Ludwigs, given that I've been banned from Wikipedia, I'm replying here to your post on the "Communist terrorism" discussion page.
You wrote:
"The term 'gay' meant 'happy and carefree' in the nineteenth century, now it means 'homosexual'"
The analogy you draw between "terrorism" and "gay" is flawed. Whilst "happy and carefree" and "homosexual" are clearly two different things, "terrorism" in the 19th century is not so different from "modern terrorism". To begin with, the core element of "action inspiring fear" remains unchanged. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Furthermore,
It is not at all necessary to show that the terrorism advocated by Marx was identical in all respects to “modern” terrorism. It more than suffices to show (1) that Marx advocated terrorism and (2) that Marx’s advocacy of terrorism inspired subsequent Marxist leaders such as the Bolsheviks.
More specifically, we may note that in their “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” mentioned by Kolakowsky in the passage I quoted, Marx and Engels say:
“The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition … Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising … If the forces of democracy take decisive, ,terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed” (Karl Marx – Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 5th edition 1973, pp. 244-5).
We may further note that:
(1) Lenin himself advocated the organization of revolutionary (terrorist) squads along Marxian lines, no doubt under the influence of writings like the above.
(2) Kautsky cites at least one instance of Bolshevik use of Marx quotes on terrorism to justify their own policies.
(3) Lenin in The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky quotes Engels on terror in order to support his own advocacy of dictatorship and terror – as pointed out by Robert Service.
(4) Stalin annotates with approval the Marx quote from “The Victory of Counter-Revolution” in Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism - as pointed out by Radzinski..
I think it is quite clear from the above:
(1) that (as observed by Bernstein, Kautsky and the IET) Marx and Engels advocated terrorism
and
(2) that this terrorism was to be deployed as a means of achieving political ends prior to the establishment of Socialist rule (dictatorship of the proletariat).
On balance, this confirms my earlier assertion that revolutionary terrorism has two phases,
(1) pre-revolutionary phase of anti-state terrorism (prior to the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat)
and
(2) post-revolutionary phase of state Terror (after the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat).
It follows that, as indicated by the International Encyclopedia of Terrorism, the artificial separation of anti-state terrorism and state terror/terrorism is unwarranted and illegitimate in a Marxist context as both are functions, and serve the purposes of, revolutionary violence which in turn is a manifestation of class struggle, the very essence of Marxist revolutionary ideology.
As Trotsky said: "The Red Terror is not distinguishable from the armed insurrection, the direct continuation of which it represents".
If the pre-revolutionary terror is not distinguishable from the post-revolutionary one in Marxist terms, then it seems unreasonable for us to distinguish between the two forms of terrorism in an article section dealing with the views of Marxist leaders on the subject.
IMO the treatment of pre- and post-revolutionary terrorism as two aspects or phases of the same phenomenon should be the framework within which an objective discussion can be conducted. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Justus Maximus, how many times do you have to be told that Wikipedia in not a forum for original research? To use this argument, you'd need to find a single reliable source that argued the same thing. All of it. Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Until you grasp this, all your arguments are irrelevant. This is how Wikipedia works. If you don't like it, you can (once you agree to conform to the existing rules) argue that the rules be changed. That is your right. It is not your right to ignore rules because you don't agree with them. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have already provided sources demonstrating that Marx and others advocated terrorism. These sources should be included in an article on Communist terrorism instead of being suppressed or dismissed. The article ought to be edited by historians not by political activists like Paul Siebert and yourself. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The blogosphere is abuzz with horror stories about any kind of projects purporting to be in the “public interest” and, make no mistake, Wikipedia is no exception. Still, I’ve never paid much attention to any of that until recently, when I accidentally stumbled upon this passage in a Wikipedia article mentioning a Marx quote that allegedly no editor had ever heard of.
It read:
“According to Marx, “There is only one way to shorten and ease the convulsions of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new – revolutionary terror.”
Historian Edvard Radzinsky noted that Joseph Stalin wrote a nota bene “Terror is the quickest way to new society” beside this passage in a book by Marx.”
As I recognized the quote as being from Marx’s infamous revolutionary paper, the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, I was immediately intrigued by the mysterious and strangely unprofessional words, “in a book by Marx.” I was even more intrigued by the statement of one of the editors bearing the ominous name “AndyTheGrump”, to the effect that “the supposed Marx quote is lacking a direct reference.”
I happen to be an oldfashioned sort of guy who prefers proper libraries to the internet when it comes to doing serious research on anything. I had barely ever used Wikipedia and had no experience whatsoever regarding its editorial procedures. Somewhat naively, perhaps, I had assumed the editors would be specialists in their respective fields. Surely, editors working on such an ambitious project as an article on Communist terrorism, would be expert historians well-versed in the writings of Marxist luminaries like … Marx himself, right? Well, no. These particular Wikipedia experts openly admitted they hadn’t a clue.
Grabbing a copy of Radzinsky’s Stalin, it took me just a few seconds to discover that the quote annotated by Stalin (or “Koba” as Radzinsky calls him) wasn’t actually “in a book by Marx” at all, but as Radzinsky clearly says, in Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism. A quick search in Kautsky soon confirmed the exact source: Marx’s Neue Rheinische Zeitung of 7 Nov 1848!
Little suspecting what kind of vipers’ nest I was stepping into, I decided (on 5 Oct) to clarify the situation by amending the quote to a version I felt to be more faithful to the German original, which I took from Marx and Engels, Articles from the Neue Rheinische Zeitung 1848-49, by Moscow Progress Publishers (1977), and providing all the relevant sources, complete with German-language Marx/Engels Works (Werke) plus links to German and English online versions. That was honestly all I had ever intended to do - at first. Then it occurred to me that the section kept curiously shtum on Lenin, an even greater advocate of terrorism than Marx ever was. And that was when all hell broke loose.
Not only had there been no expression of gratitude for my contribution in the first place (not that I needed any, I just found the silence rather strange), but by next day (6 Oct) I found that my version of the quote had been “amended to give the quote in full” by none other than the same editor with the ominous name (AndyTheGrump) who had been claiming all along that he had never heard of the quote!
Now, I found this rather odd, as the quote in the form given by me seemed quite adequate for the purposes of the section. In short, it showed what Marx had written about terrorism. Adding insult to injury, AndyTheGrump claimed that “the replacement of the initial part by ellipsis arguably distorted the intended meaning.” Here was someone who had admitted all along he didn’t know the quote, and now out of the blue he knew not only what the full quote was, but also, “the intended meaning”! You can imagine my bewilderment: What “intended meaning”? How did he know? Was the meaning really distorted? What was he talking about?
We all know that Marx was a journalist, right? And journalists, especially those of the politically-committed variety, just love hyperbole. So let’s learn something about the historical background to the article:
“When the National Guard tried to disperse the protesters, there were clashes, which escalated on 23 August. The Academic Legion, though refusing to join in the repression, was reluctant to side with the insurgents and stood back, a mere spectator to what followed. Lacking the support of the very people whom they regarded as their leaders, the workers stood no chance. Demonstrators were beaten with the flats of sabres, bayoneted and shot. Between 6 and 18 workers were killed, and between 36 and 152 seriously wounded (depending upon whether one believes government or radical counts). When the fighting was over, women from the more prosperous quarters of the city garlanded the National Guards’ bayonets with flowers … The Democratic Club shouted down Marx, who was then visiting Vienna, when he tried to argue that the violence was a class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. For Engels, 23 August was the moment when the middle class abandoned the cause of the people: ‘thus the unity and strength of the revolutionary force was broken; the class-struggle had come in Vienna, too, to a bloody outbreak, and the counter-revolutionary camarillasaw the day approaching on which it might strike its grand blow’. But Marx found that it was not only the middle class who were deserting the revolution; there was little sympathy for his ideas even when he addressed workers’ meetings. On 7 September, he left Vienna, grumbling at the stubborn refusal of the workers to see that they should be waging a class war against the bourgeoisie” (Mike Rapport, 1848:Year of Revolution, London: Little, Brown, 2008, pp. 230-1).
Marx, who was in Vienna at the time, must have known that the number of demonstrators killed by the National Guard was between 6 and a maximum of 18. It follows that his use of unwarranted rhetorical flourishes like “massacres” and “cannibalism” was intended to deceive the readers and fraudulently incite them to armed insurrection on false pretences. It is beyond dispute that the primary intention of the article was to incite to armed insurrection, as correctly observed by the authorities who closed down Marx’s paper on that very ground.
As various sources, such as Marx’s wife Jenny, tell us, Marx had attempted earlier that year (surprise, surprise) to stir up revolution in Belgium by buying weapons for insurgents using moneys inherited from his father – for which he had been promptly arrested and marched out of the country (Jenny Marx, “Short Sketch of an Eventful Life” in Reminiscenses of Marx and Engels, Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, p. 223).
So, far from “distorting” anything, the quote as given by me fulfilled its basic function of showing that Marx advocated terrorism for revolutionary purposes, period. By contrast, the “intended meaning” as insisted upon by AndyTheGrump, arguably conveyed the false impression that Marx only did so as a reaction to unspeakable “massacres” and “cannibalism” on the part of the authorities. Vienna’s radical workers were in fact a minority and even they completely ignored Marx’s call to armed uprising – which in the real, extra-Wikipedian world ought to speak for itself.
While I was still digesting all this, I was attacked by AndyTheGrump’s twin “expert” or, shall we say “faux”, historian Paul Siebert who deleted my Lenin quote from the article and claimed that not only that quote, but none of the Lenin quotes I subsequently provided had the word “terror” even when the accepted English translation (of The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky) clearly did so (see V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, vol. 28, Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1974, pp. 227-325) …
To cut a long story short, the article, discussion and everything else that has to do with it, has been cleverly colonized by the above “editors”, resulting in a concerted effort to suppress anything that in any way, form or shape even remotely links leading Marxists like Marx, Engels and Lenin with terrorism, and this in spite of the fact that many reliable sources expressly do so. To “experts” like AndyTheGrump and Paul Siebert no source is reliable enough when it comes to anything critical of their Marxist idols. Moreover, even the idea of an article on “Communist terrorism” seems pathologically unbearable to them. Hence their obsessive demand to alternately “re-name”, “move”, “delete” the article, etc. And everyone that dares challenge or expose their agenda is presently attacked by the whole colony, from Elen of the Roads down to our esteemed, inseparable twin “editors” and “expert historians” themselves who, as should be clear by now, behave more like second-rate political agitators (that not even former Communist regimes would employ) than genuine editors, let alone historians.
I do appreciate Martin’s effort to offer advice and help. But Martin has his own reasons to ignore some very important facts, e.g., there is no rational explanation why Elen of the Roads attacks me for my perceived “crusade to expose Marx as a terrorist” whilst colluding in Paul Siebert’s own crusade to suppress all sources showing that I am right. I was given a link to an old ANI version to make me edit the wrong page, etc., etc. The attacks on me started the minute I provided the sources for the Marx quote (which clearly frustrated some editors’ agenda to dismiss it as “unverifiable”) and culminated in a ban on me when I provided solid sources showing Marx’s advocacy of terrorism in 1848 and 1850. As far as I am concerned, I’m the only one to have provided those sources and the only one to get banned. Coincidences are possible. When they become daily occurrence they become systemic and deliberate. And, no, Martin. There is NO other arbitration. If it did exist, it would involve independent historians, not political activists. So, sorry, but it’s all a scam.
Nor will I buy into Petri Krohn’s theory that Wikipedia is a community and that so long as everything is decided communally or communistically everything is going to be alright. No sir! As historians (and some non-historians) know, there are communities or societies that are way out of order. Evil doesn’t turn into virtue just by being generally endorsed (genocide is one example that springs to mind). Petri’s logic, assuming he actually believes in it, is the perverted logic of the politically and psychologically committed. It only serves to show the advanced stage reached by the pathology having the world of Wikipedia and its inmates in its grip. I may have been banned (no surprise there), but at least I’ve rattled a few cages. To have done otherwise would have amounted to deliberate collusion in this collective self-deception. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Whereas I am prepared to take Paul Siebert’s and AndyTheGrump’s point that Wikipedia articles are written by amateurs, I would like to point out that when an article is so amateurish as to deny or suppress accepted historical facts it would be advisable to seek the collaboration of trained historians.
In addition, amateurs will profit from acquainting themselves with a balanced view on Marx and Engels’ life, beliefs and actions by studying biographies like those by Isaiah Berlin and Francis Wheen to avoid misinterpretations that may arise from an amateur reading of primary sources.
For example, AndyTheGrump on the Discussion page says that according to Engels’ own statements he did no more than transport ammunition boxes, “inspect all barricades and to complete fortifications”, etc., being appointed to those tasks by “the military commission”.
AndyTheGrump appears to ignore the fact that the Neue Rheinische Zeitung where Engels made those statements was a notorious revolutionary publication closely watched by the police (and that, incidentally, wasn’t as “obscure” as AndyTheGrump believes as it sold 5000 copies a day). Hence, it would be unreasonable to expect Engels to go into details of his revolutionary activities there.
Moreover, even an amateur historian like AndyTheGrump ought to investigate the matter further. If he did so, he would soon find out that Engels' superior was in fact none other than Marx and Engel’s old buddy and fellow communist revolutionary August Willich, and that Engels had become Willich’s chief adjutant, jointly directing operations and campaigns, and that, therefore, Engels’ role in the 1849 insurrection in Germany was not quite as trivial and innocent as suggested by that editor.
Moreover, Engels’ true intentions become evident from the sources:
“First Elberfeld, then Solingen fell into the hands of the democrats, who established ‘committees of safety’ to direct the insurrection. These committees tried to maintain as wide a consensus as possible, cooperating with the liberal, constitutional monarchists. When Marx’s close collaborator Friedrich Engels joined the insurgents at Elberfeld, he was soon expelled because he was accused of trying to convert the revolution from a movement of the ‘black-red-gold’ (the constitution) into a purely ‘red’ (social, republican) uprising” (Mark Rapport, 1848: Year of Revolution, 2008, p. 342).
It is evident from their writings that Marx and Engels intended to take control of insurrections once they had started (and of the revolutionary movement in general), by means of revolutionary cells expressly organized, prepared and kept ready for that purpose (see Marx and Engels, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League, June 1850, etc.).
True, all this may not amount to terrorism prima facie. However it does show that, like Marx, Engels was not a mere armchair revolutionary theorist but was quite prepared to put his theories into deadly practice. This is a very important point if we want to correctly analyze and assess the historical evidence.
In particular, this point represents a vital clue to Marx and Engels’ attitude to revolutionary terrorism which is relevant to the article. Having seen that we cannot reasonably expect Marx and Engels to have offered detailed description of their revolutionary theories and actions in publications like the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, we must turn to other relevant writings documenting what they actually thought.
In their “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” of March 1850 distributed amongst their followers as a circular letter, Marx and Engels say:
“The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition … Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising … If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed” (Karl Marx – Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 5th edition 1973, pp. 244-5).
Even amateur historians can see that Marx and Engels here advocate terrorism for revolutionary purposes, and this is confirmed by Bernstein, Kautsky, Kolakowski, the International Encyclopedia of Terrorism and other sources.
Whilst editors are, of course, at liberty to argue that there is no hard proof that Marx and Engels’ activities constituted terrorism sensu stricto, it is equally arguable that when a person who advocates terrorism engages in armed insurrection aiming to use terrorist acts, his activities do amount to terrorism for all practical purposes.
Whether Marx and Engels’ activities in 1848-49 did or did not constitute terrorism, it remains an indisputable fact that (a) Marx and Engels did advocate terrorism, and (b) as pointed out by Kautsky, their advocacy of terrorism (complete with original quotes) was subsequently used by later Marxists (e.g., the Bolsheviks) for their own purposes.
At any rate, it becomes evident that no objective article on Communist terrorism can be written by denying relevant historical facts, suppressing sources, or banning editors who provide them. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Objection: The above "reason" is extremely vague and does not appear to resolve the issue. It does not state whether I am still expected to remove or refactor any of the disputed pre-block remarks, and if so, what the relevant remarks are. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Further Notes:
(1) On balance, the logical and proper course of action would have been for the administrator/s to:
(2) As there is no Wikipedia rulebook it was unclear what the rules were.
(3) No evidence has ever been adduced to support the view that any rules had been broken.
(4) There were two separate issues:
The alleged “libelous statements” such as “pro-terrorist” were in fact no such thing since, as already explained on AN/I, the word “terrorist” in my posts referred exclusively and without exception to the historical period from Marx to Lenin (the period under discussion) hence it had no legal implications whatsoever in current US and international law.
The alleged “offensive remarks” such as “Marxist apologist” were no such thing either as neither the word “Marxist” nor the word “apologist” are offensive in any law that I am aware of. On the contrary, as Paul Siebert has repeatedly expressed his conviction that Marxism is a respected science, the designation “Marxist apologist” ought to be regarded by him as a compliment rather than an offence.
It follows that the arguments leading to the block had no merit and were unsupported by any recognized legislation.
(5) It should be noted that in accepted legal practice the burden of proof rests on the accuser not on the accused.
(6) As already stated, the block was not properly thought out as it didn’t take into consideration essential facts such as that I had already indicated agreement to comply with Elen’s request, and had partly complied with it. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
(7) Statements such as Elen of the Roads' on AN/I to the effect that I am conducting a "crusade to expose Marx as a terrorist" when in fact I have merely provided sources showing that Marx was known as "The Red Terror Doctor" and advocated terrorism, may be indicative of a pre-existing intent to block/ban me. Justus Maximus ( talk) 12:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Even according to Wikipedia Marxism is a "political philosophy". Were Marxism a science, its predictions ought to come true. The fact is that, as pointed out by many sources, most of Marx's predictions failed to come true. As another example, Marx states that "the history of society is the history of class struggle". This is at best a philosophical proposition and has nothing to do with science.
The belief that Marxism is a science is not even supported by the Wikipedia article. The idea of “scientific socialism” was invented by Marx and Engels themselves for propaganda purposes (it being the fad of the day to represent one’s theories as “scientific”). It has never been a scientific proposition. There are many sources showing that Marxism is not scientific, from Russell to Kolakowski to Kitching.
We only need to have a look at the many absurdities found in Capital:
As Wheen correctly observes, “Short of printing the page upside-down in green ink, Marx could hardly give a clearer signal that we have embarked on a picaresque odyssey through the realms of higher nonsense” (Karl Marx, p. 307).
Marx himself describes his book as a “work of art”, confessing that “the advantage of my writings is that they are an artistic whole” (Letters to Engels, July and August 1865).
In fact, mainstream sources show that Marxism isn’t even a proper philosophy:
On balance, it would not seem wide of the mark to affirm that Marxism is best described as a pseudo-scientific belief system and its creator as either a fantasist or a fraudster. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
unblock|Your reason here}}
, but you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first.
Elen of the Roads (
talk)
22:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)You should note that you may appeal the block, but if you sound off on your talk page like you did previously, you risk being blocked from editing here for a month as well. I recommend you use the time to think about how to put your points forward without attacking everything around you. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus Maximus ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The block appears to ignore the following facts: 1. I was responding to a post by AndyTheGrump at Talk: Communist terrorism, section "Marxism is not the only 'communism'", 18:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC) where he (not for the first time) called me "idiot", refused to retract his remark when I requested him to do so, and made further offensive remarks at 18:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC), in the same section. 2. I was also responding to posts by Snowded at Talk: Communist terrorism, sections "Preliminay Edit Proposal", 11:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC) and "Marxism is not the only 'communism'", 21:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC), where he made and repeated the unprovoked and grossly offensive remark that I was a "troll". 3. Far from "reasserting material I was blocked for previously", I very clearly stated "I removed all remarks that could have been construed as "offensive"" (18:34, 8 November 2010 UTC). Indeed I had long refactored the remarks that had been in dispute on the ANI page at the time of the first block. 4. I was subjected to unprovoked attacks by Bishonen for stating that according to a statement by Dianaa the block had been lifted unconditionally. Dianaa's statement posted above at 14:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) read: "Hi, Justus Maximus, and welcome to Wikipedia. Your block has been lifted unconditionally". In accordance with Wikipedia policy, I had assumed Dianaa's good faith and I had no reason at the time to believe her statement was untrue. 5. The alleged "offensive remarks" made by me at Talk: Karl Marx such as that TFD was not a historian, were in response to statements by Snowded made there, section "Marx and armed uprising in Belgium", at 13:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC), implying that I was telling lies: "However given your history I am not taking the sources on trust without sight of the text"; and to statements made by TFD, section "Criticism", 15:56, 11 November 2010 (UTC), implying that I was an anti-Semite: "your reference to the Jewish question is extremely offensive", when in fact (a) I had at no time either there or anywhere else referred to any "Jewish question" whatsoever but to Karl Marx's essay On the Jewish Question that was under discussion in that section, and (b) there was nothing in my statements that could have been construed even remotely as "offensive" or "anti-Semitic". In fact, TFD later apologized for his remarks (thereby implicitly admitting that they were unjustified) without however removing them, thus allowing the false accusations of anti-Semitism to linger on. 6. At no time have I made any remarks that could be construed as more "offensive" than the remarks of other editors such as TFD, AndyTheGrump, and Snowded, nor has any evidence to that effect ever been presented anywhere. The general tone of the discussion and other editors' behavior must be taken into consideration when determining whether or not my posts constitute "offensive remarks". Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
It is not appropriate or acceptable to blame others for your behavior. In order to get unblocked, you need to show a deep understanding of why your behavior got you blocked, and demonstrate that you have changed your ways and will not behave that way any more. I have posted some further comments down below.-- Diannaa ( Talk) 15:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Justus Maximus ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The allegation that I “reasserted the allegations I was blocked for previously” is false. My exact words were: “All those alleged “libelous remarks” etc. were established to be a figment of the imagination of Andy and Paul.” – Talk: Communist terrorism, “Marxism is not the only ‘communism’”, 10:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC). 1. I was clearly referring to the fact that (a) no evidence had ever been adduced to prove that phrases such as “apologist for terrorism” constituted “libelous statements”, and (b) as pointed out at AN/I and here the said phrases referred exclusively and without exception to the historical period from Marx to Lenin, and were therefore outside the scope of US or international libel law. (In other words, saying that a person is an apologist for, i.e., tries to mitigate or justify, acts of terrorism advocated or perpetrated by Marxists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, e.g., by implying that they were justified or based on scientific principles, etc., does not constitute libel). 2. It is evident from my post that I was referring to allegations made by others, and not to allegations made by myself. 3. At no time have I reasserted any of the allegations I was blocked for previously. It follows that it is factually incorrect to claim otherwise. In conclusion, the block is unjustified and should be lifted with immediate effect. Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Apart from all this, you are also blocked for incivility and personal attacks, such as at [2], [3] and [4]. You do not address this. Sandstein 13:40, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Objection to above statement by Sandstein: The block reason given by Elen of the Roads does not say "incivility" but "tendentious editing", and no definition or explication is given. I cannot address something without definition or explication as to factual instances. As for "personal attacks" I am of course prepared to retract any remarks that can be construed as such provided that the above-mentioned editors do the same. I think that is a reasonable proposition clearly demonstrating that I am a reasonable person. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Snowded, here's my original post at Talk:Communist terrorism, section "Preliminary Edit Proposal", 10:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC):
"1. On the basis of TFD’s statements it may be regarded as established that Marx advocated terrorism.
2. Marx and Engels’ 1850 Address says:
“If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.”
So, what West is referring to in his article is terrorism for revolutionary purposes. That is what Kolakowski (citing Bernstein) also says:
“The Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League made in March 1850 was Blanquist in spirit: it appeared to assume that the will to revolution and the organization of terrorism were sufficient to provide the driving force of a socialist upheaval. In general, Marx had tried to find a compromise between two socialist traditions. The first was constructive and evolutionary … The second was destructive, conspiratorial and terrorist … Marx’s thought oscillated between them, presenting different features at different times” (Main Currents of Marxism, 1979, p. 437).
It must be beyond dispute that both the primary and the secondary sources are talking about Marx’s advocacy of revolutionary terrorism in 1850. It follows that, as suggested by West, McLellan’s claim that Marx “never advocated terrorism except in 1848” cannot be characterized as anything but a falsehood.
In conclusion, my proposal is that the article should include a section on Origin/History saying something like:
“The most important source for ideologies of the left appeared with the writings of Marx and Engels, followed by the writings of later communists such as Lenin and Mao Tse-tung (Lutz & Lutz, Global Terrorism, p. 131).
Karl Marx’s thought oscillated between two socialist traditions, of which one was constructive and evolutionary, and the other destructive, conspiratorial and terrorist. Thus in 1850 he felt that organized terrorism would constitute a driving force for socialist revolution.” (Kolakowski, p. 437; Calvert (IET, p. 138). Then briefly mention the views of later Marxists like Lenin and Trotsky to illustrate their own advocacy of terrorism.
McLellan’s statement to the effect that Marx never advocated revolutionary terror except in 1848, may in theory be used as an alternative but only if rephrased to emphasize the fact that he did advocate terrorism, e.g., “Karl Marx first advocated (revolutionary) terrorism in 1848 and subsequently in Tsarist Russia.” McLellan (and Kautsky) can be given as reference. However, this alternative would entail ignoring important sources, both primary like Marx himself and secondary like Bernstein, Kolakowski, West.
So, perhaps the best solution would be a third alternative that combines the first two. Constructive suggestions are welcome."
How does the above post constitute "trolling" or warrant such grossly offensive remarks as "Troll on a soapbox"???
As for my "using sources selectively", I am of course using those sources that provide the relevant information. You can hardly expect me or anyone else to use sources that are silent on the subject under discussion. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
On Talk:Karl Marx, section “Karl Marx and armed uprising in Belgium”, 17:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC), TFD wrote:
Just a few hours earlier, at 14:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC), I had given, in the above mentioned section, the passage from Francis Wheen where he quotes Jenny Marx:
There is absolutely no mention in any of my posts of workers leaving or entering Belgium or anything of the kind. Jenny Marx’s statement is perfectly clear: it was German workers living in Belgium, period. It is of course a well-known fact that many German workers lived in Belgium. It is also well known that Marx had founded a German Workers’ Association in Brussels (end August 1847). It may or may not have been the same workers. But German workers in Brussels it was, because that is what Marx’s wife is telling us.
It is evident from the above that TFD’s questions are completely irrelevant. Why would it have been “helpful if I explained who the workers were”??? Why should it have been "easier" for Marx, who was in Belgium, to arm German workers, who also were in Belgium, "before they entered Belgium"???
What matters is that according to Jenny Marx, Marx had bought weapons for insurgent workers in 1848 as I had stated in my edit. True, Jenny Marx described the incident in 1865, i.e., 17 years after it had taken place. However, as his wife, she would have known exactly how much money Marx had inherited and what he had spent it on. There is absolutely no good reason to doubt her statement or to use irrelevant questions as a pretext for the exclusion of this piece of information from the article. And the information is relevant as evident from the text and context, and as observed by most editors there. Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I have in the meantime seen Jenny Marx’s original statement. She does not in fact specify the amount. So the question whether she does or does not correctly remember the exact sum does not arise. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
TFD also wrote:
And
Earlier, TFD had written:
Here are the facts:
1. As is well known, (a) Engels himself took part in armed uprising in 1849 as per the WP article Friedrich Engels and (b) he wrote the article in September whereas the arms purchase in question took place in February.
2. Most probably Marx had not yet received an invitation to go to France at the time. As stated by Wheen (p. 126), on 3 March, Marx had "just received" an invitation from his friend Ferdinand Flocon who had become a member of the Paris Provisional Government. Since the Republic was declared on 25 February, Marx evidently must have received the invitation around the end of February/beginning of March, leaving him plenty of time from mid-February, when he received the money, to the 3rd of March when he was issued with an order to leave Belgium within 24 hours, to finance the purchase of weapons.
3. Marx was deeply involved with German workers in Belgium, hence it makes sense for him to have financed arms purchases for them.
4. The fact that the uprising "never happened" cannot be construed as meaning that it was never planned and financed. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
5. It is also instructive to note what Engels’ “The Antwerp Death Sentences” really is all about.
We find that nowhere does he say anything about Democrats in February 1848 being told not to rise in arms. As Engels himself says, the purpose of the article is “to vindicate their honor [of the accused in the Risquons-Tout Case] before the face of German democracy.”
[The Risquons-Tout Incident referred to a up to 6000-strong band of Belgian workers living in France who had become unemployed as a result of the Paris Revolution and had attempted to stage an armed invasion of Belgium (at Quievrain on 26 March, and at Risquons-Tout on 29 March). They had been armed in France and were clearly unconnected with either German workers living in Belgium or the February events under discussion.]
Moreover, in the same article we find the following interesting passage:
Clearly, the police wouldn't plant "stage daggers" on anyone. The daggers must have been real. And if Engels is lying about the daggers being "stage daggers" we may safely infer that he is also lying about the daggers being "planted".
So, not only does Engels say nothing of Democrats in February 1848 being told by him that they "should never rise in arms", but he refers to Marx’s “German Worker’s Association” and “daggers” (the weapons mentioned by Jenny Marx) in connection with a public prosecution. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:03, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
6. What TFD also ignores is the fact that as correctly pointed out by Martin, 23:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC), Wheen (p. 127) does indicate that there is "ample evidence" beyond that from Jenny Marx, one such evidence being a memorandum of the Belgian Ministry of Justice, given by Martin, 09:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC). TFD wishes us to ignore all this on the basis of an apparently non-existent (and irrelevant even if existent) statement by Engels to the effect that "democrats should never rise in arms". Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
In the same way as one may commit a crime by committing or omitting an action, there are two ways of telling a lie: by asserting an untruth, and by omitting the truth. We have seen that Engels is lying by telling an untruth about the daggers. He is also lying by omitting some important facts.
Engels mentions three important things: Tedesco, the German Workers’ Association, and daggers. What he doesn’t mention is what links all three elements with one another and with Marx: the Communist League.
As is well known, Marx, Engels and Victor Tedesco were the heads of the subversive organization, the Communist League in Brussels, Paris and Liege, respectively. The German Workers' Association was the legal wing of the illegal Communist League. In 1847, Tedesco had accompanied Marx to London where they attended the 29 November – 8 December Congress of the League at which The Rules of the Communist League were adopted, the 1st article of which read: “The aim of the league is the overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the rule of the proletariat, the abolition of the old society and the foundation of a new society.” [6]
As the bourgeoisie (naturally enough) did not want to be overthrown, the only way of establishing the “rule of the proletariat” at the time was armed uprising. As this could hardly be directed from London, the League’s Central Authority there transferred its powers of general direction to its Brussels District Committee headed by Marx. This meant that Marx was the ringleader of the Communist League in Belgium in addition to being the leader of the German Workers' Association. When the French Revolution of 22-25 February broke out, Tedesco advocated the arming of revolutionary workers in Belgium, and as Engels' article says, he was linked by the police with people armed with daggers (and possibly other weapons). It is also clear that Tedesco wouldn't have acted without the knowledge and approval of his superior Marx.
As Marx himself tells, there was a huge gathering of revolutionary workers in Brussels on 27 February, at a meeting of the Democratic Association (founded by Marx in 1847, and of which he was the Vice-President) (“Persecution of Foreigners in Brussels”, La Reforme, 12 March 1848 [7] and the authorities responded by arresting the leaders, (League members Tedesco and Wilhelm Wolf among them). Tedesco was sentenced to death but had his conviction commuted to 15 years imprisonment.
It was only on 3 March, following the arrest of the leadership a few days before, that it was officially decided to dissolve the Brussels Central Authority and empower Marx to form a new one in Paris (Engels, “On the History of the Communist League”, Sozialdemokrat, Nov 12-26, 1885. [8]). It follows that Marx, as head of the Communist League in Brussels, leader of the German Workers' Association, and Vice-President of the Democratic Association, had every reason to concern himself with the planning and financing of armed uprising in Brussels prior to the arrest of leading revolutionaries on the 27th of February and the subsequent decision to transfer the Central Authority of the League to Paris.
The following is another document in which Engels confesses that the above-mentioned Democratic Association (whose members also belonged to the German Workers’ Association) had played a leading role in the call for the arming of the populace:
How could Marx, who was vice-president of both the German Workers’ Association and the Democratic Association, have nothing to do with the latter’s call to arm the masses?
As indicated earlier, Marx continued to advocate armed uprising and arming of revolutionary workers both overtly, in his articles, and covertly, in his circulars to the Communist League.
In sum, the following becomes evident:
1. The article needs re-writing to reflect the historical facts based on the available evidence.
2. There is no legitimate reason for TFD, AndyTheGrump and Snowded to oppose this.
3. Elen of the Roads, Sandstein, Bishonen and Diannaa should not defend the efforts of the above three editors to silence me and to prevent relevant information from being considered. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
BTW, I would like to commend the efforts of Slrubenstein and Martin to analyze and assess the relevant evidence in a neutral and objective manner. Justus Maximus ( talk) 12:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus, you are evidently quite knowledgeable about Karl Marx's period in Brussels and I feel that you have something to contribute. There is need for a detailed sub article. Perhaps you can spend the remainder of your block time creating the article in your user space, perhaps titled User:Justus Maximus/Karl Marx's Brussels period or something similar. I can assist you with this and when your block expires we can move it into main space. This is a notable topic since the Encyclopaedia Britannica has such a topic [9]. -- Martin ( talk) 10:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus, you have obviously read extensively on Marx and have a lot to contribute. The volume of policies and guidelines can be daunting for a newbie [10] and I personally think you have been severely bitten, but what is done is done and you need to take it on the chin and move on. While it may appear to someone new to Wikipedia that there is some kind of inherent bias of admins, Wikipedia is essentially chaotic but with a set of established relationships. For the most part, admins being not involved in particular disputes may not (and probably don't want to) have a deep understanding of the content issues, so they tend to give more weight to the arguments of established editors over newbies, which is fair enough. Wikipedia is a human organisation, and just like any organisation you have people who are sincere and people who game the system. I believe you are sincere. As Elen says those that can develop a strategy to adapt their behaviour accordingly will survive. Just as you have a rule against visitors to your home pooping on the carpet, Wikipedia has rules against openly expressing your opinion of people's motives. You saw how I was able to get consensus in the Marx article. That is why I think creating a subarticle in your userspace will give you an opportunity to get up to some runs one the board and I can assist. -- Martin ( talk) 19:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In 1845 Marx was expelled from Paris at the request of the Prussian government and went to Brussels where he wrote The German Ideology in collaboration with Engels and established contact with various German communist workers’ organizations.[1] In the following year, he founded the Communist Correspondence Committee whose purpose was to maintain contact with the secret propaganda organization the League of the Just and similar bodies in western Europe.[2]
At its First Congress of June 1847, subsequently known as the “inaugural Congress” of the Communist League, the League of the Just merged with the Communist Correspondence Committee, forming the Communist League, whose Brussels, Paris and Liege branches were to be headed by Marx, Engels and Victor Tedesco, respectively.[3]
In late August, Marx and Engels co-founded the Brussels German Workers’ Association which in turn played an important part in founding the Brussels Democratic Association a month later. Whilst the former became a center for rallying revolutionary forces in Belgium, the latter assumed a more international role. Marx became vice-president of both bodies.[4]
In late November and early December, Marx, Engels and Tedesco went to London to attend the League’s Second Congress at which the Rules of the Communist League were formally adopted.[5] Article 1 of the Rules read:
Marx and Engels were commissioned by the League’s Central Authority to compose a document presenting a definitive statement of its beliefs and aims, and this was published in 1848, a few weeks before the outbreak of the Paris Revolution, as the Manifesto of the Communist Party.[7] In this period, Marx believed that a successful revolution could be made by means of a coup d’etat, carried out by a small body of trained revolutionaries acting in the name of the masses and functioning as the spearhead of the proletarian attack.[8]
In the wake of the 22-25 February Paris Revolution, the London Central Authority transferred its powers of general direction of the League to the Brussels District Committee headed by Marx.[9] At its weekly meeting of 27 February, the Brussels Democratic Association assumed a leading role in the revolutionary movement and passed a resolution calling for the arming of all Belgian workers.[10] According to some sources, Marx used the substantial sum of 6000 gold francs inherited from his father to finance the purchase of arms for revolution-minded workers.[11] (see note)
On 3 March, following the arrest of leading revolutionaries, including Tedesco and German Workers’ Association secretary Wilhelm Wolff, and an invitation from a member of the Paris Provisional Government (Marx’s and Engels’ friend Ferdinand Flocon), it was officially decided to dissolve the Brussels Central Authority and empower Marx to form a new one in Paris.[12] On the same day, Marx received an expulsion order and had to leave Belgium at twenty-four hours’ notice.[13] Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
References and notes
1. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 117. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
2. Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 103. ISBN 1-84115-114-9
3. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
4. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
5. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 38, p. 146.
6. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 6, p. 633
7. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 120. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
8. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 137. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
9. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
10. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 6, p. 559.
11. (a) Jenny Marx, “Short Sketch of an Eventful Life”, Reminiscences of Marx and Engels, Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, p. 223; Jenny Marx, "Kurze Umrisse eines bewegten Lebens", 1865, J. Schütrumpf ed., Jenny Marx oder: Die Suche nach dem aufrechten Gang, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 2008, p. 57. ISBN 978-3-320-02147-4. Jenny Marx does not give any specific amount. The exact sum is given by Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 126-7. ISBN 1-84115-114-9. (b) Martin, here you can add any of your sources you believe you've reached consensus on.
12. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
13. Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 126. ISBN 1-84115-114-9
BTW it may be informative to add that by publishing the Manifesto and engaging in other political activities he was in breach of his written promise to refrain from such actions. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
According to the historian Isaiah Berlin:
But maybe Berlin is mistaken. Perhaps, as historians often do, he merely repeats what earlier historians wrote, or perhaps he misunderstands what Marx and Engels are saying? Well, here’s what their March 1850 “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” says:
It becomes evident from the very first two sentences that Marx and Engels are applying in 1850 Germany the system they had developed and attempted to put into practice in Belgium 1848: the Communist League supports the democratic (petty-bourgeois) revolution until the overthrow of the existing system, after which it turns against the democrats and seeks to overthrow them by means of a second and parallel (proletarian) revolution carried out by armed workers. The latter are led by a revolutionary workers’ party that is led by the Communist League that is led by Marx and Engels themselves.
The Brussels Democratic Association had been precisely the kind of revolutionary workers’ party that, as Engels says, had put itself at the head of the revolutionary movement and had called for the arming of all Belgian workers on 27 February. The Association of course had been controlled by Marx. Though officially Karl Wallau had been president and Marx just vice-president, the reverse had been true in the organization controlling the Democratic Association, the Communist League: Marx had been the supreme leader and Wallau his subordinate.
Since the March Address was a secret circular, it is evident that irrespective of his public position, Marx in reality was a covert Blanquist putschist, and a particularly devious one to that, operating from the center of an organization within another organization leading a clandestine revolutionary movement within the official revolutionary movement.
It follows that the key to the correct understanding of Marx and Engels is that they had two sets of agendas. An overt one (evidenced by their published writings) that was to incite the masses to armed uprising and revolution, and a covert one (evidenced by their secret circulars) that was to indoctrinate, organize, direct, and control the revolutionaries for their own purposes: a successful revolution developing along Marxian-Engelsian lines inevitably would have wound up with Marx and Engels as (official or unofficial) heads of state.
Understandably, pro-Marxist historians are of the opinion that Marx was some kind of Santa Claus. The evidence however strongly suggests he is more correctly described (to paraphrase Proudhon) as the "tapeworm" ( Cestoda) of the revolution, and more generally, of 19th-century European society. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Ludwigs, given that I've been banned from Wikipedia, I'm replying here to your post on the "Communist terrorism" discussion page.
You wrote:
"The term 'gay' meant 'happy and carefree' in the nineteenth century, now it means 'homosexual'"
The analogy you draw between "terrorism" and "gay" is flawed. Whilst "happy and carefree" and "homosexual" are clearly two different things, "terrorism" in the 19th century is not so different from "modern terrorism". To begin with, the core element of "action inspiring fear" remains unchanged. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Furthermore,
It is not at all necessary to show that the terrorism advocated by Marx was identical in all respects to “modern” terrorism. It more than suffices to show (1) that Marx advocated terrorism and (2) that Marx’s advocacy of terrorism inspired subsequent Marxist leaders such as the Bolsheviks.
More specifically, we may note that in their “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” mentioned by Kolakowsky in the passage I quoted, Marx and Engels say:
“The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition … Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising … If the forces of democracy take decisive, ,terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed” (Karl Marx – Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 5th edition 1973, pp. 244-5).
We may further note that:
(1) Lenin himself advocated the organization of revolutionary (terrorist) squads along Marxian lines, no doubt under the influence of writings like the above.
(2) Kautsky cites at least one instance of Bolshevik use of Marx quotes on terrorism to justify their own policies.
(3) Lenin in The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky quotes Engels on terror in order to support his own advocacy of dictatorship and terror – as pointed out by Robert Service.
(4) Stalin annotates with approval the Marx quote from “The Victory of Counter-Revolution” in Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism - as pointed out by Radzinski..
I think it is quite clear from the above:
(1) that (as observed by Bernstein, Kautsky and the IET) Marx and Engels advocated terrorism
and
(2) that this terrorism was to be deployed as a means of achieving political ends prior to the establishment of Socialist rule (dictatorship of the proletariat).
On balance, this confirms my earlier assertion that revolutionary terrorism has two phases,
(1) pre-revolutionary phase of anti-state terrorism (prior to the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat)
and
(2) post-revolutionary phase of state Terror (after the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat).
It follows that, as indicated by the International Encyclopedia of Terrorism, the artificial separation of anti-state terrorism and state terror/terrorism is unwarranted and illegitimate in a Marxist context as both are functions, and serve the purposes of, revolutionary violence which in turn is a manifestation of class struggle, the very essence of Marxist revolutionary ideology.
As Trotsky said: "The Red Terror is not distinguishable from the armed insurrection, the direct continuation of which it represents".
If the pre-revolutionary terror is not distinguishable from the post-revolutionary one in Marxist terms, then it seems unreasonable for us to distinguish between the two forms of terrorism in an article section dealing with the views of Marxist leaders on the subject.
IMO the treatment of pre- and post-revolutionary terrorism as two aspects or phases of the same phenomenon should be the framework within which an objective discussion can be conducted. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Justus Maximus, how many times do you have to be told that Wikipedia in not a forum for original research? To use this argument, you'd need to find a single reliable source that argued the same thing. All of it. Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Until you grasp this, all your arguments are irrelevant. This is how Wikipedia works. If you don't like it, you can (once you agree to conform to the existing rules) argue that the rules be changed. That is your right. It is not your right to ignore rules because you don't agree with them. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have already provided sources demonstrating that Marx and others advocated terrorism. These sources should be included in an article on Communist terrorism instead of being suppressed or dismissed. The article ought to be edited by historians not by political activists like Paul Siebert and yourself. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The blogosphere is abuzz with horror stories about any kind of projects purporting to be in the “public interest” and, make no mistake, Wikipedia is no exception. Still, I’ve never paid much attention to any of that until recently, when I accidentally stumbled upon this passage in a Wikipedia article mentioning a Marx quote that allegedly no editor had ever heard of.
It read:
“According to Marx, “There is only one way to shorten and ease the convulsions of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new – revolutionary terror.”
Historian Edvard Radzinsky noted that Joseph Stalin wrote a nota bene “Terror is the quickest way to new society” beside this passage in a book by Marx.”
As I recognized the quote as being from Marx’s infamous revolutionary paper, the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, I was immediately intrigued by the mysterious and strangely unprofessional words, “in a book by Marx.” I was even more intrigued by the statement of one of the editors bearing the ominous name “AndyTheGrump”, to the effect that “the supposed Marx quote is lacking a direct reference.”
I happen to be an oldfashioned sort of guy who prefers proper libraries to the internet when it comes to doing serious research on anything. I had barely ever used Wikipedia and had no experience whatsoever regarding its editorial procedures. Somewhat naively, perhaps, I had assumed the editors would be specialists in their respective fields. Surely, editors working on such an ambitious project as an article on Communist terrorism, would be expert historians well-versed in the writings of Marxist luminaries like … Marx himself, right? Well, no. These particular Wikipedia experts openly admitted they hadn’t a clue.
Grabbing a copy of Radzinsky’s Stalin, it took me just a few seconds to discover that the quote annotated by Stalin (or “Koba” as Radzinsky calls him) wasn’t actually “in a book by Marx” at all, but as Radzinsky clearly says, in Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism. A quick search in Kautsky soon confirmed the exact source: Marx’s Neue Rheinische Zeitung of 7 Nov 1848!
Little suspecting what kind of vipers’ nest I was stepping into, I decided (on 5 Oct) to clarify the situation by amending the quote to a version I felt to be more faithful to the German original, which I took from Marx and Engels, Articles from the Neue Rheinische Zeitung 1848-49, by Moscow Progress Publishers (1977), and providing all the relevant sources, complete with German-language Marx/Engels Works (Werke) plus links to German and English online versions. That was honestly all I had ever intended to do - at first. Then it occurred to me that the section kept curiously shtum on Lenin, an even greater advocate of terrorism than Marx ever was. And that was when all hell broke loose.
Not only had there been no expression of gratitude for my contribution in the first place (not that I needed any, I just found the silence rather strange), but by next day (6 Oct) I found that my version of the quote had been “amended to give the quote in full” by none other than the same editor with the ominous name (AndyTheGrump) who had been claiming all along that he had never heard of the quote!
Now, I found this rather odd, as the quote in the form given by me seemed quite adequate for the purposes of the section. In short, it showed what Marx had written about terrorism. Adding insult to injury, AndyTheGrump claimed that “the replacement of the initial part by ellipsis arguably distorted the intended meaning.” Here was someone who had admitted all along he didn’t know the quote, and now out of the blue he knew not only what the full quote was, but also, “the intended meaning”! You can imagine my bewilderment: What “intended meaning”? How did he know? Was the meaning really distorted? What was he talking about?
We all know that Marx was a journalist, right? And journalists, especially those of the politically-committed variety, just love hyperbole. So let’s learn something about the historical background to the article:
“When the National Guard tried to disperse the protesters, there were clashes, which escalated on 23 August. The Academic Legion, though refusing to join in the repression, was reluctant to side with the insurgents and stood back, a mere spectator to what followed. Lacking the support of the very people whom they regarded as their leaders, the workers stood no chance. Demonstrators were beaten with the flats of sabres, bayoneted and shot. Between 6 and 18 workers were killed, and between 36 and 152 seriously wounded (depending upon whether one believes government or radical counts). When the fighting was over, women from the more prosperous quarters of the city garlanded the National Guards’ bayonets with flowers … The Democratic Club shouted down Marx, who was then visiting Vienna, when he tried to argue that the violence was a class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. For Engels, 23 August was the moment when the middle class abandoned the cause of the people: ‘thus the unity and strength of the revolutionary force was broken; the class-struggle had come in Vienna, too, to a bloody outbreak, and the counter-revolutionary camarillasaw the day approaching on which it might strike its grand blow’. But Marx found that it was not only the middle class who were deserting the revolution; there was little sympathy for his ideas even when he addressed workers’ meetings. On 7 September, he left Vienna, grumbling at the stubborn refusal of the workers to see that they should be waging a class war against the bourgeoisie” (Mike Rapport, 1848:Year of Revolution, London: Little, Brown, 2008, pp. 230-1).
Marx, who was in Vienna at the time, must have known that the number of demonstrators killed by the National Guard was between 6 and a maximum of 18. It follows that his use of unwarranted rhetorical flourishes like “massacres” and “cannibalism” was intended to deceive the readers and fraudulently incite them to armed insurrection on false pretences. It is beyond dispute that the primary intention of the article was to incite to armed insurrection, as correctly observed by the authorities who closed down Marx’s paper on that very ground.
As various sources, such as Marx’s wife Jenny, tell us, Marx had attempted earlier that year (surprise, surprise) to stir up revolution in Belgium by buying weapons for insurgents using moneys inherited from his father – for which he had been promptly arrested and marched out of the country (Jenny Marx, “Short Sketch of an Eventful Life” in Reminiscenses of Marx and Engels, Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, p. 223).
So, far from “distorting” anything, the quote as given by me fulfilled its basic function of showing that Marx advocated terrorism for revolutionary purposes, period. By contrast, the “intended meaning” as insisted upon by AndyTheGrump, arguably conveyed the false impression that Marx only did so as a reaction to unspeakable “massacres” and “cannibalism” on the part of the authorities. Vienna’s radical workers were in fact a minority and even they completely ignored Marx’s call to armed uprising – which in the real, extra-Wikipedian world ought to speak for itself.
While I was still digesting all this, I was attacked by AndyTheGrump’s twin “expert” or, shall we say “faux”, historian Paul Siebert who deleted my Lenin quote from the article and claimed that not only that quote, but none of the Lenin quotes I subsequently provided had the word “terror” even when the accepted English translation (of The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky) clearly did so (see V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, vol. 28, Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1974, pp. 227-325) …
To cut a long story short, the article, discussion and everything else that has to do with it, has been cleverly colonized by the above “editors”, resulting in a concerted effort to suppress anything that in any way, form or shape even remotely links leading Marxists like Marx, Engels and Lenin with terrorism, and this in spite of the fact that many reliable sources expressly do so. To “experts” like AndyTheGrump and Paul Siebert no source is reliable enough when it comes to anything critical of their Marxist idols. Moreover, even the idea of an article on “Communist terrorism” seems pathologically unbearable to them. Hence their obsessive demand to alternately “re-name”, “move”, “delete” the article, etc. And everyone that dares challenge or expose their agenda is presently attacked by the whole colony, from Elen of the Roads down to our esteemed, inseparable twin “editors” and “expert historians” themselves who, as should be clear by now, behave more like second-rate political agitators (that not even former Communist regimes would employ) than genuine editors, let alone historians.
I do appreciate Martin’s effort to offer advice and help. But Martin has his own reasons to ignore some very important facts, e.g., there is no rational explanation why Elen of the Roads attacks me for my perceived “crusade to expose Marx as a terrorist” whilst colluding in Paul Siebert’s own crusade to suppress all sources showing that I am right. I was given a link to an old ANI version to make me edit the wrong page, etc., etc. The attacks on me started the minute I provided the sources for the Marx quote (which clearly frustrated some editors’ agenda to dismiss it as “unverifiable”) and culminated in a ban on me when I provided solid sources showing Marx’s advocacy of terrorism in 1848 and 1850. As far as I am concerned, I’m the only one to have provided those sources and the only one to get banned. Coincidences are possible. When they become daily occurrence they become systemic and deliberate. And, no, Martin. There is NO other arbitration. If it did exist, it would involve independent historians, not political activists. So, sorry, but it’s all a scam.
Nor will I buy into Petri Krohn’s theory that Wikipedia is a community and that so long as everything is decided communally or communistically everything is going to be alright. No sir! As historians (and some non-historians) know, there are communities or societies that are way out of order. Evil doesn’t turn into virtue just by being generally endorsed (genocide is one example that springs to mind). Petri’s logic, assuming he actually believes in it, is the perverted logic of the politically and psychologically committed. It only serves to show the advanced stage reached by the pathology having the world of Wikipedia and its inmates in its grip. I may have been banned (no surprise there), but at least I’ve rattled a few cages. To have done otherwise would have amounted to deliberate collusion in this collective self-deception. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Whereas I am prepared to take Paul Siebert’s and AndyTheGrump’s point that Wikipedia articles are written by amateurs, I would like to point out that when an article is so amateurish as to deny or suppress accepted historical facts it would be advisable to seek the collaboration of trained historians.
In addition, amateurs will profit from acquainting themselves with a balanced view on Marx and Engels’ life, beliefs and actions by studying biographies like those by Isaiah Berlin and Francis Wheen to avoid misinterpretations that may arise from an amateur reading of primary sources.
For example, AndyTheGrump on the Discussion page says that according to Engels’ own statements he did no more than transport ammunition boxes, “inspect all barricades and to complete fortifications”, etc., being appointed to those tasks by “the military commission”.
AndyTheGrump appears to ignore the fact that the Neue Rheinische Zeitung where Engels made those statements was a notorious revolutionary publication closely watched by the police (and that, incidentally, wasn’t as “obscure” as AndyTheGrump believes as it sold 5000 copies a day). Hence, it would be unreasonable to expect Engels to go into details of his revolutionary activities there.
Moreover, even an amateur historian like AndyTheGrump ought to investigate the matter further. If he did so, he would soon find out that Engels' superior was in fact none other than Marx and Engel’s old buddy and fellow communist revolutionary August Willich, and that Engels had become Willich’s chief adjutant, jointly directing operations and campaigns, and that, therefore, Engels’ role in the 1849 insurrection in Germany was not quite as trivial and innocent as suggested by that editor.
Moreover, Engels’ true intentions become evident from the sources:
“First Elberfeld, then Solingen fell into the hands of the democrats, who established ‘committees of safety’ to direct the insurrection. These committees tried to maintain as wide a consensus as possible, cooperating with the liberal, constitutional monarchists. When Marx’s close collaborator Friedrich Engels joined the insurgents at Elberfeld, he was soon expelled because he was accused of trying to convert the revolution from a movement of the ‘black-red-gold’ (the constitution) into a purely ‘red’ (social, republican) uprising” (Mark Rapport, 1848: Year of Revolution, 2008, p. 342).
It is evident from their writings that Marx and Engels intended to take control of insurrections once they had started (and of the revolutionary movement in general), by means of revolutionary cells expressly organized, prepared and kept ready for that purpose (see Marx and Engels, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League, June 1850, etc.).
True, all this may not amount to terrorism prima facie. However it does show that, like Marx, Engels was not a mere armchair revolutionary theorist but was quite prepared to put his theories into deadly practice. This is a very important point if we want to correctly analyze and assess the historical evidence.
In particular, this point represents a vital clue to Marx and Engels’ attitude to revolutionary terrorism which is relevant to the article. Having seen that we cannot reasonably expect Marx and Engels to have offered detailed description of their revolutionary theories and actions in publications like the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, we must turn to other relevant writings documenting what they actually thought.
In their “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” of March 1850 distributed amongst their followers as a circular letter, Marx and Engels say:
“The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition … Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising … If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed” (Karl Marx – Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 5th edition 1973, pp. 244-5).
Even amateur historians can see that Marx and Engels here advocate terrorism for revolutionary purposes, and this is confirmed by Bernstein, Kautsky, Kolakowski, the International Encyclopedia of Terrorism and other sources.
Whilst editors are, of course, at liberty to argue that there is no hard proof that Marx and Engels’ activities constituted terrorism sensu stricto, it is equally arguable that when a person who advocates terrorism engages in armed insurrection aiming to use terrorist acts, his activities do amount to terrorism for all practical purposes.
Whether Marx and Engels’ activities in 1848-49 did or did not constitute terrorism, it remains an indisputable fact that (a) Marx and Engels did advocate terrorism, and (b) as pointed out by Kautsky, their advocacy of terrorism (complete with original quotes) was subsequently used by later Marxists (e.g., the Bolsheviks) for their own purposes.
At any rate, it becomes evident that no objective article on Communist terrorism can be written by denying relevant historical facts, suppressing sources, or banning editors who provide them. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Objection: The above "reason" is extremely vague and does not appear to resolve the issue. It does not state whether I am still expected to remove or refactor any of the disputed pre-block remarks, and if so, what the relevant remarks are. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Further Notes:
(1) On balance, the logical and proper course of action would have been for the administrator/s to:
(2) As there is no Wikipedia rulebook it was unclear what the rules were.
(3) No evidence has ever been adduced to support the view that any rules had been broken.
(4) There were two separate issues:
The alleged “libelous statements” such as “pro-terrorist” were in fact no such thing since, as already explained on AN/I, the word “terrorist” in my posts referred exclusively and without exception to the historical period from Marx to Lenin (the period under discussion) hence it had no legal implications whatsoever in current US and international law.
The alleged “offensive remarks” such as “Marxist apologist” were no such thing either as neither the word “Marxist” nor the word “apologist” are offensive in any law that I am aware of. On the contrary, as Paul Siebert has repeatedly expressed his conviction that Marxism is a respected science, the designation “Marxist apologist” ought to be regarded by him as a compliment rather than an offence.
It follows that the arguments leading to the block had no merit and were unsupported by any recognized legislation.
(5) It should be noted that in accepted legal practice the burden of proof rests on the accuser not on the accused.
(6) As already stated, the block was not properly thought out as it didn’t take into consideration essential facts such as that I had already indicated agreement to comply with Elen’s request, and had partly complied with it. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
(7) Statements such as Elen of the Roads' on AN/I to the effect that I am conducting a "crusade to expose Marx as a terrorist" when in fact I have merely provided sources showing that Marx was known as "The Red Terror Doctor" and advocated terrorism, may be indicative of a pre-existing intent to block/ban me. Justus Maximus ( talk) 12:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Even according to Wikipedia Marxism is a "political philosophy". Were Marxism a science, its predictions ought to come true. The fact is that, as pointed out by many sources, most of Marx's predictions failed to come true. As another example, Marx states that "the history of society is the history of class struggle". This is at best a philosophical proposition and has nothing to do with science.
The belief that Marxism is a science is not even supported by the Wikipedia article. The idea of “scientific socialism” was invented by Marx and Engels themselves for propaganda purposes (it being the fad of the day to represent one’s theories as “scientific”). It has never been a scientific proposition. There are many sources showing that Marxism is not scientific, from Russell to Kolakowski to Kitching.
We only need to have a look at the many absurdities found in Capital:
As Wheen correctly observes, “Short of printing the page upside-down in green ink, Marx could hardly give a clearer signal that we have embarked on a picaresque odyssey through the realms of higher nonsense” (Karl Marx, p. 307).
Marx himself describes his book as a “work of art”, confessing that “the advantage of my writings is that they are an artistic whole” (Letters to Engels, July and August 1865).
In fact, mainstream sources show that Marxism isn’t even a proper philosophy:
On balance, it would not seem wide of the mark to affirm that Marxism is best described as a pseudo-scientific belief system and its creator as either a fantasist or a fraudster. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
unblock|Your reason here}}
, but you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first.
Elen of the Roads (
talk)
22:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)You should note that you may appeal the block, but if you sound off on your talk page like you did previously, you risk being blocked from editing here for a month as well. I recommend you use the time to think about how to put your points forward without attacking everything around you. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus Maximus ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The block appears to ignore the following facts: 1. I was responding to a post by AndyTheGrump at Talk: Communist terrorism, section "Marxism is not the only 'communism'", 18:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC) where he (not for the first time) called me "idiot", refused to retract his remark when I requested him to do so, and made further offensive remarks at 18:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC), in the same section. 2. I was also responding to posts by Snowded at Talk: Communist terrorism, sections "Preliminay Edit Proposal", 11:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC) and "Marxism is not the only 'communism'", 21:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC), where he made and repeated the unprovoked and grossly offensive remark that I was a "troll". 3. Far from "reasserting material I was blocked for previously", I very clearly stated "I removed all remarks that could have been construed as "offensive"" (18:34, 8 November 2010 UTC). Indeed I had long refactored the remarks that had been in dispute on the ANI page at the time of the first block. 4. I was subjected to unprovoked attacks by Bishonen for stating that according to a statement by Dianaa the block had been lifted unconditionally. Dianaa's statement posted above at 14:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC) read: "Hi, Justus Maximus, and welcome to Wikipedia. Your block has been lifted unconditionally". In accordance with Wikipedia policy, I had assumed Dianaa's good faith and I had no reason at the time to believe her statement was untrue. 5. The alleged "offensive remarks" made by me at Talk: Karl Marx such as that TFD was not a historian, were in response to statements by Snowded made there, section "Marx and armed uprising in Belgium", at 13:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC), implying that I was telling lies: "However given your history I am not taking the sources on trust without sight of the text"; and to statements made by TFD, section "Criticism", 15:56, 11 November 2010 (UTC), implying that I was an anti-Semite: "your reference to the Jewish question is extremely offensive", when in fact (a) I had at no time either there or anywhere else referred to any "Jewish question" whatsoever but to Karl Marx's essay On the Jewish Question that was under discussion in that section, and (b) there was nothing in my statements that could have been construed even remotely as "offensive" or "anti-Semitic". In fact, TFD later apologized for his remarks (thereby implicitly admitting that they were unjustified) without however removing them, thus allowing the false accusations of anti-Semitism to linger on. 6. At no time have I made any remarks that could be construed as more "offensive" than the remarks of other editors such as TFD, AndyTheGrump, and Snowded, nor has any evidence to that effect ever been presented anywhere. The general tone of the discussion and other editors' behavior must be taken into consideration when determining whether or not my posts constitute "offensive remarks". Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
It is not appropriate or acceptable to blame others for your behavior. In order to get unblocked, you need to show a deep understanding of why your behavior got you blocked, and demonstrate that you have changed your ways and will not behave that way any more. I have posted some further comments down below.-- Diannaa ( Talk) 15:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Justus Maximus ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The allegation that I “reasserted the allegations I was blocked for previously” is false. My exact words were: “All those alleged “libelous remarks” etc. were established to be a figment of the imagination of Andy and Paul.” – Talk: Communist terrorism, “Marxism is not the only ‘communism’”, 10:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC). 1. I was clearly referring to the fact that (a) no evidence had ever been adduced to prove that phrases such as “apologist for terrorism” constituted “libelous statements”, and (b) as pointed out at AN/I and here the said phrases referred exclusively and without exception to the historical period from Marx to Lenin, and were therefore outside the scope of US or international libel law. (In other words, saying that a person is an apologist for, i.e., tries to mitigate or justify, acts of terrorism advocated or perpetrated by Marxists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, e.g., by implying that they were justified or based on scientific principles, etc., does not constitute libel). 2. It is evident from my post that I was referring to allegations made by others, and not to allegations made by myself. 3. At no time have I reasserted any of the allegations I was blocked for previously. It follows that it is factually incorrect to claim otherwise. In conclusion, the block is unjustified and should be lifted with immediate effect. Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Apart from all this, you are also blocked for incivility and personal attacks, such as at [2], [3] and [4]. You do not address this. Sandstein 13:40, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Objection to above statement by Sandstein: The block reason given by Elen of the Roads does not say "incivility" but "tendentious editing", and no definition or explication is given. I cannot address something without definition or explication as to factual instances. As for "personal attacks" I am of course prepared to retract any remarks that can be construed as such provided that the above-mentioned editors do the same. I think that is a reasonable proposition clearly demonstrating that I am a reasonable person. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Snowded, here's my original post at Talk:Communist terrorism, section "Preliminary Edit Proposal", 10:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC):
"1. On the basis of TFD’s statements it may be regarded as established that Marx advocated terrorism.
2. Marx and Engels’ 1850 Address says:
“If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.”
So, what West is referring to in his article is terrorism for revolutionary purposes. That is what Kolakowski (citing Bernstein) also says:
“The Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League made in March 1850 was Blanquist in spirit: it appeared to assume that the will to revolution and the organization of terrorism were sufficient to provide the driving force of a socialist upheaval. In general, Marx had tried to find a compromise between two socialist traditions. The first was constructive and evolutionary … The second was destructive, conspiratorial and terrorist … Marx’s thought oscillated between them, presenting different features at different times” (Main Currents of Marxism, 1979, p. 437).
It must be beyond dispute that both the primary and the secondary sources are talking about Marx’s advocacy of revolutionary terrorism in 1850. It follows that, as suggested by West, McLellan’s claim that Marx “never advocated terrorism except in 1848” cannot be characterized as anything but a falsehood.
In conclusion, my proposal is that the article should include a section on Origin/History saying something like:
“The most important source for ideologies of the left appeared with the writings of Marx and Engels, followed by the writings of later communists such as Lenin and Mao Tse-tung (Lutz & Lutz, Global Terrorism, p. 131).
Karl Marx’s thought oscillated between two socialist traditions, of which one was constructive and evolutionary, and the other destructive, conspiratorial and terrorist. Thus in 1850 he felt that organized terrorism would constitute a driving force for socialist revolution.” (Kolakowski, p. 437; Calvert (IET, p. 138). Then briefly mention the views of later Marxists like Lenin and Trotsky to illustrate their own advocacy of terrorism.
McLellan’s statement to the effect that Marx never advocated revolutionary terror except in 1848, may in theory be used as an alternative but only if rephrased to emphasize the fact that he did advocate terrorism, e.g., “Karl Marx first advocated (revolutionary) terrorism in 1848 and subsequently in Tsarist Russia.” McLellan (and Kautsky) can be given as reference. However, this alternative would entail ignoring important sources, both primary like Marx himself and secondary like Bernstein, Kolakowski, West.
So, perhaps the best solution would be a third alternative that combines the first two. Constructive suggestions are welcome."
How does the above post constitute "trolling" or warrant such grossly offensive remarks as "Troll on a soapbox"???
As for my "using sources selectively", I am of course using those sources that provide the relevant information. You can hardly expect me or anyone else to use sources that are silent on the subject under discussion. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
On Talk:Karl Marx, section “Karl Marx and armed uprising in Belgium”, 17:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC), TFD wrote:
Just a few hours earlier, at 14:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC), I had given, in the above mentioned section, the passage from Francis Wheen where he quotes Jenny Marx:
There is absolutely no mention in any of my posts of workers leaving or entering Belgium or anything of the kind. Jenny Marx’s statement is perfectly clear: it was German workers living in Belgium, period. It is of course a well-known fact that many German workers lived in Belgium. It is also well known that Marx had founded a German Workers’ Association in Brussels (end August 1847). It may or may not have been the same workers. But German workers in Brussels it was, because that is what Marx’s wife is telling us.
It is evident from the above that TFD’s questions are completely irrelevant. Why would it have been “helpful if I explained who the workers were”??? Why should it have been "easier" for Marx, who was in Belgium, to arm German workers, who also were in Belgium, "before they entered Belgium"???
What matters is that according to Jenny Marx, Marx had bought weapons for insurgent workers in 1848 as I had stated in my edit. True, Jenny Marx described the incident in 1865, i.e., 17 years after it had taken place. However, as his wife, she would have known exactly how much money Marx had inherited and what he had spent it on. There is absolutely no good reason to doubt her statement or to use irrelevant questions as a pretext for the exclusion of this piece of information from the article. And the information is relevant as evident from the text and context, and as observed by most editors there. Justus Maximus ( talk) 13:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I have in the meantime seen Jenny Marx’s original statement. She does not in fact specify the amount. So the question whether she does or does not correctly remember the exact sum does not arise. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
TFD also wrote:
And
Earlier, TFD had written:
Here are the facts:
1. As is well known, (a) Engels himself took part in armed uprising in 1849 as per the WP article Friedrich Engels and (b) he wrote the article in September whereas the arms purchase in question took place in February.
2. Most probably Marx had not yet received an invitation to go to France at the time. As stated by Wheen (p. 126), on 3 March, Marx had "just received" an invitation from his friend Ferdinand Flocon who had become a member of the Paris Provisional Government. Since the Republic was declared on 25 February, Marx evidently must have received the invitation around the end of February/beginning of March, leaving him plenty of time from mid-February, when he received the money, to the 3rd of March when he was issued with an order to leave Belgium within 24 hours, to finance the purchase of weapons.
3. Marx was deeply involved with German workers in Belgium, hence it makes sense for him to have financed arms purchases for them.
4. The fact that the uprising "never happened" cannot be construed as meaning that it was never planned and financed. Justus Maximus ( talk) 15:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
5. It is also instructive to note what Engels’ “The Antwerp Death Sentences” really is all about.
We find that nowhere does he say anything about Democrats in February 1848 being told not to rise in arms. As Engels himself says, the purpose of the article is “to vindicate their honor [of the accused in the Risquons-Tout Case] before the face of German democracy.”
[The Risquons-Tout Incident referred to a up to 6000-strong band of Belgian workers living in France who had become unemployed as a result of the Paris Revolution and had attempted to stage an armed invasion of Belgium (at Quievrain on 26 March, and at Risquons-Tout on 29 March). They had been armed in France and were clearly unconnected with either German workers living in Belgium or the February events under discussion.]
Moreover, in the same article we find the following interesting passage:
Clearly, the police wouldn't plant "stage daggers" on anyone. The daggers must have been real. And if Engels is lying about the daggers being "stage daggers" we may safely infer that he is also lying about the daggers being "planted".
So, not only does Engels say nothing of Democrats in February 1848 being told by him that they "should never rise in arms", but he refers to Marx’s “German Worker’s Association” and “daggers” (the weapons mentioned by Jenny Marx) in connection with a public prosecution. Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:03, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
6. What TFD also ignores is the fact that as correctly pointed out by Martin, 23:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC), Wheen (p. 127) does indicate that there is "ample evidence" beyond that from Jenny Marx, one such evidence being a memorandum of the Belgian Ministry of Justice, given by Martin, 09:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC). TFD wishes us to ignore all this on the basis of an apparently non-existent (and irrelevant even if existent) statement by Engels to the effect that "democrats should never rise in arms". Justus Maximus ( talk) 14:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
In the same way as one may commit a crime by committing or omitting an action, there are two ways of telling a lie: by asserting an untruth, and by omitting the truth. We have seen that Engels is lying by telling an untruth about the daggers. He is also lying by omitting some important facts.
Engels mentions three important things: Tedesco, the German Workers’ Association, and daggers. What he doesn’t mention is what links all three elements with one another and with Marx: the Communist League.
As is well known, Marx, Engels and Victor Tedesco were the heads of the subversive organization, the Communist League in Brussels, Paris and Liege, respectively. The German Workers' Association was the legal wing of the illegal Communist League. In 1847, Tedesco had accompanied Marx to London where they attended the 29 November – 8 December Congress of the League at which The Rules of the Communist League were adopted, the 1st article of which read: “The aim of the league is the overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the rule of the proletariat, the abolition of the old society and the foundation of a new society.” [6]
As the bourgeoisie (naturally enough) did not want to be overthrown, the only way of establishing the “rule of the proletariat” at the time was armed uprising. As this could hardly be directed from London, the League’s Central Authority there transferred its powers of general direction to its Brussels District Committee headed by Marx. This meant that Marx was the ringleader of the Communist League in Belgium in addition to being the leader of the German Workers' Association. When the French Revolution of 22-25 February broke out, Tedesco advocated the arming of revolutionary workers in Belgium, and as Engels' article says, he was linked by the police with people armed with daggers (and possibly other weapons). It is also clear that Tedesco wouldn't have acted without the knowledge and approval of his superior Marx.
As Marx himself tells, there was a huge gathering of revolutionary workers in Brussels on 27 February, at a meeting of the Democratic Association (founded by Marx in 1847, and of which he was the Vice-President) (“Persecution of Foreigners in Brussels”, La Reforme, 12 March 1848 [7] and the authorities responded by arresting the leaders, (League members Tedesco and Wilhelm Wolf among them). Tedesco was sentenced to death but had his conviction commuted to 15 years imprisonment.
It was only on 3 March, following the arrest of the leadership a few days before, that it was officially decided to dissolve the Brussels Central Authority and empower Marx to form a new one in Paris (Engels, “On the History of the Communist League”, Sozialdemokrat, Nov 12-26, 1885. [8]). It follows that Marx, as head of the Communist League in Brussels, leader of the German Workers' Association, and Vice-President of the Democratic Association, had every reason to concern himself with the planning and financing of armed uprising in Brussels prior to the arrest of leading revolutionaries on the 27th of February and the subsequent decision to transfer the Central Authority of the League to Paris.
The following is another document in which Engels confesses that the above-mentioned Democratic Association (whose members also belonged to the German Workers’ Association) had played a leading role in the call for the arming of the populace:
How could Marx, who was vice-president of both the German Workers’ Association and the Democratic Association, have nothing to do with the latter’s call to arm the masses?
As indicated earlier, Marx continued to advocate armed uprising and arming of revolutionary workers both overtly, in his articles, and covertly, in his circulars to the Communist League.
In sum, the following becomes evident:
1. The article needs re-writing to reflect the historical facts based on the available evidence.
2. There is no legitimate reason for TFD, AndyTheGrump and Snowded to oppose this.
3. Elen of the Roads, Sandstein, Bishonen and Diannaa should not defend the efforts of the above three editors to silence me and to prevent relevant information from being considered. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
BTW, I would like to commend the efforts of Slrubenstein and Martin to analyze and assess the relevant evidence in a neutral and objective manner. Justus Maximus ( talk) 12:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus, you are evidently quite knowledgeable about Karl Marx's period in Brussels and I feel that you have something to contribute. There is need for a detailed sub article. Perhaps you can spend the remainder of your block time creating the article in your user space, perhaps titled User:Justus Maximus/Karl Marx's Brussels period or something similar. I can assist you with this and when your block expires we can move it into main space. This is a notable topic since the Encyclopaedia Britannica has such a topic [9]. -- Martin ( talk) 10:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Justus, you have obviously read extensively on Marx and have a lot to contribute. The volume of policies and guidelines can be daunting for a newbie [10] and I personally think you have been severely bitten, but what is done is done and you need to take it on the chin and move on. While it may appear to someone new to Wikipedia that there is some kind of inherent bias of admins, Wikipedia is essentially chaotic but with a set of established relationships. For the most part, admins being not involved in particular disputes may not (and probably don't want to) have a deep understanding of the content issues, so they tend to give more weight to the arguments of established editors over newbies, which is fair enough. Wikipedia is a human organisation, and just like any organisation you have people who are sincere and people who game the system. I believe you are sincere. As Elen says those that can develop a strategy to adapt their behaviour accordingly will survive. Just as you have a rule against visitors to your home pooping on the carpet, Wikipedia has rules against openly expressing your opinion of people's motives. You saw how I was able to get consensus in the Marx article. That is why I think creating a subarticle in your userspace will give you an opportunity to get up to some runs one the board and I can assist. -- Martin ( talk) 19:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
In 1845 Marx was expelled from Paris at the request of the Prussian government and went to Brussels where he wrote The German Ideology in collaboration with Engels and established contact with various German communist workers’ organizations.[1] In the following year, he founded the Communist Correspondence Committee whose purpose was to maintain contact with the secret propaganda organization the League of the Just and similar bodies in western Europe.[2]
At its First Congress of June 1847, subsequently known as the “inaugural Congress” of the Communist League, the League of the Just merged with the Communist Correspondence Committee, forming the Communist League, whose Brussels, Paris and Liege branches were to be headed by Marx, Engels and Victor Tedesco, respectively.[3]
In late August, Marx and Engels co-founded the Brussels German Workers’ Association which in turn played an important part in founding the Brussels Democratic Association a month later. Whilst the former became a center for rallying revolutionary forces in Belgium, the latter assumed a more international role. Marx became vice-president of both bodies.[4]
In late November and early December, Marx, Engels and Tedesco went to London to attend the League’s Second Congress at which the Rules of the Communist League were formally adopted.[5] Article 1 of the Rules read:
Marx and Engels were commissioned by the League’s Central Authority to compose a document presenting a definitive statement of its beliefs and aims, and this was published in 1848, a few weeks before the outbreak of the Paris Revolution, as the Manifesto of the Communist Party.[7] In this period, Marx believed that a successful revolution could be made by means of a coup d’etat, carried out by a small body of trained revolutionaries acting in the name of the masses and functioning as the spearhead of the proletarian attack.[8]
In the wake of the 22-25 February Paris Revolution, the London Central Authority transferred its powers of general direction of the League to the Brussels District Committee headed by Marx.[9] At its weekly meeting of 27 February, the Brussels Democratic Association assumed a leading role in the revolutionary movement and passed a resolution calling for the arming of all Belgian workers.[10] According to some sources, Marx used the substantial sum of 6000 gold francs inherited from his father to finance the purchase of arms for revolution-minded workers.[11] (see note)
On 3 March, following the arrest of leading revolutionaries, including Tedesco and German Workers’ Association secretary Wilhelm Wolff, and an invitation from a member of the Paris Provisional Government (Marx’s and Engels’ friend Ferdinand Flocon), it was officially decided to dissolve the Brussels Central Authority and empower Marx to form a new one in Paris.[12] On the same day, Marx received an expulsion order and had to leave Belgium at twenty-four hours’ notice.[13] Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
References and notes
1. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 117. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
2. Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 103. ISBN 1-84115-114-9
3. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
4. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
5. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 38, p. 146.
6. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 6, p. 633
7. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 120. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
8. Isaiah Berlin, Karl Marx, 4th ed. 1978, New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 137. ISBN 978-0-19-510326-7
9. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
10. Marx/Engels Collected Works, Moscow: Progress Publishers, vol. 6, p. 559.
11. (a) Jenny Marx, “Short Sketch of an Eventful Life”, Reminiscences of Marx and Engels, Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, p. 223; Jenny Marx, "Kurze Umrisse eines bewegten Lebens", 1865, J. Schütrumpf ed., Jenny Marx oder: Die Suche nach dem aufrechten Gang, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, 2008, p. 57. ISBN 978-3-320-02147-4. Jenny Marx does not give any specific amount. The exact sum is given by Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 126-7. ISBN 1-84115-114-9. (b) Martin, here you can add any of your sources you believe you've reached consensus on.
12. Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, vol. 21, 1975, pp. 206-224.
13. Francis Wheen, Karl Marx, London: Fourth Estate, 1999, p. 126. ISBN 1-84115-114-9
BTW it may be informative to add that by publishing the Manifesto and engaging in other political activities he was in breach of his written promise to refrain from such actions. Justus Maximus ( talk) 11:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
According to the historian Isaiah Berlin:
But maybe Berlin is mistaken. Perhaps, as historians often do, he merely repeats what earlier historians wrote, or perhaps he misunderstands what Marx and Engels are saying? Well, here’s what their March 1850 “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League” says:
It becomes evident from the very first two sentences that Marx and Engels are applying in 1850 Germany the system they had developed and attempted to put into practice in Belgium 1848: the Communist League supports the democratic (petty-bourgeois) revolution until the overthrow of the existing system, after which it turns against the democrats and seeks to overthrow them by means of a second and parallel (proletarian) revolution carried out by armed workers. The latter are led by a revolutionary workers’ party that is led by the Communist League that is led by Marx and Engels themselves.
The Brussels Democratic Association had been precisely the kind of revolutionary workers’ party that, as Engels says, had put itself at the head of the revolutionary movement and had called for the arming of all Belgian workers on 27 February. The Association of course had been controlled by Marx. Though officially Karl Wallau had been president and Marx just vice-president, the reverse had been true in the organization controlling the Democratic Association, the Communist League: Marx had been the supreme leader and Wallau his subordinate.
Since the March Address was a secret circular, it is evident that irrespective of his public position, Marx in reality was a covert Blanquist putschist, and a particularly devious one to that, operating from the center of an organization within another organization leading a clandestine revolutionary movement within the official revolutionary movement.
It follows that the key to the correct understanding of Marx and Engels is that they had two sets of agendas. An overt one (evidenced by their published writings) that was to incite the masses to armed uprising and revolution, and a covert one (evidenced by their secret circulars) that was to indoctrinate, organize, direct, and control the revolutionaries for their own purposes: a successful revolution developing along Marxian-Engelsian lines inevitably would have wound up with Marx and Engels as (official or unofficial) heads of state.
Understandably, pro-Marxist historians are of the opinion that Marx was some kind of Santa Claus. The evidence however strongly suggests he is more correctly described (to paraphrase Proudhon) as the "tapeworm" ( Cestoda) of the revolution, and more generally, of 19th-century European society. Justus Maximus ( talk) 10:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)