A lot of people have asked me why I am proposing this. The reason is that it is one of the few things that I can do for Wikipedia. You all either have attended or are attending one of these mystical institutions, while I have not. What that means is that you can make substantiative contributions to Wikipedia, while all I can do is fix links between articles and maybe a little bit of formatting here and there. You have the research methodology to write great articles, while I would not know where to begin.
My greatest contribution to Wikipedia to date is to user templates. I first started by categorizing them, then when that was as complete as possible, I started merging similar ones together and getting the then redundant templates deleted. That allowed user templates to have a smaller footprint here on Wikipedia. I have modified or created about 20 user templates and successfully merged around 170, which were deleted.
Using that success as a base, I tried to do the same with all the school user templates. I didn't realize that there would be such a negative reaction to the idea of one template to cover all schools. After seeing that reaction, I decided to narrow my focus to a small group of schools. The "Oxbridge" schools, sorry, colleges seemed to be a great place to start. There was an article on Oxbridge which showed that there was some connective tissue between the two universities, Cambridge and Oxford. That those universities had a plethora of colleges did not pose a problem. I know how to write a template that can change the colors for those colleges, abbreviations, and other details with just a few additional keystrokes.
Some of the templates that I have had great success with are time zone, Doctor Who, Monty Python, Star Trek, and Stargate. I knew that the fans of the latter four could be protective of their individual templates, but I was able to get them to agree that a merged one was just as good. The Monty Python template was a great achievement since it was so customizable to each person's favorite part of Monty Python.
I didn't realize that even on this level there would be such a great animosity to the idea of a merged template. Some of you must have had a great experience at your college to be so loyal that the idea of sharing a user template with another college is so offensive. I have never had that experience. I find the whole concept of Oxbridge intriguing and wonderful to the point where one template to cover the whole of it seemed to be a good idea.
Another reason to do this is that I am against the userbox migration to user space. These templates are being moved to a place where, in my opinion, they do not belong. The merging of templates was to be an alternative to it. Instead of moving the templates to user space, merge similar ones so that there are fewer of them to worry about. The merged templates that I have already done have been migrated to user space where they do not belong. They belong in template space with all of the other templates. If I could get a large enough group of templates merged, when I go to ask for the reversal of those moves, I could possibly convince those who have the power to put them back in template space that it would not be a bad thing.
There are 80 colleges under the Oxbridge umbrella and currently 40+ templates already created. Some of those colleges have two templates, while others have none. Some of the current templates are not being used by anyone, most have less than five users. If all of the colleges created two templates that would be 160 templates. If this one template can do the same as 160, why not have just the one? This one can be expanded to say more than the four current statuses. I was thinking about adding a "will be attending," "teaches at," and "works for," and for the fictional colleges (added or to be added for a bit of fun) "has read about." There could be other variations to those and more.
I did not follow my standard modus operandi for this template. I usually create the merged template, insert a message that the merged one is available, wait a week, then put the individual ones up for deletion. I wanted input from those who went to these colleges to make this template best serve the people attached to the colleges. I didn't expect to be so harshly criticized for the mere thought of it.
I really want this template to work, but if there is no chance, please tell me. I will get it speedily deleted and try to find another group of user templates unrelated to schools to hopefully merge that is not so controversial. - LA @ 18:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh my! After reading a few of the articles on the universities, something I read (a work of fiction) makes sense! A character kept saying that she would be "reading" a subject. That didn't make any sense to me until now. I had no clue that "reading" in this context meant that she would be "studying" a subject. Prior to this, I kept thinking that I hope that she did more than just read the subject, but study it as well. I could read a subject for a year and not really absorb a thing. Just had to share that with you for some reason. One learns something new every day. :) - LA @ 12:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice bit of tidying up, but it won't do like that I'm afraid.
Those college abbreviations are hopeless: no-one remotely connected with Oxford would recognize "MeC" as anything to do with Merton.
There are a few colleges that do have well recognise Acronyms (some of which you already have):
but most of them just use the full name. If you must shorten it then, I'd suggest an initial syllable:
Mert. Trin. Linc. Exe. Jes. Som. Worcs. StJ. Wad.
but much better to use a crest if we can or perhaps a suitable thumbnail picture? Thruston ( talk) 18:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
You asked me for comments. As you couldn't tell the difference between a school and a college, you couldn't spell college, and you couldn't spell colour, then I wasn't very impressed. David Biddulph ( talk) 18:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm also intrigued as to why you list yourself in the category of Wikipedian by alma mater for each of the colleges. I don't know which college you attended, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't all of them. David Biddulph ( talk) 19:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for asking me to comment. I agree with all the previous comments (though not necessarily with the tone of one of the contributors). Most colleges do not have a recognisable abbreivation, and they would never ever be referred to as "schools". Additionally, I'm not sure anyone would ever say they "attend Oxbridge" or are "an alumnus/a of Oxbridge" as Oxbridge is not an institution. Also in the design of the user boxes, the big "Ox" is just about recognisable as relating to Oxford, but I don't think anyone would see "Ca" and think "Cambridge". I like Thruston's idea of using the crests, as used in some of the current user boxes. Mister Ant ( talk) 19:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I hate to be boring, but I agree with Thruston and Mister Ant. The abbreviations aren't ideal. Crests would be far better. In answer to your question, I can only speak for Cambridge, but I think most people feel far more attached to their college than to the university, since it's the place where they eat, sleep, socialise and get a good portion of their teaching. The University of Cambridge is only a monolithic institution when viewed from outside; from within it's a fairly faceless, non-contact entity. Also... what exactly do you mean by the comment about "private institutions"? You seem to have a rather cynical view of Oxbridge, which in itself is of course fine, but if this is the case why are you working on Oxbridge userboxes? Muspilli ( talk) 20:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks first for asking me over here to comment. I created the two for The Queens's College. You have made a great effort. However, I question whether it was required. The existing templates are perfectly OK. I also think there is a serious problem in you doing these templates when you very clearly know very little about Oxford or Cambridge. You are going to have to listen very carefully to those of us who do know those two ancient universities and their colleges, if this is going to get accepted. First, you do not attend an Oxbridge College. You are admitted as a member and if you pay the fees while you are up in Oxford you become a member for life. I am a member of The Queen's College although I matriculated over 50 years ago. Secondly, the abbreviation for the Oxford Colleges (I have not looked at the other place) are mostly wrong. Queen's for example is normally abbreviated to "Qu". I think there is a set of standard abbreviations but I am not sure where it is. I think the colours are OK. The scarves article is probably good enough, but they are also on the infobox for each College article. I suggest you ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford for comment. College Crests are copyrighted and some have been deleted in the past. It is not fair use on a userbox. More later as I have to rush off. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I would also object strongly to a user box that refers to me as an "Oxbridge" anything. Even if I had degrees from both Oxford and Cambridge (which I'm hoping to acquire!), I would only be an 'Oxbridge' graduate in the sense that I need to be categorised with students/graduates from the two olderst universities in England. Oxbridge is also a muddy category, because England's other collegiate university, Durham, sometimes wants to be included in this category of "Doxbridge" or "Duxbridge". Must we also include them? Standardising the userboxes is a good idea, but I want to be listed as a member of Wadham College, Oxford, not a member of 'Oxbridge', because that only exists as a woolly concept. Wadhamite ( talk) 19:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone needs to point out that in one of your draft boxes, "attending All Souls College, Oxford" sounds crazy. All Souls has no undergraduates, its members are all Fellows... perhaps you could create a box saying "this user is or was a Fellow of All Souls", but it seems very unlikely to me that anyone from All Souls would want to be identified here in that way! Xn4 20:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to add to the complexity, All Souls does have small numbers of graduate students. I guess these are usally Prize Fellows but somebody more expert may be able to clarify. Jonathan A Jones ( talk) 08:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Since it has been brought up, would someone be willing to get me a list of the images for the crests for all of the colleges and halls? I am only on dial-up, so searching for images is a bit of a problem since it takes so long for them to load. I would be very grateful for any and all assistance with this. - LA @ 19:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, give me the abbreviations or short forms I should use in the right hand boxes of this template. - LA @ 20:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC) Altered - LA @ 22:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
-- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 22:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The University of Cambridge has six Schools, none of which are listed here - instead you have listed the colleges. Gingekerr ( talk) 20:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
A few points:
I didn't mean this to be anonymous, sorry: – ukexpat ( talk) 22:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Any other questions? :) - LA @ 20:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Alas, this is not a 'nice piece of tidying up' as suggested by Thruston,(who then goes on to muddy the waters still further). If it needs doing at all, the right answer is to have a template for each college, e.g. the one which as far as I can recall I designed myself for King's Cambridge, and which can be seen on my userpage. So I am in agreement with the anonymous writer of 'What am I missing here' above. Best regards, -- Smerus ( talk) 20:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
While I think your goal is admirable I'm not sure there's any call/demand for this? In fact a recent move to create one userbox for all UK academic institutions just got shot down in flames.
Obviously I should declare a vested interest having created the SEH userbox but I'm not a fan of the visual style you're using here. Firstly I hate serif fonts - can't explain it I just always have. Secondly I agree with the call to have college crests as thumbnails, a border would be nice too. A lot of work was done to set the college scarf colours in the infobox templates - are you grabbing the userbox colours from there?
I also agree that as the college abbreviations need to be looked at. Might be a bit laborious for you to find all these out but they're usually printed all over college clothing. Some off the top of my head are:
Good luck! Aula TPN 21:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Keble was always abbreviated as K.C. when I was there, being the only Oxford college with K. Many nonOxonians seemed to think we had a King's College, but we didn't. In those days, there was no Kellogg. I don't think this has impacted on Keble being K.C. Ringbark ( talk) 21:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
A couple of comments about the tag for my alma mater. The abbreviation is not Worcs as suggested above - that is the abbreviation for Worcestershire. The abbreviation is Worc. (The college website is found at "www.worc.ox.ac.uk".) Secondly, the college colours are tasteful pink and black stripes - at least they were that when I was there only just over a quarter of a century ago. My scarf was from Castells and was quite a light pink, the other scarf supplier favoured a more salmon colour.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 21:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe that "PET" would be preferable to "P". Best of luck with the project!-- Diniz ( talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi there; thanks for your note to let me know about your efforts to update and improve the college userboxes for Oxford and Cambridge. Comments in list form (primarily because I'm lazy but also for ease of reading):
Keep up the work, and don't be dissuaded from your efforts by personal attacks from other editors. Coldmachine Talk 07:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't dream of saying I had anything to do with 'Oxbridge' - but then, as I imagine no one except an impostor would use such boxes, the point may be academic. Xn4 20:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
As someone has already said, I don't think it's right in this case to lump the two universities together. I did not apply to or matriculate at or study at or graduate from Oxbridge, and I don't know anyone else who did, and I have no desire to proclaim allegiance to a portmanteau. Philip Trueman ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
To have any chance of getting this agreed, I think you will have to do the following:-
Then is might fly. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
As you have noticed us Oxford and Cambridge folks are a prickly lot. We are loyal to our Colleges, indeed much more loyal to the College than to the University as a whole. The Colleges are more successful at getting money out of old members (another term that you may not have realised is generally used more than alumni) than the University does. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I never answered your question about All Souls and intended to. When the colleges were founded they were collections of scholars. They developed to having scholars who were governing the colleges. These were called Fellows and had an MA degree that entitled them to govern the university as well as their college. Only later was the idea of undergraduate scholars formalised. All Souls never did that, so it is just a body of very distinguished Fellows some of whom hold chairs in the University or other positions and some of whom are prominent in public life and are not generally in Oxford. That one should be removed. As someone said above, it is unlikely ever to be used. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear LA: Really the way forward is to abandon this project and think again. If you are being thwopped, it is I think because you are being rather disingenuous. It is rather as if I, who know little or nothing about US academia, took it upon myself to merge all the US educational institutions in the Ivy League under a single banner or emblem. I can imagine the rage which would (rightly) descend on me if I had the temerity to do so. There is no point in Wikipedia in categorization for categorization's sake - indeed it is one of WP's deadly sins. I would let it lie. Best regards, Smerus ( talk) 21:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
LA, I think the above is too harsh, but you will have to split the template and stop using "Oxbridge". You will never get Oxford and Cambridge folks to agree to that. Just copy the template and then remove all the Oxford stuff from one and all the Cambridge stuff from the other. Make Oxford or Cambridge respectively the defaults. If you are not prepared to do that, then you will have to forget it. Sorry. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be better to leave this project to someone who knows more about the subject. There must be something more within your own area of experience that you could work on. As a comment on the templates themselves - they do nothing for me. I would not put one of them on my page.-- Doug ( talk) 18:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that I am using Oxonian terminology here and apologize to any Tabs if at first they fail to understand.
Firstly: The term student is misleading, and potentially confusing, especially if the person in question is at Christ Church, for example. Student at Christ Church has as its equivalent term at most, if not at all other colleges, the term fellow. I take it that the student of the categories proposed so far is not intended as such. Besides, the term is not used officially in other contexts, nor, for that matter, and as far as I know, are undergraduate or graduate.
For instance, a matriculated member of a college, studying at that college, who has a degree which is not officially recognised by the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge (ie. who does not hold a degree from the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, or from Trinity College, Dublin and who has not been incorporated but matriculated), and is on the point of submitting a D. Phil thesis, would usually and casually be called a graduate student; officially, however, he has the same status as has someone in the first year of his studies having just matriculated, this latter usually and casually being called a (first-year) undergraduate (student).
Perhaps the categories could involve the terms commoner, exhibitioner, and scholar, as well as junior member and senior member in order to get past this problem. I am not sure if there is an official term, middle member, but perhaps that would be useful here, as a term parallel with those of the Common Rooms, Junior, Middle, and Senior.
Secondly: To an extent I agree with some of Bduke's comments (23:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)) above, particularly that 'Oxbridge is not a place'; there is no real institution, Oxbridge, of which I am a member. I am a commoner junior member of X College, which is in Oxford, and which is incorporated into the University thereof.
I am not sure that I see or understand the motivation (cf. The Reason) behind making an 'Oxbridge' template. Your assumption that those who attend or who have attended the Universities 'can make substantiative contributions to Wikipedia, [...] [and] have the research methodology to write great articles' is generally well-founded (its argument is generally true), but this should be manifest simply from having templates for colleges each and for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge each. Each College is a separate and autonomous institution incorporated into either University, and so even having templates for the 'University of Oxford' and the 'University of Cambridge' may be pushing it.
Lastly: For these reasons and more I would not be in favour of the creation of a template, 'Oxbridge', neither would I put such a template to my name, were it to be created.
Floreat Oxon.
PETF ( talk) 17:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have this feeling that you're all flogging a dead horse - Lady A's last contribution here was on 12 March, and I imagine that she's given it all up as a bad job. -- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 01:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there really a massive strain on resources for Wikipedia?
Userboxes are in the main just a bit of frivolity for semi-active or active contributors and have no impact upon the usefulness of Wikipedia as a resource.
I much prefer my own Merton College userbox to your standardised version.
Also, the Queens College box looks odd due to the impracticability of abbreviating that college name.
-- DWR ( talk) 02:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Without wanting in any way to disparate Lady Aleena's hard work here, I'd like to make a few points. Firstly, the word 'Oxbridge' is a bit pejorative and doesn't actually refer to anything; it would be like having an 'Ivy League' box for American schools or using the ridiculous portmanteau 'Princevard' to refer to them. It's both snobbish and inaccurate. Secondly, people like me, ie non-UK citizens who did research at Oxford or Cambridge, don't really buy into this college loyalty thing. Research happens in archives and labs and college is a place to do your laundry, pick up mail and have your blood sucked by the Bursar. 'Oxonian' is about as accurate as I want to be in this.
Having said that, of course I acknowledge that others may feel differently. But I'd request them to be a bit more polite to pople who are trying to help, like Lady Aleena here. If they have points to make, they can make them without getting on to their 'Oxbridge' high horse.
Rimi talk contribs 06:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
While discussion is continuing here, it should be noted that User:Lady Aleena appears to have given up on this project. It is essentially historic. I suggest there is no point in discussing it unless someone is prepared to take over the project and spend time improving it. I would suggest that in improving it, any possibility that a user box might say anything like "This user was at Oxbridge" should be removed. However the term Oxbridge could be used as the name of the userbox, provided it only allows boxes about Oxford, Cambridge and their colleges. That is an appropriate use. I would support it if that was the case, but I have no time to work on the project. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I've tried to change New Hall to Murray Edwards College (the new name is being used from this academic year, despite the fact that the college is due to be renamed legally in May 2009), but it hasn't worked. Seeing as nobody from that college is actually using the userbox at the moment, I've left my edit in the hope that someone will spot what I've done wrong and fix it - I think I've done most of the work. Dark-Fire ( talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A lot of people have asked me why I am proposing this. The reason is that it is one of the few things that I can do for Wikipedia. You all either have attended or are attending one of these mystical institutions, while I have not. What that means is that you can make substantiative contributions to Wikipedia, while all I can do is fix links between articles and maybe a little bit of formatting here and there. You have the research methodology to write great articles, while I would not know where to begin.
My greatest contribution to Wikipedia to date is to user templates. I first started by categorizing them, then when that was as complete as possible, I started merging similar ones together and getting the then redundant templates deleted. That allowed user templates to have a smaller footprint here on Wikipedia. I have modified or created about 20 user templates and successfully merged around 170, which were deleted.
Using that success as a base, I tried to do the same with all the school user templates. I didn't realize that there would be such a negative reaction to the idea of one template to cover all schools. After seeing that reaction, I decided to narrow my focus to a small group of schools. The "Oxbridge" schools, sorry, colleges seemed to be a great place to start. There was an article on Oxbridge which showed that there was some connective tissue between the two universities, Cambridge and Oxford. That those universities had a plethora of colleges did not pose a problem. I know how to write a template that can change the colors for those colleges, abbreviations, and other details with just a few additional keystrokes.
Some of the templates that I have had great success with are time zone, Doctor Who, Monty Python, Star Trek, and Stargate. I knew that the fans of the latter four could be protective of their individual templates, but I was able to get them to agree that a merged one was just as good. The Monty Python template was a great achievement since it was so customizable to each person's favorite part of Monty Python.
I didn't realize that even on this level there would be such a great animosity to the idea of a merged template. Some of you must have had a great experience at your college to be so loyal that the idea of sharing a user template with another college is so offensive. I have never had that experience. I find the whole concept of Oxbridge intriguing and wonderful to the point where one template to cover the whole of it seemed to be a good idea.
Another reason to do this is that I am against the userbox migration to user space. These templates are being moved to a place where, in my opinion, they do not belong. The merging of templates was to be an alternative to it. Instead of moving the templates to user space, merge similar ones so that there are fewer of them to worry about. The merged templates that I have already done have been migrated to user space where they do not belong. They belong in template space with all of the other templates. If I could get a large enough group of templates merged, when I go to ask for the reversal of those moves, I could possibly convince those who have the power to put them back in template space that it would not be a bad thing.
There are 80 colleges under the Oxbridge umbrella and currently 40+ templates already created. Some of those colleges have two templates, while others have none. Some of the current templates are not being used by anyone, most have less than five users. If all of the colleges created two templates that would be 160 templates. If this one template can do the same as 160, why not have just the one? This one can be expanded to say more than the four current statuses. I was thinking about adding a "will be attending," "teaches at," and "works for," and for the fictional colleges (added or to be added for a bit of fun) "has read about." There could be other variations to those and more.
I did not follow my standard modus operandi for this template. I usually create the merged template, insert a message that the merged one is available, wait a week, then put the individual ones up for deletion. I wanted input from those who went to these colleges to make this template best serve the people attached to the colleges. I didn't expect to be so harshly criticized for the mere thought of it.
I really want this template to work, but if there is no chance, please tell me. I will get it speedily deleted and try to find another group of user templates unrelated to schools to hopefully merge that is not so controversial. - LA @ 18:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh my! After reading a few of the articles on the universities, something I read (a work of fiction) makes sense! A character kept saying that she would be "reading" a subject. That didn't make any sense to me until now. I had no clue that "reading" in this context meant that she would be "studying" a subject. Prior to this, I kept thinking that I hope that she did more than just read the subject, but study it as well. I could read a subject for a year and not really absorb a thing. Just had to share that with you for some reason. One learns something new every day. :) - LA @ 12:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice bit of tidying up, but it won't do like that I'm afraid.
Those college abbreviations are hopeless: no-one remotely connected with Oxford would recognize "MeC" as anything to do with Merton.
There are a few colleges that do have well recognise Acronyms (some of which you already have):
but most of them just use the full name. If you must shorten it then, I'd suggest an initial syllable:
Mert. Trin. Linc. Exe. Jes. Som. Worcs. StJ. Wad.
but much better to use a crest if we can or perhaps a suitable thumbnail picture? Thruston ( talk) 18:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
You asked me for comments. As you couldn't tell the difference between a school and a college, you couldn't spell college, and you couldn't spell colour, then I wasn't very impressed. David Biddulph ( talk) 18:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm also intrigued as to why you list yourself in the category of Wikipedian by alma mater for each of the colleges. I don't know which college you attended, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't all of them. David Biddulph ( talk) 19:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for asking me to comment. I agree with all the previous comments (though not necessarily with the tone of one of the contributors). Most colleges do not have a recognisable abbreivation, and they would never ever be referred to as "schools". Additionally, I'm not sure anyone would ever say they "attend Oxbridge" or are "an alumnus/a of Oxbridge" as Oxbridge is not an institution. Also in the design of the user boxes, the big "Ox" is just about recognisable as relating to Oxford, but I don't think anyone would see "Ca" and think "Cambridge". I like Thruston's idea of using the crests, as used in some of the current user boxes. Mister Ant ( talk) 19:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I hate to be boring, but I agree with Thruston and Mister Ant. The abbreviations aren't ideal. Crests would be far better. In answer to your question, I can only speak for Cambridge, but I think most people feel far more attached to their college than to the university, since it's the place where they eat, sleep, socialise and get a good portion of their teaching. The University of Cambridge is only a monolithic institution when viewed from outside; from within it's a fairly faceless, non-contact entity. Also... what exactly do you mean by the comment about "private institutions"? You seem to have a rather cynical view of Oxbridge, which in itself is of course fine, but if this is the case why are you working on Oxbridge userboxes? Muspilli ( talk) 20:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks first for asking me over here to comment. I created the two for The Queens's College. You have made a great effort. However, I question whether it was required. The existing templates are perfectly OK. I also think there is a serious problem in you doing these templates when you very clearly know very little about Oxford or Cambridge. You are going to have to listen very carefully to those of us who do know those two ancient universities and their colleges, if this is going to get accepted. First, you do not attend an Oxbridge College. You are admitted as a member and if you pay the fees while you are up in Oxford you become a member for life. I am a member of The Queen's College although I matriculated over 50 years ago. Secondly, the abbreviation for the Oxford Colleges (I have not looked at the other place) are mostly wrong. Queen's for example is normally abbreviated to "Qu". I think there is a set of standard abbreviations but I am not sure where it is. I think the colours are OK. The scarves article is probably good enough, but they are also on the infobox for each College article. I suggest you ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford for comment. College Crests are copyrighted and some have been deleted in the past. It is not fair use on a userbox. More later as I have to rush off. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I would also object strongly to a user box that refers to me as an "Oxbridge" anything. Even if I had degrees from both Oxford and Cambridge (which I'm hoping to acquire!), I would only be an 'Oxbridge' graduate in the sense that I need to be categorised with students/graduates from the two olderst universities in England. Oxbridge is also a muddy category, because England's other collegiate university, Durham, sometimes wants to be included in this category of "Doxbridge" or "Duxbridge". Must we also include them? Standardising the userboxes is a good idea, but I want to be listed as a member of Wadham College, Oxford, not a member of 'Oxbridge', because that only exists as a woolly concept. Wadhamite ( talk) 19:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone needs to point out that in one of your draft boxes, "attending All Souls College, Oxford" sounds crazy. All Souls has no undergraduates, its members are all Fellows... perhaps you could create a box saying "this user is or was a Fellow of All Souls", but it seems very unlikely to me that anyone from All Souls would want to be identified here in that way! Xn4 20:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to add to the complexity, All Souls does have small numbers of graduate students. I guess these are usally Prize Fellows but somebody more expert may be able to clarify. Jonathan A Jones ( talk) 08:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Since it has been brought up, would someone be willing to get me a list of the images for the crests for all of the colleges and halls? I am only on dial-up, so searching for images is a bit of a problem since it takes so long for them to load. I would be very grateful for any and all assistance with this. - LA @ 19:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, give me the abbreviations or short forms I should use in the right hand boxes of this template. - LA @ 20:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC) Altered - LA @ 22:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
-- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 22:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The University of Cambridge has six Schools, none of which are listed here - instead you have listed the colleges. Gingekerr ( talk) 20:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
A few points:
I didn't mean this to be anonymous, sorry: – ukexpat ( talk) 22:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Any other questions? :) - LA @ 20:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Alas, this is not a 'nice piece of tidying up' as suggested by Thruston,(who then goes on to muddy the waters still further). If it needs doing at all, the right answer is to have a template for each college, e.g. the one which as far as I can recall I designed myself for King's Cambridge, and which can be seen on my userpage. So I am in agreement with the anonymous writer of 'What am I missing here' above. Best regards, -- Smerus ( talk) 20:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
While I think your goal is admirable I'm not sure there's any call/demand for this? In fact a recent move to create one userbox for all UK academic institutions just got shot down in flames.
Obviously I should declare a vested interest having created the SEH userbox but I'm not a fan of the visual style you're using here. Firstly I hate serif fonts - can't explain it I just always have. Secondly I agree with the call to have college crests as thumbnails, a border would be nice too. A lot of work was done to set the college scarf colours in the infobox templates - are you grabbing the userbox colours from there?
I also agree that as the college abbreviations need to be looked at. Might be a bit laborious for you to find all these out but they're usually printed all over college clothing. Some off the top of my head are:
Good luck! Aula TPN 21:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Keble was always abbreviated as K.C. when I was there, being the only Oxford college with K. Many nonOxonians seemed to think we had a King's College, but we didn't. In those days, there was no Kellogg. I don't think this has impacted on Keble being K.C. Ringbark ( talk) 21:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
A couple of comments about the tag for my alma mater. The abbreviation is not Worcs as suggested above - that is the abbreviation for Worcestershire. The abbreviation is Worc. (The college website is found at "www.worc.ox.ac.uk".) Secondly, the college colours are tasteful pink and black stripes - at least they were that when I was there only just over a quarter of a century ago. My scarf was from Castells and was quite a light pink, the other scarf supplier favoured a more salmon colour.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 21:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe that "PET" would be preferable to "P". Best of luck with the project!-- Diniz ( talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi there; thanks for your note to let me know about your efforts to update and improve the college userboxes for Oxford and Cambridge. Comments in list form (primarily because I'm lazy but also for ease of reading):
Keep up the work, and don't be dissuaded from your efforts by personal attacks from other editors. Coldmachine Talk 07:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't dream of saying I had anything to do with 'Oxbridge' - but then, as I imagine no one except an impostor would use such boxes, the point may be academic. Xn4 20:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
As someone has already said, I don't think it's right in this case to lump the two universities together. I did not apply to or matriculate at or study at or graduate from Oxbridge, and I don't know anyone else who did, and I have no desire to proclaim allegiance to a portmanteau. Philip Trueman ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
To have any chance of getting this agreed, I think you will have to do the following:-
Then is might fly. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
As you have noticed us Oxford and Cambridge folks are a prickly lot. We are loyal to our Colleges, indeed much more loyal to the College than to the University as a whole. The Colleges are more successful at getting money out of old members (another term that you may not have realised is generally used more than alumni) than the University does. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I never answered your question about All Souls and intended to. When the colleges were founded they were collections of scholars. They developed to having scholars who were governing the colleges. These were called Fellows and had an MA degree that entitled them to govern the university as well as their college. Only later was the idea of undergraduate scholars formalised. All Souls never did that, so it is just a body of very distinguished Fellows some of whom hold chairs in the University or other positions and some of whom are prominent in public life and are not generally in Oxford. That one should be removed. As someone said above, it is unlikely ever to be used. -- Bduke ( talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear LA: Really the way forward is to abandon this project and think again. If you are being thwopped, it is I think because you are being rather disingenuous. It is rather as if I, who know little or nothing about US academia, took it upon myself to merge all the US educational institutions in the Ivy League under a single banner or emblem. I can imagine the rage which would (rightly) descend on me if I had the temerity to do so. There is no point in Wikipedia in categorization for categorization's sake - indeed it is one of WP's deadly sins. I would let it lie. Best regards, Smerus ( talk) 21:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
LA, I think the above is too harsh, but you will have to split the template and stop using "Oxbridge". You will never get Oxford and Cambridge folks to agree to that. Just copy the template and then remove all the Oxford stuff from one and all the Cambridge stuff from the other. Make Oxford or Cambridge respectively the defaults. If you are not prepared to do that, then you will have to forget it. Sorry. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be better to leave this project to someone who knows more about the subject. There must be something more within your own area of experience that you could work on. As a comment on the templates themselves - they do nothing for me. I would not put one of them on my page.-- Doug ( talk) 18:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that I am using Oxonian terminology here and apologize to any Tabs if at first they fail to understand.
Firstly: The term student is misleading, and potentially confusing, especially if the person in question is at Christ Church, for example. Student at Christ Church has as its equivalent term at most, if not at all other colleges, the term fellow. I take it that the student of the categories proposed so far is not intended as such. Besides, the term is not used officially in other contexts, nor, for that matter, and as far as I know, are undergraduate or graduate.
For instance, a matriculated member of a college, studying at that college, who has a degree which is not officially recognised by the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge (ie. who does not hold a degree from the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, or from Trinity College, Dublin and who has not been incorporated but matriculated), and is on the point of submitting a D. Phil thesis, would usually and casually be called a graduate student; officially, however, he has the same status as has someone in the first year of his studies having just matriculated, this latter usually and casually being called a (first-year) undergraduate (student).
Perhaps the categories could involve the terms commoner, exhibitioner, and scholar, as well as junior member and senior member in order to get past this problem. I am not sure if there is an official term, middle member, but perhaps that would be useful here, as a term parallel with those of the Common Rooms, Junior, Middle, and Senior.
Secondly: To an extent I agree with some of Bduke's comments (23:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)) above, particularly that 'Oxbridge is not a place'; there is no real institution, Oxbridge, of which I am a member. I am a commoner junior member of X College, which is in Oxford, and which is incorporated into the University thereof.
I am not sure that I see or understand the motivation (cf. The Reason) behind making an 'Oxbridge' template. Your assumption that those who attend or who have attended the Universities 'can make substantiative contributions to Wikipedia, [...] [and] have the research methodology to write great articles' is generally well-founded (its argument is generally true), but this should be manifest simply from having templates for colleges each and for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge each. Each College is a separate and autonomous institution incorporated into either University, and so even having templates for the 'University of Oxford' and the 'University of Cambridge' may be pushing it.
Lastly: For these reasons and more I would not be in favour of the creation of a template, 'Oxbridge', neither would I put such a template to my name, were it to be created.
Floreat Oxon.
PETF ( talk) 17:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have this feeling that you're all flogging a dead horse - Lady A's last contribution here was on 12 March, and I imagine that she's given it all up as a bad job. -- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 01:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there really a massive strain on resources for Wikipedia?
Userboxes are in the main just a bit of frivolity for semi-active or active contributors and have no impact upon the usefulness of Wikipedia as a resource.
I much prefer my own Merton College userbox to your standardised version.
Also, the Queens College box looks odd due to the impracticability of abbreviating that college name.
-- DWR ( talk) 02:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Without wanting in any way to disparate Lady Aleena's hard work here, I'd like to make a few points. Firstly, the word 'Oxbridge' is a bit pejorative and doesn't actually refer to anything; it would be like having an 'Ivy League' box for American schools or using the ridiculous portmanteau 'Princevard' to refer to them. It's both snobbish and inaccurate. Secondly, people like me, ie non-UK citizens who did research at Oxford or Cambridge, don't really buy into this college loyalty thing. Research happens in archives and labs and college is a place to do your laundry, pick up mail and have your blood sucked by the Bursar. 'Oxonian' is about as accurate as I want to be in this.
Having said that, of course I acknowledge that others may feel differently. But I'd request them to be a bit more polite to pople who are trying to help, like Lady Aleena here. If they have points to make, they can make them without getting on to their 'Oxbridge' high horse.
Rimi talk contribs 06:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
While discussion is continuing here, it should be noted that User:Lady Aleena appears to have given up on this project. It is essentially historic. I suggest there is no point in discussing it unless someone is prepared to take over the project and spend time improving it. I would suggest that in improving it, any possibility that a user box might say anything like "This user was at Oxbridge" should be removed. However the term Oxbridge could be used as the name of the userbox, provided it only allows boxes about Oxford, Cambridge and their colleges. That is an appropriate use. I would support it if that was the case, but I have no time to work on the project. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I've tried to change New Hall to Murray Edwards College (the new name is being used from this academic year, despite the fact that the college is due to be renamed legally in May 2009), but it hasn't worked. Seeing as nobody from that college is actually using the userbox at the moment, I've left my edit in the hope that someone will spot what I've done wrong and fix it - I think I've done most of the work. Dark-Fire ( talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)