Bachelet's campaign alleges. Bechelet herself said she was not tortured before it became politically advantageous to say so. The investigation by Diego Portales University confirms that Alberto Bachelet was not tortured but treated harshly during interrogations.
General Bachelet was not a political prisoner, having participating a terrorist plot against an air base. Anyway, he was a high ranking member in the Air Force and a personal friend of many members of the military government, among them Air Force General
Gustavo Leigh. This is why he was treated very leniently. He was in house arrest, remember, until he tried to run away. Therefore it is not surprising that even in prison he was allowed to play sports. I don't know with who he played since Eric Schnake didn't say. Bachelet's Air Force friends also helped free his wife and daughter after less than a week.
No not all Germans stood by. But it was the German voters who brought Hitler to power knowing of his genocidial hatred of Jews. All they had to do was pick up a copy of the Mein Kampf. America was very far from Europe so of course it has less people in the list. And while I'm happy there is one Chilean in the list one Chilean consul in Prague was Nazi sympathizer to was responsible for handing over 1,600 Jews, all with the knowledge of the (lefist) Chilean government. I wish my country had gotten on the right side earlier.
Best regards,
Marmaduque (
talk)
22:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello, nice to hear from you again. The current version of the Bachelet incident in the 1973 coup page is acceptable to me, with the sole issue of labeling El Mercurio a "conservative Chilean newspaper". While editorially the paper is indeed conservative, its reporting is neutral and that label tends to imply that it is biased. I changed it to "major Chilean newspaper", which is objectively true. About Litvinenko, I realize he is not stricly a journalist. I've changed it to writer, which is what Wikipedia calls him. Unfortunately, I'm also pressed for time, so I can't respond to the WWII debate point by point at this momemnt. I will say however that the high number of Russian casualties is because of the direct ground invasion of Russian territory and urban warfare that took place, something which the UK and US did not experience. The high number of Russian casualties does not diminish the UK and US' rôle in defeating Nazism. It is also important to note that at the time America was ripped between two ideologies: isolationism, advacated by most Republicans and conservatives who didn't want to get involved (many isolationists has fascistic tendencies themselves), and internationalists like President Roosevelt who were eager to help the Allied cause. Unfortunately, at the time Congress was controlled by isolationist conservatives who before Pearl Harbor did everything they could to avoid American participation in the war. Roosevelt himself however saw the danger posed by Nazi Germany andwas a strong supporter of entering the war against Germany and did everything he legally could to help the Allies. I'll respond to the other points later.
Best regards, Marmaduque ( talk) 21:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Mariya. Thank you for all the editing you have done on this article. I'm going to suggest renaming it though to the Kiev Strategic Offensive Operation per the list in Strategic operations of the Red Army in World War II if that is ok with you?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Your edits would be good for the article RDX. However, we have such policies as WP:OR which explicitely states: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes <...> any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. <...> [T]o demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented". See WP:OR#Synthesis of published material which advances a position specifically. None of your sources is related to the bombings. And no, I am not anywhere near the limit imposed by WP:3RR. I have made only two reverts, while it is disallowed to make more than three reverts within 24h. Read the policies carefully. Colchicum ( talk) 21:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
You appear to be involved in RR war in article Russian apartment bombings. You made two reverts today. Please be informed about WP:3RR rule. Biophys ( talk) 17:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! -- SineBot ( talk) 18:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
My opinion about the versions has been added in the Russian apartment bombings discussion page. Thank you for telling. :) -- MaeseLeon ( talk) 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The only edits I made was to make things more neutral, as a basis so we can continue to improve the article. I'm happy to discuss things with you, but I'm also afraid to see this going into the wrong direction. But don't worry, I prefer to use the discussion page as well. Grey Fox ( talk) 21:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
By the way, you seem to be interested in fraud allegations against Yeltsin's family in 1998-1999. Could you write something about it? This is badly needed here. I've just written Behgjet Pacolli, but Pavel Borodin and Yury Skuratov are still pitiful stubs, and some general article is also necessary. Colchicum ( talk) 22:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
We can discuss Litvinko and other sources forever, but what exactly do you suggest to change in the article? Biophys ( talk) 22:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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Hi, me and others have implemented many of the suggestions you had made on the Russian apartment bombings talk page. Maybe you could have a look at the current version of the article, and tell me what you think? I think the article is much more balanced now. Offliner ( talk) 06:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
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This user may have left Wikipedia. Mariya Oktyabrskaya has not edited Wikipedia since 18 April 2009. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else. |
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I have reverted your deletion of "where she enjoys cheese" from the Svetlana Alliluyeva article, because it's quite obvious...who doesn't enjoy eating cheese? Naaah, just kidding. Good catch and good wikipedia-ing! Cheers, -- LeyteWolfer 04:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Maria, how can you say that being "granted" independence is not a British POV. I also provided a citation, the first Prime Minister of India said we achieved freedom from the British. And why should the article not have ANY criticims of the empire at all when there are clearly many present. I will not undo your edit but will wait for a reply. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations 04:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi. If it's a matter of point of view, which I don't think it is, it's certainly not my point of view - I added a reference from Niall Ferguson's book the relevant page of which you can read here [1]. I think it is accepted fact that Holland was a pioneer of capitalism (e.g. it had the first stock exchange, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange), and its mechanisms of raising money for colonial ventures were well ahead of England or any other nation at the time. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
This is getting too indented! back to square one.
I guess Barbarians fits into the current English mode of apologising for everything. But that leads to its own problems. For example, some historians have questioned the "morality" of the decision to end slavery, saying that it had good economic grounds. Similarly, the "moral" decision to return the British Empire (well most of it) has been criticised as racist, and that economic (too expensive) or practical (got kicked out) grounds are closer to the "truth". Mr Palin, Mr Jones, and their ilk seem to fall into this trap rather more readily than one might expect.
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
16:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello and thank you for contacting me regarding the Bachelet edit conflict. Unfortunately I know of no researcher that has undertaken an investigation into the Bachelet case and most of the international news media has simply accepted Bachelet's own declarations on the matter, while the truth appears much more complex. While I am aware that a newspaper article is perhaps not the best source, this article in particular appears realiable. I reproduce the Spanish original and my English translation below of the relevant paragraphs:
Las torturas y la verdad Pues ella saltó en las encuestas cuando, tras declararse torturada por los militares e hija de un general fallecido a causa de torturas, apareció como ministra de Defensa, trepada en un tanque y en cordial convivencia con militares. Todo un símbolo ante el cual Chile entero se prosternó. Pero ¿fue torturada? ¿Murió su padre debido a las torturas? El apresamiento y juicio del general Bachelet no se debieron a que él administrara el sistema de distribución de alimentos durante la UP, sino por su pertenencia a un grupo de oficiales, simpatizantes de Allende, que se habían reunido reiteradamente en el Banco del Estado con dirigentes socialistas y del MIR para planificar una acción contra la base aérea "El Bosque". Los detalles de esa conspiración constan en los llamados "procesos de la FACh", documentados en el libro del periodista democratacristiano Ricardo Boizard, "Proceso a una traición". Y tampoco el general murió debido a torturas, sino por una afección cardiaca. En 1969 había tenido una seguidilla de infartos, tras una actividad deportiva. Estando preso, en 1974, fue derivado al Hospital de la FACh debido a la misma afección. Cuando volvió a la cárcel, en la mañana del 12 de marzo de 1974, y tras participar en un partido de básquetbol, sufrió un paro cardíaco y falleció. Así lo ha referido su compañero de celda, el capitán Raúl Vergara Meneses, testigo del desenlace, quien sin embargo también dice que "el general murió en la celda que compartíamos después de ser torturado. El ex parlamentario socialista Eric Schnake, preso en el mismo recinto, tampoco dudó en atribuir la muerte del general a una práctica deportiva incompatible con su condición cardiaca. La verosimilitud de esa explicación resultó tristemente confirmada por el posterior fallecimiento del único hijo varón del general Bachelet, a causa de un ataque cardíaco, a los 54 años de edad. Tampoco Michelle ni su madre fueron torturadas. Yo vi personalmente a la primera declarar en televisión, recién designada ministra de Salud, que no lo había sido, pero que su madre sí. No puedo precisar el canal ni la fecha exacta, pero estoy cierto de lo que vi y oí. El 23.04.00 declaró a Raquel Correa, de "El Mercurio": "Nos llevaron a Villa Grimaldi y después a Cuatro Álamos. Estuve con los ojos vendados y recibí golpes". No habló de torturas. Pero, finalmente, el 14.11.04, ya en campaña, declaró a la misma periodista: "Sí, me torturaron... me cuesta recordar detalles. Como que se me bloquearon los malos recuerdos....". En definitiva, estuvo nueve días detenida, y no quince o más, como ahora afirma. Tampoco fue exiliada, pero su madre sí, por lo que Michelle la acompañó. Doña Ángela tampoco fue torturada, según se desprende de su declaración a "La Segunda" del 18.11.04: "En el centro de torturas fuimos sometidas a violentos interrogatorios", dijo. El diario agregó: "No relata torturas físicas a su persona, pero sí un duro tratamiento". Esa es la verdad. Pero "¿qué es la verdad?", como preguntara Pilatos en "La Pasión de Cristo". Pues ha sido la no verdad la importante para gestar el fenómeno Bachelet y el primer lugar en las encuestas. Torture and the truth She [Bachelet] jumped in the polls when, after declaring herself tortured by the military and the daughter of a general killed because of torture, appeared as Minister of Defense, inside a tank and in a cordial relationship with a military. A symbol which all of Chile praised. But was she tortured? Did her father die because of torture? The arrest and trial of General Bachelet was not because he administered the system of distribution of food supplies under the Popular Unity government, but because of his membership in a group of officials, sympathizers of Allende, who met continuously in the State Bank (Banco del Estado) with Socialist and MIR chiefs to plan action against the "El Bosque" aerial base. The details of this conspiracy are revealed in the so-called "processes of the Air Force", documented in the book Proceso a una traición by Christian Democrat reporter Ricardo Boizard. An neither did the General die because of torture, but because of a heart problem. In 1969 he had had a series of strokes after sports-related activity. Under arrest, in 1974, he was taken to the Air Force Hospital because of the same problem. When he returned to his jail cell, on the morning of March 12, 1974, and after participating in a basketball match, he suffered cardiac arrest and died. This is what his jailmate, Captain Raúl Vergara Meneses, witness to the event, said, although he also declared that "the General died in the cell that we shared after being tortured". Former Socialist parlamentarian Eric Schnake, detained in the same jail, also did not hesitate in attributing the death of the General to sports activities incompatible with his heart condition. The truthfulness of this explanation was sadly confirmed with the later death of the only male son of General Bachelet because of cardiac attack at age 54. Neither were Michelle and her mother tortured. I personally saw the former declare in television, right after being appointed Minister of Health, that she had not been tortured, but her mother had. I cannot remember the channel or the exact date, but I am sure I saw it and heard it. On April 23, 2000, she told El Mercurio's Raquel Correa, "We were taken to Villa Grimaldi and then to Cuatro Álamos. My eyes were covered and I recieved punches". She did not talk about torture. But finally, on November 14, 2004, during electoral campaigning, she told the same reporter, "Yes, I was tortured... I can't remember the details. It's like my bad memories have been deleted". She was detained for nine days, and not fifteen or more like she now affirms. Neither was she exiled, but her mother was, so Michelle accompanied her. Mrs. Ángela [Bachelet's mother] was also not tortured, according to her own declaration to La Segunda on November 18, 2004: "In the torture center we were subjected to violent interrogations", she said. The newspaper added, "She did not talk of physical torture, but yes of harsh treatment". That is the truth. But "what is the truth?", like Pilate asks in The Passion of the Christ. Because truth has not been important for the gestation of the Bachelet phenomenon and her first place in the polls. Pérez de Arce, Hermógenes. "Michelle Bachelet, ¿quién es realmente usted?". El Mercurio 1/15/06. |
I really don't know whether this first Wikipedia's reliability standards, but it is a piece whose claims could be independently corroborated and is the only article which I have found that attempts to invesigate Bachelet's claims, instead of just repeating her own statements. There is a biography of Bachelet somewhere and I will try to get my hands on it to read what it says about her and her father's arrest.
Best regards, Marmaduque 01:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Very much appreciated. Especially the Spanish translation - my Spanish is only about a dozen words - literally :-)
So to play the "Devil's Advocate":
a) the "witness" could be re-interviewed to see if his story remains the same. Is this what you mean by "corroborated". Not all witnesses are entirely candid in their interviews - especially as a newspaper interview is not under oath, and many witnesses are less than candid even under oath. The article you quote seems to contain contradictory statements from both Mr Meneses and Ms Bachelet, but that is no reason to dismiss one-half of their statements - the conditions under which the statements were made, and the mental and emotional state of the individuals at the time has not been mentioned. Certainly, some people are very modest about their own suffering, while others seem to suffer a "martyr complex" and exagerate even the slightest inconvenience;
b) "Corroboration" usually involves looking at a number of different sources - a variety of witnesses, forensic evidence, documentary evidence. This, for example, is why the Holocaust is said to have happened (despite the denials of certain individuals and cultural groups) - the huge number of witness statements, the documentary evidence (the Nazi's, on the whole, kept very good records), and the forensic evidence (remains of some of the camps still exist. I myself have visited Auschwitz in '92, and although parts of the Birkenau site have been "re-constructed" both the narrative and the physical evidence are overwhelming). In the case of Mr Bachelet / Mr Schnake / Mr Meneses there certainly does not seem to be a single version of events from the witnesses, even in the article from which you quote, and there is no record of any forensic/physical examination of the claims;
c) The expression "torture" mmeans different things to different people. Amnesty International has one view, Mr Bush seems to have another, I suspect the Saudi police have another, and Mr Stalin certaily had another. So what is torture? What about holding a suspect's head underwater until they nearly drown, then pulling them out and asking them questions. It was very popular with the Gestapo while interviewing French Resistance subjects. I believe some governments think it is a good idea today. What about beating the soles of the suspect's feel with cables/rods (very popular, I understand, in Saudi Arabia). Ms Bachelet in one interview, when asked about torture, replied "Nothing involving electricity". Which means what? That statement doesn't even preclude "Medieaval" torture methods.
d) The reporter seems to have seized on an open statement of Ms Bachelet, and implied it means she said she was not tortured -"'We were taken to Villa Grimaldi and then to Cuatro Álamos. My eyes were covered and I recieved punches'. She did not talk about torture". That statement does not mean she was not tortured. The question (apparently) wasn't put to her. She may have been, for example, playing down on that aspect so as to avoid openly portraying herself as a "martyr". The best ever quote I have heard from someone plaing down a situation was from a Belgian guy who was an SS volunteer during the war. Henri Metalmann, or something very similar. He ws interviewed on a TV documentary. He said "But when you are young, you don't notice such things" about his injuries he picked up (he was discharged following his injured, but kept revolunteering until they let him back in). The injury to which he was referring was when he lost an arm and an eye on the Eastern Front.
e) Just because Mr Bachelet's son died of a (natural) heart attacka at 54 did not mean he did (as implied in the article) - there are a number of risk factors for coronary infarction, including diet, exercise, alcohol, stress (including being tortured), excessive exertion (including being tortured), as well as family proclivity.
So what do you think. The only person who appears to ahve made a clear statement in the article is Mr Schnake, and the circumstances under which he made that statement are unclear, and the statement itself isn't quoted.
As regards Bachelet mother and daughter, the suggestion that they were not tortured seems to be implied by a particular interpretation of several "open" statements.
Not much basis for "objective" truth, methinks.
So that's my bit, picking holes in your side
So what do you think?
And thanks again for discussing, not just "warring".
And I'm Still ready for that Putin arguement when you are ;-)
Mariya - x -
Mariya Oktyabrskaya
11:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Señor Director: En carta aparecida en esta sección, el capitán (r) Raúl Vergara afirma, pretendiendo desmentir un artículo mío, lo siguiente: "El general Bachelet no falleció ni durante ni después de un partido de básquetbol, sino en la mañana del 12 de marzo del 74, cuando recién se producía la apertura de las hacinadas e insalubres celdas donde se nos mantenía." El partido de básquetbol fue mencionado por el ex parlamentario socialista Eric Schnake, que compartió prisión con el general Bachelet, y también está mencionado en una investigación de dos alumnas de periodismo de la Universidad Diego Portales, Pamela Campusano y Silvana Celedón, que señala: "La mañana del 12 de marzo de 1974, Alberto Bachelet quiso jugar básquetbol para distraer su mente. Luego, cumpliendo con los turnos que se le habían designado esa semana, se dirigió a lavar los platos usados la noche anterior, mientras intentaba olvidar el infernal interrogatorio a que había sido sometido dos días atrás. Bajo las órdenes del coronel Horacio Otaíza, había sido sometido a un centenar de preguntas, las que lo habían dejado muy decaído y sintiendo fuertes malestares. Su ex colega de labores en la Secretaría Nacional de Distribución y actual compañero de celda, capitán Raúl Vergara, amaneció especialmente nervioso esa mañana, pues había sido notificado que ese día sería llevado a una cita. Mientras afeitaba su rostro, se percató de que Alberto estaba tumbado en el suelo. Rápidamente, llamó al comandante Yáñez, médico de la Fuerza Aérea, quien le aplicó los primeros auxilios, mientras otros compañeros golpeaban en forma desesperada la puerta de hierro que daba hacia la calle para pedir ayuda." Hermógenes Pérez de Arce Ibieta Mr. Editor, In a letter that appeared in this section, retired Captain Raúl Vergara affirms, trying to debunk one of my articles, that, "General Bachelet did not die during or after a basketball match, but on the morning of March 12 of '74, when the horrific and unhealthy cells where we were kept were just being opened." The basketall match was mentioned by the former Socialist parlamentarian Eric Schnake, who shared prison with General Bachelet, and was also mentioned in an investigaton by two journalism students of Diego Portales University, Pamela Campusano and Silvana Celedón, which says: "On the morning of March 12, 1974, Alberto Bachelet wanted to play basketball to distract his mind. Later, following the schedule given to him that week, he went to clean the dishes used last night, as he tried to forget the infernal interrogation that he has been subjected to two days ago. Under the orders of Coronel Horacio Otaíza, he has been subjected to hundreds of questions, which had left him very depressed and feeling very ill. His former colleague in the National Secretariat of Distribution and now jailmate, Captain Raúl Vergara, awakened especially nervious this morning, since he had been notified that this day he would be taken to an appointment. As he shaved his face, he noticed that Alberto was thrown on the ground. Quickly, he called Commander Yáñez, an Air Force medical doctor, who applied first aid, while other inmates hit the iron door that led to the street in desperation, calling for help." Hermógenes Pérez de Arce Ibieta Letters to the Editor. El Mercurio 1/19/06. |
Yes, it appears that democracy is not the first priority for most Russians, and I think that is a huge problem. This apathy towards democracy is what got people like Adolf Hitler, Ismail Haniyeh, Hugo Chávez, Evo Morales, and Salvador Allende power. And Putin's 82% [2] approval rating is not only bad for Russian democracy, which has never been strong, but for the entire world. Putin protected Saddam Hussein in Iraq before the invasion, and now he is protecting Iran. And he is truly acting like a bully against neighbouring nations who want stronger ties with the West (Estonia, Georgia, Ukraine). Putin is leading the world to another conflict with the United States, perhaps not a full-scale Cold War, but definitely a dangerous rivalry. At the same time, within Russia dissent is being slowly repressed. But ordinary Russian voters, like ordinary German voters in the 1930s and ordinary Venezuelan and Bolivian voters today, do not seem to care or notice... Marmaduque 17:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
a) Allende and his coalition came to power promising to destroy the capitalist system, even by violent means if necessary (numerous quotes available to back this up). He declared that he wanted to "increment the economic power of the State and expand the area of "social property" in expenso of the capitalist enterprises and of the burgeoise". He took over countless private companies, oftentimes illegally by encouraging conflicts between (armed) workers unions and the management. Allende, though the State Corporation of Development (Corporación Estatal de Fomento, CORFO), took control of the Chilean banking system, nationalizing numerous private banks. In order to buy more banks, the government raised taxes and printed massive amounts of money. Stocks fell because of investors' fear of government takeovers. Inflation obviously started rising rapidly and economic crisis took hold. Carlos Matus, Minister of the Economy, told Der Spiegel that, "By conventional economic criteria we are, in fact, in crisis[...] But what is crisis to some, for us is the solution." Because of this twisted logic, the government took no real steps to halt inflation. Claiming to be taking steps to stop the crisis, the government established maximum prices on basic products, making these products scarce. The government then created Juntas de Abastecimiento (Provision Juntas, led by Alberto Bachelet), a system of rationing that limited liberties even more. The government also kept the salaries of professionals low, destroying the middle class. Allende put unqualified party members in charge of the nationalized companies, and production predictably started falling, at a rate of 10% per year. I recall very clearly that the shelves were out of the basic necessities, which were only available in the black market. Official government figues put the inflation rate at 508% in 1973, but in the black market the inflation was over 1000%.
As you can see, much of the crisis was caused directly by government interference. Again I state the example of Venezuela, which is going though a similar cycle of inflation, decreased production, and shortages. Oil is the only thing that keeps Chávez's government afloat. There is a reason why the Socialists ruling Chile now have not repeated this "Chilean Way to Socialism" and instead opted for the liberal economic system implemented by President Pinochet.
a)1) If Manslow thinks democracy is a luxury then I am vehemently against him. Economic crisis does not give dictators the right to persecute the opposition. Looking at the raw economic figures, Ronald Reagan helped the American economy substantially. So did Thatcher.
b) Yes, there was a strong isolationist sentiment in America that was thankfully eliminated after Pearl Harbor. I fail to see your point. Roosevelt was already trying everything he legally could to help the Allies. Regarding the Pacific War, I perhaps "singlehandedly" is too strong a word, but America was the most active participant in this theatre. I think you are excessively minimizing American resposibility in the defeat of Japan, just like some Western writers minimize Russia's role in the defeat of Germany.
b)2) Again, you are minimizing the American role. Japan was cornered by August 1945, the bombs were a way to force Japanese surrender without the soldier's loss of life in an invasion. America had the manpower and the resolve to complete the mission, but it would have cost numerous lives.
c) Iran has breached the treaty by illegally starting to build nuclear bombs. That country has consantly made a fool of the useless IAEA inspectors, hiding evidence on their nuclear program countless times. The Treaty mantained nuclear programs should be transparent; Iran has tried to hide as much as they could. I don't think I've ever implied America helped Israel get nukes. The country that helped Israel most in their nuclear program is actually France (who also helped Iraq in the 1980s...). The United Kingdom also gave some help, but I am not aware of any significant help given by the United States.
d)1) I quite frankly don't care what much of the world says. America was one of the first democratic nations in the modern age and has been a prime mover for freedom in the world. I thank the United States for the help they provided to Chile in its fight for independence, for example. Europeans are much wearier of freedom, it seems. In Sweden, for example, classified as the "most free" state in the world by some organizations, an unacceptable 25% of voters think criticizing religion should be illegal. In other words, the care more about the religious sensibilities of medieval Islamic fanatics than about freedom. This has not happened in America.
d)2) Nope, I am talking about Okinawa. This island is, because of its geography, vulnerable to an American attack. American need to do what the Japanese government wants, and the government understands the valuable military protection America provides. That is why this issue is complex. America is already moving to a place where is will be less troublesome for Okinawans.
d)3) The British government has not pressed America for the return of the islanders either. But I agree, the islanders must be allowed to return and some solution has to be reached between both parties to ensure that Chagossians can return to their homes but that the strategic base can be kept.
e) Because Lukashenka is a tyannical dictator that kills his opponents just to mantain his hold on power! Belarus is in no serious economic crisis and there is no reason why democracy can't be allowed. I'm not sure why you bring up Ukraine.
e)1) Not colonies since they are for solely military purposes, with no intention of establishing settlements. They are there to protect against any threat, be it Russian or, more likely, of some Arab dictatorship.
e)2) Today Chechnya is a buffer to nothing. The Ottomans are no longer. If they want independence, give them independence.
e)3) Putin isn't "stabilizing" Chechnya, he is mantaining Russia's grip on this nation which should be independent. Chechnya was not part of Russia until the 19th century, and even under Russian rule they have mantained a distinct culture and a yearning for independence. Russia looses nothing by loosing Chechnya. The only border war America fought was against Mexico, where is stole more than a third of its territory. I condemn America for stealing part of Mexico, so there is no double standard.
f) The Wahhabi are a fundamentalist sect that Saudi Arabia was based on. It cozies up to America because of the economic benefits and because it knows American today poses no threat to the survivial of the royal family. The USA has been particularly weak in confronting the lack of freedom in Saudi Arabia. I am not defending America's actions here.
f)1) As we have seen the very successful elections, democracy is available in the vast majority of Afghanistan, not only in Kabul. There are pockets in Qandahar and the border with Pakistan that are yet out of Karzai's control, but when news sources say his power is only in Kabul they are spreading lies. It is pointless that women are equal to men if both sexes are subjected to the tyranny of communism. Again, most of the mujahideen were not fundamentalists like the Taleban. Look at Karzai and his followers, many of whom fought against the Soviet invasion. I see threats and violence as the principal means used by the Taleban to stay in power. Afghans clearly repudiated them after the US-led liberation.
g) You are arguing semantics. Whether is called slavery or serfdom it's an evil system that rejects basic human liberties.
h) The Soviet Union deserved humiliation and defeat just like Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and Japan did back in the 1940s. The United States and democracy will again triumph if Putin dares to revive the Cold War.
h)1) Your point?
h)2) The two-party system is very adequate for American politics. Despite the fact that is popular to talk about
Republicrats, both parties differ sharply on many issues. Having many parties is no virtue.
i) In the 1980s, sadly yes.
j) I don't know enough about military matters to rebut that. I don't think Russia has the best thank
though.
k) "Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried." Churchill was right. There is no other system that is better. How do we determine who is the best? Which system consistently chooses the best leaders? Plato was wrong. I have found this
link very useful in explaining Plato's errors.
l) Russia's rôle should not be minimized. Neither should we ignore America's role in helping in the Western front and their defeat of Japan in the Pacific. I was aware of Himmler's attempts at surrender.
l)1) Well, note there hasn't been a major American leak for quite a number of years now...
l)2) Yes, it was the Poles. Does this somehow belittle America's victory in World War II? I don't see how.
l)3) The only allegation that the CIA knew what Khan was up to is by
Ruud Lubbers. He doesn't seem like a reliable person to me, given his animosity towards the United States. I am accusing Russia of helping Iran by protecting it from any attempt to stop it from developing a nuclear bomb. I am not saying Russia helped AQ Khan.
Regarding primary sources, yes I prefer them much more than news articles from the international media that most probably did not investigate the issue but blindly repeated what Bachelet's campaign alleges. Bechelet herself said she was not tortured before it became politically advantageous to say so. The investigation by Diego Portales University confirms that Alberto Bachelet was not tortured but treated harshly during interrogations.
General Bachelet was not a political prisoner, having participating a terrorist plot against an air base. Anyway, he was a high ranking member in the Air Force and a personal friend of many members of the military government, among them Air Force General
Gustavo Leigh. This is why he was treated very leniently. He was in house arrest, remember, until he tried to run away. Therefore it is not surprising that even in prison he was allowed to play sports. I don't know with who he played since Eric Schnake didn't say. Bachelet's Air Force friends also helped free his wife and daughter after less than a week.
No not all Germans stood by. But it was the German voters who brought Hitler to power knowing of his genocidial hatred of Jews. All they had to do was pick up a copy of the Mein Kampf. America was very far from Europe so of course it has less people in the list. And while I'm happy there is one Chilean in the list one Chilean consul in Prague was Nazi sympathizer to was responsible for handing over 1,600 Jews, all with the knowledge of the (lefist) Chilean government. I wish my country had gotten on the right side earlier.
Best regards,
Marmaduque (
talk)
22:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello, nice to hear from you again. The current version of the Bachelet incident in the 1973 coup page is acceptable to me, with the sole issue of labeling El Mercurio a "conservative Chilean newspaper". While editorially the paper is indeed conservative, its reporting is neutral and that label tends to imply that it is biased. I changed it to "major Chilean newspaper", which is objectively true. About Litvinenko, I realize he is not stricly a journalist. I've changed it to writer, which is what Wikipedia calls him. Unfortunately, I'm also pressed for time, so I can't respond to the WWII debate point by point at this momemnt. I will say however that the high number of Russian casualties is because of the direct ground invasion of Russian territory and urban warfare that took place, something which the UK and US did not experience. The high number of Russian casualties does not diminish the UK and US' rôle in defeating Nazism. It is also important to note that at the time America was ripped between two ideologies: isolationism, advacated by most Republicans and conservatives who didn't want to get involved (many isolationists has fascistic tendencies themselves), and internationalists like President Roosevelt who were eager to help the Allied cause. Unfortunately, at the time Congress was controlled by isolationist conservatives who before Pearl Harbor did everything they could to avoid American participation in the war. Roosevelt himself however saw the danger posed by Nazi Germany andwas a strong supporter of entering the war against Germany and did everything he legally could to help the Allies. I'll respond to the other points later.
Best regards, Marmaduque ( talk) 21:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Mariya. Thank you for all the editing you have done on this article. I'm going to suggest renaming it though to the Kiev Strategic Offensive Operation per the list in Strategic operations of the Red Army in World War II if that is ok with you?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Your edits would be good for the article RDX. However, we have such policies as WP:OR which explicitely states: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes <...> any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. <...> [T]o demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented". See WP:OR#Synthesis of published material which advances a position specifically. None of your sources is related to the bombings. And no, I am not anywhere near the limit imposed by WP:3RR. I have made only two reverts, while it is disallowed to make more than three reverts within 24h. Read the policies carefully. Colchicum ( talk) 21:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
You appear to be involved in RR war in article Russian apartment bombings. You made two reverts today. Please be informed about WP:3RR rule. Biophys ( talk) 17:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! -- SineBot ( talk) 18:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
My opinion about the versions has been added in the Russian apartment bombings discussion page. Thank you for telling. :) -- MaeseLeon ( talk) 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The only edits I made was to make things more neutral, as a basis so we can continue to improve the article. I'm happy to discuss things with you, but I'm also afraid to see this going into the wrong direction. But don't worry, I prefer to use the discussion page as well. Grey Fox ( talk) 21:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
By the way, you seem to be interested in fraud allegations against Yeltsin's family in 1998-1999. Could you write something about it? This is badly needed here. I've just written Behgjet Pacolli, but Pavel Borodin and Yury Skuratov are still pitiful stubs, and some general article is also necessary. Colchicum ( talk) 22:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
We can discuss Litvinko and other sources forever, but what exactly do you suggest to change in the article? Biophys ( talk) 22:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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Hi, me and others have implemented many of the suggestions you had made on the Russian apartment bombings talk page. Maybe you could have a look at the current version of the article, and tell me what you think? I think the article is much more balanced now. Offliner ( talk) 06:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
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