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I have placed a statement here earlier, stating if there such thing as Wikipedia for Kids. I have looked at all of them and I think there should be a new one. None where kid-friendly. Gregory Heffley ( talk) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Oddly this is the third time I have come across a discussion on this topic recently, and found that nobody seems to be aware of the Wikipedia CD Selection, AKA Wikipedia for schools. No pop culture or porn articles, no gory or sexual images, and you can't vandalize it. I think it would be great if it were actually online. It could be left static, new versions of articles could be imported but it would not be editable by the general public, meaning it would require very little administration. However, so far nobody but me seems to like this idea and I don't have the server space or the technical know-how to do it myself. Beeblebrox ( talk) 23:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
How about it, Jimbo? How about getting the Wikipedia CD Selection online and linked to from the English Wikipedia? Is this something you would be willing to put on the Foundation's plate? Perhaps there are deal-killers here that we're not seeing? Herostratus ( talk) 03:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Jimbo and Jimbo page watchers. rev:100000 was just committed to MediaWiki subversion repository. Congratulations to everyone. -- Meno25 ( talk) 01:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
The page was deleted -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(Street_Meat) -- they came after it big big guns. I wish to go on record that this experience was personal, contentious and has had a stifling effect. Thank you Mig (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC) Mig ( talk) 14:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for a new Wikipedia. Tentatively call it WikiFinance. I am writing this to you as a finance professional who has spent over 20yrs in the industry, as a person passionate about technology and as a believer in the unfolding era of social collaboration transforming businesses & global economies.
Here is the case for a WikiFinance as a separate new project for WikiPedia:
The Global financial crisis (GFC) has shown that the current financial structure in unsustainable. Some of the key causes of the crisis a) improper credit rating as rating agencies were paid by the companies who sought rating i.e. moral hazard b) inability of select/limited staff of rating agencies to evaluate all the complexities involved in understand macro & micro factors driving risks. c) information arbitrage by investment banks and hedge funds like Goldman Sachs/Paulson (large team of analysts, close access to key information sources, etc) which allows them to make supernormal profits at the cost of small individuals.
Solution: Start WikiFinance as a collaborative effort by millions of people around the world to analyse, comment on and freely distribute intelligent information and analysis on companies and economies to everyone.
Observations: What the GFC has shown is that bloggers like nakedcapitalism.com or creditwritedowns.com have become more popular than traditional sources for informed analysis. There are millions of academicians, press and ordinary individuals who are posting their comments in multiple blogs/websites, but there is no true collaboration as there is no central place where they can collaborate to comment on the same issue.
Imagine if we had a central WikiFinance to analyse companies, take AIG for example. Imagine, Wiki had a WikiFinance page on AIG where every person who has interacted with AIG were allowed to post their comments. We would have go a) thousands of analysts and academia analyzing their financial statements jointly b) hundreds/thousands of people in the financial services industry could have been whistle blowers in pointing out how they were mispricing the options they were writing c) people could have vetted the CDO documents and pointed out all kinds of toxic assets injected into those and d) regulators could have tracked these and stopped them for blowing up the way they did much earlier.
Imagine: If Mr Bloomberg allows corporate financial statements into WikiFinance as a regular feed (anyway information is public) and all the people who deal with the company (suppliers, customers, bankers, analysts, neighbors, etc) are allowed to comment on a company in a central WikiFinance space - we could be reinventing the financial sector on a bottom up basis. Just create individual company pages, feed free data from Edgar/SEC/Bloomberg, allow analysts/academics to analyse the financial statements, allow customers to comment on their user experience, allow suppliers to comment on their experience with each company. We would have achieved full transparency and contributed to fixing the worlds broken financial sector.
The birth of new collaborative, democratic and a more fair financial sector is possible through WikiFinance. The opportunity, technology and need is very clear. The potential contribution to the world is also very clear. Is Wikipedia willing to enable/allow this change to happen?
What do you think? Thanks for reading so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NWITP ( talk • contribs) 08:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy, hope you're well. I'm wondering if you could help me out with something here - I've gone through the usual channels but have been stymied, so thought I might bump it right up the chain for your opinion.
I've had a username here on hold for all of the nine years I've been around. It was, in fact, the username I originally registered with, although I didn't use it, deciding instead to go with my real name. These days, it's the name I use everywhere online - I'm detaching from my real name for personal reasons - and I'd like my Wikipedia presence to be no exception to that. So, I requested in the usual place to get switched over. That was a year ago ( [3]); but at the time I was informed that somebody had registered on zh.wiki with the same name, so I wouldn't be able to get SUL unless they said it was okay. Over the course of the following year I tried several times to get in touch with them, but unsuccessfully.
I filed an updated request ( [4]), asking for an exception to be made because the Chinese user in question has only ever made 112 edits in three years ( [5]), none in months, and only ever to zh.wiki. My gut feeling as an admin is that it's extremely unlikely they'll ever need SUL or make cross-language edits. The 'crat I dealt with advised me to make a steward request, so I did ( [6]), but was given the brush-off - quite politely, but still so.
Basically I'd like to ask you if, given my long association with the project, I could be trusted enough to have the rules bent a very little for me, and if you could intercede on my behalf.
Many thanks for your time, whatever you decide. Best wishes, — Hex (❝?!❞) 11:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
File:R37-yo0365-Orden-dvoglavog-orla-s-macevima.png | The Serbian Barnstar of National Merit | |
You deserve it! | ||
This WikiAward was given to Jimbo Wales by WhiteWriter speaks on 19:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC) |
How exactly does Jimbo deserve the Serbian Barnstar of National Merit, I don't follow, or are we a little starstruck here? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, I have a confession to make. I purpously made an incorrect edit (in my view) in place of birth in George Washington article to illustrate a point and I feel bad now. However, the main problem is that I actually did nothing wrong, because incredibly, we dont have a principle written on this! So this creates a situation of having a general consensus among senior editors to use historical accuracy for place of birth, but editors editing against this consensus end up being allowed because people never made an effort to finish the discussion and writte a short note about this at WP:MOSBIO.
To me seems pretty obvious that Lenin was not born neither died in modern day Russia, but was born in Russian Empire and died in Soviet Union. Hitler obviously was not born in modern day Austria but in Austria-Hungary, just as George Washington, the article I vandalised in my view, was obviously not born in the United States but in Colony of Virginia.
However, all this is relative because we don´t have a rule on this, so people can actually use current states for place of birth, even if they didn´t existed at time of birth, something completely illogical. For exemple, how can a person be born in, for exemple, in a country called Eritrea in 1980 if the country only gained independence in 1991?
I just noteced my edit was reverted (thanks God! I couldn´t stand my own crime) with the edit summary of "unsourced". But here is the problem: sourcing a place of birth for well known historical figures is easy, as there are easily available scholarly sources saying precisely the historically accurate place of birth. But what about sportspeople, less known modern artists, etc.? They often use sources which are not specialised in history and geography, and may vary for exemple in using Soviet Union or current-day states for footballers for exemple. It was with sportspeople that this time the problem started. Within the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football there is a general consensus to use historically accurate names of cities and countries at time of birth of a person, and many editors made a huge effort in fighting (what we called) vandalism of numerous IP´s and nationalistically motivated editors to replace former countries by the new ones. This war was specially active in past 3 to 5 years, however nowadays the Yugoslavia´s, Soviet Union´s, Zaire´s, etc. had finally seemed to become accepted and suffer less reverting recetly. However this time a group of Estonian editors had started questioning all agreed and saying that current states are the ones to be used. Now, the problem is that we are basically tighed-up about this, because we lack written principle defending historical accuracy, and because sources may easily say one or onother, depending on their seriousness about that specific issue, as most are not specialised in place of birth. So basically, they remove a precise place of birth of the person when born, and replace it by the current state, and we cannot do nothing about it as we lack principle on this.
I do understand that there were discussions in the past over this issue and nothing was agreed, however seems incredible that the situation continues like this. Many dedicated editors have lost much time around this issue. I also supose that often the past discussions were not successfull because many users were uninformed about them, so now there is a chance at least to finish the discussion. I really beleave we could easily apply the historical accuracy for place of birth, by this meaning to use the city and country that existed at time the person was born, and also, most important excyclopedia´s treat the issue that was as well. If not, we don´t apply what I stand for, but my only wish is to have a principle on this to solve this frequently problematic issue.
I know this sounds like a desperate call for attention, but it is just unbeleavable that we still lack a principle or note on this and the situation has become a bit intolerable. The current discussion is taking place here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Country_of_birth.2C_for_historic_.28and_current.29_bios.2C_part_II. Best regards, FkpCascais ( talk) 03:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, my sons call me Timbo!
Just a couple of thoughts, and you can reach out to me if you want to follow up.
My specialty is pricing, and at its core is the concept of "Managing the Value Exchange". The concept is that your sales force and customers must be forced to acknowledge and pay for value delivery. That's why public radio interrupts programming and does not resume until their goals are met. The truth is we all want everything for free as long as we can get it. Gatting paid starts by saying "no". One option you should consider is taking the site down and asking people for money. If they contribute they get immediate access. If not, they need to wait for two days. There are probably other options, but no time to think of them now.
Good luck,love your service.
75.171.244.204 ( talk) 15:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I want to ask you why you think that it would be a good idea.-- Müdigkeit ( talk) 18:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Why isn't Wikipedia encrypted?Because,there are lots of fake Wikipedia websites on the net.Please look over this issue if you can.I,myself,detected a phishing Wikipedia website claiming it is the original,and encouraging people to log-in on their website.Nearly 45% of Wikipedia accounts are compromised every year for these fake websites.If you can,can you please reply on my talk page? Dipankan001 ( talk) 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Are these edits appropriate [7] [8] [9] [10]? This editor is removing information sources to reliable sources and claiming "unnecessary gossip". Surely its relevant to mention that somebody was with somebody for 4 years? Would you fail to mention Bennifer in the Ben Affleck and J-Lo articles for instance?I mean the Ben Affleck article mentions relationships he had for just 2 years and says things like "Despite a wedding planned for September 14, the couple broke up in 2004, both blaming the media attention - including an alleged incident in which Affleck partied with Christian Slater and some lap dancers in Vancouver." It is a Good Article and if anything that is far more "gossipy" than the articles he's removing stuff from every day. I think its very relevant to mention long term relationships if covered in multiple reliable sources. Its different if it is a brief fling. Any thoughts because this editor removes information from every actor article even if well-sourced and encyclopedic.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I think Hullaballoo should be commended for convincing so many former contributors to go elsewhere to add actual information to projects. Some of my own experiences with Mr. Wolfowitz' trademark article-stalking and edit-warring can be glimpsed in such edits as [15], [16], and [17]-- in which he repeatedly mass-removed neutral, sourced descriptions of videos, claiming they described the subject's life-- or [18] in which he repeatedly edit-warred out a sourced claim that he simply didn't like (an "adult" performer known for her breasts). Behavior such as this from Wikipedia's most-admired Admins and editors (as opposed to hard-working contributors) convinced me that I had a choice to make: 1) Play the "Wikipedia game" or 2) go somewhere else to work on contributing sourced information-- which was my reason for coming here in the first place. Thank you again for showing me how admired game-players are, and how despised contributors are here, Mr. Wolfowitz. Dekkappai ( talk) 23:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Relevant to a mature understanding of this topic is Kayfabe - a term from the world of professional wrestling, but which applies in a wider context. Individual cases require thoughtful judgment, but one thing we should be clear on: not everything in tabloids is true. A fair amount of it is staged PR fluff. Another portion of it is simply bad reporting that the stars don't complain about because it is harmless. There are often good reasons to take it all with a grain of salt.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 17:15, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Following up on your comment at Talk:Touré#Request for respectful delay and the previous discussion on your talk page, has there been any progress on this issue? TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, I'm bringing to your attention this recent discussion on the MOMK page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher#Split_apart_sections_of_the_article_into_Trial_of_Amanda_Knox_and_Raffaele_Sollecito. This section suggested the seperation of the Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito away from the MOMK article now that they have been acquitted. The discussion went on for a couple of weeks and the final vote was 20-8 in favor of the new article. It would have just pulled out all of the AK,RS trial info out of MOMK. There is no reason that their trial should be any more than a note with a link on the MOMK page. It has nothing to do with her murder and it has everything to do with the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. It is at this point its OWN event that should be seperated from MOMK. I do not understand how an admin can just ignore such a large concensus to have the Trial seperated from MOMK? Why did we even vote? What is the point of having a concensus if it is completely ignored. I do not want Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to be tied in wikipedia to a murder they had nothing to do with. This was discussed long before the acquittal even happened that if they were acquitted it would be best to make it a new article. The MOMK should concentrate on her murder. I would appreciate your response and hopefully your support in making a new article. Issymo ( talk) 23:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Heated debate
There are several attempts at the article discussion page and elsewhere to change the name of this article. It is, I think, quite unique in that that well-meaning editors in both England and Scotland who are usually very cooperative, have, in this case become quite contentious and unyielding in their views based on their individual countries' viewpoints.
There is no doubt that James VI was King of Scotland for many years before he became also King of England and united the two countries. Yet, the article title remains James I of England with no compromise as to even a "joint title". So far, attempts at compromise by the Scottish and other editors have gone completely unheard. The worst and most distressing thing is that claims and accusations of nationalism have come up against the Scots as well as similar accusations going the other way to the English and it has become ugly. Unless someone who is greatly respected weighs in; I think some good editors may leave Wiki.
One of the most provacative comments I heard was that, since King James had done much work for the English Queen before he took over, that his sympathies must have been with the English". Can you imagine a medieval Scot being sympathetic to the English over the Scots? It is absurd. I am not criticizing the individual editors as much as showing you where the obvious problem is, i.e., they cannot think "clearly" on this issue.
We need some other English speaking countries, and, I believe "The Big Gun" to weigh in on this. Unfortunately, the evidence, from an American point of view, is not being heard or completely ignored and a discussion is being quickly closed every time it is re-opened.
One of the places of the discussion is on the James I of England talk pages, but there are other sites, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/James_I_of_England/archive2 . Emotions are so high that I fear we will lose some well-meaning European editors if there is not some intervention. As stated and emphasized here, that intervention, in my viewpoint, must be made outside of the two countries involved and by someone commanding great respect. That, of course, would be you. Would you take some of your valuable time and look at this? Thank you either way. Mugginsx ( talk) 15:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Restating my points clearly - Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way and this is, IMNSHO, gaming the consensus-building process by refusing to accept a result that has been achieved time and time again (15 times, no?). This is the THIRD attempt in a MONTH! At this point, what concerns me is not who is right/wrong but the fact that certain editors are repeatedly
flogging a dead horse. Quite frankly, it's taking the piss.
The opening statement to Jimbo in this section beggars belief in its claims that evil English editors are repressing Scots and denying the "American viewpoint" (i.e. the opinions of a couple of American editors) and appealing for Jimbo to take a
WP:POV and force through a change which consensus has been opposed to time-and-time again! What is this if not a piss-take?
ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹
Speak 16:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I see someone has made an allegation that Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way, if I may respond to that allegation I do not consider it accurate or helpful. The reasons put forward for blocking the suggested move include:
Currently most modern texts refer to him as James VI and I, this was the suggested name but its been frustrated by arguments such as those above. Were we to go with the Scottish nationalist suggestion it would be James VI of Scotland but from the outset a compromise was offered. The fact that this keeps arising is because the article is is being held at a non-neutral name by arguments such as those above. The current title ignores other relevant viewpoints in the English language, is anachronistic and incongruous with modern scholarly references and utterly at odds with an encyclopedia professing to offer a WP:NPOV. I say your comments are unhelpful, because I could point out that "like-minded" individuals seem intent on keeping the article at an anachronistic title that doesn't reflect modern usage. In point of fact, they're an attack on the integrity of those arguing for change, who are genuinely seeking to improve the encyclopedia and it seems an attack designed to justify disregarding an opposing viewpoint. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I am increasingly uncomfortable with Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, because so many people interpret it as Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that anyone has the right to edit in any way they feel like. The result is that people come here, make edits that serve some goal they have, and then are angry when the edits are rejected. I suggest as an alternative Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that everyone can help write. It carries the same connotations of freedom and openness, but adds a connotation of cooperation in pursuit of a universal goal. Regards, Looie496 ( talk) 15:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
interesting discussion has now outlived its usefulness |
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I wish you could put a ban on diacritics usage, Jimbo. GoodDay ( talk) 15:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
So Miroslav Šatan would become Miroslav Satan? LOL. The foreign letters are crucial for pronunciation! José Mourinho or Goce Mourinho. The "chosay" pronunciation is made clear by the diacritic. Why does wiki -xenophobia spring to mind.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
... And the benefit of starting this discussion here again, after it has been rehashed a thousand times elsewhere, is exactly what? GoodDay, you know perfectly well that there is no consensus on this issue project-wide, the chances of this debate here achieving one is zero, and the idea implied in your initial posting that Jimbo could simply decide the issue by a decree from on high is, frankly, disgusting. So why is this discussion here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, could you please explain what precisely it is about Wikipedia that requires us to remove diacritics in the same way that wire news does because of technical restrictions and many newspapers do because it's too much hassle to restore the butchered diacritics to the wire news – as opposed to following the lead of scholarly publishers, Britannica, Encarta and, ahem, all of which go to great lengths to use diacritics correctly for all European languages? The only dropped diacritics (in titles) that I have seen in any of them were in Vietnamese and Pinyin names. Note that even the 1911 Britannica used diacritics consistently for European languages, even for Polish and Czech, which must have presented considerable difficulties. Apparently some of the Polish letters didn't exist in their typeface, so they had to stitch them together from unaccented letters and punctuation marks. It is simply a lie (for want of a more accurate word, given that editors such as Good Day, who keep repeating this canard even after being corrected numerous times) that diacritics in European names are unusual in English in the appropriate context, which is that of headings in English-language encyclopedias. In fact, so far nobody has given so much as a single example of a reputable general-purpose English encyclopedia that drops European diacritics in this context. The Chicago Manual of Style gives detailed advice about how to get diacritics right in foreign names and how to make sure that they are printed correctly. As far as I know it does not even mention the option of dropping them. For the closely related case of place names, an editor of the Chicago Manual recommends using the main spellings in Webster's Geographic Dictionary. This dictionary does not drop any diacritics. Where entries exist for place names with dropped diacritics, they say "see [place name with full diacritics]". (The one exception is "Zurich", which is a bona fide English spelling that just happens to look like the German spelling with ü replaced by u.) So it appears that your preference for dropping diacritics is just that, and that pushing it on Wikipedia would be very inappropriate. As are Good Day's appeals to you. Hans Adler 20:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
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Dear Jimmy Wales,
I am a bit surprised there is not an article on this, as it is quite an important website for young people (students). It's called MyMaths ( http://www.mymaths.co.uk), and it's quite a thing for students in the UK. So it's a bit odd Wikipedia has nothing on about it. Tell me what you think about this. Should there be an article or not? 90.206.245.199 ( talk) 12:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Master Jimbo. In due respect of the Mzoli's jurisprudence I would like to sollicitate your opinion on this Deletion review. I had viewed the original article about six months ago in Taiwan and found it back in a mirror version yesterday. I do not consider it OR and think it could be rescued. Thanks for your time. -- GrandPhilliesFan ( talk) 10:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE: We have finally exceeded 20 million articles (counting all other-language Wikipedias). Current live count: 63,132,322 articles (all-languages). The total is equivalent to a full encyclopedia for every day of the year, as 366 encyclopedias of about 22-volume size. The growth was accelerated by an unexpected 37,000 more articles in recent weeks.
To speed-read 20 million articles, non-stop, at 1 article per minute, 24/7 and 365.25 days per year, would require 38 years, assuming 1-minute fluency in all the 282(?) Wikipedia languages. Separately, English WP growth is still on track to reach 4 million articles in June 2012 (+930 per day).
How many printed volumes? Using the size-data which concluded the average article size as 562 words (in January 2010), the count of printed volumes (all languages) would be 8,189:
That equates to 366 sets of 22-volume encyclopedias (plus index), or 40.9 bookracks (each, 10 shelves of 20 volumes). So, year 2011 was the year Wikipedia size exceeded 1 traditional encyclopedia for every day of the year. - Wikid77 ( talk) 13:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Overall, I think the above picture conveys the idea of an overwhelming number of printed volumes, if the 20 million all-language articles were kept in library bookcases. Of course, the use of illustrations, animations, video files, and audio sound clips is not shown in the above picture. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I have just watched your short, but illuminating interview. I wished my windows had been rattled by the thrust of Saturn V rockets when I was a boy :-) Graham Colm ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, there, Mr. Wales, and I'm sorry to bother you, as I know you're a very busy man. One of the smaller articles in Wikipedia is one that I've hand-raised myself, much like the subject of the article, Kayavak, a beluga whale at Shedd Aquarium.. User:Qwyrxian suggests that 70% of the article needs to be rewritten, and that it may have to be significantly cut. I know you probably won't fret over such a small article. But please, look at it yourself, and tell me how it can be improved, if you may. Thank you, Mr. Wales, and good day. -- Beluga boy cup of tea? 12:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, these donation ads are getting tiring. Please out of respect to your members, consider removing these ads. These volunteers do enough work by writing these articles, then you ask them to write code for you like the coding event that was just held, you ask them for storytelling services. Please pay these people, rather than continuing to ask them of this. I know not all of the blame should be upon you as it should also respectively be upon the WMF, but you are the owner. Regardless, thank you for your service for the largest encyclopedia on the net. As it regards, 66.116.153.66 ( talk) 21:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Closing this discussion in the interests of harmony. Sarek's close was a good close, but I see no harm emerging from allowing the RfC to run a few more days. I think SV should take a break from this issue. |
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FYI. There was an RFC on a proposal that began on Oct 5 re WP:V. [24] The RFC had the participation of about a hundred editors. About 8 hours ago it was closed as successful by an administrator [25] and the changes were implemented in WP:V. Since then, the changes have been reverted. A couple of hours ago there began intense activity opposing the proposal, after this edit. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 00:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
IMHO, a splendid example of how things work all too often on Wikipedia -- for a rather different sort of take try reading WP:Ab initio showing an attempt to explain the reasoning behind policies, rather than counting angels on the heads of pins within policies <g>. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC) |
I agree that this was an embarrassing incident, but in the interests of harmony, let's just move onwards |
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After this notice got posted on WP:AN there was a flood of opposes in that WP:V RfC. That's quite interesting sociologically because a notice had been up for nearly month at WP:CENT, which is transcluded on WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 17:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
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hey, why you can see the Danish wiki when an article is good in English wiki, but in English wiki can not see if the Danish article is lovende articæe. Is there a reason why they? sorry my bad English. -- 80.161.143.239 ( talk) 15:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr Wales,
I was wondering if you would like to include WikiBates into part of the Wiki organisation. WikiBates is a debating part of the Wiki organisation, where once or twice a month you come up with a topic and allow to teams to battle it out to win that certain argument.
I believe this is a great idea and I have 2 people to back me up so far.
yours Sincerely, MYGAMEUPLAY ( talk) 12:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there a title for someone who is a master of WikiBates? David in DC ( talk) 23:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
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Sp33dyphil has given you some
caramel and a
candy apple! Caramel and candy-coated apples are fun
Halloween treats, and promote
WikiLove on Halloween. Hopefully these have made your Halloween (and the proceeding days) much sweeter. Happy Halloween!
If Trick-or-treaters come your way, add {{ subst:Halloween apples}} to their talkpage with a spoooooky message! |
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Treat or I'll tear this site down! Mwahahaha! :D -- Sp33dyphil © • © 05:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I notice the Dutch Wikipedia had a massive upload of articles, from 768,520 on 20 October 2011 (to over 850,281 now), quickly adding over 80,000 articles (perhaps 7,400 new pages per day, while enwiki gained 930/day). That is why the total of 20 million all-language articles was reached early. As more clever people, in various areas, continue to improve automated processes, the coverage of Wikipedia is growing in astounding ways. This really gives hope to machine-translated basic articles (for some languages), based on clever translation software. We know it has been theoretically possible, for years, and computer experts are coming to WP to help in many ways. The Dutch nlwiki was one of the first to use town-population tables to quickly update thousands of articles, for current population counts, and now enwiki is beginning to use similar tables: all German and Austrian towns automatically show current counts. Perhaps within a few years, almost all major town articles will automatically retrieve current-population counts, and enwiki will have relatively few town articles with out-dated populations. - Wikid77 ( talk) 14:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Found the culprit, Joopwikibot. If we used automation in an effective way with human editing on here to generate content we'd likely have 20 million articles in English in just a few years. Something which can put a foreign wikipedia article into english instantly with little proof reading perhaps. Perfect translation systems are the key I think, but ones like German have a long way to go yet. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
That's about one article for every 20 Dutch citizens. So, with 7 billion people on Earth, we should have 350 million articles. Count Iblis ( talk) 22:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
14,000 stubs on beetles♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek 23:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Look at the disconnect between what the citations say and what the article says. Look at the RS collection on TALK:Keith Raniere. If it weren't for negative press, he wouldn't have any. I cannot write the articles for whatever reason and want to resign completely from editing it, although I'd like to continue to maintain and improve the library of RS's on his discussion page. How do I recruit someone to do it right? I've tried everything. This is important! You want us to "get it right" with BLPs, and no one trusts me to do so, but if not me, who? Can't you ask someone to write it? With your pull, you could ask someone to author the articles properly and you might actually have success, unlike me. Chrisrus ( talk) 07:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
The first part of this was posted in Jan 2011. There are two additional sections, one from Nov 2010, one from Mar 2011, and a closing. Sorry about the formatting, (losing Bold and Paragraphs):
Should Wm5200 be blocked? Here is some background, edited for length and with some words bold for emphasis. Please check the originals for accuracy.
Posted under Talk: Death of Adolf Hitler--random questions--
Extended content
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I am not a scholar, I read Wiki but would not think of editing it. But I was disappointed in this article, and many points in the discussion, so I am asking some questions. Perhaps someone else will read and address them... 99.41.251.5 (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC) As to sources, the last books I have read are The Murder of Adolph Hitler by Hugh Thomas (sort of shaky) and The Last Days of Hitler by Anton Joachimsthaler (English translation, I buy much of this). As the article lead says... This said, this talk page isn't a forum for talking about personal views or questions on a topic, it's meant for talking about sources and how to echo them in the text. I say this because the article seems to already cover, with thorough citations, most if not all of what you've brought up. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC) I would like to direct people to the work of Ian Kershaw in general, and specifically to Hitler, 1939-1945: Nemesis ISBN 0393322521. Chapter 17 and the epilogue relate to this article. Please pay attention to his notes and sources. Be warned, his book Hitler: a Biography is a kind of digest which does not include these wonderful resources. In view of this information, and hopefully with the help of Gwen, I propose edits similar to the following...Reference others may include Trevor-Roper and Beevor. Wm5200 (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph...claims. Wm5200 (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Everything in that section is sourced and/or highly verifiable. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Have you read either Kershaw or Joachimsthaler? Wm5200 (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Why do you ask? Gwen Gale (talk) 14:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC) If I had read Kershaw's Nemesis Chapter 17 note 156 and Epilogue note 1 I wouldn't have wasted your time. You can't get much clearer than that. Should be required reading. Perhaps someone else should read them, and possibly edit the article. Thank you for your time.99.41.251.5 (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC) The source Joachimsthaler is basically an English translation of a German's analysis of 1950's post-Soviet interviews of bunker survivors. The original transcripts must be available somewhere. There are many other bunker interviews, some with questionable intent, and not all agree. Wm5200 (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC) I would like to direct people to the work of Ian Kershaw Hitler, 1939-1945: Nemesis ISBN 0393322521. Chapter 17 and the epilogue relate to this article. Please pay attention to his notes and sources. Be warned, his book Hitler: a Biography is a kind of digest which does not include these resources. In view of this information, I propose edits similar to the following:Wm5200 (talk) 14:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Posted on Talk:Wm5200--Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler-- Article talk pages are not meant as general forums or question boards about a topic. Moreover, they are not meant as outlets for your original thoughts on topics, even if you put those thoughts as questions. Please either start citing sources (along with thoughts about how to echo those sources in the text), or stop posting to Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler. If you would like to know more about how to deal with (and skirt) plagiarism worries on en.Wikipedia, you might have a look at Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) Is this the way you were welcomed to Wiki? Look at the talk page. Did Wm5200 bring up valid points? Did he attempt to reference them? Did he try to improve the article? It is now January 2011. Wm5200 has been permanently blocked for trying to introduce Sir Ian Kershaw to Gwen Gale. Gwen Gale has collected more stars. Kierzek and Farawayman fixed up the article some, but still no Kershaw acknowledgment by Gwen Gale. Is this how you think Wiki should work? Should Wm5200 be blocked from improving the article while Gwen Gale is rewarded for not assisting him? Or should Wm5200’s block be reconsidered? This is not about outing Gwen Gale, as some say. No one cares who Gwen Gale is. This is about holding her accountable for things she has said and done on Wikipedia and signed Gwen Gale to. Hiding behind those who have a real reason to hide is a bit hypocritical, don’t you think? Does this conflict have political overtones? Wm5200 says “Cabal” and “they” and is ridiculed. But Farawayman has been blocked, and others have been intimidated. Be careful.
That greyfalcon source is indeed trash. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Going "with scholarly books" (that are balanced and objective, as far as secondary sources/authors can be) has always been my aim on Wiki; and as to this article, specially; Farawayman, who has worked hard of late, herein, I am sure would agree. "Time" and other duties are something that keeps many of us from more Wiki editing/writing and cross-checking at a more expedient rate. So, present what you will for consensus; there is plenty of "time". Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I'm not offering [1] it as a source, Gwen. Only to demonstrate that a lot is floating out there. There's enough trash being passed off as sources in this article as it stands, without any more needing to be added. What the article especially needs to do is to bring forth that seventy years after the fact, the exact circumstances regarding the event remain uncertain and are contested. Naturally the scholarly "consensus" needs to be presented. The WP article on Hitler deals with the generalities regarding his death. This article needs to also deal with the subject's controversial nature. Not cigarette smoking. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC) My main worry here is that there is utterly zero, aught evidence, that Hitler or Braun were alive after the late afternoon of 30 April 1945, however they died and the lead should steadfastly echo this, one way or another. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, maybe I am missing something.... the lead currently says "Adolf Hitler committed suicide by gunshot on 30 April 1945 in his Führerbunker in Berlin..." Surely that "steadfastly echo's" death on the 30th April. Why is it necessary to pertinently state that he was dead by the afternoon? Farawayman (talk) 21:37, 11 November 2010 (UTC) For starters, the Russian autopsy bore overwhelming evidence he not only shot himself, but bit down on a cyanide capsule. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Slow down, one thing at a time!!!! Above, you insist the lead must "echo" that he was dead by the afternoon of the 30th. Explain? Farawayman (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Can you cite any meaningful sources that he was alive after that afternoon? Gwen Gale (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I removed the Beevor quoted cite; per points stated above; not needed, anyway. With that said, as for hearing the shot, yes, the two you mentioned are on record as having heard it, but Günsche and Linge are on record as NOT hearing anything; although Linge has changed his story on that point. In the famous "The World At War" T.V. series on DVD (originally from the 1970's), Linge stated he heard it; but in his book on page 199, he wrote: "I smelt the gas from a discharged firearm...Hitler had shot himself in the right temple with his 7.65-mm pistol..." As for the evidence of the "Russian autopsy", that bears close scrutiny through the published works. Kierzek (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC) WP:OR. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, I am not talking about "original research"; I am talking cross-checking and putting forth what the published reliable sources state; as I refer to above in my reply to Dr. Dan as to editing on Wiki and this article, in particular. Kierzek (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Whatever you may be talking about, I'm talking about your own original research. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I am NOT doing OR; I am editing an article to try and improve it; enough said. Kierzek (talk) 22:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC) So at the very least Gwen the circumstances shouldn't be "steadfastly echoed" as they currently are.correct?.70.28.7.229 (talk) 22:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Your rhetoric is lacking, IP. Please cite sources or stop now. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen...... The lead says he was dead by the 30th! No-one is disputing that! Who said he was alive after the late afternoon of the 30th? I recommend a good Brunello, I'm having one too! Set this aside, and lets move to a thorough copy edit of the first section. Farawayman (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC) All I'm saying is, I think the new lead is not on. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC) That's what I'm saying.Why the hostility?.70.28.7.229 (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, we had a grey, green, yellow, blue and dark blue (whatever) version of the lead in the above section! I agree its not perfect in terms of prose, but its factually correct! I concur, it needs polishing to make it read better, so why not give us your version - That's much more constructive. Farawayman (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
On 12 Mar 2011 , under the heading “When making large edits please be careful with citations: the following was posted: (OD) While I agree ... This was further complicated by certain editors constantly preventing information that they objected to being placed in the article, which IMO, somewhat bordered on violating the guideline concerning ownership of a Wikipedia article. Rejecting information that was sourced and then demanding "sources" for information that was objectionable to them. Thankfully things have calmed down a bit. ... Dr. Dan (talk) 23:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Closing. Using “Dr. Dan (talk) 23:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)” is not really fair, he does not name anyone. And neither he, Kierzek, or Farawayman have been contacted or informed of this post. Gwen, either. Unblocking the Wheelman is a moot point, he’s long gone. But we do not see where Gwen has ever apologized to Dr Dan, Kierzek, or Farawayman, either. She was clearly counterproductive to the article, but there has been no sign of accountability. This is hardly her first dispute. Does the average admin have this amount of conflict? |
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.172.55.115 ( talk) 01:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
99.172.55.115 A.K.A. Exwheelman5200 ( talk) 20:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
This may provide an interesting case study on why I think "verifiability, not truth" is a poisonous formulation. Here we had a fairly unimportant claim in an article that Justine Thornton attended Nottingham High School for Girls. The claim was not backed up by the source, but actually sources do exist to back it up. By normal standards, this would be considered legitimate to enter into Wikipedia.
But as it turns out, it isn't true. (She told me it isn't true.) There are no sources that I can find of her publicly denying it - it's a silly small error typical of tabloid newspapers, so I doubt if she ever made a big deal out of it.
If you accept the "verifiability, not truth" formulation, you are likely to think that unless we find a source debunking the claim, then merely knowing with some confidence that it is false is not good enough. I don't agree. I think that truth matters too much to be silly about it. Yes, verifiability is a good thing. It is not the only thing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Another view of the current system:
The issue is thus not whether "truth" is involved at all (I seem to recall that Wikipedia is founded on the premise that absolute truths are rare), but whether the mere existence of a verifiable source is any longer sufficient for a claim in a Wikipedia article when the claim itself is disputed. Frequently one or more editors will aver that one view is clearly fringe, and thus the other view (his) must be given greater weight, and the "fringe" view should be elided or nearly elided entirely. One obvious solution would be to have a set of absolutely neutral editors who would vet any contested claims. A less obvious one would be for Wikipedia to decide once and for all that opinions, allegations, surmises, accusations and the like do not belong in any encyclopedia which seeks to present facts to its readers. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 15:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
"Verifiability, not truth" means that we're relying on the fact-checking of reliable sources, rather than doing our own fact-checking. That approach only works if editors are committed to using sources that actually perform decent fact-checking. Personally, I'd rather see the language disappear, because it's surplanted "ignore all rules" as the most frequently misunderstood and most harmfully misapplied policy snippet on the site. "Verifiability, not truth" has the appeal of a pithy soundbite, but also the dangers - it grossly oversimplifies a complex issue, and provides ammunition for careless editing. MastCell Talk 16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
@Jimbo: This changes the very first sentence of a Wikipedia pillar, the very first thing people see when they're asked to read WP:V in content disputes. You might think that this is not a change of any magnitude, but clearly other editors see it differently. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 03:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
An example of V,not T in action
Here's an example of an editor claiming personal knowledge: Talk:Ryan_McDonald#Requested_move. How could we know this was not someone playing a surreal joke? We couldn't. So we didn't agree to the move. Were we wrong not to allow the move? I don't think so. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 04:49, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
On the other point, my neutrality on the proposal (which keeps verifiability, not truth) is down to the phrasing which I do not like. I can see the argument for not having the very first sentence as "verifiability, not truth", and think moving into the first section is a nice idea. But the proposal does not do what it's supposed to do. We don't show we care about accuracy by de-emphasising the ban on unsourceable content; we show it by explaining how we achieve accuracy on an open wiki - through the interaction of RS, V and NOR (and so how V fits in). I also do not like the way that "verifiability, not truth" is not the title and sole focus of the first section. A lot of editors find recourse to "verifiability, not truth" helpful. That first section is fuzzy and unclear, and is worse than what we have now. (I suggested all this in the discussions, but it didn't gain traction.) VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 07:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Interesting that the word "threshold" isn't brought up once in this entire section. 'Cause that's the key, and that's what it says. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 15:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
One can also say that in these examples Jimbo himself is a reliable source that the editors trust more than the sources. So, it is a matter of trust. And construed this way, this is something that happens quite frequently on Wikipedia. If some newspapers reports something about science, but they get it wrong, then usually the editors on that topic on Wikipedia are expert enough to see this and not include what the newspaer writes in the article. Of course, other policies can be invoked, such as WP:NOTNEWS, but what often really matters in such cases is the judgement by the editors that the news report is wrong. Also, if there is some discussion about this on the talk page, then less knowlegable editors will typically listen to what others have to say, even if that means overruling what reliable sources say.
Of course, such explanations are ultimately based on knowledge that exists in the scientific literature, but that's often not readily accessible to the less knowledgable editors. So, it then again boils down to the fact that the editors trust each other. You can't always give direct citations to verify something, because being able to read and understand the literature can require several years of study. An attempt at verification on the talk page via citations to the literature would degenerate into a university level course and thus be the mother of all WP:Synths. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Another set of examples of the damage VNT is doing can be found at List of unusual deaths. There are several highly suspect reports of unusual deaths, that border on the ridiculous or even the physically impossible. These reports were picked up by news services world wide, reprinted nearly verbatim as a "weird news" piece with pretty much no investigation by any of the journalists. c.f. Vladimir Likhonos, Jenny Mitchell (though more recent reports have debunked the ludicrous hair peroxide explosion theory). I have pleaded with the regulars on that page to exclude news items that are likely myths or that border on physical impossibility, but "verifiability, not truth" seems to trump editorial discretion in their eyes. Gigs ( talk) 15:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I think the example about Justine Thornton having attended Nottingham High School for Girls (or not) says much more about WP:SELFPUBLISH than about the "verifiability, not truth" slogan. The narrow requirements to use information from a self-publication, such as a blog entry, or even a Wikipedia user page or Wikipedia article talk page, creates a barrier to the removal of false information. Especially for the removal of false information, where the self-publisher is merely reporting an interview or correspondence with an unquestionable expert, it should suffice for the self-publisher's identity to be reliably established, and a reputation for writing honestly. I see no need for Jimbo to be a journalist or have published articles in reliable sources concerning Justine Thornton or Nottingham High School for Girls in order for his statements about his interview of Justine Thornton to be considered reliable. Jc3s5h ( talk) 22:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't usually come to this page too often, but happened to stop by today. I find this particular discussion to be very interesting. I admit, I haven't read through the whole thing, but plan to when I can find some spare time. This has always been one of my biggest contentions with Wikipedia. Although I think V-not-T is at the nexus of the problem, this is also coupled with a vague notion of what verifiability actually means. Redefining this term causes a chain-reaction, where other words must also be redefined to fit together within the context of Wikipedia. What should be straight-forward becomes rather confusing to the new-comer, until you begin to translate the subtle differences in the language used here.
I think Thompsma bring up some very good points, from what I've read so far. Defining truth has long been discussed. What does it really mean to be verifiable? Books like Scientific method discuss these topics at length. How much of what we know to be "reality" can truely be verified. Ultimately, something verifiable should be able to be observed with one's own senses. For example, if someone comes here to learn about tempering steel, they will likely want to verify, with their own eyes, that our information has given accurate results. (Which they won't, until I go through and correct the tempering article.) On the flip-side, how much of our reality can never be verified, because they are ideas or conclusions. As the afore-mentioned book says, science consists of collecting facts, applying ideas to facts, testing them against more facts, and redefining ideas to fit the facts as closely as possible.
Journalism, or, rather, journalistic style, really is not much different. Reporting the truth first consists of having a clear definition of what the so-called "truth" is. Does it consist of absolutes, does it consist of variables, or perhaps a combination of factors? I've written more about it on my talk page, but I try to stay away from forums like this. I just thought I'd leave a little comment here, because this struggle is nothing new. There are plenty of sources out there describing how other reliable sources achieve that status. My main advice would be to research, research, research, analyze and compare sources. I've never found it to be as simple as saying one type is always better than another, (ie:books over newspapers), but every bit of avaiable information should be cross-checked, compared, and scutinized, because reliability is a relative thing, (ie: an article on interior decorating may benefit more from a magazine on style rather than a book on carpentry.) Anyhow, that's just my two cents. Zaereth ( talk) 21:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Science is considered one of the highlights of human intellect and often considered one of the most reliable resources on natural truth. Science avoids the idol of certainty and establishing truth, by falsifying and contemplating probabilities, likelihoods and calculating theory. How does it achieve this and what relation does this have to Wikipedia? Science, like Wikipedia, is a collective enterprise, it is its own beast governed by its social contract that itself evolves, steady and punctuated over time.
The dimension of time X people is what seems to be missing in this debate on truth and verifiability. We have billions of people on this planet that can freely come to edit and fact check every article from now until the foreseeable future. I've often wondered what Wikipedia could look like in a thousand years. What news organization has that kind of power? We can do better than the "tabloid" news style articles and can compete against professional encyclopedia's. Why? We have time and people on our side. This is a human enterprise and people over time in pursuit of truth building on the good will of humanity to share our knowledge is a worthy investment. It is an amazing testament to what we can accomplish through so called "free-labour". Truth is a worthy pursuit and this engine called Wikipedia powered by people and time are up for the challenge. Thompsma ( talk) 01:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I side with amending "v not t", but I think the issue here may be more about a lack of clarity as to the issue of excluding material that is wrong. I don't think things are actually unclear if you apply common sense, but it also seems clear that you can't assume people will always do that.
To that end, I've done a little essay. I don't mind if editors think this is not the right approach and its only a draft, which I will agree reads a little officiously and spoonfeedy (but maybe that's what's called for). -- FormerIP ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well Mr. Wales, can't say I've enjoyed it, but at least it was free. Good luck with your encyclopedia... DS Belgium ( talk) 22:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Every so often, WP:OTRS gets complaints that Wikipedia is "distorting" the truth on this or the other, and the appropriate reply is that we represent "verifiability, not truth". I feel that our claim that we verify facts, but don't claim to present any one "truth" is a core value and should remain in focus. It's an essential reminder both for editors and readers. Asav | Talk 00:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
As the OTRS stuff seems to all take place behind closed doors, could you please comment if the above is an accurate representation of how stuff works there? (The above was written by an OTRS member, it seems.) Thanks, ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 01:48, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Quick summary - the husband of the subject objects that the article said she was fired when she resigned. There is one source that says this, and he says that it was a light hearted interview that simply got the facts wrong. Cue 3 months of battling, and an experienced editor coming out with crap like "The subject may state on the talk page what they believe is the "truth", but that cannot be accepted as reliable source for the article. Sources must be independently published. I restate, we aim for verifiability, not truth." In the end, some people with some sense turned up and managed to argue against it. However, that was 3 months of pointless battling for the subject's husband that simply shouldn't have happened. (I should point out that there were other things at play in the whole situation which have recently been uncovered but they are not particularly relevant to the WP:V discussion). Polequant ( talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I had supported the proposal, until I remembered a time I made an ass of myself fighting to include information that was easy to find in multiple reliable sources and yet turned out to be completely wrong. I'm headed to the RfC to change my !vote David in DC ( talk) 15:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have placed a statement here earlier, stating if there such thing as Wikipedia for Kids. I have looked at all of them and I think there should be a new one. None where kid-friendly. Gregory Heffley ( talk) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Oddly this is the third time I have come across a discussion on this topic recently, and found that nobody seems to be aware of the Wikipedia CD Selection, AKA Wikipedia for schools. No pop culture or porn articles, no gory or sexual images, and you can't vandalize it. I think it would be great if it were actually online. It could be left static, new versions of articles could be imported but it would not be editable by the general public, meaning it would require very little administration. However, so far nobody but me seems to like this idea and I don't have the server space or the technical know-how to do it myself. Beeblebrox ( talk) 23:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
How about it, Jimbo? How about getting the Wikipedia CD Selection online and linked to from the English Wikipedia? Is this something you would be willing to put on the Foundation's plate? Perhaps there are deal-killers here that we're not seeing? Herostratus ( talk) 03:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Jimbo and Jimbo page watchers. rev:100000 was just committed to MediaWiki subversion repository. Congratulations to everyone. -- Meno25 ( talk) 01:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
The page was deleted -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(Street_Meat) -- they came after it big big guns. I wish to go on record that this experience was personal, contentious and has had a stifling effect. Thank you Mig (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC) Mig ( talk) 14:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for a new Wikipedia. Tentatively call it WikiFinance. I am writing this to you as a finance professional who has spent over 20yrs in the industry, as a person passionate about technology and as a believer in the unfolding era of social collaboration transforming businesses & global economies.
Here is the case for a WikiFinance as a separate new project for WikiPedia:
The Global financial crisis (GFC) has shown that the current financial structure in unsustainable. Some of the key causes of the crisis a) improper credit rating as rating agencies were paid by the companies who sought rating i.e. moral hazard b) inability of select/limited staff of rating agencies to evaluate all the complexities involved in understand macro & micro factors driving risks. c) information arbitrage by investment banks and hedge funds like Goldman Sachs/Paulson (large team of analysts, close access to key information sources, etc) which allows them to make supernormal profits at the cost of small individuals.
Solution: Start WikiFinance as a collaborative effort by millions of people around the world to analyse, comment on and freely distribute intelligent information and analysis on companies and economies to everyone.
Observations: What the GFC has shown is that bloggers like nakedcapitalism.com or creditwritedowns.com have become more popular than traditional sources for informed analysis. There are millions of academicians, press and ordinary individuals who are posting their comments in multiple blogs/websites, but there is no true collaboration as there is no central place where they can collaborate to comment on the same issue.
Imagine if we had a central WikiFinance to analyse companies, take AIG for example. Imagine, Wiki had a WikiFinance page on AIG where every person who has interacted with AIG were allowed to post their comments. We would have go a) thousands of analysts and academia analyzing their financial statements jointly b) hundreds/thousands of people in the financial services industry could have been whistle blowers in pointing out how they were mispricing the options they were writing c) people could have vetted the CDO documents and pointed out all kinds of toxic assets injected into those and d) regulators could have tracked these and stopped them for blowing up the way they did much earlier.
Imagine: If Mr Bloomberg allows corporate financial statements into WikiFinance as a regular feed (anyway information is public) and all the people who deal with the company (suppliers, customers, bankers, analysts, neighbors, etc) are allowed to comment on a company in a central WikiFinance space - we could be reinventing the financial sector on a bottom up basis. Just create individual company pages, feed free data from Edgar/SEC/Bloomberg, allow analysts/academics to analyse the financial statements, allow customers to comment on their user experience, allow suppliers to comment on their experience with each company. We would have achieved full transparency and contributed to fixing the worlds broken financial sector.
The birth of new collaborative, democratic and a more fair financial sector is possible through WikiFinance. The opportunity, technology and need is very clear. The potential contribution to the world is also very clear. Is Wikipedia willing to enable/allow this change to happen?
What do you think? Thanks for reading so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NWITP ( talk • contribs) 08:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy, hope you're well. I'm wondering if you could help me out with something here - I've gone through the usual channels but have been stymied, so thought I might bump it right up the chain for your opinion.
I've had a username here on hold for all of the nine years I've been around. It was, in fact, the username I originally registered with, although I didn't use it, deciding instead to go with my real name. These days, it's the name I use everywhere online - I'm detaching from my real name for personal reasons - and I'd like my Wikipedia presence to be no exception to that. So, I requested in the usual place to get switched over. That was a year ago ( [3]); but at the time I was informed that somebody had registered on zh.wiki with the same name, so I wouldn't be able to get SUL unless they said it was okay. Over the course of the following year I tried several times to get in touch with them, but unsuccessfully.
I filed an updated request ( [4]), asking for an exception to be made because the Chinese user in question has only ever made 112 edits in three years ( [5]), none in months, and only ever to zh.wiki. My gut feeling as an admin is that it's extremely unlikely they'll ever need SUL or make cross-language edits. The 'crat I dealt with advised me to make a steward request, so I did ( [6]), but was given the brush-off - quite politely, but still so.
Basically I'd like to ask you if, given my long association with the project, I could be trusted enough to have the rules bent a very little for me, and if you could intercede on my behalf.
Many thanks for your time, whatever you decide. Best wishes, — Hex (❝?!❞) 11:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
File:R37-yo0365-Orden-dvoglavog-orla-s-macevima.png | The Serbian Barnstar of National Merit | |
You deserve it! | ||
This WikiAward was given to Jimbo Wales by WhiteWriter speaks on 19:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC) |
How exactly does Jimbo deserve the Serbian Barnstar of National Merit, I don't follow, or are we a little starstruck here? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, I have a confession to make. I purpously made an incorrect edit (in my view) in place of birth in George Washington article to illustrate a point and I feel bad now. However, the main problem is that I actually did nothing wrong, because incredibly, we dont have a principle written on this! So this creates a situation of having a general consensus among senior editors to use historical accuracy for place of birth, but editors editing against this consensus end up being allowed because people never made an effort to finish the discussion and writte a short note about this at WP:MOSBIO.
To me seems pretty obvious that Lenin was not born neither died in modern day Russia, but was born in Russian Empire and died in Soviet Union. Hitler obviously was not born in modern day Austria but in Austria-Hungary, just as George Washington, the article I vandalised in my view, was obviously not born in the United States but in Colony of Virginia.
However, all this is relative because we don´t have a rule on this, so people can actually use current states for place of birth, even if they didn´t existed at time of birth, something completely illogical. For exemple, how can a person be born in, for exemple, in a country called Eritrea in 1980 if the country only gained independence in 1991?
I just noteced my edit was reverted (thanks God! I couldn´t stand my own crime) with the edit summary of "unsourced". But here is the problem: sourcing a place of birth for well known historical figures is easy, as there are easily available scholarly sources saying precisely the historically accurate place of birth. But what about sportspeople, less known modern artists, etc.? They often use sources which are not specialised in history and geography, and may vary for exemple in using Soviet Union or current-day states for footballers for exemple. It was with sportspeople that this time the problem started. Within the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football there is a general consensus to use historically accurate names of cities and countries at time of birth of a person, and many editors made a huge effort in fighting (what we called) vandalism of numerous IP´s and nationalistically motivated editors to replace former countries by the new ones. This war was specially active in past 3 to 5 years, however nowadays the Yugoslavia´s, Soviet Union´s, Zaire´s, etc. had finally seemed to become accepted and suffer less reverting recetly. However this time a group of Estonian editors had started questioning all agreed and saying that current states are the ones to be used. Now, the problem is that we are basically tighed-up about this, because we lack written principle defending historical accuracy, and because sources may easily say one or onother, depending on their seriousness about that specific issue, as most are not specialised in place of birth. So basically, they remove a precise place of birth of the person when born, and replace it by the current state, and we cannot do nothing about it as we lack principle on this.
I do understand that there were discussions in the past over this issue and nothing was agreed, however seems incredible that the situation continues like this. Many dedicated editors have lost much time around this issue. I also supose that often the past discussions were not successfull because many users were uninformed about them, so now there is a chance at least to finish the discussion. I really beleave we could easily apply the historical accuracy for place of birth, by this meaning to use the city and country that existed at time the person was born, and also, most important excyclopedia´s treat the issue that was as well. If not, we don´t apply what I stand for, but my only wish is to have a principle on this to solve this frequently problematic issue.
I know this sounds like a desperate call for attention, but it is just unbeleavable that we still lack a principle or note on this and the situation has become a bit intolerable. The current discussion is taking place here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Country_of_birth.2C_for_historic_.28and_current.29_bios.2C_part_II. Best regards, FkpCascais ( talk) 03:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, my sons call me Timbo!
Just a couple of thoughts, and you can reach out to me if you want to follow up.
My specialty is pricing, and at its core is the concept of "Managing the Value Exchange". The concept is that your sales force and customers must be forced to acknowledge and pay for value delivery. That's why public radio interrupts programming and does not resume until their goals are met. The truth is we all want everything for free as long as we can get it. Gatting paid starts by saying "no". One option you should consider is taking the site down and asking people for money. If they contribute they get immediate access. If not, they need to wait for two days. There are probably other options, but no time to think of them now.
Good luck,love your service.
75.171.244.204 ( talk) 15:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I want to ask you why you think that it would be a good idea.-- Müdigkeit ( talk) 18:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Why isn't Wikipedia encrypted?Because,there are lots of fake Wikipedia websites on the net.Please look over this issue if you can.I,myself,detected a phishing Wikipedia website claiming it is the original,and encouraging people to log-in on their website.Nearly 45% of Wikipedia accounts are compromised every year for these fake websites.If you can,can you please reply on my talk page? Dipankan001 ( talk) 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Are these edits appropriate [7] [8] [9] [10]? This editor is removing information sources to reliable sources and claiming "unnecessary gossip". Surely its relevant to mention that somebody was with somebody for 4 years? Would you fail to mention Bennifer in the Ben Affleck and J-Lo articles for instance?I mean the Ben Affleck article mentions relationships he had for just 2 years and says things like "Despite a wedding planned for September 14, the couple broke up in 2004, both blaming the media attention - including an alleged incident in which Affleck partied with Christian Slater and some lap dancers in Vancouver." It is a Good Article and if anything that is far more "gossipy" than the articles he's removing stuff from every day. I think its very relevant to mention long term relationships if covered in multiple reliable sources. Its different if it is a brief fling. Any thoughts because this editor removes information from every actor article even if well-sourced and encyclopedic.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I think Hullaballoo should be commended for convincing so many former contributors to go elsewhere to add actual information to projects. Some of my own experiences with Mr. Wolfowitz' trademark article-stalking and edit-warring can be glimpsed in such edits as [15], [16], and [17]-- in which he repeatedly mass-removed neutral, sourced descriptions of videos, claiming they described the subject's life-- or [18] in which he repeatedly edit-warred out a sourced claim that he simply didn't like (an "adult" performer known for her breasts). Behavior such as this from Wikipedia's most-admired Admins and editors (as opposed to hard-working contributors) convinced me that I had a choice to make: 1) Play the "Wikipedia game" or 2) go somewhere else to work on contributing sourced information-- which was my reason for coming here in the first place. Thank you again for showing me how admired game-players are, and how despised contributors are here, Mr. Wolfowitz. Dekkappai ( talk) 23:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Relevant to a mature understanding of this topic is Kayfabe - a term from the world of professional wrestling, but which applies in a wider context. Individual cases require thoughtful judgment, but one thing we should be clear on: not everything in tabloids is true. A fair amount of it is staged PR fluff. Another portion of it is simply bad reporting that the stars don't complain about because it is harmless. There are often good reasons to take it all with a grain of salt.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 17:15, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Following up on your comment at Talk:Touré#Request for respectful delay and the previous discussion on your talk page, has there been any progress on this issue? TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, I'm bringing to your attention this recent discussion on the MOMK page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher#Split_apart_sections_of_the_article_into_Trial_of_Amanda_Knox_and_Raffaele_Sollecito. This section suggested the seperation of the Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito away from the MOMK article now that they have been acquitted. The discussion went on for a couple of weeks and the final vote was 20-8 in favor of the new article. It would have just pulled out all of the AK,RS trial info out of MOMK. There is no reason that their trial should be any more than a note with a link on the MOMK page. It has nothing to do with her murder and it has everything to do with the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. It is at this point its OWN event that should be seperated from MOMK. I do not understand how an admin can just ignore such a large concensus to have the Trial seperated from MOMK? Why did we even vote? What is the point of having a concensus if it is completely ignored. I do not want Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to be tied in wikipedia to a murder they had nothing to do with. This was discussed long before the acquittal even happened that if they were acquitted it would be best to make it a new article. The MOMK should concentrate on her murder. I would appreciate your response and hopefully your support in making a new article. Issymo ( talk) 23:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Heated debate
There are several attempts at the article discussion page and elsewhere to change the name of this article. It is, I think, quite unique in that that well-meaning editors in both England and Scotland who are usually very cooperative, have, in this case become quite contentious and unyielding in their views based on their individual countries' viewpoints.
There is no doubt that James VI was King of Scotland for many years before he became also King of England and united the two countries. Yet, the article title remains James I of England with no compromise as to even a "joint title". So far, attempts at compromise by the Scottish and other editors have gone completely unheard. The worst and most distressing thing is that claims and accusations of nationalism have come up against the Scots as well as similar accusations going the other way to the English and it has become ugly. Unless someone who is greatly respected weighs in; I think some good editors may leave Wiki.
One of the most provacative comments I heard was that, since King James had done much work for the English Queen before he took over, that his sympathies must have been with the English". Can you imagine a medieval Scot being sympathetic to the English over the Scots? It is absurd. I am not criticizing the individual editors as much as showing you where the obvious problem is, i.e., they cannot think "clearly" on this issue.
We need some other English speaking countries, and, I believe "The Big Gun" to weigh in on this. Unfortunately, the evidence, from an American point of view, is not being heard or completely ignored and a discussion is being quickly closed every time it is re-opened.
One of the places of the discussion is on the James I of England talk pages, but there are other sites, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/James_I_of_England/archive2 . Emotions are so high that I fear we will lose some well-meaning European editors if there is not some intervention. As stated and emphasized here, that intervention, in my viewpoint, must be made outside of the two countries involved and by someone commanding great respect. That, of course, would be you. Would you take some of your valuable time and look at this? Thank you either way. Mugginsx ( talk) 15:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Restating my points clearly - Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way and this is, IMNSHO, gaming the consensus-building process by refusing to accept a result that has been achieved time and time again (15 times, no?). This is the THIRD attempt in a MONTH! At this point, what concerns me is not who is right/wrong but the fact that certain editors are repeatedly
flogging a dead horse. Quite frankly, it's taking the piss.
The opening statement to Jimbo in this section beggars belief in its claims that evil English editors are repressing Scots and denying the "American viewpoint" (i.e. the opinions of a couple of American editors) and appealing for Jimbo to take a
WP:POV and force through a change which consensus has been opposed to time-and-time again! What is this if not a piss-take?
ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹
Speak 16:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I see someone has made an allegation that Like-minded individuals seem intent on reopening the debate until they get their own way, if I may respond to that allegation I do not consider it accurate or helpful. The reasons put forward for blocking the suggested move include:
Currently most modern texts refer to him as James VI and I, this was the suggested name but its been frustrated by arguments such as those above. Were we to go with the Scottish nationalist suggestion it would be James VI of Scotland but from the outset a compromise was offered. The fact that this keeps arising is because the article is is being held at a non-neutral name by arguments such as those above. The current title ignores other relevant viewpoints in the English language, is anachronistic and incongruous with modern scholarly references and utterly at odds with an encyclopedia professing to offer a WP:NPOV. I say your comments are unhelpful, because I could point out that "like-minded" individuals seem intent on keeping the article at an anachronistic title that doesn't reflect modern usage. In point of fact, they're an attack on the integrity of those arguing for change, who are genuinely seeking to improve the encyclopedia and it seems an attack designed to justify disregarding an opposing viewpoint. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I am increasingly uncomfortable with Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, because so many people interpret it as Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that anyone has the right to edit in any way they feel like. The result is that people come here, make edits that serve some goal they have, and then are angry when the edits are rejected. I suggest as an alternative Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that everyone can help write. It carries the same connotations of freedom and openness, but adds a connotation of cooperation in pursuit of a universal goal. Regards, Looie496 ( talk) 15:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
interesting discussion has now outlived its usefulness |
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I wish you could put a ban on diacritics usage, Jimbo. GoodDay ( talk) 15:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
So Miroslav Šatan would become Miroslav Satan? LOL. The foreign letters are crucial for pronunciation! José Mourinho or Goce Mourinho. The "chosay" pronunciation is made clear by the diacritic. Why does wiki -xenophobia spring to mind.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
... And the benefit of starting this discussion here again, after it has been rehashed a thousand times elsewhere, is exactly what? GoodDay, you know perfectly well that there is no consensus on this issue project-wide, the chances of this debate here achieving one is zero, and the idea implied in your initial posting that Jimbo could simply decide the issue by a decree from on high is, frankly, disgusting. So why is this discussion here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Jimbo, could you please explain what precisely it is about Wikipedia that requires us to remove diacritics in the same way that wire news does because of technical restrictions and many newspapers do because it's too much hassle to restore the butchered diacritics to the wire news – as opposed to following the lead of scholarly publishers, Britannica, Encarta and, ahem, all of which go to great lengths to use diacritics correctly for all European languages? The only dropped diacritics (in titles) that I have seen in any of them were in Vietnamese and Pinyin names. Note that even the 1911 Britannica used diacritics consistently for European languages, even for Polish and Czech, which must have presented considerable difficulties. Apparently some of the Polish letters didn't exist in their typeface, so they had to stitch them together from unaccented letters and punctuation marks. It is simply a lie (for want of a more accurate word, given that editors such as Good Day, who keep repeating this canard even after being corrected numerous times) that diacritics in European names are unusual in English in the appropriate context, which is that of headings in English-language encyclopedias. In fact, so far nobody has given so much as a single example of a reputable general-purpose English encyclopedia that drops European diacritics in this context. The Chicago Manual of Style gives detailed advice about how to get diacritics right in foreign names and how to make sure that they are printed correctly. As far as I know it does not even mention the option of dropping them. For the closely related case of place names, an editor of the Chicago Manual recommends using the main spellings in Webster's Geographic Dictionary. This dictionary does not drop any diacritics. Where entries exist for place names with dropped diacritics, they say "see [place name with full diacritics]". (The one exception is "Zurich", which is a bona fide English spelling that just happens to look like the German spelling with ü replaced by u.) So it appears that your preference for dropping diacritics is just that, and that pushing it on Wikipedia would be very inappropriate. As are Good Day's appeals to you. Hans Adler 20:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
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Dear Jimmy Wales,
I am a bit surprised there is not an article on this, as it is quite an important website for young people (students). It's called MyMaths ( http://www.mymaths.co.uk), and it's quite a thing for students in the UK. So it's a bit odd Wikipedia has nothing on about it. Tell me what you think about this. Should there be an article or not? 90.206.245.199 ( talk) 12:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Master Jimbo. In due respect of the Mzoli's jurisprudence I would like to sollicitate your opinion on this Deletion review. I had viewed the original article about six months ago in Taiwan and found it back in a mirror version yesterday. I do not consider it OR and think it could be rescued. Thanks for your time. -- GrandPhilliesFan ( talk) 10:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE: We have finally exceeded 20 million articles (counting all other-language Wikipedias). Current live count: 63,132,322 articles (all-languages). The total is equivalent to a full encyclopedia for every day of the year, as 366 encyclopedias of about 22-volume size. The growth was accelerated by an unexpected 37,000 more articles in recent weeks.
To speed-read 20 million articles, non-stop, at 1 article per minute, 24/7 and 365.25 days per year, would require 38 years, assuming 1-minute fluency in all the 282(?) Wikipedia languages. Separately, English WP growth is still on track to reach 4 million articles in June 2012 (+930 per day).
How many printed volumes? Using the size-data which concluded the average article size as 562 words (in January 2010), the count of printed volumes (all languages) would be 8,189:
That equates to 366 sets of 22-volume encyclopedias (plus index), or 40.9 bookracks (each, 10 shelves of 20 volumes). So, year 2011 was the year Wikipedia size exceeded 1 traditional encyclopedia for every day of the year. - Wikid77 ( talk) 13:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Overall, I think the above picture conveys the idea of an overwhelming number of printed volumes, if the 20 million all-language articles were kept in library bookcases. Of course, the use of illustrations, animations, video files, and audio sound clips is not shown in the above picture. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I have just watched your short, but illuminating interview. I wished my windows had been rattled by the thrust of Saturn V rockets when I was a boy :-) Graham Colm ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, there, Mr. Wales, and I'm sorry to bother you, as I know you're a very busy man. One of the smaller articles in Wikipedia is one that I've hand-raised myself, much like the subject of the article, Kayavak, a beluga whale at Shedd Aquarium.. User:Qwyrxian suggests that 70% of the article needs to be rewritten, and that it may have to be significantly cut. I know you probably won't fret over such a small article. But please, look at it yourself, and tell me how it can be improved, if you may. Thank you, Mr. Wales, and good day. -- Beluga boy cup of tea? 12:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, these donation ads are getting tiring. Please out of respect to your members, consider removing these ads. These volunteers do enough work by writing these articles, then you ask them to write code for you like the coding event that was just held, you ask them for storytelling services. Please pay these people, rather than continuing to ask them of this. I know not all of the blame should be upon you as it should also respectively be upon the WMF, but you are the owner. Regardless, thank you for your service for the largest encyclopedia on the net. As it regards, 66.116.153.66 ( talk) 21:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Closing this discussion in the interests of harmony. Sarek's close was a good close, but I see no harm emerging from allowing the RfC to run a few more days. I think SV should take a break from this issue. |
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FYI. There was an RFC on a proposal that began on Oct 5 re WP:V. [24] The RFC had the participation of about a hundred editors. About 8 hours ago it was closed as successful by an administrator [25] and the changes were implemented in WP:V. Since then, the changes have been reverted. A couple of hours ago there began intense activity opposing the proposal, after this edit. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 00:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
IMHO, a splendid example of how things work all too often on Wikipedia -- for a rather different sort of take try reading WP:Ab initio showing an attempt to explain the reasoning behind policies, rather than counting angels on the heads of pins within policies <g>. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC) |
I agree that this was an embarrassing incident, but in the interests of harmony, let's just move onwards |
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After this notice got posted on WP:AN there was a flood of opposes in that WP:V RfC. That's quite interesting sociologically because a notice had been up for nearly month at WP:CENT, which is transcluded on WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 17:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
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hey, why you can see the Danish wiki when an article is good in English wiki, but in English wiki can not see if the Danish article is lovende articæe. Is there a reason why they? sorry my bad English. -- 80.161.143.239 ( talk) 15:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr Wales,
I was wondering if you would like to include WikiBates into part of the Wiki organisation. WikiBates is a debating part of the Wiki organisation, where once or twice a month you come up with a topic and allow to teams to battle it out to win that certain argument.
I believe this is a great idea and I have 2 people to back me up so far.
yours Sincerely, MYGAMEUPLAY ( talk) 12:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there a title for someone who is a master of WikiBates? David in DC ( talk) 23:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
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Sp33dyphil has given you some
caramel and a
candy apple! Caramel and candy-coated apples are fun
Halloween treats, and promote
WikiLove on Halloween. Hopefully these have made your Halloween (and the proceeding days) much sweeter. Happy Halloween!
If Trick-or-treaters come your way, add {{ subst:Halloween apples}} to their talkpage with a spoooooky message! |
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Treat or I'll tear this site down! Mwahahaha! :D -- Sp33dyphil © • © 05:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I notice the Dutch Wikipedia had a massive upload of articles, from 768,520 on 20 October 2011 (to over 850,281 now), quickly adding over 80,000 articles (perhaps 7,400 new pages per day, while enwiki gained 930/day). That is why the total of 20 million all-language articles was reached early. As more clever people, in various areas, continue to improve automated processes, the coverage of Wikipedia is growing in astounding ways. This really gives hope to machine-translated basic articles (for some languages), based on clever translation software. We know it has been theoretically possible, for years, and computer experts are coming to WP to help in many ways. The Dutch nlwiki was one of the first to use town-population tables to quickly update thousands of articles, for current population counts, and now enwiki is beginning to use similar tables: all German and Austrian towns automatically show current counts. Perhaps within a few years, almost all major town articles will automatically retrieve current-population counts, and enwiki will have relatively few town articles with out-dated populations. - Wikid77 ( talk) 14:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Found the culprit, Joopwikibot. If we used automation in an effective way with human editing on here to generate content we'd likely have 20 million articles in English in just a few years. Something which can put a foreign wikipedia article into english instantly with little proof reading perhaps. Perfect translation systems are the key I think, but ones like German have a long way to go yet. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
That's about one article for every 20 Dutch citizens. So, with 7 billion people on Earth, we should have 350 million articles. Count Iblis ( talk) 22:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
14,000 stubs on beetles♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek 23:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Look at the disconnect between what the citations say and what the article says. Look at the RS collection on TALK:Keith Raniere. If it weren't for negative press, he wouldn't have any. I cannot write the articles for whatever reason and want to resign completely from editing it, although I'd like to continue to maintain and improve the library of RS's on his discussion page. How do I recruit someone to do it right? I've tried everything. This is important! You want us to "get it right" with BLPs, and no one trusts me to do so, but if not me, who? Can't you ask someone to write it? With your pull, you could ask someone to author the articles properly and you might actually have success, unlike me. Chrisrus ( talk) 07:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
The first part of this was posted in Jan 2011. There are two additional sections, one from Nov 2010, one from Mar 2011, and a closing. Sorry about the formatting, (losing Bold and Paragraphs):
Should Wm5200 be blocked? Here is some background, edited for length and with some words bold for emphasis. Please check the originals for accuracy.
Posted under Talk: Death of Adolf Hitler--random questions--
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I am not a scholar, I read Wiki but would not think of editing it. But I was disappointed in this article, and many points in the discussion, so I am asking some questions. Perhaps someone else will read and address them... 99.41.251.5 (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC) As to sources, the last books I have read are The Murder of Adolph Hitler by Hugh Thomas (sort of shaky) and The Last Days of Hitler by Anton Joachimsthaler (English translation, I buy much of this). As the article lead says... This said, this talk page isn't a forum for talking about personal views or questions on a topic, it's meant for talking about sources and how to echo them in the text. I say this because the article seems to already cover, with thorough citations, most if not all of what you've brought up. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC) I would like to direct people to the work of Ian Kershaw in general, and specifically to Hitler, 1939-1945: Nemesis ISBN 0393322521. Chapter 17 and the epilogue relate to this article. Please pay attention to his notes and sources. Be warned, his book Hitler: a Biography is a kind of digest which does not include these wonderful resources. In view of this information, and hopefully with the help of Gwen, I propose edits similar to the following...Reference others may include Trevor-Roper and Beevor. Wm5200 (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph...claims. Wm5200 (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Everything in that section is sourced and/or highly verifiable. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Have you read either Kershaw or Joachimsthaler? Wm5200 (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Why do you ask? Gwen Gale (talk) 14:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC) If I had read Kershaw's Nemesis Chapter 17 note 156 and Epilogue note 1 I wouldn't have wasted your time. You can't get much clearer than that. Should be required reading. Perhaps someone else should read them, and possibly edit the article. Thank you for your time.99.41.251.5 (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC) The source Joachimsthaler is basically an English translation of a German's analysis of 1950's post-Soviet interviews of bunker survivors. The original transcripts must be available somewhere. There are many other bunker interviews, some with questionable intent, and not all agree. Wm5200 (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC) I would like to direct people to the work of Ian Kershaw Hitler, 1939-1945: Nemesis ISBN 0393322521. Chapter 17 and the epilogue relate to this article. Please pay attention to his notes and sources. Be warned, his book Hitler: a Biography is a kind of digest which does not include these resources. In view of this information, I propose edits similar to the following:Wm5200 (talk) 14:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Posted on Talk:Wm5200--Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler-- Article talk pages are not meant as general forums or question boards about a topic. Moreover, they are not meant as outlets for your original thoughts on topics, even if you put those thoughts as questions. Please either start citing sources (along with thoughts about how to echo those sources in the text), or stop posting to Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler. If you would like to know more about how to deal with (and skirt) plagiarism worries on en.Wikipedia, you might have a look at Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) Is this the way you were welcomed to Wiki? Look at the talk page. Did Wm5200 bring up valid points? Did he attempt to reference them? Did he try to improve the article? It is now January 2011. Wm5200 has been permanently blocked for trying to introduce Sir Ian Kershaw to Gwen Gale. Gwen Gale has collected more stars. Kierzek and Farawayman fixed up the article some, but still no Kershaw acknowledgment by Gwen Gale. Is this how you think Wiki should work? Should Wm5200 be blocked from improving the article while Gwen Gale is rewarded for not assisting him? Or should Wm5200’s block be reconsidered? This is not about outing Gwen Gale, as some say. No one cares who Gwen Gale is. This is about holding her accountable for things she has said and done on Wikipedia and signed Gwen Gale to. Hiding behind those who have a real reason to hide is a bit hypocritical, don’t you think? Does this conflict have political overtones? Wm5200 says “Cabal” and “they” and is ridiculed. But Farawayman has been blocked, and others have been intimidated. Be careful.
That greyfalcon source is indeed trash. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Going "with scholarly books" (that are balanced and objective, as far as secondary sources/authors can be) has always been my aim on Wiki; and as to this article, specially; Farawayman, who has worked hard of late, herein, I am sure would agree. "Time" and other duties are something that keeps many of us from more Wiki editing/writing and cross-checking at a more expedient rate. So, present what you will for consensus; there is plenty of "time". Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I'm not offering [1] it as a source, Gwen. Only to demonstrate that a lot is floating out there. There's enough trash being passed off as sources in this article as it stands, without any more needing to be added. What the article especially needs to do is to bring forth that seventy years after the fact, the exact circumstances regarding the event remain uncertain and are contested. Naturally the scholarly "consensus" needs to be presented. The WP article on Hitler deals with the generalities regarding his death. This article needs to also deal with the subject's controversial nature. Not cigarette smoking. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC) My main worry here is that there is utterly zero, aught evidence, that Hitler or Braun were alive after the late afternoon of 30 April 1945, however they died and the lead should steadfastly echo this, one way or another. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, maybe I am missing something.... the lead currently says "Adolf Hitler committed suicide by gunshot on 30 April 1945 in his Führerbunker in Berlin..." Surely that "steadfastly echo's" death on the 30th April. Why is it necessary to pertinently state that he was dead by the afternoon? Farawayman (talk) 21:37, 11 November 2010 (UTC) For starters, the Russian autopsy bore overwhelming evidence he not only shot himself, but bit down on a cyanide capsule. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Slow down, one thing at a time!!!! Above, you insist the lead must "echo" that he was dead by the afternoon of the 30th. Explain? Farawayman (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Can you cite any meaningful sources that he was alive after that afternoon? Gwen Gale (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I removed the Beevor quoted cite; per points stated above; not needed, anyway. With that said, as for hearing the shot, yes, the two you mentioned are on record as having heard it, but Günsche and Linge are on record as NOT hearing anything; although Linge has changed his story on that point. In the famous "The World At War" T.V. series on DVD (originally from the 1970's), Linge stated he heard it; but in his book on page 199, he wrote: "I smelt the gas from a discharged firearm...Hitler had shot himself in the right temple with his 7.65-mm pistol..." As for the evidence of the "Russian autopsy", that bears close scrutiny through the published works. Kierzek (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC) WP:OR. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, I am not talking about "original research"; I am talking cross-checking and putting forth what the published reliable sources state; as I refer to above in my reply to Dr. Dan as to editing on Wiki and this article, in particular. Kierzek (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Whatever you may be talking about, I'm talking about your own original research. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC) I am NOT doing OR; I am editing an article to try and improve it; enough said. Kierzek (talk) 22:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC) So at the very least Gwen the circumstances shouldn't be "steadfastly echoed" as they currently are.correct?.70.28.7.229 (talk) 22:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Your rhetoric is lacking, IP. Please cite sources or stop now. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen...... The lead says he was dead by the 30th! No-one is disputing that! Who said he was alive after the late afternoon of the 30th? I recommend a good Brunello, I'm having one too! Set this aside, and lets move to a thorough copy edit of the first section. Farawayman (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC) All I'm saying is, I think the new lead is not on. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC) That's what I'm saying.Why the hostility?.70.28.7.229 (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Gwen, we had a grey, green, yellow, blue and dark blue (whatever) version of the lead in the above section! I agree its not perfect in terms of prose, but its factually correct! I concur, it needs polishing to make it read better, so why not give us your version - That's much more constructive. Farawayman (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
On 12 Mar 2011 , under the heading “When making large edits please be careful with citations: the following was posted: (OD) While I agree ... This was further complicated by certain editors constantly preventing information that they objected to being placed in the article, which IMO, somewhat bordered on violating the guideline concerning ownership of a Wikipedia article. Rejecting information that was sourced and then demanding "sources" for information that was objectionable to them. Thankfully things have calmed down a bit. ... Dr. Dan (talk) 23:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Closing. Using “Dr. Dan (talk) 23:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)” is not really fair, he does not name anyone. And neither he, Kierzek, or Farawayman have been contacted or informed of this post. Gwen, either. Unblocking the Wheelman is a moot point, he’s long gone. But we do not see where Gwen has ever apologized to Dr Dan, Kierzek, or Farawayman, either. She was clearly counterproductive to the article, but there has been no sign of accountability. This is hardly her first dispute. Does the average admin have this amount of conflict? |
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.172.55.115 ( talk) 01:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
99.172.55.115 A.K.A. Exwheelman5200 ( talk) 20:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
This may provide an interesting case study on why I think "verifiability, not truth" is a poisonous formulation. Here we had a fairly unimportant claim in an article that Justine Thornton attended Nottingham High School for Girls. The claim was not backed up by the source, but actually sources do exist to back it up. By normal standards, this would be considered legitimate to enter into Wikipedia.
But as it turns out, it isn't true. (She told me it isn't true.) There are no sources that I can find of her publicly denying it - it's a silly small error typical of tabloid newspapers, so I doubt if she ever made a big deal out of it.
If you accept the "verifiability, not truth" formulation, you are likely to think that unless we find a source debunking the claim, then merely knowing with some confidence that it is false is not good enough. I don't agree. I think that truth matters too much to be silly about it. Yes, verifiability is a good thing. It is not the only thing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Another view of the current system:
The issue is thus not whether "truth" is involved at all (I seem to recall that Wikipedia is founded on the premise that absolute truths are rare), but whether the mere existence of a verifiable source is any longer sufficient for a claim in a Wikipedia article when the claim itself is disputed. Frequently one or more editors will aver that one view is clearly fringe, and thus the other view (his) must be given greater weight, and the "fringe" view should be elided or nearly elided entirely. One obvious solution would be to have a set of absolutely neutral editors who would vet any contested claims. A less obvious one would be for Wikipedia to decide once and for all that opinions, allegations, surmises, accusations and the like do not belong in any encyclopedia which seeks to present facts to its readers. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 15:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
"Verifiability, not truth" means that we're relying on the fact-checking of reliable sources, rather than doing our own fact-checking. That approach only works if editors are committed to using sources that actually perform decent fact-checking. Personally, I'd rather see the language disappear, because it's surplanted "ignore all rules" as the most frequently misunderstood and most harmfully misapplied policy snippet on the site. "Verifiability, not truth" has the appeal of a pithy soundbite, but also the dangers - it grossly oversimplifies a complex issue, and provides ammunition for careless editing. MastCell Talk 16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
@Jimbo: This changes the very first sentence of a Wikipedia pillar, the very first thing people see when they're asked to read WP:V in content disputes. You might think that this is not a change of any magnitude, but clearly other editors see it differently. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 03:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
An example of V,not T in action
Here's an example of an editor claiming personal knowledge: Talk:Ryan_McDonald#Requested_move. How could we know this was not someone playing a surreal joke? We couldn't. So we didn't agree to the move. Were we wrong not to allow the move? I don't think so. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 04:49, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
On the other point, my neutrality on the proposal (which keeps verifiability, not truth) is down to the phrasing which I do not like. I can see the argument for not having the very first sentence as "verifiability, not truth", and think moving into the first section is a nice idea. But the proposal does not do what it's supposed to do. We don't show we care about accuracy by de-emphasising the ban on unsourceable content; we show it by explaining how we achieve accuracy on an open wiki - through the interaction of RS, V and NOR (and so how V fits in). I also do not like the way that "verifiability, not truth" is not the title and sole focus of the first section. A lot of editors find recourse to "verifiability, not truth" helpful. That first section is fuzzy and unclear, and is worse than what we have now. (I suggested all this in the discussions, but it didn't gain traction.) VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 07:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Interesting that the word "threshold" isn't brought up once in this entire section. 'Cause that's the key, and that's what it says. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 15:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
One can also say that in these examples Jimbo himself is a reliable source that the editors trust more than the sources. So, it is a matter of trust. And construed this way, this is something that happens quite frequently on Wikipedia. If some newspapers reports something about science, but they get it wrong, then usually the editors on that topic on Wikipedia are expert enough to see this and not include what the newspaer writes in the article. Of course, other policies can be invoked, such as WP:NOTNEWS, but what often really matters in such cases is the judgement by the editors that the news report is wrong. Also, if there is some discussion about this on the talk page, then less knowlegable editors will typically listen to what others have to say, even if that means overruling what reliable sources say.
Of course, such explanations are ultimately based on knowledge that exists in the scientific literature, but that's often not readily accessible to the less knowledgable editors. So, it then again boils down to the fact that the editors trust each other. You can't always give direct citations to verify something, because being able to read and understand the literature can require several years of study. An attempt at verification on the talk page via citations to the literature would degenerate into a university level course and thus be the mother of all WP:Synths. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Another set of examples of the damage VNT is doing can be found at List of unusual deaths. There are several highly suspect reports of unusual deaths, that border on the ridiculous or even the physically impossible. These reports were picked up by news services world wide, reprinted nearly verbatim as a "weird news" piece with pretty much no investigation by any of the journalists. c.f. Vladimir Likhonos, Jenny Mitchell (though more recent reports have debunked the ludicrous hair peroxide explosion theory). I have pleaded with the regulars on that page to exclude news items that are likely myths or that border on physical impossibility, but "verifiability, not truth" seems to trump editorial discretion in their eyes. Gigs ( talk) 15:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I think the example about Justine Thornton having attended Nottingham High School for Girls (or not) says much more about WP:SELFPUBLISH than about the "verifiability, not truth" slogan. The narrow requirements to use information from a self-publication, such as a blog entry, or even a Wikipedia user page or Wikipedia article talk page, creates a barrier to the removal of false information. Especially for the removal of false information, where the self-publisher is merely reporting an interview or correspondence with an unquestionable expert, it should suffice for the self-publisher's identity to be reliably established, and a reputation for writing honestly. I see no need for Jimbo to be a journalist or have published articles in reliable sources concerning Justine Thornton or Nottingham High School for Girls in order for his statements about his interview of Justine Thornton to be considered reliable. Jc3s5h ( talk) 22:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't usually come to this page too often, but happened to stop by today. I find this particular discussion to be very interesting. I admit, I haven't read through the whole thing, but plan to when I can find some spare time. This has always been one of my biggest contentions with Wikipedia. Although I think V-not-T is at the nexus of the problem, this is also coupled with a vague notion of what verifiability actually means. Redefining this term causes a chain-reaction, where other words must also be redefined to fit together within the context of Wikipedia. What should be straight-forward becomes rather confusing to the new-comer, until you begin to translate the subtle differences in the language used here.
I think Thompsma bring up some very good points, from what I've read so far. Defining truth has long been discussed. What does it really mean to be verifiable? Books like Scientific method discuss these topics at length. How much of what we know to be "reality" can truely be verified. Ultimately, something verifiable should be able to be observed with one's own senses. For example, if someone comes here to learn about tempering steel, they will likely want to verify, with their own eyes, that our information has given accurate results. (Which they won't, until I go through and correct the tempering article.) On the flip-side, how much of our reality can never be verified, because they are ideas or conclusions. As the afore-mentioned book says, science consists of collecting facts, applying ideas to facts, testing them against more facts, and redefining ideas to fit the facts as closely as possible.
Journalism, or, rather, journalistic style, really is not much different. Reporting the truth first consists of having a clear definition of what the so-called "truth" is. Does it consist of absolutes, does it consist of variables, or perhaps a combination of factors? I've written more about it on my talk page, but I try to stay away from forums like this. I just thought I'd leave a little comment here, because this struggle is nothing new. There are plenty of sources out there describing how other reliable sources achieve that status. My main advice would be to research, research, research, analyze and compare sources. I've never found it to be as simple as saying one type is always better than another, (ie:books over newspapers), but every bit of avaiable information should be cross-checked, compared, and scutinized, because reliability is a relative thing, (ie: an article on interior decorating may benefit more from a magazine on style rather than a book on carpentry.) Anyhow, that's just my two cents. Zaereth ( talk) 21:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Science is considered one of the highlights of human intellect and often considered one of the most reliable resources on natural truth. Science avoids the idol of certainty and establishing truth, by falsifying and contemplating probabilities, likelihoods and calculating theory. How does it achieve this and what relation does this have to Wikipedia? Science, like Wikipedia, is a collective enterprise, it is its own beast governed by its social contract that itself evolves, steady and punctuated over time.
The dimension of time X people is what seems to be missing in this debate on truth and verifiability. We have billions of people on this planet that can freely come to edit and fact check every article from now until the foreseeable future. I've often wondered what Wikipedia could look like in a thousand years. What news organization has that kind of power? We can do better than the "tabloid" news style articles and can compete against professional encyclopedia's. Why? We have time and people on our side. This is a human enterprise and people over time in pursuit of truth building on the good will of humanity to share our knowledge is a worthy investment. It is an amazing testament to what we can accomplish through so called "free-labour". Truth is a worthy pursuit and this engine called Wikipedia powered by people and time are up for the challenge. Thompsma ( talk) 01:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I side with amending "v not t", but I think the issue here may be more about a lack of clarity as to the issue of excluding material that is wrong. I don't think things are actually unclear if you apply common sense, but it also seems clear that you can't assume people will always do that.
To that end, I've done a little essay. I don't mind if editors think this is not the right approach and its only a draft, which I will agree reads a little officiously and spoonfeedy (but maybe that's what's called for). -- FormerIP ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well Mr. Wales, can't say I've enjoyed it, but at least it was free. Good luck with your encyclopedia... DS Belgium ( talk) 22:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Every so often, WP:OTRS gets complaints that Wikipedia is "distorting" the truth on this or the other, and the appropriate reply is that we represent "verifiability, not truth". I feel that our claim that we verify facts, but don't claim to present any one "truth" is a core value and should remain in focus. It's an essential reminder both for editors and readers. Asav | Talk 00:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
As the OTRS stuff seems to all take place behind closed doors, could you please comment if the above is an accurate representation of how stuff works there? (The above was written by an OTRS member, it seems.) Thanks, ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 01:48, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Quick summary - the husband of the subject objects that the article said she was fired when she resigned. There is one source that says this, and he says that it was a light hearted interview that simply got the facts wrong. Cue 3 months of battling, and an experienced editor coming out with crap like "The subject may state on the talk page what they believe is the "truth", but that cannot be accepted as reliable source for the article. Sources must be independently published. I restate, we aim for verifiability, not truth." In the end, some people with some sense turned up and managed to argue against it. However, that was 3 months of pointless battling for the subject's husband that simply shouldn't have happened. (I should point out that there were other things at play in the whole situation which have recently been uncovered but they are not particularly relevant to the WP:V discussion). Polequant ( talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I had supported the proposal, until I remembered a time I made an ass of myself fighting to include information that was easy to find in multiple reliable sources and yet turned out to be completely wrong. I'm headed to the RfC to change my !vote David in DC ( talk) 15:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)