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Hello. Just wanted to notify you and everybody else who monitors this page that AOL ip addresses have been indefinitely blocked. I've used them to edit for 2 years. It would be nice to have edit privileges restored. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Which IPs? You need to post the unblock template on the talk page of the IP involved. There are 4 billion IP addresses and we are not good guessers. Thatcher 04:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC) There is no "I.P involved". She said she is using AOL (as are 4 million other people). That means her I.P. address changes every time she signs on to the internet - and that is every day since dial-up users also have to have their open when they are not online.Rayvn (talk) 03:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what's wrong with people, blocking all these IPs *solely* because they are public (I.P edits are anonymous anyway - right? If abuse happens, I.P. can be blocked and appealed later if necessary.) But, I think when an I.P. is blocked for being public a user should still be able to create an account, etc. Some users don't have their own computers - or may have simply forgotten a password. I.P. is irrelevant in password recovery because the password still goes to a personal e-mail address.Rayvn (talk) 19:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC) Public IPs that are abused by vandals to create accounts and to vandalize will be blocked until the vandal gets bored and goes away. Thatcher 04:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC) I didn't say anything about vandals. I said, "But, I think when an I.P. is blocked for being public a user should still be able to create an account, etc." If an I.P. is blocked for being public, that means no abuse ever happened. What you statement should have said was, "Public IPs that are abused by vandals to create accounts and to vandalize will be blocked until the vandal gets bored and goes away." Because in that case it does not matter if the I.P. is public or not that it's blocked, it only matters that the notice mentioned that the I.P. is public. An I.P. should not, however, be blocked until this happens, should not be blocked from creating new accounts unless the vandal has tried to create a new account from the same I.P. at least once, and password recovery should never be blocked because a SPAMmer cannot abuse that. What I am saying is that an I.P. should not be blocked until it is abused (and then removed after say 90 days or upon request from another user if more then say 10 days have passed and the user does not seem to be the SPAMmer), because doing anything else serves no purpose other then to annoy Wikipedians and prevent contributions from being made by many people (think of a college for example - there's probably at least 50,000 Wikipedians using those computers). In addition you should make sure never to block an OL (or other dial-up) I.P., unless the SPAMmer is still logged onto Wikipedia when you do it in which case the block can auto-expire in 24 hours, because the next time that SPAMmer uses the computer, his I.P. will be a different one.Rayvn (talk) 03:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. This was resolved over a month ago. To my knowledge there is no reason to repost my comment. The ip that was blocked was the one I signed the post with. Please, let's not clog up Jimmy's page. Have a nice day. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Exactly how is an issue "resolved" if I haven't responded to an issue that I myself posted about? In case you haven't noticed, this is Wikipedia, meaning that nothing is ever resolved unless/until every person who reads it does not feel the need to comment. Also, anything "clogging up" Jimbo's page is his own decision, when he choose to archive everything he also created the need for any discussion to be reposted each time a new comment is added. That is beyond my control. Rayvn ( talk) 20:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering here, but seeing as you are the almighty-final say in everything power on wikipedia, what do you think of something like this where the guy gets piled on for the answer to a question, opposed for being a wrestling fan, and told off for not answering an optional qustion about his age evn though the oft agreed lower limit is 12? (I was 13 when I first had an RFA and noone pulled me up for it (I phailed anyway)) PXK T /C 19:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Jim, First, please check out the history of the Henotheism page.
You are perhaps already more aware than I am that there are abusive users on Wikipedia. There is no doubt about it. What is sad is that even admins abuse their special privileges regularly without any "checks and balances". All this just to go with "consensus" instead of basing decisions on "verifiable" facts. This is violation of the very mandate of what admins are for and waste of time for good faith editors. In the long run, this will keep poor contributors in and sway away good faith editors. While I was a target of abusive editing practices by others, I was blocked by User:YellowMonkey from arbitration (as a punishment for my notifying an abusive admin to arb)!!! All this instead of User:YellowMonkey issuing some sort of warning to an abusive admin User:Dougweller or asking him to refrain from abusive practices in the future. The disputed content was discussed at Talk:Aditya. Anyway, while watching the history of the Henotheism page today (as it is I'm blocked), I noticed that another person User:ADvaitaFan also seems to have run into the same issue i.e. continued forced edit reversals even after that good faith editor added links so others can verify the corrections he (or she) had made. The edit reversal again in this case done by admin User:Dougweller~! Doug's last rv note says "it is clear there is no consensus for this edit" and nothing about "verifiability" of facts discussed on the Talk: Henotheism page. All this goes totally against Wikipedia Wikipedia:Verifiability guidelines. I am wondering why Wikipedia would make such people as admins! Even long-timers like User:Dbachmann also seem to playing the edit reversal game just to go with the flow of whatever the admin likes. With the current approach, this great project is bound to fail, especially if nothing changes. The content will most certainly not be high grade if "consensus" instead of "verifiability" is used as the yardstick. The smart people of Wikipedia need to figure out and fix this "bandit ring game" for good. What's really disturbing is even long-timers dabble in mindlessly just to look good within the circle of favor (especially to admins), and admins can't seem to separate wheat from shaff, while also ruthlessly pushing their own POV!!! This again goes totally against the Wikipedia:NPOV principle. At minimum, a neutral hidden committee (arbitration not comprising of admins) should monitor all admins and keep score of their actions secretly. Wikipedia needs to look closely at their stats and seriously at rules on admin monitoring. If admins themselves engage in Wikipedia:Edit_warring, this goes totally against the very foundation of building a great encyclopedia. Better still if admin monitoring can be done programatically instead of this current affinity-based approach. Where we are today, further degradation of content and even more POV content is almost guaranteed. I'd love to hear back from you if Wikipedia is already working along these lines or what your planned next steps are. Be well. VedicScience ( talk) 09:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to begin a discussion as found here: [ [1]][ [2]] Could you please start the discussion off since I'having a problem with the link. Please and thank you. Researcher123456789 ( talk) 13:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
When I write my soap opera, may I use this website, Facebook and other search engines as references for My Beloved Girlfriend? Ericthebrainiac ( talk) 17:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Make sure you check out the sources first then; you never know...
Wikisaver62 (
talk)
10:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I reccomend you do not let any random people edit your user page, an invitation like that is difficult to come by and some malicious people would ruin the page to get a kick out of it. No offense, but you really are too trusting. Wikisaver62 ( talk) 10:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, in an earlier thread at this talk page in a discussion about notability you said The Simpson's anomaly is probably my own personal fault, because way back in the day before I really understood the limitations of the medium, I said something like "We should have an article on every episode of The Simpson's, why not?" Whereas now, if I were voting, I would vote to delete. I am curious to hear your response to Durova's subsequent query - which of those articles would you "vote to delete" ? Cirt ( talk) 07:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, so you'd seriously delete articles that the community has decided to feature? Now I don't call myself an inclusionist, but there are five volunteers who worked very hard for many months to earn a spot here. I look at this thread and shake my head; to them your post has got to be a punch in the gut. Durova Charge! 07:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
What has changed since your original proclamation to make you reconsider? The cynical side of me says it's the for profit Wikia you launched which would love said articles and their traffic... but I hope it's wrong. the wub "?!" 00:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
This relates to commons:Image:Anal Creampie.JPG, recently placed on MediaWiki:Bad image list after being used for vandalism. A couple years back, you deleted Image:Creampiesex.jpg, used in Creampie (sexual act), with the edit summary "Image would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements." (It appears that the image and log has since been oversighted, but I wrote down the incident at Wikipedia:Pornography#Jimbo Wales on obscenity.) Given how similar the images are, I wonder if you could clarify whether your previous deletion was a one-off and the stance of the higher ups have changed in the meantime, if you reserve summary deletion of these types of images for yourself, if admins have authority to do out of process deletion for these types of images as well, or if you wish this image to go through normal deletion discussions? Thanks, Banyan Tree 01:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
All images which would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements should be deleted on sight, and the uploader blocked for simple vandalism. If anything has changed about my stance on this in recent years, it is a significantly lower tolerance for trolling us. I do not think it is out-of-process to delete such stuff on sight, and if it is, then the process needs to be changed to make sure it happens.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Having had time now to review the particular case, it seems clear to me that the user in question was trolling.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Above Jimbo says: "These kinds of images have zero encyclopedic value." Wikimedia Commons is a media file repository making available public domain and freely-licensed educational media content (images, sound and video clips) to all. It is not limited to images with encyclopedic value. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Welcome. See http://libres.curtin.edu.au/LIBRE11N2/crook.htm for what erotic media that professional librarians consider appropriate for public libraries. I do not believe Jimbo is a professional librarian nor does he sometimes appear to understand that Wikia is not "the rest of the library"; the rest of WikiMedia is. But perhaps he does realize this and his comment was merely a regrettable error. We all make mistakes. With Jimbo's high visibility and people's constant efforts to have him tell them what to do, his off the cuff remarks sometimes carry more weight than they should. I guess this is just a case of an off the cuff remark, sensibly ignored. WAS 4.250 ( talk) 13:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
There has been a lot of discussion concerning the use of ip's on Wikipedia. The amount of vandalism by ip's must take up 90% of the reverts that good editors have to deal with. The question I ask is, is there somewhere the community can discuss this, will it make a difference discussing it, and if there is a majority of editors who agree that everyone should create an account can it be implemented? Jack forbes ( talk) 01:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia Administrator, I tried to move Srebrenica Massacre article to Srebrenica Genocide. However, I got automatically generated message that the name already exist. True, it does exist, but the main article is located at Srebrenica Massacre page, and I wanted it to appear at Srebrenica Genocide. The system message said that administrator can do it. As you know, Srebrenica genocide was not merely a massacre. It was a genocide. This was confirmed by the highest UN Courts, namely the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at the Hague and the International Court of Justice, known as the World Court. Dear Administrator, would you please be so kind to move the page to Srebrenica Genocide, so the content and discussion page appears at Srebrenica Genocide location? Please respond, and thank you. Bosniak ( talk) 06:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
So you met Stephen Fry a while ago? Did you know who he was or did you Google him?! The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There are two well known parodies to Wikipedia: Uncylopedia and Dramitca. My question is how to they get the MediaWiki engine? And, why if you type [[Uncyclopedia:the name of an article on Uncyclopedia]], the link works? Does it have to do with their use of the MediaWiki engine? Or is this something the developers did that they thought would be funny? -- Ipatrol ( talk) 14:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo - I had a question. Do you kick yourself for not having figured a way to make billions from Wikipedia like those Google Guys? I mean, did you just kind of sleep-walk into giving it away as the project took on a life of its own and became the standard-bearer almost for this whole community-orientated Web 2.0 movement? I mean, you would have been slated probably more than any other man on the Internet (perhaps the world!) if you had commercialised it once the horse had bolted right? I'm sure you're a wealthy man but think about (literally) the Billions you could have made if you had....in fact to sum up this question - do you ever think about those lost Billions Jimbo?
Thanks for your time. I'm honestly interested from a psychological standpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.28.127 ( talk) 00:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm extremely proud of Wikipedia as it is, and wouldn't change a thing. This is historic. -- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
You have made a very good website, but please don't allow random IPs to edit. Registration should be mandatory. 59.95.114.118 ( talk) 07:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I think that is the same guy ( 59.95.114.118) who posted message in my talk page? -- Googlean Results 07:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Both Googlean and the IP have a history of sockpuppeting. YellowMonkey ( click here to choose Australia's next top model) 05:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you personally think this is a good article, Jimbo Wales? It is a candidate for Good Article class and has been put "on hold" by it's reviewer. Do you think it is fit for that class now? -The Bold Guy- ( talk) 16:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much mr. Wales. I'll see what happens, if you say it is good enough I am pretty sure it must be. I'll just take a look at the sourcing. -The Bold Guy- ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello. In face of my recent efforts as translating articles from other wikipedias, currently Tenerife I would really find it useful if wikipedia had some programme for translating articles between wikipedias such as this. To be able to translate whole articles like google translation would be of enormous benefit, particularly if it is of a high quality and doesn't have too many mistranslations like some of the other translation engines. Google translation appears to be the best on the web but you can't transfer whole pages from it with having to sort out each sentence. Also it offers a wider translation of languages which would be of major use translating articles in real need of expansion from other wikipedias from parts of the world like Sweden, Norway, Japan, Vietnam etc. Given that you regularly state the desire for the world to have equal and free access to knowledge in their native language seemigly some sort of wiki-inter translation would probably serve other language wikipedias with evne more benefit than it would have for us if they in turn could translate some of our articles into English. I really think investing in a translation service which is the most accurate and successful on the web would enchance the wiki service and I know that many would find it of enormous benefit. If an article is enchanced using such a programme, then it could produce a tag which indicates it has been translated using that tool and needs proof reading for accuracy. If we had such a programme, the other wikipedias would develop at a greater rate and we also would see a far greater flow of knowledge of if we had the ability within the wiki site to transfer information. Our thousands of stubs on places in France, Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland for starters could be de stubbed within hours. Just think how other wikipedias could benefit, if Indonesian wikipedia for instance was permitted to transfer the whole Ming dynasty article into their native language.
I remember watching one of your videos which features people in the Arabic world emphasising how much they benefit from access to knowledge and the problems with finding information in their own language. For instance see this. If within the framework of the wiki software you gave people the chance to translate an article like Ulysses S. Grant into Arabic for example as here this would be a huge step towards sharing knowledge. Don't you think? Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 16:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, I notice growing user page vandalism in your page by anons and newly reg’d users. Why aren’t you or any admins protecting it? -- Googlean Results 04:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
hi, i have an account in wikipedia in spanish, i'm blocked 2 years ago (july 2006), i don't entry more in wikipedia from 2 years ago, i want now have that account. can you do something? sorry for my english, thank you ciao —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.7.156 ( talk) 22:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo...I was looking over the admin noticeboard and came across discussion of the "keep" rationale in this AfD: [8]. What is your opinion on the comment made by the closing admin that "While yes, his article violates the BLP policy, there is no deadline and exception can be made"? That seems contrary to the way I understand WP:BLP, but then again I -am- a n00b admin and there's a good chance I'm being overly rigid here. Thanks for your input...nice place you've got here. Gladys J Cortez 00:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Wales. I recently came across Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ginger Jolie. She is a former "Penthouse Pet" who is trying to get her article removed and get on with her life. The general tone of the AfD discussion is against deletion. To me the whole thing seems kind of ugly and I think it has the possibility of turning into a problem for WP's public image. Especially when the issue, and Ms Jolie's notability, are so minor. Steve Dufour ( talk) 07:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I have just been watching a show on BBC 2 Television in the UK, "Stephen Fry in America" - great to finally see you "in real life" as it were. A wonderful interview. I will be speaking to the BBC and seeing if they would be kind enough to release a little copy of that for us to put up somewhere. It would be good for all the non-UK wikipedians who wouldn't necessarily have seen that show. Great job! Thor Malmjursson ( talk) 19:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Mmm not the first time Wales has been slated by wikipedia and Mr. "Wales" himself. How ironic. Wasn't it Jimbo who tactfully implied that Welsh wikipedia was pointless or unnecessary? Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 21:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jim, can you semi-protect Rugrats for me. The reason I ask is because for saftey reasons. Thanks, -- P.S. I Rock Wikipedia! ( talk) 20:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)DJ WikiBob
Hey Jimbo.
I saw you come by the election preparation page, and I was sorta hoping you'd chime in on the current discussion about requiring nominees to identify before the vote. I set out my reasoning in favor, and the proposal has support, but isn't unanimous and I'd like to see where you stand on the matter. It is very much a (Wikipedian) philosophical question, and your own opinion on the matter is likely to be influential. — Coren (talk) 22:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I was planning on CfD'ing this category, but the notice at the top says "This category is for administrative purposes, per Jimbo Wales. Do not nominate it for CfD; see Talk page for more details". I understand the rationale behind your two year old "keep" comment, and am all for enforcing BLP quite strictly, but my reasoning is this; we have Category:Living people, with 310,836 articles, with the sole purpose of making enforcement of BLP easier. We also have Category:Biography articles of living people, with 252,252 articles, also with the sole purpose of enforcing BLP. Since the second category is placed on the talk page of articles, we could remove the first one from the article page, since this category is intended for editors, not for readers (a cat with 300,000 articles is useless for readers). Do you agree that, since there are two massive categories for the same purpose, a discussion on removing one of them can now be had without endangering BLP? Fram ( talk) 12:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Please have someone reach out to these instructors. Better you or a Foundation member of staff than some random Wikipedia administrator, I think. Uncle G ( talk) 12:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Ello, Jimbo! Pleasure to talk with you! I seem to, rather inadvertantly, be getting into an edit war with an anonymous user (an IP). (S)he continues to delete factual information, and is claiming that it is false... I have warned him/her to stop his/her reverts, but (s)he will not stop... should I block him/her for vandalizing? The article is Tevin Campbell ([ history]). Here is his/her talk page, where I have warned him/her to stop. If you could follow with me on this on my talk page, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Mr. Old-Skool ( talk) 22:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo, can I interview you? -- 64.136.76.132 ( talk) 01:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
In reference to what you said here [9], why hasn't an overall governance committee or process ever been established for en.Wikipedia? You know, something like a configuration control board, to direct technical improvements, manage policy maintenance and changes, and implementing and supervising a process for making final decisions on content disputes? The fact that the "community" hasn't been able to get together to get flagged revisions implemented shows that we need some kind of elected governance willing and able to make some decisions for the rest of us. Cla68 ( talk) 23:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a bureacracy. It is neither politics, nor an adminstration in which politicians rule over others. Most people rightly have a freedom to edit where most people function as equals and have equal rights to discuss the best course of action by consensus as the "community" involves everyone rather than a panel of judges to do things in discretion. This is partly what wikipedia is about. Now some people may delude themselves that they become rulers by accepting adminship but the principal has always been clear from day one right? If there is a "higher power" of judges so to speak it makes general consensus highly inferior. Given the scope of wikipedia it is inevitable that disputes will arise on a daily basis as so many different people will have contrasting views on articles or policies. However much crap goes on at ANI and petty squabbles that some of us see from time to time, we have got where we have so far so something must be working if the overall result is what we have today compared to January 2001. Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 01:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to commend you on creating this great website. Wikipedia is a great resource. The fact that anyone can edit is a blessing, but, sadly, also a curse. I hope to aid you and other positive editors as much as possible in combating vandalism.
Good hunting, ~RaveRaiser blessed this place with his holy gaze~ 01:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RaveRaiser ( talk • contribs)
Dear Jimmy Wales,
This is just to share a thought that I think essential.
While going through different Transnational Qualification Framework movements to write an article in Wikipedia, I thought it would be ideal if such efforts could be coordinated to a global level to achieve real Transnational Qualifications Framework. Then the educational institutions and educators all over the world will be able to collaborate effectively in the process of providing quality education to all.
I have added the article with mimimum details, I will be strengthening the article with more information shortly. Please make TQF issue live in discussions, if you think it appropriate.
Warm regards Anil ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me how to make a user sub-page? Can any user make one, or just admin? Mr. Old-Skool ( talk) 22:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm talking to JIMBO WALES???? 1!!!!1oneone!!111 77.97.224.20 ( talk) 11:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ? Thanks ARP Apovolot ( talk) 22:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I've made a proposal to clarify the policy here. Since you have previously expressed your opinion on the suitability of Joe the plumber as an encyclopedic topic, this is a notification for your input on the proposed policy clarification. VG ☎ 11:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
It sounds like a move in the right direction. The one thing I would caution against is using US law as the guideline, if this would give people the idea that BLP only means "not breaking US law". Our BLP can be and should be much stricter than libel law - my view of what constitutes a good biography goes far beyond simply "not libeling someone". At the same time, I think that the law does contain a great deal of well-thought-out distinctions that we can use to inform our understanding, and I believe that introducing into our rules a notion of "limited public figure" will prove to be useful and helpful for the reasons you have outlined.
I am not contradicting (not intentionally anyway) what Mike Godwin said, but I'm concerned that it might be misinterpreted. I think he's saying that "Statement A is libel in the US, but not libel in country Z, so we can say it in Wikipedia" is something the Foundation would oppose. I don't think the Foundation has any objections (at least I hope not!) to us adopting a much higher standard than "it is legal in the US" for our editorial judgments about what is appopriate within Wikipedia. We might choose, and with good reason, to obey not only US libel law but also UK libel law. We might also choose, and with good reason, to ignore some aspects of non-US law insofar as they would interfere with our encyclopedic, humanitarian, NPOV mission. And all that is within the realm of our community editorial judgment.
I should add: I read over the proposal and the discussion of it only briefly; I am not taking sides on any of the discussions underway there. I'm just handwaving to generally say, this looks like a sensible possibility.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 23:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimmy, what is the proper way to write articles on works of satire and parody in which the cultural references they make are so obvious, but at the same time, not sourced, specifically when writing episodes of South Park? While some interpretation is subjective, and should be removed, other bits are so obvious that to not make mention of them would be ignoring the intent of the creators of the work. Specifically, there is an edit conflict on the Pandemic (South Park) article over this material. The parodies of Cloverfield and The Blair Witch Project in the episode are OBVIOUS. Do we really need a cite to establish what is clearly intended by the creators? How are we supposed to write about satire/parody when creators of such works generally do not explicitly tell us "Oh, here's where we were satirizing that movie...", and "Over here is where we were parodying that TV show...." Moreover, User:Alastairward keeps removing the Cloverfield references, even though that is referenced. Please advise. Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 16:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a strong opinion about this, other than to say that I personally think there's a ton of inappropriate original research in articles of that type, and that I'm not personally inclined to get involved at all.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 23:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So then what are those of us disagreeing over it supposed to do? Nightscream ( talk) 01:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been recently dealing with some newbies who insert personal analysis and/or point-of-view info about a certain actor or actress, like in Sarah Geronimo. I know that fanboyism is prevalent in Philippine cinema and popular culture, and some newbies are unwittingly taking their obsession with them when they edit an article. You said that there are a lot of inappropriate original research and unnecessary trivia about such stuff, but I have a somewhat hard time dealing with such situations, especially with those die-hard fans. What do you think about this? God Bless and have a nice day... Blake Gripling ( talk) 01:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a policing function in which breaches in policy are investigated and prosecuted; or primarily having a dispute resolution function where interpersonal disputes are investigated and appropriate remedies applied? Martintg ( talk) 02:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a dispute resolution function. However, I think that the ArbCom can and should take whatever actions are wise to ensure the smooth functioning of Wikipedia. As a trusted group of users with deep experience, I think they can and should sometimes take on some investigative roles and enforcement roles.
In my experience, when people ask questions like yours, they are usually not so much asking about the general philosophical or constitutional question, but rather expressing a concern about a specific case. Did you have something in mind?-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jimmy I have the concern that generally in disputed articles, including dabs, when they reach a stable and universally accepted state, the editors who used to watch them stop (because of the stability reached) and new ones unaware of the many reached unanimities and accepted consensus, edit and bring back old problems falling into the same cycles of edits. and unless old editors become chronic constant watchdogs, the articles will be an amorphous mass of mediocre articles swaying around bad quality. i'm talking about the hotly disputed articles. i believe wiki is massively high in quality. does wiki have mechanisms against that? also have you noticed/taken action about the most disputed articles around here? like the Macedonian naming dispute/ Macedonian language naming dispute which reflects to many articles concerning Greeks, Macedonian Greeks, Bulgarians and Slav Macedonians CuteHappyBrute ( talk) 00:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't you have, like, a big red button that just shuts down all of Wikipedia (or some such disaster)?-- Koji † 21:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a current desire to change the design of the main page. Any thoughts anybody? Dr. Blofeld 22:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm admin of Wikias and I understand how hard it is when dealing with vandalism. IP address: 71.233.24.115 is causing vandalism here. It owuld be nice if this person would be blocked to prevent further vandals.-- ☆Tavis ource 06:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, for the past threefive years a user has consistently harassed me (from time to time) in the form of wiki-stalking. You may recall the case concerning
I am very tired of spending my time in keeping this person away from me. To date I have spent countless months gathering evidence case after case documenting the conduct of this user who has been engaged in abusive use of sockpuppets and was indef blocked many times.
Arbcom has not been able to come up with a workable solution and had actually been the very source of the problem. Right now they tell me that they are discussing weather or not to lift the indef ban the community enacted on Jack Merridew (aka User:Davenbelle aka User:Note to Cool Cat aka User:Moby Dick aka User:Diyarbakir). Jack Merridew's indef ban hasn't lasted a full year. I am all for giving people a second chance and this guy had way too many chances (over five chances by my count).
When Jack Merridew requests his ban to be reviewed, suddenly arbcom has time. When I request the remedy banning me from mediation (enacted in 2005 on the first stalking case), arbcom doesn't even bother to properly comment.
I would like you to get involved with this case as my frustration over the matter is beyond words. For the sake of everyones sanity I have prepared a graph of users edit pattern. Please do review it.
-- Cat chi? 21:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I have the intention of becoming a vandal fighter. I have yet to get certain privilages making that easier for me to do. Also, I have stumbled upon a hoax that has been floating around here for more then a year and had it deleted. Will you grant me rollback? J.B. ( talk) 10:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think that every article exceeding a certain size, especially those already having reached WP:GA status or even a higher status, and in particular those known to attract a considerable amount of vandalism because they treat subjects such as politics, religion, pseudoscience (or subjects dogged by pseudoscience), popular culture, celebrities, certain national histories, and such should be semi-protected point-blank. In large, established articles, experience says that the ratio of useful vs. vandal or otherwise unhelpful edits (sometimes difficult to spot) decreases to the extreme. The old argument that IPs contribute most substantial work (new text, as opposed to small corrections) in Wikipedia doesn't apply at this point anymore; only in small and stubbish articles in the growing/build-up phase do their contributions actually tend to be useful, and this is where new Wikipedians are recruited. I haven't ever seen an IP add a single, painstakingly researched source to a large article, or rework it from the ground. Wikipedia addiction starts with small edits, corrections and the build up of new and neglected, small articles, not mammoth projects.
I would gladly run the risk of missing out on a sporadic potentially useful IP edit for the maintenance work saved to detect and revert innumerable brainless junk edits (which also uselessly eat up space in the database, as part of the edit histories). It's a simple cost-benefit calculation. I know this is not going to happen in all likelihood, since it would undermine WP's pretence to be the "encyclopedia anyone can edit" even further, but it would be the logical thing to do. Presumably you agonise with this issue on a regular basis anyway.
Anyway, the implementation of flagged revisions/sighted versions would already be helpful.
On a personal note, I met you at the 21C3, but I can't expect that you remember me. :-) Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo - and thanks for engaging recently in the whole arbcom election thing - it'll no doubt move forward in a wiki way from here - it's a very good thing to have open discussion well ahead of time, in my book :-)
With that in mind, I wondered if you might share a few thoughts about your 'veto' type powers.... If there are users standing for election about whom sufficient concerns are held as to incline you to pass over their candidacy despite their performance in a community poll, would you consider letting them (and maybe the community?) know? Obviously new information could come to light at any time (this would also go for all sitting, and ex-arb.s I guess) but if you were to have present concerns to the point where you wouldn't be comfortable appointing User:Aaron Brenneman, User:Bishzilla, or indeed any of the editors from this fantastically handy guide to arbcom - I think it'd be great to try and clear that up ahead of vote counting.
...and finally - if I were to run, and poll strongly enough, would you have any objection to my serving on the committee? Privatemusings ( talk) 04:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I would be strongly disinclined to appoint anyone who has been reprimanded by the ArbCom less than a year ago for sockpuppeting and inappropriate BLP editing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 15:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
It does raise an interesting question. Is the role of the Arbcom to support Jimbo, the current Arbs, and the Arbs Emeritus, or is the job of the Arbcom to support the community and encyclopedia? In the terms presented by Jimbo above, these are mutually exclusive things. rootology ( C)( T) 06:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I just want to echo the concerns raised above. Jimbo is now moving the goalposts in a subtle way: in the past, he justified having himself as a check on the community's will by saying that he would only skip over an appropriately placed candidate under extremely unlikely circumstances involving the election of an obviously unsuited candidate; he claimed this was about as likely as the British monarch stepping into British politics, "one last safety valve for our values". Now he's saying that he wouldn't appoint anyone who didn't have the approval of the existing ArbCom and former arbitrators—a situation not unlike having the Queen say she wouldn't appoint a Prime Minister who wasn't endorsed by the party already in power. Is it reasonable to think that the arbitrators would approve anyone who they had previously sanctioned? Would they approve anyone who spoke actively in opposition to current ArbCom practices and decisions? Everyking ( talk) 07:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
SlimVirgin raises some stellar points. Arbitrators should not have a veto over the community's picks precisely because the community might wish to select a new crop of people with diverging ideas. More than once this year, Newyrokbrad has remarked that he's never seen so many established users upset with the process. NYB is a veteran clerk and arbitrator, and I think his observations are reliable. It's a true nadir for ArbCom, and future appointees might necessarily be at odds with the current members.
If you don't mean that arbitrators and emeritus arbitrators have a veto, please clarify your thoughts.
Incidentally, the terms of arbitrators ought to be shorter. I'm not the first to say this (and SlimVirgin makes a compelling case above). Very few arbitrators have ever served the whole term anyway, and even those arbitrators needed vacations. More importantly, shorter terms helps ensure that the community will not be governed by unresponsive and inactive arbitrators. Cool Hand Luke 21:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify one point, if a concern arises, arbitrators are experienced at looking at editors who are under consideration for privacy related access. If Jimbo wants a second opinion whether there is likely to be any issue with the community's wishes, that the community may not know or may have under-rated, or the like, that is the point he may ask advice. The role of Arbcom would very much be "if needed for input, ask". Arbitrators are not being asked to make the decision, and that is a role I would utterly reject if presented. But to collaborate in helping, as seasoned experienced users all of whom have held that role for a year or more, that's fair. If Jimbo does wish to ask impressions from individuals how they think a certain choice stands, then like any time we're approached to give advice and input by anyone in the community, the inquirer is likely to get honest answers how people there may see it.
I'm fairly sure Jimbo will ask users outside Arbcom too. If he didn't ask Arbcom then he'd ask people he trusted, many of whom incidentally may be arbitrators. Any user in the community who is making a decision, may ask around those they trust, to inquire what they may think. But in none of these scenarios is Arbcom in any way choosing its successors. Rather, Jimbo is soliciting input from any users he may wish to, on a decision that he will make. While the election may indicate who is likely to be a good choice for the community, it's a blunt tool for making a final choice of 6 out of 10. The final order may ultimately depend on a non-issue, such as a couple of personal-grudge opposes, or a slight stacked pro/anti vote, exactly as at any other vote. Asking others for input to help validate whether the community's choice is truly a good one, is a sane measure, and whether or not Jimbo asks Arbcom for input, I would expect him to probably ask others. The aim, like CheckUser, is to appoint the users most likely to be the best, not just the most popular. We're used to being asked consultative questions, by administrators and the community, and its a role we help with if requested. FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Just to second, what Giano has said above. I note, Jimbo, your own post here where you say "I have in fact voluntarily agreed to limitations of my power, and I will do so more and more over time". No comment on the first part, but on the second part you seem to indicate your own realization of that the "community has matured and now wants to run its own affairs", as Giano notes above. Besides, this is what every other language wikipedia does. And note, that the en-wiki is by far the most mature community of all of them. I think that the time to "do so more and more over time" has long since come, but perhaps you disagree with my assessment? Do you have any timetable of your own in mind? Also, why do you think en-wiki needs your guidance while other wikis, certainly less mature than enwiki overall, run well without it? -- Irpen 18:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
On the same theme as the above, and a slightly different angle. if Jimbo did give up his traditional role, what exactly would be proposed as a check or balance, in the event that the community itself went off the rails over time?
There is a very serious question here. The community is made up of many thousands of users. It has an impetus all of its own. It can sweep internal opposition to bad ideas aside and convince itself bad ideas are good or necessary ones. It changes over time. It is - like all societies - capable of choosing over time, directions and "politics" that diverge from its core roots and goals, and it is capable of fooling itself that it is on track if it does so. "People will know" has never stopped undesirable social change in any other society, and I see zero reason to believe that "people will know" would stop this one going sideways either. Right now, there is one outside safeguard against that: Jimbo. Not WMF, not "editors who care" (people who know what's right have never been able to withstand gradual social change for the worse anywhere else). The community needs to recognize its role a bit here.
It is (and we are) a tool, a device to create an encyclopedia. It is not the focus or the aim of "Wikipedia", and it isn't here to make a society, a democracy, or any other social structure, other than such social structure as is best suited for content creation and maintenance. Does a structure intended to meet that goal need a check or balance to pure self-guided community power wherever that may lead? Obviously yes.
I'd be interested if the community did start to slip sideways - for example subtle changes to its norms started to take hold that might over time undermine its goals - if there came a time the community was answerable to nobody, had no reins, no check or balance, was subject only to the choices of those who could most shout or be effective demagogues in their little turf... who exactly would have the ability to say effectively "this isn't okay"?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
FT2 posed a rhetorical question above: what if the community were left on its own, with no leader, answerable to nobody? I agree with him that it would devolve very quickly into chaos. However, I'm not suggesting that the community be left on its own, or with no leader, or answerable to nobody. I simply don't think that Jimbo should be the person to lead the community or be the person the community is answerable to simply because of tradition.
FT2 also raised another point: isn't it a good thing to have somebody outside the community have the final approval of our Committee members, in case we (the community) go crazy? With this, I disagree. What if Jimbo goes crazy, so to speak? We have no action of recourse other than a direct social fork of the project, since Jimbo is the Person in Charge. This point of view seems to be based on the assumption that Jimbo is somehow more stable than the community as a whole.
In fact, nearly all arguments for having Jimbo retain his "position" make the assumption that Jimbo is somehow more stable, or somehow more honest, or somehow better than the community as a whole. I see little thought given to the theoretical situations where, for example, Jimbo is the person going off the rails or changing the goalposts or Jimbo is the person making the wrong decision. There's a big assumption of good faith here, but I am reluctant to blindly assume good faith when a project of this size is at stake. Looking at Jimbo's history on this project, I feel distinctly uneasy.
Rhetorically I ask myself, what would happen if Jimbo did approve a candidate with no community support? I suppose there'd be a large song and dance, but we, the community, would probably calm down after a while. And, even if we didn't, what could we do? Nothing on this project, because Jimbo is the big man in charge here.
To ensure the stability of goals is the function of a virtually unchangeable constitutional document, not of a human leader. For a long time, I've wished Wikipedia had a constitution that outlined its fundamental goals and the fundamental rights and responsibilities of its community of contributors. Perhaps this is the time to develop and maintain a constitution. We cannot really rely on any human leaders, or group of the same, to consistently steer the community and the project towards the same goalposts.
The constitution of too many people around here, seemingly including Jimbo, is ignore all rules. Unfortunately, ignore all rules is extremely vague, subject to subjective interpretation, inconsistent over various situations, and assuming of consistent goodwill of all contributors. Not that I want to start a debate over ignore all rules just now, but in itself it is no sensible constitution.
Finally, bringing me back to what started this entire debate thing off, I don't feel that you, Jimbo, need to approve Committee members. Other Wikipedias have Arbitration Committees, and they cope very well without your approving their members. Particularly, I am very uncomfortable with your repeatedly ignoring my requests for clarification on the limits of your powers. – Thomas H. Larsen 22:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm Dylan, a Wikipedian who has been purely active for two months and counting. I must commend you for founding what is now my favorite website. I have become engaged in numerous events on Wikipedia, which include:
And yet I still have a large amount of time on my hands. I guess I should stop now. See you later!
P.S.: Have you ever thought about increasing your own article to featured status? --Dylan620 ( Home • yadda yadda yadda • Ooooohh!) 16:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello! I'm not sure where to put this, but I noticed the very first contributions of administrators Tannin ( first edits), Camembert ( first edits) and Mintguy ( first edits). Their first edit summaries contained (Moved to "[insert title here]") and they both made their first edit at the exact same time, which was 08:43, 25 February 2002. Could they be legitimate sockpuppets? SchfiftyThree (talk!) 21:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, I was wondering if there was a site that could be created to direct debates about article topics to. There's already a lot of Wikipedia sites, so I think there should be a Wikidebate site.
Hi there Jimbo. I'm a relatively new user who came to Wikipedia to do a bit of reading and tried to make a few corrections. My experiences here have been deeply troubling. Any and all dissent seems to be stifled aggresively. But I thought maybe if someone drew the problem to your attention you might be able to offer a suggestion or some encouragement. I'm one of the many frustrated well intentioned people who's been harassed, intimidated and attacked for trying to improve the encyclopedia. I almost called it your encyclopedia. :) Well, let me know if you want any details or specifics on my concerns, experiences or problems here. It's an amazing resource to be sure. But it's problems are creating enormous tension and dissention, much of it unnecessary in my opinion. Don't leave me out in Sherwood Forest (to use the words of another hero of the avergae Joe). I don't want to be a Robin Hood. I just want to edit some articles and work cooperatively with others. BobDysart ( talk) 00:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I saw your note on the talk page and removed the unsourced personal information. The rest is uncontroversial factual information and there is definitely an assertion of importance so not a speedy. You mention page blanking which isn't the right way to do this. If the article needs to go due to BLP concerns the right thing to do is to speedy it and put it up for deletion review but in this case there really isn't anything left in the article that would violate WP:BLP. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 07:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
A one line stub linking to the big ass show would have been appropriate but she is too notable not to be mentioned, or for that matter to have the article speedied, she is far more well known than the articles for countless blp subjects. I have re-written the article as a stub which sources its claims. Thanks, SqueakBox 14:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I thought you'd be interested in and might like to comment on the above. RMHED ( talk) 21:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear Jim, Astrosociology is the study of the effect of outer space on human behaviour in outer space or other. It is largely uncovered as one may expect but has a few books, a few sections in old NASA reference books, and gains a few thousand hits on a search as a term of sorts. The Wikipedia article about the subject has been deleted as a non notable topic. I don't think this is a discussion you would involve in but it may be interesting to see what is or not currently notable on the wiki (lol). ~ R. T. G 16:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok - travelling to Brussels tonight to give this talk having said which my identity should be obvious. In case any confusion, this thread refers. All the best Jimbo. Americanlinguist ( talk) 22:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole concept of blocking and banning is an anachronistic tribal practice that not only predates the advent of the Rule of Law, it's the very subject of the first three laws ever carved onto stone tablets, some 3750 years ago...
These are the first three laws, in their entirety, of the Code of Hammurabi, translated into English:
- 1. If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.
- 2. If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.
- 3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.
The second law seems bizarre by modern standards. It appears to be the source of the dismissive phrase, "Go jump in the lake." (Compare to the Yiddish expression, Nem zich a vaneh! "Go take a bath! Go jump in the lake!")
There are 282 such laws in the Code of Hammurabi, each no more than a sentence or two. The 282 laws are bracketed by a pukeworthy Prologue in which Hammurabi introduces himself, and a narcissistic Epilogue in which he affirms his authority and sets forth his hopes and prayers for his code of laws.
Note that Wikipedia is not even as evolved as Hammurabi, since Wikipedia does not even do the level of due process required of Hammurabi's first law.
Given that Wikipedia has adopted an anachronistic pre-Hammurabic tribalistic ochlocracy that does not even rise to the level of the Code of Hammurabi, is it any wonder that Wikipedia is the venue of recurring classic liminal social drama that reprises the oldest stories in the annals of human history?
Hammurabi's notion was to advise everyone to go jump in the lake when they are tainted with an unproven allegation.
I reckon the secular cultural practice of absolution through ablution inspired the Early Morning Baptisers of Qumran to co-opt Hammurabi's Remedy into the Mikvah Ritual Bath. Baptismal sin cleansing survives to this day in most Christian denominations.
Of course there was that interlude in the desert where there were no bodies of holy water, so Aaron devised an alternate ritual involving a delightful goat named Caprice. I am rather fond of Caprice, since her story inspired portions of the Passion of Christ.
I find it ironic that a site that purports to offer the sum of all human knowledge is still struggling to learn the oldest lessons in the annals of human history.
So I suggest people wash their hands of Jimbo's anachronistic cult of pre-Hammurabic tribalism, cleanse themselves of the grit by jumping in the lake, and evolving to a more modern and enlightened governance model along the lines suggested by such innovative pioneers as Moses, Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Maimonides, Thomas Becket, Stephen Langton, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas Gandhi, ML King, Thich Nhat Hanh, John Rawls, Father John Dear, Barak Obama, Kermit the Frog, and Barsoom Tork Associates.
Barsoom Tork 01:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.243.57 ( talk)
I'm shocked at the results of Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 November 6#Template:User en-gb-5. Is that really what Wikipedia is about? I had really thought this place was supposed to be a collegiate environment where I wouldn't need to deal with being insulted by people I don't know just because I'm an American. I was going to leave but I just wanted to make sure I hadn't lost my mind about the vision of this place. Mintrick ( talk) 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Annoy me once, shame on you. Annoy me twice, shame on me. Please at least provide a "dismiss" button so that dedicated volunteers are not constantly disoriented by the irritating fundraising banner that has been added to the top of all pages. Thank you. Geometry guy 10:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If you do not want the banner.Please go my preferences and Browsing gadgets and select Suppress display of the fundraiser site notice.Wikipedia is being run free and a great fashion without advertisement and which any user can contribute.If there is banner which can removed ,I wonder why people are objecting considering the fact that there is a provision to remove it and further despite being widely used.No advertisements are allowed unlike sites which have only a few visitors.The fact the provision to remove it in gadgets was done basically clearly shows that fact that even this only optional.We need to thankful for all running Wikipedia for doing it so efficiently. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 21:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Before I contribute, I was wondering Jimbo why we need $6 million. I thought it was $3 million. Could you please explain why this amount is needed? It seems rather higher than normal Count Blofeld 14:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Mr. Wales. Do you think that Wikimedia users' access histories are private, or do you think someday Wikimedia web logs can be sold or free for all, like edit histories are nowadays? The privacy policy is clear on this. The security note, however, wisely says that even now there are no guarantees. May I please quote your reply in an op-ed if I find a publisher (like this one on a related topic)? Best wishes. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. I just wanted to say I enjoyed the conference you gave last Thursday at Universidad de Belgrano and looking forward to seeing you again at Wikimania next year. And the last thing, thanks for making Internet not suck! bcartolo ( talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ?
NB This discussion is also covered on User:Apovolot/Expert peer review page. Please note that I am suggesting "Expert peer review" feature only as optional one (conducted per request) - so I am not suggesting to abolish current practices but instead proposing to enhance those. I understand that no one wants to give up the feel of being empowered and to be in power ... I am not objecting to massive amateur volunteerism, on which Wikipedia was able to build upon so far - it is something to be admired indeed. I am not denying also that participating in Wikipedia in general first of all enhances the subject knowledge of the participants themselves (which is wonderful achievement on its own). It is also very interesting phenomena that Wikipedia "machine" has matured into classical bureaucracy with its own rules, its own authorities, it own "lingo" and its own resistance to further changes / enhancements, etc. However I am quite frankly "stunned" by the statements similar to those made by the User:Rtc, who claims that the scientific expertize, which is certified by the obtained scientific degrees, is not advantageous for editing encyclopedia's articles (those articles, which have the scientific context). Does such "claim" assumes that in general professional scientists get their scientific degrees without demonstratively proving their expert qualifications ? If to follow above claim deeper, why not to go "further" along this line of logic and state that professional scientists do not contribute into advance of science ? - If so, then who does ? ;-) May be the science (per User:Rtc ) is a fictional field altogether ? (;-)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apovolot ( talk • contribs) 00:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Apovolot ( talk) 00:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
User: Shotwell suggested (on my talk page) "I would endorse a WP:EXPERTADVICE page that outlined the wikipedia policies and goals for researchers in a way that enticed them to edit here in an appropriate fashion. Perhaps a well-maintained list of expert editors with institutional affiliation would facilitate this sort of highly informal review process. I don't think anyone would object to a well-maintained list of highly-qualified researchers with institutional affiliation (but then again, everyone seems to object to something)."
We could start with that if you would agree ... - could you help to push his idea through Wikipedia bureaucracy ? Cheers, Apovolot ( talk) 17:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps owner of this page together with other Wikipedia decision making participants will be willing to show flexibility and attempt to achieve reasonable compromised (re-)unification agreement (perhaps using some ideas from my proposal) with both Veropedia and Citizendium ? Such unification would put to an end useless dispersion of resources ! Apovolot ( talk) 16:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Exactly - and because of this, editors without confirmed expertise in the subject they are editing cannot be considered reliable. Those with such qualifications are neither inherently useful, nor "can be considered" reliable. I fully agree that many people with qualifications have something good to contribute and I am ready to accept that those without qualifications often write a lot of crap. But your claim that there is something inherently different between someone with qualifications and those without is simply wrong. Often, people with qualifications write nonsense, often they produce articles full of POV. On the other hand, people without qualifications do make useful contributions and sometimes even surpass the contributions of those with qualifications. It is thus wrong to say that editors with a degree are superior to those without. It is always individual contributions by individual authors that are superior to each other. A bad contribution does not become better because of the fact that it was written by someone who has a degree, and a good contribution does not become worse because of the fact that it was written by someone who has no degree.
If someone wishes to depict themselves as an authority on a given subject, the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate a sufficient understanding of the subject to be accepted as such, not on others to prove that they lack that understanding. The purpose of peer review is an objective one, not a subjective one, or put simply, it is about finding errors in articles, not about depicting oneself as an authority. Wikipedia is not about its authors, it is about its encyclopedia articles.
While individuals may very well be an authority, until such time as their knowledge has been proven they cannot be accepted as such. Why not? And do we need to accept anyone as an authority at all? Is it not the truth or falsity of what they say that matters, rather than who they are to say it?
Their contributions may be worthwhile, but this can only be determined by those with proven expertise on the subject in question, and unless and until such experts have examined each and every contribution made by non-experts, those contributions cannot be considered to be authoritive. Why not? And do we need to consider any contribution to be authoritative at all? Is it not the neutrality and accuracy of the contribution that matters, rather than the authority of the person who wrote it?
"Nor does it mean that if it has been found to be of a low standard in the past that it is still of a low standard." It does, however, further mitigate against the reliability of said editor. Clearly not, because someone who today has a high standard but has had a low standard yesterday is not expected to have a low standard tomorrow. And if he would be, it would certainly be no different for the one with a degree. Clearly, many of those with a degree had low standards sometime in the past. We are not born as little professors.
but those standards, and any improvement in them, can only be determined by those with proven knowledge of the subject in question - i.e. those with a degree or similar academic qualification. This argument is clearly invalid, because it contains an infinite regress (as all forms of justificationism do). It is also quite wrong. We do not need a degree or similar academic qualification to judge whether someone's contributions are good.
Let me illustrate my argument with a little passage from Plato's Meno:
Socrates now begins an apologetic defense of knowledge and claims that "knowledge is something more valuable than right opinion" (I disagree with him about that), but he stresses again that "true opinion when it governs any course of action produces as good a result as knowledge." "for practical purposes right opinion is no less useful than knowledge." -- rtc ( talk) 21:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Just wanted to notify you and everybody else who monitors this page that AOL ip addresses have been indefinitely blocked. I've used them to edit for 2 years. It would be nice to have edit privileges restored. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo! What will happen, if too less money is donated? Do we have to start (temporarily) a new project? :) Cheers, -- Yikrazuul ( talk) 16:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, About your travels around the world: Please don't forget about Tokyo! I am especially proud to say that you have actually visited my school (The American School in Japan), so please put some pictures in if you can! Thank you! Nihonshoku ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC).
Could you please please prove your innocence to article, second to last paragraph? It's not that I don't trust you, but it's kinda disturbing. Leujohn ( talk, How did I do?) 05:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I recently responded to User:RetroS1mone, who deleted a post by User: 80.237.191.141 from Talk:AIDS denialism, because, according to Simone, it consisted of " libellous remarks". I reverted the deletion, since WP is not censored, and the nature of the post's reliability is something that should be discussed. Another editor, User:SheffieldSteel even went so far as to edit 80.237.191.141's post, which seems to me to be grossly inappropriate. The ensuing discussion is here on Simone's Talk Page and here on mine. S1mone cites WP:BLP, which says "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." I pointed out to S1mone WP:Censor, which states that "content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed", and that to my knowledge, the post in question was not so judged, in Florida, or elsewhere. My position is that it is better to refute disputed material with one's counterarguments, rather than to have one editor make the unilateral declaration that material is poorly sourced or libelous, and indeed, other editors indeed refuted 80.237.191.141's post. The problem is that 80.237.191.141's post is still deleted, but responses to it are still there, and it has now been archived, which makes absolutely no sense. How can you archive a discussion for future readers if the original post that started it has been censored? I can't understand why WP policy would call for unsourced or poorly sourced material to be removed from Talk Pages, at least before a determination of source reliability has been made. Can you explain why WP:BLP says this about Talk Pages, and what the proper interpretation of this is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightscream ( talk • contribs)
See, this goes directly to the problem I perceive with this: Who gets to make the determination that a post is a "ranting agenda" or "attack", and how, if not by a collaborative discussion? If it can be established to be an attack, then why can others not be privy to the manner in which it was determined to be such in an open and transparent process? When someone is judged to have libeled or slandered in court, they don't go back and cut out the instance from all the extant newspapers or video clips; it is simply understood that that act remains a part of the public record, and that the judgment will be part of the record too. Jimbo, you say that you would delete the post, and resummarize it. Why? Why not let observers see the uncensored act so they can judge both it and the refutations of it? I also notice that you close your suggestion with a hypothetical question put to the public regarding the Janine Roberts book (which is what the editor mentioned, and not a website). But if you admit that you're not familiar with the book, how then can you conclude that the post is a ranting attack without substance? Shouldn't the info in the book be reviewed for verification purposes before such a determination is made? Nightscream ( talk) 16:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"I didn't conclude that the book is a ranting attack without substance. And what people should do is refactor, including a note that indicates what happened, and I did not suggest deletion of the revision (so that only admins could see it) nor oversight (so no one could see it). I just suggested editing and refactoring it and explaining what happened." The problems I describe here are not predicated on the idea that wiki talk pages are message boards, nor did I indicate or imply otherwise. They are predicated on the idea that if unless a posting is deliberate vandalism, intelligible gibberish, or an assertion for which the editor doesn't mention a source that even remotely seems valid or in good faith (which would make deletion reasonable), and is instead something that can be refuted on the basis of evidence and reason, that the posting should remain intact, and followed by that refutation.
I never said that you concluded anything about the book in question or that the “revision” be deleted. Those are your words, not mine. You did however, make a certain statement, and that is the only one I responded to. You said that “Wikipedia is not a place for people with ranting agendas to come and smear people they don't like”, and I asked, who gets to decide whether a talk page post is a “ranting agenda” or “smear”, what criteria are prescribed to make this determination, and how will others validate that those proper criteria were employed if the original post has been mutilated or censored with what you call “refactoring”? Again, what is wrong with leaving it the way it is, so that others can see what the original post was, and then the basis on which those who responded debunked it? You don’t think that editing another person’s comments AND responding to in order to refute it comes across as not only redundant overkill, but a rather Orwellian bit of censorship? By editing another person’s posts, and then responding to it, you’re changing the original, intended meaning of the post, and giving a false context to the responses that follow it.
In addition, why refer to the editing of a post by someone other than its author with a five dollar euphemism like “refactor”? That word doesn’t appear at dictionary.com, in my MS Word’s dictionary, or in the American Heritage Dictionary, nor could I find a pertinent usage for “factor” in those sources. Using an obscure euphemism to describe something that is more easily described by a more common term like “edit” or “re-edit” seems just as Orwellian as the editing of the post itself.
As for your statement “I just suggested editing and refactoring it and explaining what happened”, this is contradicted by the fact that you previously said “RetroS1mone did the right thing”. S1mone did not “edit and refactor it”. She deleted it.
“Anyone who needs to see it can go into the history, and if someone feels that the original removal was too hasty, it can be brought back. This is a wiki, not a message board, and that's what transparency means in a wiki - the history is there. I think it is a bit odd for you to suggest that this is "censorship" or that it is a removal of anything "from the public record".” It is indeed a form of censorship, because you are making it harder for an observer, especially a future one, to read the original post. When someone reads the Talk Page, either in its current form, or even when it is eventually archived, they can read the original post and the responses that followed it, in a natural context. But people are less inclined to click on the History when doing so, especially since most may be unacquainted with the practice of having a discussion thread follow a deleted or edited post.
In addition, two different posts by User: 80.237.191.141 were so edited. What is a reader supposed to do, have three different windows/tabs open, one with the current or most recent version of the thread, and then two others in which the reader slogged through the page’s history to see the original versions of the two edited posts? Wouldn’t it be just plain easier to keep the post intact?
Let me ask you this: First, what is the harm in keeping the original post intact? Now once you have the answer to that in mind, let me ask you a follow-up: In what way is that harmful quantity not present in the version of the post that is still visible in the History section? Why does the former provide some problem that is not present in the latter?
Also, wouldn't it be education to leave the full, contextual discussion intact for a future editor, perhaps an AIDS denialist, who may want to add material based on the same sources? If they want to know why info from so-and-such-book or so-can-such-interview is not admissable, they might more easily see that discussion and have it answered for them, giving the discussion a greater educational value for future editors. Removing all references to the sources, makes this less likely, even if you leave History links in, since an editor may try doing a Page Find by the title or author, and not look for the link text.
“I hate to sound too academic, but I am of two minds on this subject…” J Readings, I actually like academic discussions, but you’re talking about material added to an article. We’re talking about discussion on a Talk Page. Talk Pages should be a more open and lenient environment in which people, including dissenters, should be able to present an idea, complaint or argument, and which people respond to that idea on the basis of empirical criteria that are explicitly given. User: 80.237.191.141 made an assertion that he/she attributed to two sources. Instead of explaining why those sources were unacceptable, it was deleted, then edited by someone else after it was restored, and then deleted again, and then followed by a thread that did failed to explain why the source was unreliable, or provide sources that it was self-published—which has still not been provided. When I read and issue of Skeptic or Skeptical Inquirer, the columnists do not distort or re-edit quotes by a fringe idea supporter. Doing so presents the danger of making a Straw Man argument. They respond to the assertion in detail by explaining what’s wrong with it.
“Self published sources are not reliable, WP:SPS "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published then claim to be an expert in a certain field.” And not once in that discussion did you or SheffieldSteel establish that the post was sourced by a website or self-published book. In fact, neither of you even asserted this. What you instead said was that it was “unsourced” (not the same thing as “poorly sourced” or “self-sourced”), and that it was “defamatory”. User: 80.237.191.141 named two sources: A 1997 interview with Djamel Tahi Montagnier, and a book by Janine Roberts. Not once did anyone ask—or apparently get an opportunity to ask User: 80.237.191.141 the title, publication date or any other details about this interview or book. So how exactly do you know that it was self-published, and why did you not at least note this in the discussion?
“Self published book-self published website was used, to say a living person, is a fraud and a cheat and liar and forger.” The assertion was that Gallo “falsified documents”. The use of four different synonyms to describe this assertion is yours, and yours alone, and the temperament behind such a choice in language seems rather unnecessary and POV-ish.
“That is not acceptible so i deleted it.” And yet, Jimbo here has given contradictory information as to whether he finds this acceptable.
"On the question of "who gets to decide": this is a wiki. Who gets to decide is anyone who chooses to join the dialog!" I joined the dialogue.
I decided that the post should remain, and be debunked by the posts made in response to it.
Instead, it was repeatedly deleted or edited, and you upheld that this was acceptable (though you later indicated it was not). So please don’t say that anyone who joins chooses, because the reality is a bit more complex than this. What happened was that you upheld a unilateral deletion by one editor who did not (and still hasn’t) provided evidence that the sources were self-published, and suggested a protocol that makes it harder for future readers to see what was originally said. You did not uphold the restoration of the post by another editor. It’s one thing for anyone joining a discussion to voice their positions. It’s another for them to unilaterally delete a post without providing evidence that it violates policy.
This is my suggestion for when a Talk Page assertion should be deleted and when it should not be:
“ |
|
” |
In the first instance, the assertion was inflammatory, and a source was asserted that was clearly not valid. In the second, the source sounded like a valid one, so the discussion was kept provisionally open. In the third, the apparently valid source was shown to be false, and the entire discussion was deleted not only because the assertion was inflammatory, but judged to have no value to future readers. In the last, the assertion was rejected, but the discussion kept, because archiving it provides an explanation to future advocates of the same fringe theory as to why that source is unacceptable. Doesn't this seem reasonable? Nightscream ( talk) 00:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I already explained above what I see as the problem with your actions, and Jimbo's contradictory apparently comments about it. I do not favor any relaxation or change to policy, but a proper implementation of it. You did not establish that the material was libelous, potentially libelous, or self-published, but merely asserted that it was in an Edit Summary, something that anyone can do with material that they don't like. WP:RS does not claim that one can just declare by mere fiat that a source is unacceptable without explanation, or that "later" means "not at all", since you still have not explained how you know the material is self-published, or how its origin is "well-known". Nightscream ( talk) 02:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to report an anonymous user whose referenced edits did not correspond to the original source. I have detected seven cases of his abusing citations which can be divided into two types.
1. By altering deliberately the original source in favor of her/his purpose, her/his referenced edits are different from the contents of the original source. [12], [13](upper one), [14] [15](the lowerst one)
2. By adding reference, this user intended to support her/his faulty information, which is in fact not existent in the original source material at all. [16](lower one)
Basically, this user strongly tends to change, remove and correct her/his previous own edits by her/himself, so that the correctness and accuracy of her/his contributions cannot be guaranteed at all. So I have had to keep constantly an eye on the user, correcting her/his wrong edits. Despite my three times warning allowing plenty time (ca. 6 weeks) of self-correction, this user made no sincere reaction but just tried to cloud the main issue. S/he can not even realize the seriousness of her/his wrongdoing.
Considering her/his attempt to maintain false referenced edits despite my four times warning [17], [18], [19], [20] , this user should be blocked indefinitely from working on this article Goguryeo language in order to prevent her/his further possible distortions of the original source materials for the wrong purpose. Above all, her/his abuse of citations not only degrades the authority of Wikipedia, but also affects badly to the academic reputation of the author of the original source material. So this user should be blocked for her/his fabrication from editing Wikipedia. Jagello ( talk) 10:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, wenn Du Dich nicht bald um Deine verrottete deutsche Filiale kümmerst, dann wird Dir der Laden noch um die Ohren fliegen. Da wette ich 100 Dollar drauf. Und wenn Du schon mal dabei bist, dann schau Dir auch mal die dunklen Empfehlungen aus dem Chat für Adminposten an, - für Leute, die vielleicht mal einen oder zwei Artikel geschrieben haben. Und dann schau Dir auch mal die de:Inzucht unter den Admins an, die überhaupt noch nie gewählt wurden. Das lässt sich nicht mit der Entfernung von zwei, drei Leuten regeln. Da ist eine Grundsanierung fällig. Grüssle 78.49.85.78 ( talk) 14:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Ich lerne deutsch, aber mein deutsch ist noch sehr schlecht. Aber, mit dem Google-translate und eine Freunde von mir, ich glaube dass ich verstehe sich ein bisschen. I am learning German, but my German is still very bad. But, with Google translate and a friend of mine, I believe that I understand you a little bit. I will try to read the link you have sent me, but it will be difficult for me.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 11:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
{removed post of User:Thomas7, nothing as absurdity}
Hallo Jimbo, Guten Tag! Ich lerne auch ein bisschen Deutsch! Deutsch ist ja eine sehr nett Sprache; Alt Englisch ist auch (doch, traurig, fast niemand spricht Alt Englisch). Danke fuer die Wikipedia Seite. Gottistgut ( talk) 07:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | → | Archive 45 |
Hello. Just wanted to notify you and everybody else who monitors this page that AOL ip addresses have been indefinitely blocked. I've used them to edit for 2 years. It would be nice to have edit privileges restored. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Which IPs? You need to post the unblock template on the talk page of the IP involved. There are 4 billion IP addresses and we are not good guessers. Thatcher 04:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC) There is no "I.P involved". She said she is using AOL (as are 4 million other people). That means her I.P. address changes every time she signs on to the internet - and that is every day since dial-up users also have to have their open when they are not online.Rayvn (talk) 03:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what's wrong with people, blocking all these IPs *solely* because they are public (I.P edits are anonymous anyway - right? If abuse happens, I.P. can be blocked and appealed later if necessary.) But, I think when an I.P. is blocked for being public a user should still be able to create an account, etc. Some users don't have their own computers - or may have simply forgotten a password. I.P. is irrelevant in password recovery because the password still goes to a personal e-mail address.Rayvn (talk) 19:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC) Public IPs that are abused by vandals to create accounts and to vandalize will be blocked until the vandal gets bored and goes away. Thatcher 04:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC) I didn't say anything about vandals. I said, "But, I think when an I.P. is blocked for being public a user should still be able to create an account, etc." If an I.P. is blocked for being public, that means no abuse ever happened. What you statement should have said was, "Public IPs that are abused by vandals to create accounts and to vandalize will be blocked until the vandal gets bored and goes away." Because in that case it does not matter if the I.P. is public or not that it's blocked, it only matters that the notice mentioned that the I.P. is public. An I.P. should not, however, be blocked until this happens, should not be blocked from creating new accounts unless the vandal has tried to create a new account from the same I.P. at least once, and password recovery should never be blocked because a SPAMmer cannot abuse that. What I am saying is that an I.P. should not be blocked until it is abused (and then removed after say 90 days or upon request from another user if more then say 10 days have passed and the user does not seem to be the SPAMmer), because doing anything else serves no purpose other then to annoy Wikipedians and prevent contributions from being made by many people (think of a college for example - there's probably at least 50,000 Wikipedians using those computers). In addition you should make sure never to block an OL (or other dial-up) I.P., unless the SPAMmer is still logged onto Wikipedia when you do it in which case the block can auto-expire in 24 hours, because the next time that SPAMmer uses the computer, his I.P. will be a different one.Rayvn (talk) 03:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. This was resolved over a month ago. To my knowledge there is no reason to repost my comment. The ip that was blocked was the one I signed the post with. Please, let's not clog up Jimmy's page. Have a nice day. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Exactly how is an issue "resolved" if I haven't responded to an issue that I myself posted about? In case you haven't noticed, this is Wikipedia, meaning that nothing is ever resolved unless/until every person who reads it does not feel the need to comment. Also, anything "clogging up" Jimbo's page is his own decision, when he choose to archive everything he also created the need for any discussion to be reposted each time a new comment is added. That is beyond my control. Rayvn ( talk) 20:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering here, but seeing as you are the almighty-final say in everything power on wikipedia, what do you think of something like this where the guy gets piled on for the answer to a question, opposed for being a wrestling fan, and told off for not answering an optional qustion about his age evn though the oft agreed lower limit is 12? (I was 13 when I first had an RFA and noone pulled me up for it (I phailed anyway)) PXK T /C 19:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Jim, First, please check out the history of the Henotheism page.
You are perhaps already more aware than I am that there are abusive users on Wikipedia. There is no doubt about it. What is sad is that even admins abuse their special privileges regularly without any "checks and balances". All this just to go with "consensus" instead of basing decisions on "verifiable" facts. This is violation of the very mandate of what admins are for and waste of time for good faith editors. In the long run, this will keep poor contributors in and sway away good faith editors. While I was a target of abusive editing practices by others, I was blocked by User:YellowMonkey from arbitration (as a punishment for my notifying an abusive admin to arb)!!! All this instead of User:YellowMonkey issuing some sort of warning to an abusive admin User:Dougweller or asking him to refrain from abusive practices in the future. The disputed content was discussed at Talk:Aditya. Anyway, while watching the history of the Henotheism page today (as it is I'm blocked), I noticed that another person User:ADvaitaFan also seems to have run into the same issue i.e. continued forced edit reversals even after that good faith editor added links so others can verify the corrections he (or she) had made. The edit reversal again in this case done by admin User:Dougweller~! Doug's last rv note says "it is clear there is no consensus for this edit" and nothing about "verifiability" of facts discussed on the Talk: Henotheism page. All this goes totally against Wikipedia Wikipedia:Verifiability guidelines. I am wondering why Wikipedia would make such people as admins! Even long-timers like User:Dbachmann also seem to playing the edit reversal game just to go with the flow of whatever the admin likes. With the current approach, this great project is bound to fail, especially if nothing changes. The content will most certainly not be high grade if "consensus" instead of "verifiability" is used as the yardstick. The smart people of Wikipedia need to figure out and fix this "bandit ring game" for good. What's really disturbing is even long-timers dabble in mindlessly just to look good within the circle of favor (especially to admins), and admins can't seem to separate wheat from shaff, while also ruthlessly pushing their own POV!!! This again goes totally against the Wikipedia:NPOV principle. At minimum, a neutral hidden committee (arbitration not comprising of admins) should monitor all admins and keep score of their actions secretly. Wikipedia needs to look closely at their stats and seriously at rules on admin monitoring. If admins themselves engage in Wikipedia:Edit_warring, this goes totally against the very foundation of building a great encyclopedia. Better still if admin monitoring can be done programatically instead of this current affinity-based approach. Where we are today, further degradation of content and even more POV content is almost guaranteed. I'd love to hear back from you if Wikipedia is already working along these lines or what your planned next steps are. Be well. VedicScience ( talk) 09:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to begin a discussion as found here: [ [1]][ [2]] Could you please start the discussion off since I'having a problem with the link. Please and thank you. Researcher123456789 ( talk) 13:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
When I write my soap opera, may I use this website, Facebook and other search engines as references for My Beloved Girlfriend? Ericthebrainiac ( talk) 17:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Make sure you check out the sources first then; you never know...
Wikisaver62 (
talk)
10:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I reccomend you do not let any random people edit your user page, an invitation like that is difficult to come by and some malicious people would ruin the page to get a kick out of it. No offense, but you really are too trusting. Wikisaver62 ( talk) 10:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, in an earlier thread at this talk page in a discussion about notability you said The Simpson's anomaly is probably my own personal fault, because way back in the day before I really understood the limitations of the medium, I said something like "We should have an article on every episode of The Simpson's, why not?" Whereas now, if I were voting, I would vote to delete. I am curious to hear your response to Durova's subsequent query - which of those articles would you "vote to delete" ? Cirt ( talk) 07:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, so you'd seriously delete articles that the community has decided to feature? Now I don't call myself an inclusionist, but there are five volunteers who worked very hard for many months to earn a spot here. I look at this thread and shake my head; to them your post has got to be a punch in the gut. Durova Charge! 07:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
What has changed since your original proclamation to make you reconsider? The cynical side of me says it's the for profit Wikia you launched which would love said articles and their traffic... but I hope it's wrong. the wub "?!" 00:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
This relates to commons:Image:Anal Creampie.JPG, recently placed on MediaWiki:Bad image list after being used for vandalism. A couple years back, you deleted Image:Creampiesex.jpg, used in Creampie (sexual act), with the edit summary "Image would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements." (It appears that the image and log has since been oversighted, but I wrote down the incident at Wikipedia:Pornography#Jimbo Wales on obscenity.) Given how similar the images are, I wonder if you could clarify whether your previous deletion was a one-off and the stance of the higher ups have changed in the meantime, if you reserve summary deletion of these types of images for yourself, if admins have authority to do out of process deletion for these types of images as well, or if you wish this image to go through normal deletion discussions? Thanks, Banyan Tree 01:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
All images which would trigger 2257 record keeping requirements should be deleted on sight, and the uploader blocked for simple vandalism. If anything has changed about my stance on this in recent years, it is a significantly lower tolerance for trolling us. I do not think it is out-of-process to delete such stuff on sight, and if it is, then the process needs to be changed to make sure it happens.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Having had time now to review the particular case, it seems clear to me that the user in question was trolling.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Above Jimbo says: "These kinds of images have zero encyclopedic value." Wikimedia Commons is a media file repository making available public domain and freely-licensed educational media content (images, sound and video clips) to all. It is not limited to images with encyclopedic value. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Welcome. See http://libres.curtin.edu.au/LIBRE11N2/crook.htm for what erotic media that professional librarians consider appropriate for public libraries. I do not believe Jimbo is a professional librarian nor does he sometimes appear to understand that Wikia is not "the rest of the library"; the rest of WikiMedia is. But perhaps he does realize this and his comment was merely a regrettable error. We all make mistakes. With Jimbo's high visibility and people's constant efforts to have him tell them what to do, his off the cuff remarks sometimes carry more weight than they should. I guess this is just a case of an off the cuff remark, sensibly ignored. WAS 4.250 ( talk) 13:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
There has been a lot of discussion concerning the use of ip's on Wikipedia. The amount of vandalism by ip's must take up 90% of the reverts that good editors have to deal with. The question I ask is, is there somewhere the community can discuss this, will it make a difference discussing it, and if there is a majority of editors who agree that everyone should create an account can it be implemented? Jack forbes ( talk) 01:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia Administrator, I tried to move Srebrenica Massacre article to Srebrenica Genocide. However, I got automatically generated message that the name already exist. True, it does exist, but the main article is located at Srebrenica Massacre page, and I wanted it to appear at Srebrenica Genocide. The system message said that administrator can do it. As you know, Srebrenica genocide was not merely a massacre. It was a genocide. This was confirmed by the highest UN Courts, namely the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at the Hague and the International Court of Justice, known as the World Court. Dear Administrator, would you please be so kind to move the page to Srebrenica Genocide, so the content and discussion page appears at Srebrenica Genocide location? Please respond, and thank you. Bosniak ( talk) 06:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
So you met Stephen Fry a while ago? Did you know who he was or did you Google him?! The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There are two well known parodies to Wikipedia: Uncylopedia and Dramitca. My question is how to they get the MediaWiki engine? And, why if you type [[Uncyclopedia:the name of an article on Uncyclopedia]], the link works? Does it have to do with their use of the MediaWiki engine? Or is this something the developers did that they thought would be funny? -- Ipatrol ( talk) 14:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo - I had a question. Do you kick yourself for not having figured a way to make billions from Wikipedia like those Google Guys? I mean, did you just kind of sleep-walk into giving it away as the project took on a life of its own and became the standard-bearer almost for this whole community-orientated Web 2.0 movement? I mean, you would have been slated probably more than any other man on the Internet (perhaps the world!) if you had commercialised it once the horse had bolted right? I'm sure you're a wealthy man but think about (literally) the Billions you could have made if you had....in fact to sum up this question - do you ever think about those lost Billions Jimbo?
Thanks for your time. I'm honestly interested from a psychological standpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.28.127 ( talk) 00:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm extremely proud of Wikipedia as it is, and wouldn't change a thing. This is historic. -- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
You have made a very good website, but please don't allow random IPs to edit. Registration should be mandatory. 59.95.114.118 ( talk) 07:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I think that is the same guy ( 59.95.114.118) who posted message in my talk page? -- Googlean Results 07:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Both Googlean and the IP have a history of sockpuppeting. YellowMonkey ( click here to choose Australia's next top model) 05:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you personally think this is a good article, Jimbo Wales? It is a candidate for Good Article class and has been put "on hold" by it's reviewer. Do you think it is fit for that class now? -The Bold Guy- ( talk) 16:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much mr. Wales. I'll see what happens, if you say it is good enough I am pretty sure it must be. I'll just take a look at the sourcing. -The Bold Guy- ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello. In face of my recent efforts as translating articles from other wikipedias, currently Tenerife I would really find it useful if wikipedia had some programme for translating articles between wikipedias such as this. To be able to translate whole articles like google translation would be of enormous benefit, particularly if it is of a high quality and doesn't have too many mistranslations like some of the other translation engines. Google translation appears to be the best on the web but you can't transfer whole pages from it with having to sort out each sentence. Also it offers a wider translation of languages which would be of major use translating articles in real need of expansion from other wikipedias from parts of the world like Sweden, Norway, Japan, Vietnam etc. Given that you regularly state the desire for the world to have equal and free access to knowledge in their native language seemigly some sort of wiki-inter translation would probably serve other language wikipedias with evne more benefit than it would have for us if they in turn could translate some of our articles into English. I really think investing in a translation service which is the most accurate and successful on the web would enchance the wiki service and I know that many would find it of enormous benefit. If an article is enchanced using such a programme, then it could produce a tag which indicates it has been translated using that tool and needs proof reading for accuracy. If we had such a programme, the other wikipedias would develop at a greater rate and we also would see a far greater flow of knowledge of if we had the ability within the wiki site to transfer information. Our thousands of stubs on places in France, Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland for starters could be de stubbed within hours. Just think how other wikipedias could benefit, if Indonesian wikipedia for instance was permitted to transfer the whole Ming dynasty article into their native language.
I remember watching one of your videos which features people in the Arabic world emphasising how much they benefit from access to knowledge and the problems with finding information in their own language. For instance see this. If within the framework of the wiki software you gave people the chance to translate an article like Ulysses S. Grant into Arabic for example as here this would be a huge step towards sharing knowledge. Don't you think? Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 16:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, I notice growing user page vandalism in your page by anons and newly reg’d users. Why aren’t you or any admins protecting it? -- Googlean Results 04:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
hi, i have an account in wikipedia in spanish, i'm blocked 2 years ago (july 2006), i don't entry more in wikipedia from 2 years ago, i want now have that account. can you do something? sorry for my english, thank you ciao —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.7.156 ( talk) 22:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo...I was looking over the admin noticeboard and came across discussion of the "keep" rationale in this AfD: [8]. What is your opinion on the comment made by the closing admin that "While yes, his article violates the BLP policy, there is no deadline and exception can be made"? That seems contrary to the way I understand WP:BLP, but then again I -am- a n00b admin and there's a good chance I'm being overly rigid here. Thanks for your input...nice place you've got here. Gladys J Cortez 00:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Wales. I recently came across Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ginger Jolie. She is a former "Penthouse Pet" who is trying to get her article removed and get on with her life. The general tone of the AfD discussion is against deletion. To me the whole thing seems kind of ugly and I think it has the possibility of turning into a problem for WP's public image. Especially when the issue, and Ms Jolie's notability, are so minor. Steve Dufour ( talk) 07:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I have just been watching a show on BBC 2 Television in the UK, "Stephen Fry in America" - great to finally see you "in real life" as it were. A wonderful interview. I will be speaking to the BBC and seeing if they would be kind enough to release a little copy of that for us to put up somewhere. It would be good for all the non-UK wikipedians who wouldn't necessarily have seen that show. Great job! Thor Malmjursson ( talk) 19:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Mmm not the first time Wales has been slated by wikipedia and Mr. "Wales" himself. How ironic. Wasn't it Jimbo who tactfully implied that Welsh wikipedia was pointless or unnecessary? Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 21:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jim, can you semi-protect Rugrats for me. The reason I ask is because for saftey reasons. Thanks, -- P.S. I Rock Wikipedia! ( talk) 20:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)DJ WikiBob
Hey Jimbo.
I saw you come by the election preparation page, and I was sorta hoping you'd chime in on the current discussion about requiring nominees to identify before the vote. I set out my reasoning in favor, and the proposal has support, but isn't unanimous and I'd like to see where you stand on the matter. It is very much a (Wikipedian) philosophical question, and your own opinion on the matter is likely to be influential. — Coren (talk) 22:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I was planning on CfD'ing this category, but the notice at the top says "This category is for administrative purposes, per Jimbo Wales. Do not nominate it for CfD; see Talk page for more details". I understand the rationale behind your two year old "keep" comment, and am all for enforcing BLP quite strictly, but my reasoning is this; we have Category:Living people, with 310,836 articles, with the sole purpose of making enforcement of BLP easier. We also have Category:Biography articles of living people, with 252,252 articles, also with the sole purpose of enforcing BLP. Since the second category is placed on the talk page of articles, we could remove the first one from the article page, since this category is intended for editors, not for readers (a cat with 300,000 articles is useless for readers). Do you agree that, since there are two massive categories for the same purpose, a discussion on removing one of them can now be had without endangering BLP? Fram ( talk) 12:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Please have someone reach out to these instructors. Better you or a Foundation member of staff than some random Wikipedia administrator, I think. Uncle G ( talk) 12:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Ello, Jimbo! Pleasure to talk with you! I seem to, rather inadvertantly, be getting into an edit war with an anonymous user (an IP). (S)he continues to delete factual information, and is claiming that it is false... I have warned him/her to stop his/her reverts, but (s)he will not stop... should I block him/her for vandalizing? The article is Tevin Campbell ([ history]). Here is his/her talk page, where I have warned him/her to stop. If you could follow with me on this on my talk page, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Mr. Old-Skool ( talk) 22:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo, can I interview you? -- 64.136.76.132 ( talk) 01:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
In reference to what you said here [9], why hasn't an overall governance committee or process ever been established for en.Wikipedia? You know, something like a configuration control board, to direct technical improvements, manage policy maintenance and changes, and implementing and supervising a process for making final decisions on content disputes? The fact that the "community" hasn't been able to get together to get flagged revisions implemented shows that we need some kind of elected governance willing and able to make some decisions for the rest of us. Cla68 ( talk) 23:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a bureacracy. It is neither politics, nor an adminstration in which politicians rule over others. Most people rightly have a freedom to edit where most people function as equals and have equal rights to discuss the best course of action by consensus as the "community" involves everyone rather than a panel of judges to do things in discretion. This is partly what wikipedia is about. Now some people may delude themselves that they become rulers by accepting adminship but the principal has always been clear from day one right? If there is a "higher power" of judges so to speak it makes general consensus highly inferior. Given the scope of wikipedia it is inevitable that disputes will arise on a daily basis as so many different people will have contrasting views on articles or policies. However much crap goes on at ANI and petty squabbles that some of us see from time to time, we have got where we have so far so something must be working if the overall result is what we have today compared to January 2001. Blofeld of SPECTRE ( talk) 01:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to commend you on creating this great website. Wikipedia is a great resource. The fact that anyone can edit is a blessing, but, sadly, also a curse. I hope to aid you and other positive editors as much as possible in combating vandalism.
Good hunting, ~RaveRaiser blessed this place with his holy gaze~ 01:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RaveRaiser ( talk • contribs)
Dear Jimmy Wales,
This is just to share a thought that I think essential.
While going through different Transnational Qualification Framework movements to write an article in Wikipedia, I thought it would be ideal if such efforts could be coordinated to a global level to achieve real Transnational Qualifications Framework. Then the educational institutions and educators all over the world will be able to collaborate effectively in the process of providing quality education to all.
I have added the article with mimimum details, I will be strengthening the article with more information shortly. Please make TQF issue live in discussions, if you think it appropriate.
Warm regards Anil ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me how to make a user sub-page? Can any user make one, or just admin? Mr. Old-Skool ( talk) 22:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm talking to JIMBO WALES???? 1!!!!1oneone!!111 77.97.224.20 ( talk) 11:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ? Thanks ARP Apovolot ( talk) 22:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I've made a proposal to clarify the policy here. Since you have previously expressed your opinion on the suitability of Joe the plumber as an encyclopedic topic, this is a notification for your input on the proposed policy clarification. VG ☎ 11:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
It sounds like a move in the right direction. The one thing I would caution against is using US law as the guideline, if this would give people the idea that BLP only means "not breaking US law". Our BLP can be and should be much stricter than libel law - my view of what constitutes a good biography goes far beyond simply "not libeling someone". At the same time, I think that the law does contain a great deal of well-thought-out distinctions that we can use to inform our understanding, and I believe that introducing into our rules a notion of "limited public figure" will prove to be useful and helpful for the reasons you have outlined.
I am not contradicting (not intentionally anyway) what Mike Godwin said, but I'm concerned that it might be misinterpreted. I think he's saying that "Statement A is libel in the US, but not libel in country Z, so we can say it in Wikipedia" is something the Foundation would oppose. I don't think the Foundation has any objections (at least I hope not!) to us adopting a much higher standard than "it is legal in the US" for our editorial judgments about what is appopriate within Wikipedia. We might choose, and with good reason, to obey not only US libel law but also UK libel law. We might also choose, and with good reason, to ignore some aspects of non-US law insofar as they would interfere with our encyclopedic, humanitarian, NPOV mission. And all that is within the realm of our community editorial judgment.
I should add: I read over the proposal and the discussion of it only briefly; I am not taking sides on any of the discussions underway there. I'm just handwaving to generally say, this looks like a sensible possibility.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 23:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Jimmy, what is the proper way to write articles on works of satire and parody in which the cultural references they make are so obvious, but at the same time, not sourced, specifically when writing episodes of South Park? While some interpretation is subjective, and should be removed, other bits are so obvious that to not make mention of them would be ignoring the intent of the creators of the work. Specifically, there is an edit conflict on the Pandemic (South Park) article over this material. The parodies of Cloverfield and The Blair Witch Project in the episode are OBVIOUS. Do we really need a cite to establish what is clearly intended by the creators? How are we supposed to write about satire/parody when creators of such works generally do not explicitly tell us "Oh, here's where we were satirizing that movie...", and "Over here is where we were parodying that TV show...." Moreover, User:Alastairward keeps removing the Cloverfield references, even though that is referenced. Please advise. Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 16:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a strong opinion about this, other than to say that I personally think there's a ton of inappropriate original research in articles of that type, and that I'm not personally inclined to get involved at all.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 23:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So then what are those of us disagreeing over it supposed to do? Nightscream ( talk) 01:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been recently dealing with some newbies who insert personal analysis and/or point-of-view info about a certain actor or actress, like in Sarah Geronimo. I know that fanboyism is prevalent in Philippine cinema and popular culture, and some newbies are unwittingly taking their obsession with them when they edit an article. You said that there are a lot of inappropriate original research and unnecessary trivia about such stuff, but I have a somewhat hard time dealing with such situations, especially with those die-hard fans. What do you think about this? God Bless and have a nice day... Blake Gripling ( talk) 01:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a policing function in which breaches in policy are investigated and prosecuted; or primarily having a dispute resolution function where interpersonal disputes are investigated and appropriate remedies applied? Martintg ( talk) 02:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a dispute resolution function. However, I think that the ArbCom can and should take whatever actions are wise to ensure the smooth functioning of Wikipedia. As a trusted group of users with deep experience, I think they can and should sometimes take on some investigative roles and enforcement roles.
In my experience, when people ask questions like yours, they are usually not so much asking about the general philosophical or constitutional question, but rather expressing a concern about a specific case. Did you have something in mind?-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 22:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Jimmy I have the concern that generally in disputed articles, including dabs, when they reach a stable and universally accepted state, the editors who used to watch them stop (because of the stability reached) and new ones unaware of the many reached unanimities and accepted consensus, edit and bring back old problems falling into the same cycles of edits. and unless old editors become chronic constant watchdogs, the articles will be an amorphous mass of mediocre articles swaying around bad quality. i'm talking about the hotly disputed articles. i believe wiki is massively high in quality. does wiki have mechanisms against that? also have you noticed/taken action about the most disputed articles around here? like the Macedonian naming dispute/ Macedonian language naming dispute which reflects to many articles concerning Greeks, Macedonian Greeks, Bulgarians and Slav Macedonians CuteHappyBrute ( talk) 00:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't you have, like, a big red button that just shuts down all of Wikipedia (or some such disaster)?-- Koji † 21:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a current desire to change the design of the main page. Any thoughts anybody? Dr. Blofeld 22:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm admin of Wikias and I understand how hard it is when dealing with vandalism. IP address: 71.233.24.115 is causing vandalism here. It owuld be nice if this person would be blocked to prevent further vandals.-- ☆Tavis ource 06:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, for the past threefive years a user has consistently harassed me (from time to time) in the form of wiki-stalking. You may recall the case concerning
I am very tired of spending my time in keeping this person away from me. To date I have spent countless months gathering evidence case after case documenting the conduct of this user who has been engaged in abusive use of sockpuppets and was indef blocked many times.
Arbcom has not been able to come up with a workable solution and had actually been the very source of the problem. Right now they tell me that they are discussing weather or not to lift the indef ban the community enacted on Jack Merridew (aka User:Davenbelle aka User:Note to Cool Cat aka User:Moby Dick aka User:Diyarbakir). Jack Merridew's indef ban hasn't lasted a full year. I am all for giving people a second chance and this guy had way too many chances (over five chances by my count).
When Jack Merridew requests his ban to be reviewed, suddenly arbcom has time. When I request the remedy banning me from mediation (enacted in 2005 on the first stalking case), arbcom doesn't even bother to properly comment.
I would like you to get involved with this case as my frustration over the matter is beyond words. For the sake of everyones sanity I have prepared a graph of users edit pattern. Please do review it.
-- Cat chi? 21:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I have the intention of becoming a vandal fighter. I have yet to get certain privilages making that easier for me to do. Also, I have stumbled upon a hoax that has been floating around here for more then a year and had it deleted. Will you grant me rollback? J.B. ( talk) 10:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think that every article exceeding a certain size, especially those already having reached WP:GA status or even a higher status, and in particular those known to attract a considerable amount of vandalism because they treat subjects such as politics, religion, pseudoscience (or subjects dogged by pseudoscience), popular culture, celebrities, certain national histories, and such should be semi-protected point-blank. In large, established articles, experience says that the ratio of useful vs. vandal or otherwise unhelpful edits (sometimes difficult to spot) decreases to the extreme. The old argument that IPs contribute most substantial work (new text, as opposed to small corrections) in Wikipedia doesn't apply at this point anymore; only in small and stubbish articles in the growing/build-up phase do their contributions actually tend to be useful, and this is where new Wikipedians are recruited. I haven't ever seen an IP add a single, painstakingly researched source to a large article, or rework it from the ground. Wikipedia addiction starts with small edits, corrections and the build up of new and neglected, small articles, not mammoth projects.
I would gladly run the risk of missing out on a sporadic potentially useful IP edit for the maintenance work saved to detect and revert innumerable brainless junk edits (which also uselessly eat up space in the database, as part of the edit histories). It's a simple cost-benefit calculation. I know this is not going to happen in all likelihood, since it would undermine WP's pretence to be the "encyclopedia anyone can edit" even further, but it would be the logical thing to do. Presumably you agonise with this issue on a regular basis anyway.
Anyway, the implementation of flagged revisions/sighted versions would already be helpful.
On a personal note, I met you at the 21C3, but I can't expect that you remember me. :-) Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo - and thanks for engaging recently in the whole arbcom election thing - it'll no doubt move forward in a wiki way from here - it's a very good thing to have open discussion well ahead of time, in my book :-)
With that in mind, I wondered if you might share a few thoughts about your 'veto' type powers.... If there are users standing for election about whom sufficient concerns are held as to incline you to pass over their candidacy despite their performance in a community poll, would you consider letting them (and maybe the community?) know? Obviously new information could come to light at any time (this would also go for all sitting, and ex-arb.s I guess) but if you were to have present concerns to the point where you wouldn't be comfortable appointing User:Aaron Brenneman, User:Bishzilla, or indeed any of the editors from this fantastically handy guide to arbcom - I think it'd be great to try and clear that up ahead of vote counting.
...and finally - if I were to run, and poll strongly enough, would you have any objection to my serving on the committee? Privatemusings ( talk) 04:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I would be strongly disinclined to appoint anyone who has been reprimanded by the ArbCom less than a year ago for sockpuppeting and inappropriate BLP editing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 15:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
It does raise an interesting question. Is the role of the Arbcom to support Jimbo, the current Arbs, and the Arbs Emeritus, or is the job of the Arbcom to support the community and encyclopedia? In the terms presented by Jimbo above, these are mutually exclusive things. rootology ( C)( T) 06:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I just want to echo the concerns raised above. Jimbo is now moving the goalposts in a subtle way: in the past, he justified having himself as a check on the community's will by saying that he would only skip over an appropriately placed candidate under extremely unlikely circumstances involving the election of an obviously unsuited candidate; he claimed this was about as likely as the British monarch stepping into British politics, "one last safety valve for our values". Now he's saying that he wouldn't appoint anyone who didn't have the approval of the existing ArbCom and former arbitrators—a situation not unlike having the Queen say she wouldn't appoint a Prime Minister who wasn't endorsed by the party already in power. Is it reasonable to think that the arbitrators would approve anyone who they had previously sanctioned? Would they approve anyone who spoke actively in opposition to current ArbCom practices and decisions? Everyking ( talk) 07:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
SlimVirgin raises some stellar points. Arbitrators should not have a veto over the community's picks precisely because the community might wish to select a new crop of people with diverging ideas. More than once this year, Newyrokbrad has remarked that he's never seen so many established users upset with the process. NYB is a veteran clerk and arbitrator, and I think his observations are reliable. It's a true nadir for ArbCom, and future appointees might necessarily be at odds with the current members.
If you don't mean that arbitrators and emeritus arbitrators have a veto, please clarify your thoughts.
Incidentally, the terms of arbitrators ought to be shorter. I'm not the first to say this (and SlimVirgin makes a compelling case above). Very few arbitrators have ever served the whole term anyway, and even those arbitrators needed vacations. More importantly, shorter terms helps ensure that the community will not be governed by unresponsive and inactive arbitrators. Cool Hand Luke 21:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
To clarify one point, if a concern arises, arbitrators are experienced at looking at editors who are under consideration for privacy related access. If Jimbo wants a second opinion whether there is likely to be any issue with the community's wishes, that the community may not know or may have under-rated, or the like, that is the point he may ask advice. The role of Arbcom would very much be "if needed for input, ask". Arbitrators are not being asked to make the decision, and that is a role I would utterly reject if presented. But to collaborate in helping, as seasoned experienced users all of whom have held that role for a year or more, that's fair. If Jimbo does wish to ask impressions from individuals how they think a certain choice stands, then like any time we're approached to give advice and input by anyone in the community, the inquirer is likely to get honest answers how people there may see it.
I'm fairly sure Jimbo will ask users outside Arbcom too. If he didn't ask Arbcom then he'd ask people he trusted, many of whom incidentally may be arbitrators. Any user in the community who is making a decision, may ask around those they trust, to inquire what they may think. But in none of these scenarios is Arbcom in any way choosing its successors. Rather, Jimbo is soliciting input from any users he may wish to, on a decision that he will make. While the election may indicate who is likely to be a good choice for the community, it's a blunt tool for making a final choice of 6 out of 10. The final order may ultimately depend on a non-issue, such as a couple of personal-grudge opposes, or a slight stacked pro/anti vote, exactly as at any other vote. Asking others for input to help validate whether the community's choice is truly a good one, is a sane measure, and whether or not Jimbo asks Arbcom for input, I would expect him to probably ask others. The aim, like CheckUser, is to appoint the users most likely to be the best, not just the most popular. We're used to being asked consultative questions, by administrators and the community, and its a role we help with if requested. FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Just to second, what Giano has said above. I note, Jimbo, your own post here where you say "I have in fact voluntarily agreed to limitations of my power, and I will do so more and more over time". No comment on the first part, but on the second part you seem to indicate your own realization of that the "community has matured and now wants to run its own affairs", as Giano notes above. Besides, this is what every other language wikipedia does. And note, that the en-wiki is by far the most mature community of all of them. I think that the time to "do so more and more over time" has long since come, but perhaps you disagree with my assessment? Do you have any timetable of your own in mind? Also, why do you think en-wiki needs your guidance while other wikis, certainly less mature than enwiki overall, run well without it? -- Irpen 18:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
On the same theme as the above, and a slightly different angle. if Jimbo did give up his traditional role, what exactly would be proposed as a check or balance, in the event that the community itself went off the rails over time?
There is a very serious question here. The community is made up of many thousands of users. It has an impetus all of its own. It can sweep internal opposition to bad ideas aside and convince itself bad ideas are good or necessary ones. It changes over time. It is - like all societies - capable of choosing over time, directions and "politics" that diverge from its core roots and goals, and it is capable of fooling itself that it is on track if it does so. "People will know" has never stopped undesirable social change in any other society, and I see zero reason to believe that "people will know" would stop this one going sideways either. Right now, there is one outside safeguard against that: Jimbo. Not WMF, not "editors who care" (people who know what's right have never been able to withstand gradual social change for the worse anywhere else). The community needs to recognize its role a bit here.
It is (and we are) a tool, a device to create an encyclopedia. It is not the focus or the aim of "Wikipedia", and it isn't here to make a society, a democracy, or any other social structure, other than such social structure as is best suited for content creation and maintenance. Does a structure intended to meet that goal need a check or balance to pure self-guided community power wherever that may lead? Obviously yes.
I'd be interested if the community did start to slip sideways - for example subtle changes to its norms started to take hold that might over time undermine its goals - if there came a time the community was answerable to nobody, had no reins, no check or balance, was subject only to the choices of those who could most shout or be effective demagogues in their little turf... who exactly would have the ability to say effectively "this isn't okay"?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 10:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
FT2 posed a rhetorical question above: what if the community were left on its own, with no leader, answerable to nobody? I agree with him that it would devolve very quickly into chaos. However, I'm not suggesting that the community be left on its own, or with no leader, or answerable to nobody. I simply don't think that Jimbo should be the person to lead the community or be the person the community is answerable to simply because of tradition.
FT2 also raised another point: isn't it a good thing to have somebody outside the community have the final approval of our Committee members, in case we (the community) go crazy? With this, I disagree. What if Jimbo goes crazy, so to speak? We have no action of recourse other than a direct social fork of the project, since Jimbo is the Person in Charge. This point of view seems to be based on the assumption that Jimbo is somehow more stable than the community as a whole.
In fact, nearly all arguments for having Jimbo retain his "position" make the assumption that Jimbo is somehow more stable, or somehow more honest, or somehow better than the community as a whole. I see little thought given to the theoretical situations where, for example, Jimbo is the person going off the rails or changing the goalposts or Jimbo is the person making the wrong decision. There's a big assumption of good faith here, but I am reluctant to blindly assume good faith when a project of this size is at stake. Looking at Jimbo's history on this project, I feel distinctly uneasy.
Rhetorically I ask myself, what would happen if Jimbo did approve a candidate with no community support? I suppose there'd be a large song and dance, but we, the community, would probably calm down after a while. And, even if we didn't, what could we do? Nothing on this project, because Jimbo is the big man in charge here.
To ensure the stability of goals is the function of a virtually unchangeable constitutional document, not of a human leader. For a long time, I've wished Wikipedia had a constitution that outlined its fundamental goals and the fundamental rights and responsibilities of its community of contributors. Perhaps this is the time to develop and maintain a constitution. We cannot really rely on any human leaders, or group of the same, to consistently steer the community and the project towards the same goalposts.
The constitution of too many people around here, seemingly including Jimbo, is ignore all rules. Unfortunately, ignore all rules is extremely vague, subject to subjective interpretation, inconsistent over various situations, and assuming of consistent goodwill of all contributors. Not that I want to start a debate over ignore all rules just now, but in itself it is no sensible constitution.
Finally, bringing me back to what started this entire debate thing off, I don't feel that you, Jimbo, need to approve Committee members. Other Wikipedias have Arbitration Committees, and they cope very well without your approving their members. Particularly, I am very uncomfortable with your repeatedly ignoring my requests for clarification on the limits of your powers. – Thomas H. Larsen 22:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm Dylan, a Wikipedian who has been purely active for two months and counting. I must commend you for founding what is now my favorite website. I have become engaged in numerous events on Wikipedia, which include:
And yet I still have a large amount of time on my hands. I guess I should stop now. See you later!
P.S.: Have you ever thought about increasing your own article to featured status? --Dylan620 ( Home • yadda yadda yadda • Ooooohh!) 16:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello! I'm not sure where to put this, but I noticed the very first contributions of administrators Tannin ( first edits), Camembert ( first edits) and Mintguy ( first edits). Their first edit summaries contained (Moved to "[insert title here]") and they both made their first edit at the exact same time, which was 08:43, 25 February 2002. Could they be legitimate sockpuppets? SchfiftyThree (talk!) 21:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo, I was wondering if there was a site that could be created to direct debates about article topics to. There's already a lot of Wikipedia sites, so I think there should be a Wikidebate site.
Hi there Jimbo. I'm a relatively new user who came to Wikipedia to do a bit of reading and tried to make a few corrections. My experiences here have been deeply troubling. Any and all dissent seems to be stifled aggresively. But I thought maybe if someone drew the problem to your attention you might be able to offer a suggestion or some encouragement. I'm one of the many frustrated well intentioned people who's been harassed, intimidated and attacked for trying to improve the encyclopedia. I almost called it your encyclopedia. :) Well, let me know if you want any details or specifics on my concerns, experiences or problems here. It's an amazing resource to be sure. But it's problems are creating enormous tension and dissention, much of it unnecessary in my opinion. Don't leave me out in Sherwood Forest (to use the words of another hero of the avergae Joe). I don't want to be a Robin Hood. I just want to edit some articles and work cooperatively with others. BobDysart ( talk) 00:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I saw your note on the talk page and removed the unsourced personal information. The rest is uncontroversial factual information and there is definitely an assertion of importance so not a speedy. You mention page blanking which isn't the right way to do this. If the article needs to go due to BLP concerns the right thing to do is to speedy it and put it up for deletion review but in this case there really isn't anything left in the article that would violate WP:BLP. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 07:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
A one line stub linking to the big ass show would have been appropriate but she is too notable not to be mentioned, or for that matter to have the article speedied, she is far more well known than the articles for countless blp subjects. I have re-written the article as a stub which sources its claims. Thanks, SqueakBox 14:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I thought you'd be interested in and might like to comment on the above. RMHED ( talk) 21:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear Jim, Astrosociology is the study of the effect of outer space on human behaviour in outer space or other. It is largely uncovered as one may expect but has a few books, a few sections in old NASA reference books, and gains a few thousand hits on a search as a term of sorts. The Wikipedia article about the subject has been deleted as a non notable topic. I don't think this is a discussion you would involve in but it may be interesting to see what is or not currently notable on the wiki (lol). ~ R. T. G 16:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok - travelling to Brussels tonight to give this talk having said which my identity should be obvious. In case any confusion, this thread refers. All the best Jimbo. Americanlinguist ( talk) 22:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole concept of blocking and banning is an anachronistic tribal practice that not only predates the advent of the Rule of Law, it's the very subject of the first three laws ever carved onto stone tablets, some 3750 years ago...
These are the first three laws, in their entirety, of the Code of Hammurabi, translated into English:
- 1. If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.
- 2. If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.
- 3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.
The second law seems bizarre by modern standards. It appears to be the source of the dismissive phrase, "Go jump in the lake." (Compare to the Yiddish expression, Nem zich a vaneh! "Go take a bath! Go jump in the lake!")
There are 282 such laws in the Code of Hammurabi, each no more than a sentence or two. The 282 laws are bracketed by a pukeworthy Prologue in which Hammurabi introduces himself, and a narcissistic Epilogue in which he affirms his authority and sets forth his hopes and prayers for his code of laws.
Note that Wikipedia is not even as evolved as Hammurabi, since Wikipedia does not even do the level of due process required of Hammurabi's first law.
Given that Wikipedia has adopted an anachronistic pre-Hammurabic tribalistic ochlocracy that does not even rise to the level of the Code of Hammurabi, is it any wonder that Wikipedia is the venue of recurring classic liminal social drama that reprises the oldest stories in the annals of human history?
Hammurabi's notion was to advise everyone to go jump in the lake when they are tainted with an unproven allegation.
I reckon the secular cultural practice of absolution through ablution inspired the Early Morning Baptisers of Qumran to co-opt Hammurabi's Remedy into the Mikvah Ritual Bath. Baptismal sin cleansing survives to this day in most Christian denominations.
Of course there was that interlude in the desert where there were no bodies of holy water, so Aaron devised an alternate ritual involving a delightful goat named Caprice. I am rather fond of Caprice, since her story inspired portions of the Passion of Christ.
I find it ironic that a site that purports to offer the sum of all human knowledge is still struggling to learn the oldest lessons in the annals of human history.
So I suggest people wash their hands of Jimbo's anachronistic cult of pre-Hammurabic tribalism, cleanse themselves of the grit by jumping in the lake, and evolving to a more modern and enlightened governance model along the lines suggested by such innovative pioneers as Moses, Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Maimonides, Thomas Becket, Stephen Langton, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas Gandhi, ML King, Thich Nhat Hanh, John Rawls, Father John Dear, Barak Obama, Kermit the Frog, and Barsoom Tork Associates.
Barsoom Tork 01:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.243.57 ( talk)
I'm shocked at the results of Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 November 6#Template:User en-gb-5. Is that really what Wikipedia is about? I had really thought this place was supposed to be a collegiate environment where I wouldn't need to deal with being insulted by people I don't know just because I'm an American. I was going to leave but I just wanted to make sure I hadn't lost my mind about the vision of this place. Mintrick ( talk) 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Annoy me once, shame on you. Annoy me twice, shame on me. Please at least provide a "dismiss" button so that dedicated volunteers are not constantly disoriented by the irritating fundraising banner that has been added to the top of all pages. Thank you. Geometry guy 10:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If you do not want the banner.Please go my preferences and Browsing gadgets and select Suppress display of the fundraiser site notice.Wikipedia is being run free and a great fashion without advertisement and which any user can contribute.If there is banner which can removed ,I wonder why people are objecting considering the fact that there is a provision to remove it and further despite being widely used.No advertisements are allowed unlike sites which have only a few visitors.The fact the provision to remove it in gadgets was done basically clearly shows that fact that even this only optional.We need to thankful for all running Wikipedia for doing it so efficiently. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 21:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Before I contribute, I was wondering Jimbo why we need $6 million. I thought it was $3 million. Could you please explain why this amount is needed? It seems rather higher than normal Count Blofeld 14:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Mr. Wales. Do you think that Wikimedia users' access histories are private, or do you think someday Wikimedia web logs can be sold or free for all, like edit histories are nowadays? The privacy policy is clear on this. The security note, however, wisely says that even now there are no guarantees. May I please quote your reply in an op-ed if I find a publisher (like this one on a related topic)? Best wishes. - SusanLesch ( talk) 22:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. I just wanted to say I enjoyed the conference you gave last Thursday at Universidad de Belgrano and looking forward to seeing you again at Wikimania next year. And the last thing, thanks for making Internet not suck! bcartolo ( talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ?
NB This discussion is also covered on User:Apovolot/Expert peer review page. Please note that I am suggesting "Expert peer review" feature only as optional one (conducted per request) - so I am not suggesting to abolish current practices but instead proposing to enhance those. I understand that no one wants to give up the feel of being empowered and to be in power ... I am not objecting to massive amateur volunteerism, on which Wikipedia was able to build upon so far - it is something to be admired indeed. I am not denying also that participating in Wikipedia in general first of all enhances the subject knowledge of the participants themselves (which is wonderful achievement on its own). It is also very interesting phenomena that Wikipedia "machine" has matured into classical bureaucracy with its own rules, its own authorities, it own "lingo" and its own resistance to further changes / enhancements, etc. However I am quite frankly "stunned" by the statements similar to those made by the User:Rtc, who claims that the scientific expertize, which is certified by the obtained scientific degrees, is not advantageous for editing encyclopedia's articles (those articles, which have the scientific context). Does such "claim" assumes that in general professional scientists get their scientific degrees without demonstratively proving their expert qualifications ? If to follow above claim deeper, why not to go "further" along this line of logic and state that professional scientists do not contribute into advance of science ? - If so, then who does ? ;-) May be the science (per User:Rtc ) is a fictional field altogether ? (;-)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apovolot ( talk • contribs) 00:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Apovolot ( talk) 00:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
User: Shotwell suggested (on my talk page) "I would endorse a WP:EXPERTADVICE page that outlined the wikipedia policies and goals for researchers in a way that enticed them to edit here in an appropriate fashion. Perhaps a well-maintained list of expert editors with institutional affiliation would facilitate this sort of highly informal review process. I don't think anyone would object to a well-maintained list of highly-qualified researchers with institutional affiliation (but then again, everyone seems to object to something)."
We could start with that if you would agree ... - could you help to push his idea through Wikipedia bureaucracy ? Cheers, Apovolot ( talk) 17:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps owner of this page together with other Wikipedia decision making participants will be willing to show flexibility and attempt to achieve reasonable compromised (re-)unification agreement (perhaps using some ideas from my proposal) with both Veropedia and Citizendium ? Such unification would put to an end useless dispersion of resources ! Apovolot ( talk) 16:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Exactly - and because of this, editors without confirmed expertise in the subject they are editing cannot be considered reliable. Those with such qualifications are neither inherently useful, nor "can be considered" reliable. I fully agree that many people with qualifications have something good to contribute and I am ready to accept that those without qualifications often write a lot of crap. But your claim that there is something inherently different between someone with qualifications and those without is simply wrong. Often, people with qualifications write nonsense, often they produce articles full of POV. On the other hand, people without qualifications do make useful contributions and sometimes even surpass the contributions of those with qualifications. It is thus wrong to say that editors with a degree are superior to those without. It is always individual contributions by individual authors that are superior to each other. A bad contribution does not become better because of the fact that it was written by someone who has a degree, and a good contribution does not become worse because of the fact that it was written by someone who has no degree.
If someone wishes to depict themselves as an authority on a given subject, the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate a sufficient understanding of the subject to be accepted as such, not on others to prove that they lack that understanding. The purpose of peer review is an objective one, not a subjective one, or put simply, it is about finding errors in articles, not about depicting oneself as an authority. Wikipedia is not about its authors, it is about its encyclopedia articles.
While individuals may very well be an authority, until such time as their knowledge has been proven they cannot be accepted as such. Why not? And do we need to accept anyone as an authority at all? Is it not the truth or falsity of what they say that matters, rather than who they are to say it?
Their contributions may be worthwhile, but this can only be determined by those with proven expertise on the subject in question, and unless and until such experts have examined each and every contribution made by non-experts, those contributions cannot be considered to be authoritive. Why not? And do we need to consider any contribution to be authoritative at all? Is it not the neutrality and accuracy of the contribution that matters, rather than the authority of the person who wrote it?
"Nor does it mean that if it has been found to be of a low standard in the past that it is still of a low standard." It does, however, further mitigate against the reliability of said editor. Clearly not, because someone who today has a high standard but has had a low standard yesterday is not expected to have a low standard tomorrow. And if he would be, it would certainly be no different for the one with a degree. Clearly, many of those with a degree had low standards sometime in the past. We are not born as little professors.
but those standards, and any improvement in them, can only be determined by those with proven knowledge of the subject in question - i.e. those with a degree or similar academic qualification. This argument is clearly invalid, because it contains an infinite regress (as all forms of justificationism do). It is also quite wrong. We do not need a degree or similar academic qualification to judge whether someone's contributions are good.
Let me illustrate my argument with a little passage from Plato's Meno:
Socrates now begins an apologetic defense of knowledge and claims that "knowledge is something more valuable than right opinion" (I disagree with him about that), but he stresses again that "true opinion when it governs any course of action produces as good a result as knowledge." "for practical purposes right opinion is no less useful than knowledge." -- rtc ( talk) 21:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Just wanted to notify you and everybody else who monitors this page that AOL ip addresses have been indefinitely blocked. I've used them to edit for 2 years. It would be nice to have edit privileges restored. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo! What will happen, if too less money is donated? Do we have to start (temporarily) a new project? :) Cheers, -- Yikrazuul ( talk) 16:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, About your travels around the world: Please don't forget about Tokyo! I am especially proud to say that you have actually visited my school (The American School in Japan), so please put some pictures in if you can! Thank you! Nihonshoku ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC).
Could you please please prove your innocence to article, second to last paragraph? It's not that I don't trust you, but it's kinda disturbing. Leujohn ( talk, How did I do?) 05:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I recently responded to User:RetroS1mone, who deleted a post by User: 80.237.191.141 from Talk:AIDS denialism, because, according to Simone, it consisted of " libellous remarks". I reverted the deletion, since WP is not censored, and the nature of the post's reliability is something that should be discussed. Another editor, User:SheffieldSteel even went so far as to edit 80.237.191.141's post, which seems to me to be grossly inappropriate. The ensuing discussion is here on Simone's Talk Page and here on mine. S1mone cites WP:BLP, which says "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." I pointed out to S1mone WP:Censor, which states that "content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed", and that to my knowledge, the post in question was not so judged, in Florida, or elsewhere. My position is that it is better to refute disputed material with one's counterarguments, rather than to have one editor make the unilateral declaration that material is poorly sourced or libelous, and indeed, other editors indeed refuted 80.237.191.141's post. The problem is that 80.237.191.141's post is still deleted, but responses to it are still there, and it has now been archived, which makes absolutely no sense. How can you archive a discussion for future readers if the original post that started it has been censored? I can't understand why WP policy would call for unsourced or poorly sourced material to be removed from Talk Pages, at least before a determination of source reliability has been made. Can you explain why WP:BLP says this about Talk Pages, and what the proper interpretation of this is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightscream ( talk • contribs)
See, this goes directly to the problem I perceive with this: Who gets to make the determination that a post is a "ranting agenda" or "attack", and how, if not by a collaborative discussion? If it can be established to be an attack, then why can others not be privy to the manner in which it was determined to be such in an open and transparent process? When someone is judged to have libeled or slandered in court, they don't go back and cut out the instance from all the extant newspapers or video clips; it is simply understood that that act remains a part of the public record, and that the judgment will be part of the record too. Jimbo, you say that you would delete the post, and resummarize it. Why? Why not let observers see the uncensored act so they can judge both it and the refutations of it? I also notice that you close your suggestion with a hypothetical question put to the public regarding the Janine Roberts book (which is what the editor mentioned, and not a website). But if you admit that you're not familiar with the book, how then can you conclude that the post is a ranting attack without substance? Shouldn't the info in the book be reviewed for verification purposes before such a determination is made? Nightscream ( talk) 16:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
"I didn't conclude that the book is a ranting attack without substance. And what people should do is refactor, including a note that indicates what happened, and I did not suggest deletion of the revision (so that only admins could see it) nor oversight (so no one could see it). I just suggested editing and refactoring it and explaining what happened." The problems I describe here are not predicated on the idea that wiki talk pages are message boards, nor did I indicate or imply otherwise. They are predicated on the idea that if unless a posting is deliberate vandalism, intelligible gibberish, or an assertion for which the editor doesn't mention a source that even remotely seems valid or in good faith (which would make deletion reasonable), and is instead something that can be refuted on the basis of evidence and reason, that the posting should remain intact, and followed by that refutation.
I never said that you concluded anything about the book in question or that the “revision” be deleted. Those are your words, not mine. You did however, make a certain statement, and that is the only one I responded to. You said that “Wikipedia is not a place for people with ranting agendas to come and smear people they don't like”, and I asked, who gets to decide whether a talk page post is a “ranting agenda” or “smear”, what criteria are prescribed to make this determination, and how will others validate that those proper criteria were employed if the original post has been mutilated or censored with what you call “refactoring”? Again, what is wrong with leaving it the way it is, so that others can see what the original post was, and then the basis on which those who responded debunked it? You don’t think that editing another person’s comments AND responding to in order to refute it comes across as not only redundant overkill, but a rather Orwellian bit of censorship? By editing another person’s posts, and then responding to it, you’re changing the original, intended meaning of the post, and giving a false context to the responses that follow it.
In addition, why refer to the editing of a post by someone other than its author with a five dollar euphemism like “refactor”? That word doesn’t appear at dictionary.com, in my MS Word’s dictionary, or in the American Heritage Dictionary, nor could I find a pertinent usage for “factor” in those sources. Using an obscure euphemism to describe something that is more easily described by a more common term like “edit” or “re-edit” seems just as Orwellian as the editing of the post itself.
As for your statement “I just suggested editing and refactoring it and explaining what happened”, this is contradicted by the fact that you previously said “RetroS1mone did the right thing”. S1mone did not “edit and refactor it”. She deleted it.
“Anyone who needs to see it can go into the history, and if someone feels that the original removal was too hasty, it can be brought back. This is a wiki, not a message board, and that's what transparency means in a wiki - the history is there. I think it is a bit odd for you to suggest that this is "censorship" or that it is a removal of anything "from the public record".” It is indeed a form of censorship, because you are making it harder for an observer, especially a future one, to read the original post. When someone reads the Talk Page, either in its current form, or even when it is eventually archived, they can read the original post and the responses that followed it, in a natural context. But people are less inclined to click on the History when doing so, especially since most may be unacquainted with the practice of having a discussion thread follow a deleted or edited post.
In addition, two different posts by User: 80.237.191.141 were so edited. What is a reader supposed to do, have three different windows/tabs open, one with the current or most recent version of the thread, and then two others in which the reader slogged through the page’s history to see the original versions of the two edited posts? Wouldn’t it be just plain easier to keep the post intact?
Let me ask you this: First, what is the harm in keeping the original post intact? Now once you have the answer to that in mind, let me ask you a follow-up: In what way is that harmful quantity not present in the version of the post that is still visible in the History section? Why does the former provide some problem that is not present in the latter?
Also, wouldn't it be education to leave the full, contextual discussion intact for a future editor, perhaps an AIDS denialist, who may want to add material based on the same sources? If they want to know why info from so-and-such-book or so-can-such-interview is not admissable, they might more easily see that discussion and have it answered for them, giving the discussion a greater educational value for future editors. Removing all references to the sources, makes this less likely, even if you leave History links in, since an editor may try doing a Page Find by the title or author, and not look for the link text.
“I hate to sound too academic, but I am of two minds on this subject…” J Readings, I actually like academic discussions, but you’re talking about material added to an article. We’re talking about discussion on a Talk Page. Talk Pages should be a more open and lenient environment in which people, including dissenters, should be able to present an idea, complaint or argument, and which people respond to that idea on the basis of empirical criteria that are explicitly given. User: 80.237.191.141 made an assertion that he/she attributed to two sources. Instead of explaining why those sources were unacceptable, it was deleted, then edited by someone else after it was restored, and then deleted again, and then followed by a thread that did failed to explain why the source was unreliable, or provide sources that it was self-published—which has still not been provided. When I read and issue of Skeptic or Skeptical Inquirer, the columnists do not distort or re-edit quotes by a fringe idea supporter. Doing so presents the danger of making a Straw Man argument. They respond to the assertion in detail by explaining what’s wrong with it.
“Self published sources are not reliable, WP:SPS "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published then claim to be an expert in a certain field.” And not once in that discussion did you or SheffieldSteel establish that the post was sourced by a website or self-published book. In fact, neither of you even asserted this. What you instead said was that it was “unsourced” (not the same thing as “poorly sourced” or “self-sourced”), and that it was “defamatory”. User: 80.237.191.141 named two sources: A 1997 interview with Djamel Tahi Montagnier, and a book by Janine Roberts. Not once did anyone ask—or apparently get an opportunity to ask User: 80.237.191.141 the title, publication date or any other details about this interview or book. So how exactly do you know that it was self-published, and why did you not at least note this in the discussion?
“Self published book-self published website was used, to say a living person, is a fraud and a cheat and liar and forger.” The assertion was that Gallo “falsified documents”. The use of four different synonyms to describe this assertion is yours, and yours alone, and the temperament behind such a choice in language seems rather unnecessary and POV-ish.
“That is not acceptible so i deleted it.” And yet, Jimbo here has given contradictory information as to whether he finds this acceptable.
"On the question of "who gets to decide": this is a wiki. Who gets to decide is anyone who chooses to join the dialog!" I joined the dialogue.
I decided that the post should remain, and be debunked by the posts made in response to it.
Instead, it was repeatedly deleted or edited, and you upheld that this was acceptable (though you later indicated it was not). So please don’t say that anyone who joins chooses, because the reality is a bit more complex than this. What happened was that you upheld a unilateral deletion by one editor who did not (and still hasn’t) provided evidence that the sources were self-published, and suggested a protocol that makes it harder for future readers to see what was originally said. You did not uphold the restoration of the post by another editor. It’s one thing for anyone joining a discussion to voice their positions. It’s another for them to unilaterally delete a post without providing evidence that it violates policy.
This is my suggestion for when a Talk Page assertion should be deleted and when it should not be:
“ |
|
” |
In the first instance, the assertion was inflammatory, and a source was asserted that was clearly not valid. In the second, the source sounded like a valid one, so the discussion was kept provisionally open. In the third, the apparently valid source was shown to be false, and the entire discussion was deleted not only because the assertion was inflammatory, but judged to have no value to future readers. In the last, the assertion was rejected, but the discussion kept, because archiving it provides an explanation to future advocates of the same fringe theory as to why that source is unacceptable. Doesn't this seem reasonable? Nightscream ( talk) 00:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I already explained above what I see as the problem with your actions, and Jimbo's contradictory apparently comments about it. I do not favor any relaxation or change to policy, but a proper implementation of it. You did not establish that the material was libelous, potentially libelous, or self-published, but merely asserted that it was in an Edit Summary, something that anyone can do with material that they don't like. WP:RS does not claim that one can just declare by mere fiat that a source is unacceptable without explanation, or that "later" means "not at all", since you still have not explained how you know the material is self-published, or how its origin is "well-known". Nightscream ( talk) 02:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to report an anonymous user whose referenced edits did not correspond to the original source. I have detected seven cases of his abusing citations which can be divided into two types.
1. By altering deliberately the original source in favor of her/his purpose, her/his referenced edits are different from the contents of the original source. [12], [13](upper one), [14] [15](the lowerst one)
2. By adding reference, this user intended to support her/his faulty information, which is in fact not existent in the original source material at all. [16](lower one)
Basically, this user strongly tends to change, remove and correct her/his previous own edits by her/himself, so that the correctness and accuracy of her/his contributions cannot be guaranteed at all. So I have had to keep constantly an eye on the user, correcting her/his wrong edits. Despite my three times warning allowing plenty time (ca. 6 weeks) of self-correction, this user made no sincere reaction but just tried to cloud the main issue. S/he can not even realize the seriousness of her/his wrongdoing.
Considering her/his attempt to maintain false referenced edits despite my four times warning [17], [18], [19], [20] , this user should be blocked indefinitely from working on this article Goguryeo language in order to prevent her/his further possible distortions of the original source materials for the wrong purpose. Above all, her/his abuse of citations not only degrades the authority of Wikipedia, but also affects badly to the academic reputation of the author of the original source material. So this user should be blocked for her/his fabrication from editing Wikipedia. Jagello ( talk) 10:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, wenn Du Dich nicht bald um Deine verrottete deutsche Filiale kümmerst, dann wird Dir der Laden noch um die Ohren fliegen. Da wette ich 100 Dollar drauf. Und wenn Du schon mal dabei bist, dann schau Dir auch mal die dunklen Empfehlungen aus dem Chat für Adminposten an, - für Leute, die vielleicht mal einen oder zwei Artikel geschrieben haben. Und dann schau Dir auch mal die de:Inzucht unter den Admins an, die überhaupt noch nie gewählt wurden. Das lässt sich nicht mit der Entfernung von zwei, drei Leuten regeln. Da ist eine Grundsanierung fällig. Grüssle 78.49.85.78 ( talk) 14:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Ich lerne deutsch, aber mein deutsch ist noch sehr schlecht. Aber, mit dem Google-translate und eine Freunde von mir, ich glaube dass ich verstehe sich ein bisschen. I am learning German, but my German is still very bad. But, with Google translate and a friend of mine, I believe that I understand you a little bit. I will try to read the link you have sent me, but it will be difficult for me.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 11:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
{removed post of User:Thomas7, nothing as absurdity}
Hallo Jimbo, Guten Tag! Ich lerne auch ein bisschen Deutsch! Deutsch ist ja eine sehr nett Sprache; Alt Englisch ist auch (doch, traurig, fast niemand spricht Alt Englisch). Danke fuer die Wikipedia Seite. Gottistgut ( talk) 07:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)