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Sometimes it makes me want to scream how many people seem so mistaken as to NPOV policy when it comes to what is WP:FRINGE. When we have a poll saying as high as 74% of the population believe something is true (including hundreds of very prominent people), you would think this would be an easy case. This is but one instance, sadly it isn't an isolated one. It seems like a lot of people treat WP:FRINGE as "If I think it is reasonable point of view then it is not fringe," but if "I don't believe it to be true at all it is therefore fringe." It really shouldn't matter what any WP editor thinks of the topic, it should be purely based on how many people hold this view. Also, another variant you see on questions of fact often on WP is "How does a majority of RS handle this fact? We must have the article follow the RS in expressing this like the RS do." I mean really? If ANY RS expresses a contrary view, this should be a red light that this is opinion and not fact and we shouldn't be following how most of the RS express it. Sadly that seems to escape a lot of editors. Makes me sad, but thank you for being here for me to vent to. - Obsidi ( talk) 00:57, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Astrology is the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial objects as a means of divining information about human affairs and terrestrial events....Contemporary Western astrology is often associated with systems of horoscopes that purport to explain aspects of a person's personality and predict significant events in their lives based on the positions of celestial objects; the majority of professional astrologers rely on such systems.It isn't until the end of the WP:LEAD that we say things like "has been shown to have no scientific validity" and "astrology is now recognized as pseudoscience." How many people would you say don't think astrology is a pseudoscience? Can you name any prominent living person who has the view that it is a science and not a pseudoscience? (I doubt it.) It is true in some ways that pure surveys cannot answer these questions, but that is also why we have the qualifier for prominent people, and even then it can be phrased in a neutral manner as to what is generally recognized (which even many of the people who disagree would say is true). - Obsidi ( talk) 02:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
You write: "If ANY RS expresses a contrary view, this should be a red light that this is opinion and not fact and we shouldn't be following how most of the RS express it."
Actually that is exactly what we are supposed to do. It's called WP:DUEWEIGHT. We are supposed to give more weight to "how most of the RS express it".
BTW, the fact that something is in a RS has no bearing on whether it's opinion or fact. Both appear in RS, and we document both.
You also express some frustration with fellow editors: "Just annoyed that a lot of editors seem to either not know the policies, not care about what they are, or interpret them vastly differently than I do." (1) AGF that we DO "know the policies". (2) Yes, many "interpret them vastly differently than [you] do." (3) You might do well to consider the possibility that you may be wrong. (Heck, we're all learning here!)
You believe in Trump's "deep state" conspiracy theory. That itself indicates something wrong with your thinking. That usually comes from getting ideas from unreliable sources. Stop sucking on that teat. Just because Trump pushes a conspiracy theory does not make it a fact. Don't believe it. The fact he says something should be a big red flag that it's likely untrue. Just because he fools lots of people does not make it true, or make those people anything less than fringe believers in his conspiracy theories.
Never forget that deception can become the dominant factor in a society, and the majority will believe lies. At the risk of triggering Godwin's law, look at history to see how this works. Autocrats, Pied Pipers, and Pinocchios can push unreliable and fringe sources until they end up dominating RS. Truth can (temporarily) lose out.
At Wikipedia we strongly resist this trend. Trump's war on RS must be resisted and not affect us. Unfortunately we have many editors who believe RS are fake news, and they get that idea from Trump. Being a diehard Trump supporter has serious consequences for editing here. It creates a serious CIR problem. If an editor can't vet sources, or they believe what Trump says about RS, they fail one of the most basic qualifications for editing here. Such fringe editors should stay away from controversial topics and just perform gnomish work on other articles. That way they won't create disruption and will still do some good. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 03:36, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Really we need like a flow chart or something to make this easier for people.
It really shouldn't matter what any WP editor thinks of the topic, it should be purely based on how many people hold this view.
If you think that, you fundamentally misunderstand
WP:NPOV. Not sure how many times
WP:NPOV has to state "reliable sources" for people to get that FRINGEness as with everything is determined by
"a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.". Maybe we do need a flow chart.
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
07:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
"If I think it is reasonable point of view then it is not fringe," but if "I don't believe it to be true at all it is therefore fringe."As I noted above, we do also have the qualifier then that such a non-fringe view (ie not a view only held by an extremely small number of people) should then easily be able to name prominent people that hold that view. And of course that view must be published in a reliable source for inclusion. But as long as a reliable source publishes such a view (not held by an extremely small number of people) by such a prominent individual, that is a minority viewpoint and not fringe. Now that view might be given very little weight if it is a small minority view compared to a much more prominent in RS majority view, but it is still not fringe then. - Obsidi ( talk) 08:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
From his just published last column
"There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet."
Jimbo, what presence does Wikipedia have in Saudi Arabia? Nocturnalnow ( talk) 03:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
After thinking about Jimbo's(your) comments I am now wondering whether this entire event has been a False flag operation; exactly fitting our first sentence in our False flag article: A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility.
Its almost impossible to ever prove a false flag but they are often similar in their makeup. One of the similarities is often "timing", in this case it might be this.
Since I'm so old, I have seen a number of these powerful false flags which often relate directly to President Eisenhower's farewell address, here in video, warning to Americans about the danger of having created a Military–industrial complex after WW2.
One specific example of the many beneficiaries of wars and conflicts might be addressed in this Village Voice article, written less than a month after 9/11.
A more recent example of the Military–industrial complex, which Eisenhower warned us about, flexing its muscles, could be the immediate and fierce resistance that exploded when Trump began talking about making friends with Russia, and the whole "Russian collusion" theory might possibly be a false flag created to protect the status quo political and financial benefits and profits flowing to some who want an adversarial/"enemy" relationship to continue between the West and Russia.
This immediate and current horrible event might be almost a reuse of the same template...seeing a trend away from an adversarial relationship between Saudi Arabia and the West, the evil establishment monsters, on the Saudi side, who thrive on political and military, and in this case, religious, conflict, simply came up with a creative way to throw a huge monkey wrench into the progress Jimbo alludes to.
In other words, the bad guys' objective was/is exactly what has occurred. The objective was to get caught, knowing (it would not take a rocket scientist) what the ramifications of getting caught would be..exactly what is happening right now.
One thing is a fact, an undeniable and universally agreed upon fact, there is a hellova lot of money and power accumulated by many people, especially insiders, from military and political conflict and animosity. Nocturnalnow ( talk) 15:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy. I know your views on biographies, it's my understanding that the core of WP:BLP applies across all projects, mandated by the Foundation, am I right on this? I have a concern over random lists of attacks as "quotes about" in Wikiquote. I don't think this is appropriate for any politician, regardless of party affiliation. Spiteful commentary by people like Assange, who openly admits to hating her, does not seem to be appropriate, certainly not unless others have identified it as a notable statement. What's your view please? Guy ( Help!) 12:43, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Intentionally or knowingly posting content that constitutes libel or defamationor
With the intent to deceive, posting content that is false or inaccurate. - Obsidi ( talk) 23:44, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
When comparing sizes of hurricanes, there are some rare special cases, such as the fading Hurricane Sandy at New Jersey landfall on October 29, 2012, at 8:00pm EDT. [6] As noted by other editors, the shore winds of Hurricane Sandy were mostly tropical-storm force, but the southeast sector came ashore with windspeed 80 mph (130 km/h; 70 kn) around Atlantic City after 9 p.m. EDT, as technically bringing some sustained hurricane-force winds ashore during those hours. However that half-circle Sandy is very different from typical hurricanes where the hurricane-force winds come ashore hours before landfall with the eye of the storm. Hence, in the case of Superstorm Sandy, some people would have been able to evacuate in the lower winds, such as traveling north, for hours before landfall occurred in New Jersey, perhaps to avoid the shore storm tide of about 13.3 feet (4.1 m) that night. [7]
Hurricane Andrew re-formed in 2 days: Another rare storm was Hurricane Andrew, of late August 1992, which had weakened then re-intensified to Category 5 near Homestead AFB, Florida, on 24 Aug 1992 at 5:05 a.m. landfall, as almost no time to evacuate unless size is considered. A simulation of Andrew's eyewall noted: [8]
However, in many cases the size of a storm should be noted when making hurricane preparations. Perhaps WP pages could include circle-width graphs for each landfall location of a strong storm. More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't know where to ask this, so am asking here. What happened to the marker buttons on my watchlist? A while ago somebody changed the color coding I so appreciated to a solid or blank button. But now there's just a little dot in front of each entry and I can't tell which I've viewed and which I haven't. The top of the page announces, "Changes to pages since you last visited them are shown with solid markers," but that's not so on my watchlist. YoPienso ( talk) 12:47, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
It makes me very happy that there is a redirect WP:ITSTHURSDAY. I had not seen that before, it amuses me.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:46, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
One of the more aggressively promoted pieces of text on Wikipedia is WP:MEDRS, whereby medical articles are supposed to reflect only a very narrow range of accepted recent opinion. At the very core of that range are the Cochrane Reviews, a special super-correct source so reliable it has special exemptions, including from the usual arbitrary five year cutoff, built right in to the policy. And right at the center of the Cochrane reviews? Yup. We have a co-founder being expelled, which he says is because he was insufficiently friendly to the vaccine industry. Now mind, we're not talking about somebody pushing nonsense about autism and jade vaginal eggs, we're talking about someone who published a sensible critique in the British Medical Journal. Six board members voted to expel him, five against. Then four resigned in protest, issuing this statement.
I don't think we can stop the medical lobbyists from deleting inconvenient information around here under color of policy any more than we can keep a blatant ad from showing up on the Main Page every other day, but encyclopedists should stand advised that there is no magic source you can always trust ... ever. Wnt ( talk) 14:18, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I should point out that WP:MEDRS says simply "Cochrane Library reviews are generally of high quality and are routinely maintained even if their initial publication dates fall outside the 5-year window." (the 5-year window referring to the fact that a medical review article older than five years has probably been superseded). If individual editors are elevating Cochrane to some divine level of authority, then take the issue up with them. I must admit to being seriously disappointed with Cochrane on my own special interest topic, where the authors of their review were not experts in the field and made some quite naive and over simplified conclusions based on inadequate understanding of the problem domain. But that review (repeated with the same mistakes some years later by the same team) is just one example, and that of course isn't evidence of any fundamental issue, just makes one wise to the fact that it isn't perfect by any means. I do think some editors here over promote and over use review articles simply because they have internet access to them. They often are very narrowly focussed on treatment efficacy and neglect to read sufficiently widely and deeply on their topic to actually understand what they are writing about. As for the title of this section, well that's just trolling b******t of a Daily Mail level of unintelligent flatulence. -- Colin° Talk 07:46, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
"If you compare the risk of sitting versus the highest performing on the exercise test, the risk is about three times higher than smoking," Jaber explained." ""People who do not perform very well on a treadmill test," Jaber said, "have almost double the risk of people with kidney failure on dialysis.""
According to these folks. The accolades are nice but the important sentence is "We live in a moment when few people seem to agree on a shared reality." Wikipedia getting it right is more important than ever, now that the post-truth era has dawned. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 16:45, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello Jimbo Wales:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable
Halloween!
–
North America
1000
15:42, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
With all seven Reference desks and the talk page protected virtually continuously for the whole of October I have not been able to comment. Here's the discussion - what's your view?
In a same-sex marriage, who is the husband and who is the wife?
As we congratulate the royal newlyweds and wish them all happiness we still have the problem that Camilla and Charles are not married, for reasons explained here Special:Permalink/840529430#Repealing a repeal. Plans are being made for the first same-sex royal marriage. If the Camilla/Charles marriage were valid we might at some point see the Sovereign (who is Supreme Governor of the Church of England) give his or her wedding vows in a Roman Catholic church. We might also have a king and queen who are both of the same sex. If they are both female, would the partner of the one who was regnant have to be satisfied with the title "Prince Consort"? Note that before 1829 the only way Roman Catholics could lawfully marry was in Protestant churches. See "The King and the Catholics" by Antonia Fraser [10]. 92.8.223.143 ( talk) 10:29, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
And be it Enacted that this Act shall extend only to England, and shall not extend to the Marriage of any of the Royal Family.
As of 1 January 1950 the position was exactly the same - s.24 was bolstered by the Marriage Act 1949, s.79(5) which reads "Nothing in this Act shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." Just to remove any lingering doubt, in October 1955 Viscount Kilmuir, the Lord Chancellor, confirmed:
Marriages of members of the royal family are still not in the same position as marriages of other persons, for such marriages have always been expressly excluded from the statutes about marriage in England and Wales and marriage abroad and are therefore governed by the common law.
This means that in England and Wales, such a marriage can be validly celebrated only by a clergyman of the Church of England.
So are you suggesting the law has been changed, and if so what is the title of the relevant Act and when did it come into force? 92.23.53.164 ( talk) 12:12, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The Supreme Court recently ruled that legislation on civil partnerships was in breach of human rights. It did not rule that that fact made the legislation void. The only way to change the law is to pass another law. In the case of civil partnerships, the Government has said that that is what it is going to do, but until it does that a civil partnership between a man and a woman is void. In precisely the same way, register offices marriages by members of the royal family are void - and the government is not going to pass a law to legalise them. It did propose this in 2005 prior to the "marriage" of Camilla and Charles, but the Queen indicated her opposition and the proposal was dropped after a crisis meeting at Buckingham Palace between her and Dame Juliet Wheldon, head of the Government Legal Service. No Court has ruled that this marriage is legal - it is open to any interested party to make an application for the purpose.
The High Court is currently considering the legality of the Brexit referendum in a case brought by "UK in EU Challenge" [13]. In Scotland, the Inner House of the Court of Session has referred an application for a "declarator" to the European Court of Justice. Any proceedings in the High Court relating to the "marriage" would be brought by an application for a Declaration. Another group, Fair Vote, is crowdfunding a judicial review into Theresa May's refusal to hold a public inquiry on the referendum.
The only way that Camilla and Charles can marry in England is in a Church of England ceremony after the passing of Camilla's former husband. The royal website recently removed a statement that Camilla can be no more than Princess Consort. If the ceremony went ahead this would boost the economy and tourism. It would make it more likely that Camilla would eventually be crowned Queen. 92.23.53.243 ( talk) 12:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.230.249 ( talk)
The Original Barnstar | |
Thanks for founding Wikipedia for you and me! =) Huff slush7264 talk 21:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC) |
"WikiTribune, the ambitious community-driven newsbrand backed by Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, has restructured after confirming to The Drum the departure of its original 13 journalists. The title’s co-founder, Orit Kopel, has said that it will extend its pilot period while it hunts for a more 'community oriented' editorial team that will better work with contributors." [14]
I wouldn't read too much into this. Startups often make these sort of corrections as they discover what works and what doesn't. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, I came across this edit where an editor is declaring their conflict of interest. They are claiming to be hired by Google to write an article about a Google employee. What do you think of this? Peacock ( talk) 22:27, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, today I observed Balkan news and find maybe interesting matter for Wiki users/admins. relating to situation in Macedonia [16], namely Macedonian Parliament will vote for Constitutional amendments with two-thirds majority. What was stunning for me is that despite of the unanimous call of US and EU leaders it seams that Members of Macedonian Parliament will probably not reach 80 votes necessary for passage of amendments and the number of them is exactly as predicted by user Operahome two weeks ago, i.e. aprox. 75 Members of Macedonian Parliament. Looks Operahome arguments were relevant after all. Алфа БК ( talk) 11:08, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
178.222.115.231 ( talk) 22:42, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
178.223.37.146 ( talk) 00:41, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, once said:
So yes, we are biased towards science and biased against pseudoscience. We are biased towards astronomy, and biased against astrology. We are biased towards chemistry, and biased against alchemy. We are biased towards mathematics, and biased against numerology. We are biased towards cargo planes, and biased against cargo cults. We are biased towards crops, and biased against crop circles. We are biased towards laundry soap, and biased against laundry balls. We are biased towards water treatment, and biased against magnetic water treatment. We are biased towards electromagnetic fields, and biased against microlepton fields. We are biased towards evolution, and biased against creationism. We are biased towards medical treatments that have been shown to be effective in double-blind clinical trials, and biased against medical treatments that are based upon preying on the gullible. We are biased towards NASA astronauts, and biased against ancient astronauts. We are biased towards psychology, and biased against phrenology. We are biased towards Mendelian inheritance, and biased against Lysenkoism. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
(Redacted) -- David Tornheim ( talk) 21:52, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Nobody has disputed the claim that we have a civility problem.I am glad we agree on that.
Your argument boils down to "something has to be done. This is something. Therefore this must be done."No. I said no such thing. What do you think I feel must be done? I honestly think that the need to have that RfC is a joke. I do not believe that RfC is going to solve our civility problem no matter what the outcome is. That the answer to that question is not obvious and nearly unanimous simply shows how serious the civility problem is. This first step to solving a problem is recognizing it.
Again, the consensus at the RfC is against you. Do you have a theory as to why that might be?Yes. For all the reasons Snow Rise articulated here.
The question is what to do about it.What would you do about it? I'm open to ideas. I agree with Snow Rise's statement here. You seem to as well. I think one step is holding long-term editors accountable for incivility, rather than looking the other way. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 04:45, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I was just going through Some of Indian Films Articles, I just noticed about Tu Maza Jeev The page is written and portrayed in Advertising format, I was thinking to put Advert Tag but before out of curiosity thought to check logs, after scanning it, I have noticed User Tiven2240 is more concerned and interested in editing and keeping this article as he wrote! Looking at its edit pattern & logs, Its noticed that the Image had been deleted by 'CommonsDelinker Bot' previously, also this page has been Nominated for deletion twice . Also this page has been marked for {Notability},{POV},{Advert}, which has been reverted or deleted without explanation by Same user. It seems he have Rollback Rights and he is misusing same. After doing detailed research about film and IMDB link given in page I found, that his name is included in credits social media marketing manager. I have seen his edits, pages he working on, I think this user deserve to be Ban Immediately for Vandalism & such commercial interests and this page should be removed on top priority. I think it need to be verified and take action.( ErGopalVerma ( talk) 07:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC))
@ Softlavender: Thank you for notifying me about this. As read above this is another vandalism/personal attack made on me. This counts another one and I am facing a series of it on meta as well as on my home Wikipedia which is Marathi Wikipedia. This all comes connected to This SPI. The sockmaster is the director of Sorry (2017 film) and uses Wikipedia for his self promotion. You can even find his page Yogesh Gosavi on wiki. Whereas I have been stopping his motives on English as well as on Marathi Wikipedia. I even had deleted his promotional non notable film article on Marathi Wikipedia for which he seems to vandalise again here. He has been abusing me a lot since then and using IP addresses to abuse me. The editing pattern and many more gives me a feel that this is another sock of the sockmaster. DMacks and Bbb23 have always blocked these socks. This users accounts are even globally blocked by Stewards. Now the user is using ImDb for his vandalism. I will even notify Imdb about it. I have no connection with film industry and I am not even interested in it. As you can see the article history of the maza jeev I had created it well far before when I was a newcomer on English Wikipedia. Now I am well experienced enough and even members of global groups. This is a pure vandalism by sock and I am fed up by it. Jimbo I support your mission towards making a world where information is free and I have volunteered my best to fight vandalism on it and I will continue it. There may be many of them who make such allegations and I am now used to it. But I believe that all will be fine as you have been my inspiration. Thanking you. -- ✝iѵɛɳ२२४० †ลℓк †๏ мэ 10:50, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
In 2005 the Frequently Asked Questions section of the Prince of Wales' website included the following:
Will the Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
The answer (which on examination will be seen to be a non-answer) was:
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.
The question and answer were removed a few years ago and on 8 March (International Women's Day) a Clarence House spokeswoman insisted that the statement "has not changed". Press reports at the time suggested that Princes William and Harry may not allow Charles to make Camilla his Queen. This source [32] says "Camilla will effectively be Queen after Queen Elizabeth leaves the throne." This source [33] confirms that only legislation will stop Camilla becoming Queen and reports that Prince Charles' office insists that "Our position has always been that you become queen only by convention, not by statute, not by law." This led the Labour backbencher Andrew Mackinley to tell the Evening Standard:
The royals knew she would become queen but they wanted people to think that she wouldn't. Now the truth is finally out.
Prince Charles misled the country about the succession but did he also mislead the country about the validity of the marriage? David Pannick QC (as he then was), who went on to defeat the Government over Brexit in the Supreme Court, delivered this statement:
Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act added that nothing in that legislation "shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." The whole of the 1836 Act was then repealed by the Registration Services Act 1953. The problem is that there was in 1949 a custom (based on previous law) of members of the Royal Family only marrying in church. It is very doubtful that this custom has ceased to exist, and so Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act still prevents a civil ceremony. To avoid a royal flush of embarrassment, the Prince and Mrs Parker Bowles need to find an archbishop or a vicar, who is available at short notice.
A Parliamentary report cites a story in The Times of 22 February 2005 headed "Camilla calls a couple of justices and says, Let's oust him." In later editions this was replaced by a story that former Attorney-General Sir Nicholas Lyell said on the BBC programme PM that emergency legislation may be needed, otherwise the couple may have to marry in Scotland. On 27 February the Daily Telegraph reported that Downing Street had admitted that "no one could pronounce with any certainty on the likely outcome of any legal challenge". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.230.249 ( talk) 15:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
A senior Law Lord, Lord Pannick, who has a track record of being right when he disagrees with the Government, has stated that Camilla is not Duchess of Cornwall:
Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act added that nothing in that legislation "shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." The whole of the 1836 Act was then repealed by the Registration Services Act 1953. The problem is that there was in 1949 a custom (based on previous law) of members of the Royal Family only marrying in church. It is very doubtful that this custom has ceased to exist, and so Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act still prevents a civil ceremony. To avoid a royal flush of embarrassment, the Prince and Mrs Parker Bowles need to find an archbishop or a vicar, who is available at short notice.
He has been seconded by Stephen Cretney QC, Emeritus Fellow in Legal History at Oxford University, who said the situation could become
that although there has been a ceremony and that has led to public rejoicing the Prince of Wales is not married and the ... Mrs Parker Bowles is not his wife. And that would be a very, very serious matter.
She is a real person yesterday I was writing her page . Suddenly,the new account appeared . The new account thought I was her and wrote the thought down .I even have to write my Royal License Number down.
Please Check if the person who use Deleted in Wikisource and Wikipedia is the same person.
Wiki data have 7 languages .and She is Thai .I believe that administrator who tried to delete the bio of the person who contributed to our people should not be the administrator .If the article l redirect is not good enough the administrator should help me correct it not delete it.What do you think ? สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 10:00, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The Thai Wikisource and Thai Wikipedia is the one that is having problems now . สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 15:55, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I meant the article in Thai that was marked {{ delete}} s:th:พันโทหญิง ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล, th:ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล
They seem to be same person .To Bad one of them is the administrator. สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 16:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I am the one who wrote it and was the one who wrote my Royal License Number down .
I was blocked and that is for sure th:ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล and s:th:พันโทหญิงฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล was put to delete by the same person 110.171.96.213 ( talk) 04:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter • Subscription list on the English Wikipedia
Did you know?
Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has wrapped up most of their work on the 2017 wikitext editor and the visual diff tool. The team has begun investigating the needs of editors who use mobile devices. Their work board is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are fixing bugs and improving mobile editing.
— Whatamidoing (WMF) ( talk) 17:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I've never asked you anything, but this time I think I have to.
Flickr will start deleting photos in February 2019.
I assume you know, but Commons is incredibly dependent on Flickr. Because there is no social (media) aspect to Commons (any personal images, educational value or not, are typically deleted), things like photos of notable people very often come from Flickr. Many government agencies also use Flickr, they probably don't always have Pro accounts.
To the point: it's probably a given that Archive Team will pick this up. But given how huge Flickr is, I suspect they need bandwidth. Lots of bandwidth. And storage. And this probably needs to happen quite fast - you can't back up Flickr in a week. So I hope you can set some wheels in motion to make sure Archive Team will have access to the resources they will need (possibly in part through Commons). For 500px 90,167 photos were recently imported (with the help of Archive Team) to Commons when they ended their Creative Commons licensing. 90,167 photos is something I could store on a large USB flash drive. I estimate 500px to be roughly one grain of sand compared to a beach named Flickr. You should also know that Flickr2Commons, by far the most widely used tool to import photos from Flickr, does not currently have any active maintainer. - Alexis Jazz 23:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Could somebody else review what's happening at Birthright citizenship in the United States? I'm withdrawing from editing it because I feel conflicted. It just bothers me to no end to in effect say the our President is identified as a "white nationalist." BTW he stated in an interview on video that he would revoke birthright citizenship in the United States by means of an executive order. See, e.g. CNN.
The paragraph most at issue is: "The aspect of birthright citizenship conferred by jus soli (Latin: right of the soil) is regarded as controversial by some U.S. political figures, particularly those associated with white nationalism"
The next paragraph talks about Trump and the video complete with refs.
Trump identifies himself as a "nationalist". Others, e.g. in Pittsburgh, identify him as a "white nationalist." I'm tending to the 2nd POV now. Part of my conflict, I suppose, is that I was born to 2 then non-citizen parents in the US. I'm as American (and as WASP) as anybody. But I'm having difficulty handling this. Any help appreciated. Smallbones( smalltalk) 14:30, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Can someone please outline the evidence suggesting Trump isn't a white nationalist? Our Racial views of Donald Trump article states:
Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio was pardoned by Trump for contempt of court baring racial profiling. [41] He used the term "very fine people" to describe white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, Klansmen, neo-Nazis, and various militias who had formed a homicidal mob in Charlottesville.
Jimbo, do you agree with Henry Cadbury, that, "By hating Hitler and trying to fight back, Jews [were in 1934] only increasing the severity of his policies against them"? [42] 73.222.1.26 ( talk) 07:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Are you aware your talk page is being edited? A couple days ago I attempted to post a personal message to you about an idea I have for a possible new project, and requesting any comments you might have about it, but it was summarily deleted by User: Guy Macon before you could have a chance to read it. I posted the same idea on Larry Sanger's talk page with a similar result. I was accused of soapboxing for sending you an idea and requesting comments on it. Subsequently I've been threatened with a block, called a liar on my talk page, ridiculed on my talk page, an MfD nomination was filed to delete my sandbox, where my idea was placed for further refinement, a WP:BLP violation was proposed against me, somebody else was recruited to file an ANI complaint against me, and numerous insults were posted on my talk page. Yet no article was edited or created. I assumed edits to my proposal, if implemented, would have to be consistent with WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, and I have been stalked all over Wikipedia by this editor, who has left disparaging remarks everywhere I have left a message (including on the talk pages of Elonka and Coppertwig and others). I have made significant contributions to Wikipedia, including several Good Articles and many new articles, but I was driven out of Wikipedia ten years ago by an administrator who outed me--for the second time--and initiated uninvited contact with me via email at my place of employment> This was my first post returning to Wikipedia. So far, I can only surmise things have gotten worse, not better. So, before I leave again, I thought you should be informed about this incident. My initial message was sent to you and Sanger because the proposal is a large one, requiring a lot of time and editors to work on it, if it was accepted. I have no hope of that now, no hope of any productive editing on Wikipedia. Anyway, you should know somebody is deleting messages from your talk page before you can read them. Check the diffs. Mervyn Emrys ( talk) 20:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I have found a widespread problem on Wikipedia that I think should be addressed. The official definition of the United States is obviously the fifty states and D.C., yet in the first sentence in the article on United States, it says the country is also composed of its territories. The total population of the US is defined as the fifty states and D.C. There are also endless instances in US law and elsewhere of phrases similar to "the US and/or US territories" showing that the US and its territories are different. There is not one official US government definition including US territories as part of the country, it is only the 50 states and D.C. The much bigger problem is that it is not only in the United States article, it is in various other related articles, and there are articles of other countries, other countries' territories, and related articles throughout Wikipedia that have definitions and references that differ from the official definitions from the respective governments. There was a mediation discussion here /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/United_States which resulted in the opinions of some participants overruling official definitions. But, as I said, I am posting here because the problem is much more widespread than just one popular article. Led8000 ( talk) 17:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Someone absentmindedly editing a webpage with no reference to an official decision does not overrule the rest of the government. That person probably did not even realize that their definition included territories. Led8000 ( talk) 03:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Mr. Wales, wouldn't it be for the best to make a Wikipedia policy concerning the official definitions of any and all countries? Led8000 ( talk) 04:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Alan, you obviously are not a lawyer or knowledgeable about law. Those are definitions for use within a certain text of law, so the parameters do not have to be stated every time the term is stated. Here are some examples of this in the same law - the term - “parent” does not include the natural father of the child if the father has disappeared or abandoned or deserted the child or if the father has in writing irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption. - and - apparently the definition of the word "child" should be changed also, according to you, referring either to age or "someone's child" - The term “child” means an unmarried person under twenty-one years of age - (in the same law) https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/html/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapI-sec1101.htm Led8000 ( talk) 07:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo - what would it hurt if, instead of indef blocking or site banning a longterm quality editor - one of GA/FA/DYK caliber - over a behavioral issue, the acting admin gives them the choice to serve 6 mos (or whatever #) helping reduce the backlogs at WP:NPP and WP:AfC (unless the dispute is in those areas), or some other reassignment in an effort to retain that editor? Does it sound foolish to you? Atsme ✍🏻 📧 01:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
This is just something I noted. You have an open door policy, which I find admirable. It's however not very practical when it you combine it with both regular wikibreaks (at least not editing) up to two weeks and a talk page archiver setting of just one single day. The door is open but the office often empty, except for some WikiJaguars luring in the corners, waiting for prey.
Just an idea: appoint one or more active users to moderate your talk page. Let them put {{ subst:DNAU}} on items they think you should at least skim over. - Alexis Jazz 22:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Very pretty daily edit count (
Minesweeper on nightmare difficulty)
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Jimbo editcount
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I've changed it to 2 days and 3 threads remaining for now. We'll see what that looks like.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 20:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
"... a novel study by MIT researchers finds debilitating factors — such as excessive bickering and poorly worded arguments — have led to about one-third of RfCs going unresolved...“It was surprising to see a full third of the discussions were not closed,” says Amy X. Zhang, a PhD candidate in MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL) and co-author on the paper, which is being presented at this week’s ACM Conference on Computer-Supported Cooperative Work and Social Computing." Source: [49] This seems reminiscent of the pattern identified in the field of behavior genetics in the excellent book Misbehaving Science: basically, the same disputes keep being re-litigated and brought up and debated over and over again, and we never seem to get closer to a satisfactory answer. IntoThinAir ( talk) 04:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Maybe the bot just took it away before you could respond. I don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=866850610#Flickr_is_about_to_die.
I think this is pretty important. As you do have an open door policy, a simple "ack" would go a long way, even if you think Wikimedia can't or shouldn't have a role in this. I'd just like to know you got the message. - Alexis Jazz 08:10, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Overall, it is best for CC images to be uploaded to Commons directly rather than taking a detour via Flickris great in theory. Unfortunately, since Commons doesn't permit batch-uploading from mobile devices, that's not practical. If I'm writing about a military cemetery, then between general look-and-feel shots to illustrate the article on the cemetery, photographs of the architecture of the cemetery chapel(s) and individual shots of potentially noteworthy graves I can easily take upwards of a hundred photos of that cemetery ( example). In such a case my options are:
Why is someone from the House of Commons vandalizing pages related to a California congressional election? [50] [51] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 16:53, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
I have written up a petition to TASS and RIAN Novosti asking them to release specific photos under a Wikimedia-friendly license. Please do sign it, and spread the word. Most of the photos are portraits of cosmonauts, famous pilots, deceased persons, and major historic events (like the first spacewalk). It's on Russian Wikipedia since the photos are from Russia, the link is here. Having these images under creative commons licences would really help the development of Soviet-related content, since some of the most major topics lack photographs. Since you are the founder of Wikipedia, please don't be afraid to reword the petition or add some photo item requests to the list. Thank you, -- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 21:25, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello, respected Jimbo Wales! I ask you, please allow us, we want to open Wikipedia companies in Tajikistan. A branch of this company we really need to supplement information about Tajikistan, Tajiks and others. Respect, Jaloliddin Madaminov ( talk) 09:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC).
There is a deletion discussion at Commons which, in my opinion, has ramifications for thousands of images. (I am purposely not expressing any opinion here on whether that would be a Good Thing or a Bad Thing). The discussion is here: [54] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Just FYI reminder, as 3 days left for new proposals:
Once again, the massive 2018 U.S. mid-term elections have likely overshadowed the WMF 2019 Wishlist proposals, while many U.S. 50-50% recounts are still being planned. This WMF schedule of overlapping the Wishlist survey with the U.S. elections+recounts is very poor timing for those Wikipedians who work with setup of precinct voting machines, or storage, or recount issues. Hence, remind users of 3-day cutoff for new proposals this weekend. - Wikid77 ( talk) 16:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo. Don't know if you'll be interested in my two cents, but here they are:
I've been a registered editor since 2010, and an anon since 2006. I am nothing but excited about the project. I tell all my friends about what a great experience being part of the Wikipedia community has been for me, and how much I've strengthened my editing and communication skills in the year I've been here.
That said, the WMF donation request emails are getting out of hand. They're getting increasingly needy (and honestly a little manipulative with the subject lines). I get that Wikipedia needs donations to survive, I really do. I donate a few hours every day to this project. And it's starting to bother me that the groveling is the public face of the project I am a part of. [NAME] - I'll be honest: I can't afford it
is a subject straight out of
phishing spam. Or how about: [NAME] - Deleting Wikipedia?
Manipulative.
I'm not saying stop asking for donations. That's a totally normal part of a non-profit. But can we act like the adults we are? More and more, when I tell people I'm an editor, I hear about how much they hate the tone of our donation ads. Is this the face we want to be projecting? cymru.lass ( talk • contribs) 22:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes- if you're only concerned about the immediate click rate, your reputation and long-term brand value will decline. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 17:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
The Special Barnstar | |
Hi! SirBlueStar ( talk) 06:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
File:Rubber Duck (8374802487).jpg | A duck! |
Hi! SirBlueStar ( talk) 06:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
Wikipedians are finding complex issues among the 20+ recounts in the 2018 U.S. mid-term elections, although some contests have been resolved by counting mail-in ballots, other recounts are tedious, such as Florida for Senator, Governor and Florida Agriculture Commissioner (1 of 3 cabinet positions). The wp:RS reliable sources, for detailed recounts, have been difficult to find, but local TV transcripts in each region of Florida seem to provide the best details; for example CBSMiami.com with "Sen. Nelson Wants Gov. Scott To Recuse Himself From Recount Process" (12 Nov 2018), after Florida court rejected Governor Scott's lawsuit to impound ballots and tabulating machines before the recount was finished. For the Senate contest, the other recount antics appear to be 2000 Florida recount all over again, just with different lawsuits and protests. For example, the Broward County Supervisor of Elections was met with jeers of "Lock her up" because some vote counts were late in her county. Bags of mail-in votes ( Opa-locka) were rejected in Miami-Dade County because those ballots were delayed when the recent pipe-bomber caused a shutdown of some Florida post offices, where packages of explosive devices had been shipped to Democrats, as also causing delays for (majority-Democrat) mail-in ballots, and a perfect excuse to reject allowing those post-marked Democrat votes as "too late" to be counted. All Florida precincts now are required to use pen-marked ballots (no more "hanging chad" of the prior push-pin ballots), but a curious vote tally occurred in Broward County, where nearly 25,000 ballots had no vote for Senator while showing few votes omitted for lower offices, as the reverse of the typical trend where the highest office has the most total votes, compared to lesser offices skipped by busy voters. Perhaps Wikipedians will have more time to write about such events after the recounts are finished. As typical, many areas of enwiki are updated by mere skeleton crews of editors who have limited time to write about recount-delay antics. More sources later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 18:30/ 18:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
There's a simple solution: outlaw gerrymandering and voter suppression, and introduce independent districting and electoral commissions. Having a candidate's family or supporters, or, much worse, the candidate themselves, in charge of an election and its oversight, is so obviously inappropriate that one wonders when people decided that they could get away with it so the hell with it. Guy ( Help!) 00:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
I have a friend who is clearly notable and should be covered in Wikipedia. Because I have a COI (this is a friend) I want to take great pains to do everything the right way. Because of my position, I don't even think I should write a draft, although I do have sufficient links to share. Of course I have some additional concerns that at least some negative people may wish to excessively object just to pick a fight with me - I'm not interested in fighting anyone. Or that my participation may bring negative people to want to come in and troll by trying to dig up dirt or writing the article in a negative way.
All of that argues for simply doing something quiet - asking trustworthy people in an off-wiki way to take a look and see if they want to write an article. But I actually think it would be much nicer if I had community guidance on how to do this transparently.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 17:48, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Looking at the ethics, any celebrity has the same rights, as anyone, to have a separate pseudonym username, and then submit a draft page to wp:AfC for any topic except relatives or business partners. A secret pseudonym cannot be outed; however, per wp:SOCK, a username should not used for evasion, but could be used for a topic-area, such as have 3 usernames for different topics, with one to edit some wp:BLP pages, another for general edits, and yet another for editing nuclear physics or some other limited specialty. The point is to ethically answer, "Why did you use that username?" ... "To edit biopages, or physics" (etc.).
By having multiple other usernames, then evasion would not be a foregone conclusion as when only one pseudonym. Meanwhile, the danger of editing with other usernames is the problem of same-page editing via sock names, and hence, the easiest method is to focus on a main other-username for most pseudonym editing, then rarely use the additional usernames as only for extremely limited topics, such as submitting AfC drafts. As for "friends" in a sense, then any editor could imagine a one-way friendship as fan of a celebrity, or secret mentor to assist a notable person, and hence I do not think submitting a draft for a notable occasional friend as if an unethical COI problem, not in the sense of writing about a notable family member, company investment or co-worker sharing corporate success. Perhaps an essay, " wp:Celebrity status" could explain how celebrities could edit same as anyone else, but beware promotional text. More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello, Jimbo Wales. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, over 10 years ago, you had warned us how a wp:POV_fork page could be major trouble, but I didn't really understand the severe problems until I found the 2017-2018 page " Irish slaves myth" (real page, not a joke). I have concluded how the page first should be renamed as " Irish slavery debate" for the balanced title used in various broader sources. Meanwhile, let me describe the horrors of the POV fork. Well Jimbo, you probably already knew, as I did not, that captive Irish forced labourers have been called Irish "slaves" for centuries, [56] possibly even by those same Irish men, women, and children themselves, while they lived out their "myth" of capture, forced transport, being re-sold, whipped, [57] or having their indentured servitude" doubled by their masters, from average 4-9 years [58] as 8-18 years in bondage with hard labour. My first frustration, when I tried Google Search about the "myth" was the discovery that all search-results kept reinforcing the slave-myth viewpoint, in dozens of sources, as a Google confirmation bias enslaved (pun intended) to the POV-fork's title phrase, with "myth" as a word rarely used in broader sources. Finally, I realized the term "debate" as in "Irish slavery debate" had become the neutral phrase to discuss historical sources, versus " blarney" and then Google with "debate" found scholarly sources comparing forms of forced slavery. The second horror was trying to add facts into the page, as to refute the "myth" viewpoint, but those phrases were removed as off-topic from the myth meme.
Then the 3rd horror was checking the page revision-history where 2 years of objections had been edit-warred into the page, but often by IP users (who tend to be WP's secret experts), but of course cannot be contacted to ask follow-up sources because rotating IP-address users live with temporary IP usernames. Anyway, I regret such a page, as " Irish slaves myth" has festered on enwiki for 2 years, but I intend to write an essay about fork problems, as a real-life example of how a POV-fork can promote a radical viewpoint for years, despite hundreds of years of (written) facts to the contrary, not a "myth" invented in the 1990s to bolster internet racism. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:50, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm thinking about all of this. I only have a couple of potentially useful thoughts so far. First, let's imagine a hypothetical position that someone might have. "Because this group is using the plight of people A in order to minimize the plight of people B, we should minimize the plight of people A." This is clearly wrong. Let me make the relevant substitutions here, "Because modern racists are using the plight of Irish people to minimize what happened to Africans, we should minimize what happened to Irish people in order to deprive them of that rhetorical move." I think it is obvious why that is wrong. (I don't think anyone has actually taken that position, but surely you can see that some of the discussion here comes perilously close to that.)
The only thing that matters in describing the situation of these Irish people is... the situation of those Irish people. In particular, what matters is what reliable sources, both historical and contemporary, say about the matter, quite independently of the debate about the misuse by racists.
Now, as it turns out, I think that - as far as I am aware to date - the idea that Irish people were slaves in America actually is a myth. So my point is NOT to say "Oh, but the racists have a point" - I doubt very much if they do. My point is - my position (our position) on the historical matter should be wholly independent of what racists think.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Closed discussion about racists |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Continue discussion at: " #How to mention political groups in a page". - Wikid77 ( talk) 22:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
All the best to you and your family. I hope you have a nice dinner with turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes and gravy, and/or sweet potatoes, green bean casserole (with crispy fried onions on top), squash, and of course pumpkin pie.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Jimbo Wales: I just wanted to say hello to the founder! Thanks for such an amazing creation :-) Seahawk01 ( talk) 04:53, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, why do you invite me to edit your user page?
It's generally improper to edit someone else's user page, and besides, there's not really anything I could do to improve it anyway.
Benjamin ( talk) 10:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I am reaching out to you Jimbo about the need for the Wikimedia to keep the free knowledge movement in Europe strong. Already Project Gutenberg have blocked access to their site in Germany after a court there ordered them to block access to 18 public domain works. (PD in USA, but not in Germany)
[63]
[64]. It is important that European governments do not censor Wikipedia over copyright when enacting the provisions of the
Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market which as you must know, will be passed into law individually by each European country. The legislatures have the ability to alter the overall terms and make it easier for people in European countries to restrict free knowledge. It is important that we do not think the battle is over and become complacent in fighting for free knowledge. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Complet Idiot (
talk •
contribs) 14:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC) Striking comment by indefinitely blocked sockpuppet per
WP:SOCKSTRIKE
IntoThinAir (
talk)
03:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, long time no see, hope you are well and that you had a nice thanksgiving!
Listen, there is a thing going on at Talk:Sofia Airport which you, and all ladies and gentleman here, may want to know because it raises some interessting aspects. Let me put you into context of what I find important there, cause it ends up not being about some peripherical European airport, but about the approach we have as a project.
The article Sofia Airport is a typical article just as all articles of airports of that and bigger size are. The article structure and content are the norm present in, I dare to say, over 95% of our airport articles. This article had nothing special, till recently, when it was nominated for Featured Article. A series of editors uninvolved with airports or aviation came wanting firmly to remove the Sofia_Airport#Airlines_and_destinations table. The few Bulgarian editors that worked on improving the article thought it was extremelly unfair since all other airport articles have such a table. Obviously, WP:OTHER applies, but the problem are the reasons provided for the removal of the table. As all can see, the issue dominates the latest threads at Talk:Sofia Airport. The main arguments are WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTDIR, WP:PROMO, WP:NOTTRAVEL, ammong others. The thing is that the problem of the Airlines and destinations table present in all airport articles with active schedulled flights, was already discussed at least at:
At WP:Airports, project most directly related, the same concerns were expressed, and the result was to keep the tables while at Village pump the result was to delete. I didn´t participated in any of those discussions, I only got recently aware of the issue, and my intention is not to lobbie for any of the sides, I understand both. I have been defending the side that votes for keeping the table because of several reasons, but I brought the issue here because the issue itself opens way for analising the road our project is taking and how is Wikipedia positioning itself in the vast world of the internet. Depending on the perspective and interpretation, both sides can be right.
Allow me to make a minor introduction so the aspect of the question I am refering to becomes fully visible. I am an only child, and as such, I spent much time alone. At certain age the encyclopedias became my brothers and sisters. Not only I literally eat everything about the issues I was interested in, but I even grabbed encyclopedias opening random pages and reading what was there. I was fascinated by the encyclopedias because of all they included and they could take me pretty much everywhere. Afterwords many things happened in my life, but when I discouvered Wikipedia, that encyclopedic wonderfull feeling came back! Not only the joy of swimming in knolledge, but this was even better, I could activelly participate. Even as a child I dreamed about being able to correct or complete information in encyclopedias, and now I was able to contribute and improve it. We have pictures, multimedia, links, we can even upload stuff! When young, since I had numerous encyclopedias in different languages and sizes, some quite old, some new, I always found interesting to compare content. I often noticed how the view over different subjects changed in time or language. I found curious the aspect of the impossibility of updating encyclopedias, what was written there was eternal, even if a year after being published, events occured or discouveries were made that totally changed the perspective. Our project here is fascinating preciselly because it is dynamic in that sense, our content is being addapted continuously to any new reality, and even the old versions are available to see.
This opened way for Wikipedia to be much more than an encyclopedia in its classical sense, and opened way for content to be included which didn´t made sense in a static written encyclopedia. I see that happening right here in the case of airports. What would one include in an article of an airport in a classical encyclopedia? Obviously its history, evolution, its structure, important events, and available statistics and data. One could write about the airlines that were based in it and used it as its hub, write about the main airlines and most succesfull routes, etc. But our encyclopedia being dynamic opens way for us to give complete, ever updated, data. This is an advantage quite usefull for a reader. This aaspect didn´t made much sense in the past, but now, in this form, it does. People travel more than ever before, and will travel even more, and can use us now effectivelly. I mean, not just in the old sense of using an encyclopedia for basic information, but actually getting live information for planning a trip. Me, my family, my friends, we used preciselly our lists here at the airports for information to travel. And the best thing is that we have enough enthusiastic editors involved in mantaining those lists complete and updated. Me, for instance, despite being an airlines enthusiast, I never ever recall having added or removed a company or destination in those lists, I contribute in the prose, specially historic parts, of airports and airline companies. But I am very glad to see that there are people who mantain those tables perfect.
So, this decition of keeping or removing the tables, actually has to do with much more than the airport of Sofia itself. It has to do with the approach our project will have for this cases where the advantage of being dynamic, in comparison to static written encyclopedias, can be taken. I personally think we should take those advantages. I already sugested that recentism is solved by expanding the other sections of the article, and not by removing content. Also, the tables, as such, absolutelly solve the problem of WP:PROMO because they include all airline companies and destinations whithout making distinction or favouring any. The proposal of the opponents goes in the line of mentioning in prose the most important companies and routes, but how can they not see the problem of PROMO that would create? They claim the table creates instability in the article (yes, editors are constantly updating the table, that is a good thing) but how can they not predict the instability that would be ceated by mentioning only some companies and routes and not others? What criterium would be applied? The top 5 routes? Why not 7? ... The table has them all equally represented without favouring any, and, besides, our project has to take advantage of this situations for the reasons I explained. What you think? FkpCascais ( talk) 23:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
You were stocking bread. Financial problems?
No, seriously, he did look a lot like you.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
On the subject of Irish slavery, the issue was noted how sources about indentured servitude referred to "racist" groups, and that linkage seemed to slant coverage away from wp:NPOV neutral text as if saying the topic were a "favorite subject of wife-beaters" or such. In other words, the problem becomes a form of " begging the question" when describing a viewpoint. How else could Wikipedia mention various political groups, tied to a viewpoint, without writing an intrinsic connection between one particular political group as the only people polled about the viewpoint? Should a page limit the mention of both supporters or opponents, of an idea, into a separate section of the page, and include the time periods when the polling was done? - Wikid77 ( talk) 22:25, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Somehow, in trying to understand this concern and the discussion thereof, I found myself at Other (philosophy) and specifically this:
"The term Othering describes the reductive action of labeling a person as someone who belongs to a subordinate social category defined as the Other. The practice of Othering is the exclusion of persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self.[7]"
Which (Othering) I am feeling might be the most important and consistent social problem which can and should be addressed and thought about. However, it is much more difficult to address than any one specific example of othering, imo. For example, I was at least once called a "Ni___Lover" as a child and I remember that I immediately felt like the "other" (outside of my group of pals) for a moment. I don't think I've ever been called a racist, but I suppose I could be because I like the old confederate monuments. I was also never called a "Commie" or "Dirty Commie" (as far as I know), as many Americans were back in the 50s. I hear there is some "othering" going on these days regarding red-heads, calling us "gingers" but now that my hair is white or gone no one can tell I used to be a red-head, but although I was called "Red" by my school bus driver, it was not with a negative connotation.
What is being called "tribalism" re: USA politics might also be a form of "othering". It is interesting that in Wikid77's sharing, the woman said something like "We're not all like that" which reflects, I think, an acceptance by that woman of being in the "other" grouping...i.e., an acceptance of the "othering". Here we have the weirdest example of a recognition and/or paranoia of economic status "othering" that I've seen.
I think Othering is a real obstacle to any substantive advancement of humanity. Its nothing new but may be getting more prevalent. Its also a really intellectually lazy and or stupid way of thinking, imo, and has no place in Wikipedia editing or discussions that I can think of right now. Nocturnalnow ( talk) 21:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
The lower parts I get: edits by IP-editors and newbies are checked by trusted users. Administrators check those trusted users. But who checks the administrators? As I found out, "bureaucrats" is not the answer. But what is? On a small wiki, there are usually no problems with admins that can't be overcome. But as a wiki grows, new structures are formed. Conflicts arise within groups. When you have 100+ admins, that is bound to happen.
And what if administrators would change the rules so they can't be removed from office with less than 75% support for that? And how can it be guaranteed that administrators feel free to voice their concerns about another administrator? Or even, how can it be guaranteed that simple users can voice their concerns?
I admit this case isn't entirely hypothetical - but what I'm curious about here is how it was all supposed to work in your mind. Because I can't really see that right now. - Alexis Jazz 20:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Here is a trivia question for you: what is the most profitable business in the world?
Free clue: it is an industry who's very existence makes it much harder for us to create high-quality encyclopedia pages.
-- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Do you still live in Tampa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.49.67 ( talk) 19:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello
My name is Taylor and I have been active at various wikies (EN,EO,ID,SV) for 2 years. Unfortunately I have run into severe trouble on EO Wiktionary. I am currently permanently (formally 3 months) banned there for the 3rd time.
The state if the EO Wiktionary is fairly bad (example of a Wiktionary in a good state: SV). The worse thing is the excessive piracy there. The administrator Pablo is obsessed by "improving the quality" of the EO Wiktionary by mass-copying everything from everywhere (other Wiktionaries (preferably DE), Wikipedia, over 100 years old low quality dictionaries, other (non-GFDL) sources, ...). Maybe copying from DE Wiktionary is not a "real" crime, it is just desperately useless. Pablo has already copied 10'000's of pages and templates from there. For example the section about the SV word "mus" (EN: mouse) as left behind by Pablo "improving the quality" was full of explanations in DE and translations to DE. I have fixed that page. I have fixed 100's of other pages with similar problems. I have also fixed 100's of pages copied from some old SV<->EO dictionary, by correcting the provided translation, adding further translations, or labeling the word as "archaic". There used to be 7 templates for same thing: plural form of EN noun. One of them is copied from EN Wiktionary, others are copied from DE Wiktionary and renamed several times by Pablo. Many of them worked badly due to Pablo's lack of skills and "puristic" changes (replacing traditional grammar terminology like "pluralo" by "genuine" EO words constructed by literally translating ridiculously long compound words from DE) resulting in broken templates showing things like {{{2}}}. I created a new well-working template even suitable for "though" words like "virus" of "die". My work switching to the new template and deprecating the broken ones was violently interrupted by the ban. I have also created several (not insanely many) EO pages with definitions and examples. EO Wiktionary is far away from having satisfactory pages about even the most elementary EO words. Pablo doesn't care at all about definitions (the hardest part). Many pages about EO words "contributed" by em consist of nothing but the translation block, brainlessly copied from DE Wiktionary without changes, frequently even containing EO as destination language (the translation of the EO word "kato" into EO is "kato"). But the "best contributor" Pablo copies (frequently particularly lousily) from other (non-GFDL) sources as well. The problem got pointed some time ago by one former user (who had left EO Wiktionary). Pablo deleted the 3 pointed pages (I re-created 2 of them without piracy soon after) and ey promised to delete all other pirated pages that ey would find. Ey gave a f**k about even searching. Later I pointed 2 further pirated pages. Pablo ignored the message. There are 1000's of more of less directly pirated pages there.
There are currently 3 active "contributors" at the EO Wiktionary. Me, permanently banned and unable to edit anything except my discussion page full of unproductive bickering with Pablo and appeals than nobody reads. Then Noelekim contributing valuable edits to an EN->EO list-type dictionary. Pablo has even created a few EN pages, (lousily) copying from this dictionary. This contributor doesn't edit any other pages and doesn't participate in discussions and bickering (maybe ey just fears a ban). The last and actually pretty exclusive "contributor" is Pablo "working" hard in order to turn the former EO Wiktionary into another (piracy-powered) DE Wiktionary.
Pablo doesn't appreciate my contributions at all. I have been accused many times for "notoriously destroying other people's work". According to Pablo brainless mass-copying is valuable "work", while fixing such mess by me is "destroying other people's work". I was also working to create a few smarter templates allowing to replace hundreds of primitive mass-created or mass copied-in templates. This was not appreciated either, the work is not finished and I can't continue. There are frequently absurdly many (3 or even 5 or even more) templates for very same thing, just abbreviated and spelled differently ("ark", "Ark", "ark.", "Arkit", "ARK", ...). There are redundant templates copied from other Wiktionaries, spelled in DE, ES, IT and more. Pablo is continuing to "really improve the quality" of the EO Wiktionary by adding further redundant templates. I got also accused for "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates". I had admittedly edited many templates, but none of my edits had the effect according to the accusations. More likely Pablo is angry about the fact that I have skills for editing templates and modules while ey does not have such skills, and solved eir problem with undesirable competition by banning me. But it comes even worse. Some time ago (year 2014) Pablo emself performed a (primitive) edit on a template (EO verb declension table) with effect according to accusations: "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates". Ey even boasted with this edit in the news (year 2017, pretty late news) on the title page (that nobody else can edit). Apparently Pablo has the right to "spread evil neologisms to all pages via templates" while I don't have such a right, because Pablo is the emperor while I am just nothing. Note that I actually have NOT spread any neologisms to all pages via templates. The previous ban was "justified" by among Other Nonsense Complaints About Me Refusing To Use Uppercase Letters. This seems to be a "rule" imported by the DE nationalist Pablo from the DE Wiktionary. I refuse to follow DE rules (Obligation To Begin Every Word With An Uppercase Letter) at the EO Wiktionary.
I have got banned 3 times. The "justifications" given by Pablo are very long but incomprehensible even for people proficient in EO, and accusing me for including but not limited to "acting like a dictator" (Pablo emself either doesn't act like a dictator, or maybe ey does have the right to act like a dictator while I don't), "using lowercase letters" (see above), "notoriously destroying other people's work" (see above), "repeatedly submitting nonsense" (apparently Pablo's own nonsense (this is DE again, not EO) either doesn't count as nonsense, or maybe Pablo has an absolute right to submit unlimited amount of (pirated) nonsense, while I don't have a comparable right), or "spreading evil neologisms to all pages" (see above).
After having banned me the last time, Pablo published a news item about me containing not only false accusations about "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates", but also evil sexist insults using male words despite I am not male. I cannot answer to the post denying the shameful nonsense because I am banned.
Pablo got crowned to permanent administrator in year 2010 by just 3 YES votes from totally 3 votes. Those 3 people left the project long ago, Pablo remained and became the permanent absolute emperor at the EO Wiktionary. The last successful election to an administrator was held 2017-Jan, Castelobranco got 4 YES votes from totally 4 votes. The steward restricted Castelobranco's adminship to 1 year pointing to the low amount of votes of 4, while Pablo with 3 votes previously got permanent adminship. Castelobranco left the project 4 months later, eir adminship expired silently 2018-Jan, and Pablo alone is now the absolute emperor for all eternity.
Pablo gives notoriously a f**k about community consensus. About 1/2 year ago I initiated 2 ballots:
Great! But Pablo gives a f**k about it and continues copying complete pages from DE Wiktionary, together with all "needed" templates with DE names. This method apparently "saves work" for Pablo. The SV Wiktionary does not have a single DE template, and non-SV words don't have any translation block (and not images either). Pablo's aggressive DE nationalism is taking over the EO Wiktionary and nobody (except me) dares to protest.
I have repeatedly suggested for Pablo to go back to the DE Wiktionary where ey apparently came from. No result.
There are further problems with Pablo's conduct. In the recycle bin there are almost 1'000 candidates for deletion accumulated during many years. Pablo gives a f**k about deleting them. Ey doesn't archive the discussion page (90% of content is globally distributed spam in EN) either.
On the title page of the EO Wiktionary (that nobody except Pablo can edit) we can read that the EO Wiktionary is supposed to become "the greatest and most complete" dictionary ever. Just now this "greatest and most complete" project ever has the most incapable and arrogant administrator ever, filling the dictionary by (lousily) pirating from over 100 years old low quality dictionaries and other dubious sources (DE Wiktionary), and banning everybody attempting to contribute in a different manner. Pablo has repeatedly boasted with things like "I have been tolerating your" ... (followed by absurd accusations) ... "but now my patience is exhausted". Pablo behaves like the exclusive owner of the EO Wiktionary and a dictator.
There is no reason at all why Pablo should be an administrator. Neither the election 8 years ago (electors went away long ago, and on many wikies all admins have to be reconfirmed evey year), nor merits (the amount of edits is tremendous, but it's >= 99% piracy, Pablo is a manually operating pirating bot), nor the skills (Pablo can barely code templates, and not att all code modules), and last but not least nor the conduct.
On the EO Wiktionary there is a page Administrantoj with section Misuzo_de_la_administrantaj_rajtoj (abuse of the admin rights) saying:
Al administranto povas esti liaj rajto deprenita, se tiu la rajtoj misuzas. Nuntempe povas la admnistrant-statuso esti deprenita aŭ per decido de Jimbo Wales, aŭ pere de decido de Arbitracia komisiono. Laŭ ilia decido oni povas doni malpli altajn punojn, ekz. limigo de uzado de iuj funkcioj. Teĥnike povas la administrantajn rajtoj depreni stevardoj.
An administrator can be deprived of eir rights if ey abuses those rights. Currently the admin-status can be canceled by either Jimbo Wales or the Arbitration Committee. According to their decisions lower punishments can be ruled, for example restricting the usage of some functions. Technically the stewards are responsible for removing administrator rights.
The "Arbitration Committee" is a red link. There doesn't seem to exist any Arbitration Committee on the EO Wiktionary, and the promised "Global Arbitration Committee" doesn't exist yet and probably never will. I tried to appeal via my user page but the template {{unblock}} doesn't work there, Pablo gives a f**k about my appeals and no other admin exists. Then I appealed to the Arbitration Committee on the EN Wikipedia. The result was a rejection by only 8 NO-votes from 8 total votes sending me to "Requests for comment". Nobody seems to read that page, the only one comment posted there sends me to you. During a pause between 2 bans I seized the occasion and posted a proposal to desysop Pablo. Not a single comment or vote came it.
It is extremely easy to create a new account and continue editing from it, or just edit as an IP-address. Unfortunately I would prefer to leave Pablo alone with bad behaviour and avoid coming near to sockpuppetry. Nor I am willing to wait until 2019-Feb-13 when the ban is expected to expire, allowing me to perform a few edits before I get banned again, maybe for 2 years, maybe genuinely permanently.
The EO Wiktionary has been hijacked by a severely misbehaving administrator. There is no local community able to deal with this. There is no exclusive private right for Pablo to own a public wiki. 2 "instances" have sent me to you with the issue. Please desysop Pablo. Thank you. Taylor 49 ( talk) 17:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
If you've never seen a financial bubble pop you should check out bitcoin now. Quick, before it disappears completely. The price is now about $3,735 down over 80% since last December (from about $19,500), down almost 60% (from about $9,000) on Feb.14 when I said it would go to $0, down over 40% (from about $6,500) in the last 2 weeks, down 17% in the last 3 days.
Why is the bubble bursting now? Actually, nothing much new, but the NY Times gives a pretty good summary at 5 Reasons Cryptocurrency Prices Are Plunging Again. The main reason is, as everybody should have known for several years, is that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are useless (according to The Economist). Most cryptocurrencies are also crooked as a dog's hind leg. Professor Nouriel Roubini of NYU says "Bitcoin is the ‘mother of all scams’ and blockchain is most hyped tech ever" . Eight Nobel laureates in economics have long ago said that bitcoin is a bubble. Google, Twitter, Facebook, Bing and half-a-dozen other large websites have banned their ads. China, which accounted for the majority of bitcoin transactions in 2017, has banned individual trading in bitcoin, bitcoin exchanges, and transaction processing ("mining").
But I'm not here just to say "I told you so." Wikipedia has a major problem dealing with financial scams. I've been trying to edit the Bitcoin article for months and found the ownership by bitcoin "fans" impossible to deal with. I did have some initial success putting in the above facts in the article, but they all got pushed to the bottom. You'd think when 8 Nobel laureates say that the bitcoin market is a bubble, that would be important enough to put into the article's lede. Sorry, but that can't be done on Wikipedia. And it must have cost our readers $10 million this year at a minimum.
tldr; the bitcoin bubble has popped, Wikipedia has trouble with financial scam articles, I told you so.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for making the most important site on the internet for research, useful for seeing information and great with its sources. WhatShouldBeDoneHmm ( talk) 23:53, 30 November 2018 (UTC) |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 225 | ← | Archive 230 | Archive 231 | Archive 232 | Archive 233 | Archive 234 | Archive 235 |
Sometimes it makes me want to scream how many people seem so mistaken as to NPOV policy when it comes to what is WP:FRINGE. When we have a poll saying as high as 74% of the population believe something is true (including hundreds of very prominent people), you would think this would be an easy case. This is but one instance, sadly it isn't an isolated one. It seems like a lot of people treat WP:FRINGE as "If I think it is reasonable point of view then it is not fringe," but if "I don't believe it to be true at all it is therefore fringe." It really shouldn't matter what any WP editor thinks of the topic, it should be purely based on how many people hold this view. Also, another variant you see on questions of fact often on WP is "How does a majority of RS handle this fact? We must have the article follow the RS in expressing this like the RS do." I mean really? If ANY RS expresses a contrary view, this should be a red light that this is opinion and not fact and we shouldn't be following how most of the RS express it. Sadly that seems to escape a lot of editors. Makes me sad, but thank you for being here for me to vent to. - Obsidi ( talk) 00:57, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Astrology is the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial objects as a means of divining information about human affairs and terrestrial events....Contemporary Western astrology is often associated with systems of horoscopes that purport to explain aspects of a person's personality and predict significant events in their lives based on the positions of celestial objects; the majority of professional astrologers rely on such systems.It isn't until the end of the WP:LEAD that we say things like "has been shown to have no scientific validity" and "astrology is now recognized as pseudoscience." How many people would you say don't think astrology is a pseudoscience? Can you name any prominent living person who has the view that it is a science and not a pseudoscience? (I doubt it.) It is true in some ways that pure surveys cannot answer these questions, but that is also why we have the qualifier for prominent people, and even then it can be phrased in a neutral manner as to what is generally recognized (which even many of the people who disagree would say is true). - Obsidi ( talk) 02:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
You write: "If ANY RS expresses a contrary view, this should be a red light that this is opinion and not fact and we shouldn't be following how most of the RS express it."
Actually that is exactly what we are supposed to do. It's called WP:DUEWEIGHT. We are supposed to give more weight to "how most of the RS express it".
BTW, the fact that something is in a RS has no bearing on whether it's opinion or fact. Both appear in RS, and we document both.
You also express some frustration with fellow editors: "Just annoyed that a lot of editors seem to either not know the policies, not care about what they are, or interpret them vastly differently than I do." (1) AGF that we DO "know the policies". (2) Yes, many "interpret them vastly differently than [you] do." (3) You might do well to consider the possibility that you may be wrong. (Heck, we're all learning here!)
You believe in Trump's "deep state" conspiracy theory. That itself indicates something wrong with your thinking. That usually comes from getting ideas from unreliable sources. Stop sucking on that teat. Just because Trump pushes a conspiracy theory does not make it a fact. Don't believe it. The fact he says something should be a big red flag that it's likely untrue. Just because he fools lots of people does not make it true, or make those people anything less than fringe believers in his conspiracy theories.
Never forget that deception can become the dominant factor in a society, and the majority will believe lies. At the risk of triggering Godwin's law, look at history to see how this works. Autocrats, Pied Pipers, and Pinocchios can push unreliable and fringe sources until they end up dominating RS. Truth can (temporarily) lose out.
At Wikipedia we strongly resist this trend. Trump's war on RS must be resisted and not affect us. Unfortunately we have many editors who believe RS are fake news, and they get that idea from Trump. Being a diehard Trump supporter has serious consequences for editing here. It creates a serious CIR problem. If an editor can't vet sources, or they believe what Trump says about RS, they fail one of the most basic qualifications for editing here. Such fringe editors should stay away from controversial topics and just perform gnomish work on other articles. That way they won't create disruption and will still do some good. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 03:36, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Really we need like a flow chart or something to make this easier for people.
It really shouldn't matter what any WP editor thinks of the topic, it should be purely based on how many people hold this view.
If you think that, you fundamentally misunderstand
WP:NPOV. Not sure how many times
WP:NPOV has to state "reliable sources" for people to get that FRINGEness as with everything is determined by
"a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.". Maybe we do need a flow chart.
Galobtter (
pingó mió)
07:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
"If I think it is reasonable point of view then it is not fringe," but if "I don't believe it to be true at all it is therefore fringe."As I noted above, we do also have the qualifier then that such a non-fringe view (ie not a view only held by an extremely small number of people) should then easily be able to name prominent people that hold that view. And of course that view must be published in a reliable source for inclusion. But as long as a reliable source publishes such a view (not held by an extremely small number of people) by such a prominent individual, that is a minority viewpoint and not fringe. Now that view might be given very little weight if it is a small minority view compared to a much more prominent in RS majority view, but it is still not fringe then. - Obsidi ( talk) 08:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
From his just published last column
"There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet."
Jimbo, what presence does Wikipedia have in Saudi Arabia? Nocturnalnow ( talk) 03:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
After thinking about Jimbo's(your) comments I am now wondering whether this entire event has been a False flag operation; exactly fitting our first sentence in our False flag article: A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility.
Its almost impossible to ever prove a false flag but they are often similar in their makeup. One of the similarities is often "timing", in this case it might be this.
Since I'm so old, I have seen a number of these powerful false flags which often relate directly to President Eisenhower's farewell address, here in video, warning to Americans about the danger of having created a Military–industrial complex after WW2.
One specific example of the many beneficiaries of wars and conflicts might be addressed in this Village Voice article, written less than a month after 9/11.
A more recent example of the Military–industrial complex, which Eisenhower warned us about, flexing its muscles, could be the immediate and fierce resistance that exploded when Trump began talking about making friends with Russia, and the whole "Russian collusion" theory might possibly be a false flag created to protect the status quo political and financial benefits and profits flowing to some who want an adversarial/"enemy" relationship to continue between the West and Russia.
This immediate and current horrible event might be almost a reuse of the same template...seeing a trend away from an adversarial relationship between Saudi Arabia and the West, the evil establishment monsters, on the Saudi side, who thrive on political and military, and in this case, religious, conflict, simply came up with a creative way to throw a huge monkey wrench into the progress Jimbo alludes to.
In other words, the bad guys' objective was/is exactly what has occurred. The objective was to get caught, knowing (it would not take a rocket scientist) what the ramifications of getting caught would be..exactly what is happening right now.
One thing is a fact, an undeniable and universally agreed upon fact, there is a hellova lot of money and power accumulated by many people, especially insiders, from military and political conflict and animosity. Nocturnalnow ( talk) 15:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy. I know your views on biographies, it's my understanding that the core of WP:BLP applies across all projects, mandated by the Foundation, am I right on this? I have a concern over random lists of attacks as "quotes about" in Wikiquote. I don't think this is appropriate for any politician, regardless of party affiliation. Spiteful commentary by people like Assange, who openly admits to hating her, does not seem to be appropriate, certainly not unless others have identified it as a notable statement. What's your view please? Guy ( Help!) 12:43, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Intentionally or knowingly posting content that constitutes libel or defamationor
With the intent to deceive, posting content that is false or inaccurate. - Obsidi ( talk) 23:44, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
When comparing sizes of hurricanes, there are some rare special cases, such as the fading Hurricane Sandy at New Jersey landfall on October 29, 2012, at 8:00pm EDT. [6] As noted by other editors, the shore winds of Hurricane Sandy were mostly tropical-storm force, but the southeast sector came ashore with windspeed 80 mph (130 km/h; 70 kn) around Atlantic City after 9 p.m. EDT, as technically bringing some sustained hurricane-force winds ashore during those hours. However that half-circle Sandy is very different from typical hurricanes where the hurricane-force winds come ashore hours before landfall with the eye of the storm. Hence, in the case of Superstorm Sandy, some people would have been able to evacuate in the lower winds, such as traveling north, for hours before landfall occurred in New Jersey, perhaps to avoid the shore storm tide of about 13.3 feet (4.1 m) that night. [7]
Hurricane Andrew re-formed in 2 days: Another rare storm was Hurricane Andrew, of late August 1992, which had weakened then re-intensified to Category 5 near Homestead AFB, Florida, on 24 Aug 1992 at 5:05 a.m. landfall, as almost no time to evacuate unless size is considered. A simulation of Andrew's eyewall noted: [8]
However, in many cases the size of a storm should be noted when making hurricane preparations. Perhaps WP pages could include circle-width graphs for each landfall location of a strong storm. More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't know where to ask this, so am asking here. What happened to the marker buttons on my watchlist? A while ago somebody changed the color coding I so appreciated to a solid or blank button. But now there's just a little dot in front of each entry and I can't tell which I've viewed and which I haven't. The top of the page announces, "Changes to pages since you last visited them are shown with solid markers," but that's not so on my watchlist. YoPienso ( talk) 12:47, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
It makes me very happy that there is a redirect WP:ITSTHURSDAY. I had not seen that before, it amuses me.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:46, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
One of the more aggressively promoted pieces of text on Wikipedia is WP:MEDRS, whereby medical articles are supposed to reflect only a very narrow range of accepted recent opinion. At the very core of that range are the Cochrane Reviews, a special super-correct source so reliable it has special exemptions, including from the usual arbitrary five year cutoff, built right in to the policy. And right at the center of the Cochrane reviews? Yup. We have a co-founder being expelled, which he says is because he was insufficiently friendly to the vaccine industry. Now mind, we're not talking about somebody pushing nonsense about autism and jade vaginal eggs, we're talking about someone who published a sensible critique in the British Medical Journal. Six board members voted to expel him, five against. Then four resigned in protest, issuing this statement.
I don't think we can stop the medical lobbyists from deleting inconvenient information around here under color of policy any more than we can keep a blatant ad from showing up on the Main Page every other day, but encyclopedists should stand advised that there is no magic source you can always trust ... ever. Wnt ( talk) 14:18, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I should point out that WP:MEDRS says simply "Cochrane Library reviews are generally of high quality and are routinely maintained even if their initial publication dates fall outside the 5-year window." (the 5-year window referring to the fact that a medical review article older than five years has probably been superseded). If individual editors are elevating Cochrane to some divine level of authority, then take the issue up with them. I must admit to being seriously disappointed with Cochrane on my own special interest topic, where the authors of their review were not experts in the field and made some quite naive and over simplified conclusions based on inadequate understanding of the problem domain. But that review (repeated with the same mistakes some years later by the same team) is just one example, and that of course isn't evidence of any fundamental issue, just makes one wise to the fact that it isn't perfect by any means. I do think some editors here over promote and over use review articles simply because they have internet access to them. They often are very narrowly focussed on treatment efficacy and neglect to read sufficiently widely and deeply on their topic to actually understand what they are writing about. As for the title of this section, well that's just trolling b******t of a Daily Mail level of unintelligent flatulence. -- Colin° Talk 07:46, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
"If you compare the risk of sitting versus the highest performing on the exercise test, the risk is about three times higher than smoking," Jaber explained." ""People who do not perform very well on a treadmill test," Jaber said, "have almost double the risk of people with kidney failure on dialysis.""
According to these folks. The accolades are nice but the important sentence is "We live in a moment when few people seem to agree on a shared reality." Wikipedia getting it right is more important than ever, now that the post-truth era has dawned. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 16:45, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello Jimbo Wales:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable
Halloween!
–
North America
1000
15:42, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
With all seven Reference desks and the talk page protected virtually continuously for the whole of October I have not been able to comment. Here's the discussion - what's your view?
In a same-sex marriage, who is the husband and who is the wife?
As we congratulate the royal newlyweds and wish them all happiness we still have the problem that Camilla and Charles are not married, for reasons explained here Special:Permalink/840529430#Repealing a repeal. Plans are being made for the first same-sex royal marriage. If the Camilla/Charles marriage were valid we might at some point see the Sovereign (who is Supreme Governor of the Church of England) give his or her wedding vows in a Roman Catholic church. We might also have a king and queen who are both of the same sex. If they are both female, would the partner of the one who was regnant have to be satisfied with the title "Prince Consort"? Note that before 1829 the only way Roman Catholics could lawfully marry was in Protestant churches. See "The King and the Catholics" by Antonia Fraser [10]. 92.8.223.143 ( talk) 10:29, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
And be it Enacted that this Act shall extend only to England, and shall not extend to the Marriage of any of the Royal Family.
As of 1 January 1950 the position was exactly the same - s.24 was bolstered by the Marriage Act 1949, s.79(5) which reads "Nothing in this Act shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." Just to remove any lingering doubt, in October 1955 Viscount Kilmuir, the Lord Chancellor, confirmed:
Marriages of members of the royal family are still not in the same position as marriages of other persons, for such marriages have always been expressly excluded from the statutes about marriage in England and Wales and marriage abroad and are therefore governed by the common law.
This means that in England and Wales, such a marriage can be validly celebrated only by a clergyman of the Church of England.
So are you suggesting the law has been changed, and if so what is the title of the relevant Act and when did it come into force? 92.23.53.164 ( talk) 12:12, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The Supreme Court recently ruled that legislation on civil partnerships was in breach of human rights. It did not rule that that fact made the legislation void. The only way to change the law is to pass another law. In the case of civil partnerships, the Government has said that that is what it is going to do, but until it does that a civil partnership between a man and a woman is void. In precisely the same way, register offices marriages by members of the royal family are void - and the government is not going to pass a law to legalise them. It did propose this in 2005 prior to the "marriage" of Camilla and Charles, but the Queen indicated her opposition and the proposal was dropped after a crisis meeting at Buckingham Palace between her and Dame Juliet Wheldon, head of the Government Legal Service. No Court has ruled that this marriage is legal - it is open to any interested party to make an application for the purpose.
The High Court is currently considering the legality of the Brexit referendum in a case brought by "UK in EU Challenge" [13]. In Scotland, the Inner House of the Court of Session has referred an application for a "declarator" to the European Court of Justice. Any proceedings in the High Court relating to the "marriage" would be brought by an application for a Declaration. Another group, Fair Vote, is crowdfunding a judicial review into Theresa May's refusal to hold a public inquiry on the referendum.
The only way that Camilla and Charles can marry in England is in a Church of England ceremony after the passing of Camilla's former husband. The royal website recently removed a statement that Camilla can be no more than Princess Consort. If the ceremony went ahead this would boost the economy and tourism. It would make it more likely that Camilla would eventually be crowned Queen. 92.23.53.243 ( talk) 12:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.230.249 ( talk)
The Original Barnstar | |
Thanks for founding Wikipedia for you and me! =) Huff slush7264 talk 21:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC) |
"WikiTribune, the ambitious community-driven newsbrand backed by Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, has restructured after confirming to The Drum the departure of its original 13 journalists. The title’s co-founder, Orit Kopel, has said that it will extend its pilot period while it hunts for a more 'community oriented' editorial team that will better work with contributors." [14]
I wouldn't read too much into this. Startups often make these sort of corrections as they discover what works and what doesn't. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, I came across this edit where an editor is declaring their conflict of interest. They are claiming to be hired by Google to write an article about a Google employee. What do you think of this? Peacock ( talk) 22:27, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, today I observed Balkan news and find maybe interesting matter for Wiki users/admins. relating to situation in Macedonia [16], namely Macedonian Parliament will vote for Constitutional amendments with two-thirds majority. What was stunning for me is that despite of the unanimous call of US and EU leaders it seams that Members of Macedonian Parliament will probably not reach 80 votes necessary for passage of amendments and the number of them is exactly as predicted by user Operahome two weeks ago, i.e. aprox. 75 Members of Macedonian Parliament. Looks Operahome arguments were relevant after all. Алфа БК ( talk) 11:08, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
178.222.115.231 ( talk) 22:42, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
178.223.37.146 ( talk) 00:41, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, once said:
So yes, we are biased towards science and biased against pseudoscience. We are biased towards astronomy, and biased against astrology. We are biased towards chemistry, and biased against alchemy. We are biased towards mathematics, and biased against numerology. We are biased towards cargo planes, and biased against cargo cults. We are biased towards crops, and biased against crop circles. We are biased towards laundry soap, and biased against laundry balls. We are biased towards water treatment, and biased against magnetic water treatment. We are biased towards electromagnetic fields, and biased against microlepton fields. We are biased towards evolution, and biased against creationism. We are biased towards medical treatments that have been shown to be effective in double-blind clinical trials, and biased against medical treatments that are based upon preying on the gullible. We are biased towards NASA astronauts, and biased against ancient astronauts. We are biased towards psychology, and biased against phrenology. We are biased towards Mendelian inheritance, and biased against Lysenkoism. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
(Redacted) -- David Tornheim ( talk) 21:52, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Nobody has disputed the claim that we have a civility problem.I am glad we agree on that.
Your argument boils down to "something has to be done. This is something. Therefore this must be done."No. I said no such thing. What do you think I feel must be done? I honestly think that the need to have that RfC is a joke. I do not believe that RfC is going to solve our civility problem no matter what the outcome is. That the answer to that question is not obvious and nearly unanimous simply shows how serious the civility problem is. This first step to solving a problem is recognizing it.
Again, the consensus at the RfC is against you. Do you have a theory as to why that might be?Yes. For all the reasons Snow Rise articulated here.
The question is what to do about it.What would you do about it? I'm open to ideas. I agree with Snow Rise's statement here. You seem to as well. I think one step is holding long-term editors accountable for incivility, rather than looking the other way. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 04:45, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I was just going through Some of Indian Films Articles, I just noticed about Tu Maza Jeev The page is written and portrayed in Advertising format, I was thinking to put Advert Tag but before out of curiosity thought to check logs, after scanning it, I have noticed User Tiven2240 is more concerned and interested in editing and keeping this article as he wrote! Looking at its edit pattern & logs, Its noticed that the Image had been deleted by 'CommonsDelinker Bot' previously, also this page has been Nominated for deletion twice . Also this page has been marked for {Notability},{POV},{Advert}, which has been reverted or deleted without explanation by Same user. It seems he have Rollback Rights and he is misusing same. After doing detailed research about film and IMDB link given in page I found, that his name is included in credits social media marketing manager. I have seen his edits, pages he working on, I think this user deserve to be Ban Immediately for Vandalism & such commercial interests and this page should be removed on top priority. I think it need to be verified and take action.( ErGopalVerma ( talk) 07:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC))
@ Softlavender: Thank you for notifying me about this. As read above this is another vandalism/personal attack made on me. This counts another one and I am facing a series of it on meta as well as on my home Wikipedia which is Marathi Wikipedia. This all comes connected to This SPI. The sockmaster is the director of Sorry (2017 film) and uses Wikipedia for his self promotion. You can even find his page Yogesh Gosavi on wiki. Whereas I have been stopping his motives on English as well as on Marathi Wikipedia. I even had deleted his promotional non notable film article on Marathi Wikipedia for which he seems to vandalise again here. He has been abusing me a lot since then and using IP addresses to abuse me. The editing pattern and many more gives me a feel that this is another sock of the sockmaster. DMacks and Bbb23 have always blocked these socks. This users accounts are even globally blocked by Stewards. Now the user is using ImDb for his vandalism. I will even notify Imdb about it. I have no connection with film industry and I am not even interested in it. As you can see the article history of the maza jeev I had created it well far before when I was a newcomer on English Wikipedia. Now I am well experienced enough and even members of global groups. This is a pure vandalism by sock and I am fed up by it. Jimbo I support your mission towards making a world where information is free and I have volunteered my best to fight vandalism on it and I will continue it. There may be many of them who make such allegations and I am now used to it. But I believe that all will be fine as you have been my inspiration. Thanking you. -- ✝iѵɛɳ२२४० †ลℓк †๏ мэ 10:50, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
In 2005 the Frequently Asked Questions section of the Prince of Wales' website included the following:
Will the Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
The answer (which on examination will be seen to be a non-answer) was:
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.
The question and answer were removed a few years ago and on 8 March (International Women's Day) a Clarence House spokeswoman insisted that the statement "has not changed". Press reports at the time suggested that Princes William and Harry may not allow Charles to make Camilla his Queen. This source [32] says "Camilla will effectively be Queen after Queen Elizabeth leaves the throne." This source [33] confirms that only legislation will stop Camilla becoming Queen and reports that Prince Charles' office insists that "Our position has always been that you become queen only by convention, not by statute, not by law." This led the Labour backbencher Andrew Mackinley to tell the Evening Standard:
The royals knew she would become queen but they wanted people to think that she wouldn't. Now the truth is finally out.
Prince Charles misled the country about the succession but did he also mislead the country about the validity of the marriage? David Pannick QC (as he then was), who went on to defeat the Government over Brexit in the Supreme Court, delivered this statement:
Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act added that nothing in that legislation "shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." The whole of the 1836 Act was then repealed by the Registration Services Act 1953. The problem is that there was in 1949 a custom (based on previous law) of members of the Royal Family only marrying in church. It is very doubtful that this custom has ceased to exist, and so Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act still prevents a civil ceremony. To avoid a royal flush of embarrassment, the Prince and Mrs Parker Bowles need to find an archbishop or a vicar, who is available at short notice.
A Parliamentary report cites a story in The Times of 22 February 2005 headed "Camilla calls a couple of justices and says, Let's oust him." In later editions this was replaced by a story that former Attorney-General Sir Nicholas Lyell said on the BBC programme PM that emergency legislation may be needed, otherwise the couple may have to marry in Scotland. On 27 February the Daily Telegraph reported that Downing Street had admitted that "no one could pronounce with any certainty on the likely outcome of any legal challenge". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.230.249 ( talk) 15:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
A senior Law Lord, Lord Pannick, who has a track record of being right when he disagrees with the Government, has stated that Camilla is not Duchess of Cornwall:
Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act added that nothing in that legislation "shall affect any law or custom relating to the marriage of members of the Royal Family." The whole of the 1836 Act was then repealed by the Registration Services Act 1953. The problem is that there was in 1949 a custom (based on previous law) of members of the Royal Family only marrying in church. It is very doubtful that this custom has ceased to exist, and so Section 79(5) of the 1949 Act still prevents a civil ceremony. To avoid a royal flush of embarrassment, the Prince and Mrs Parker Bowles need to find an archbishop or a vicar, who is available at short notice.
He has been seconded by Stephen Cretney QC, Emeritus Fellow in Legal History at Oxford University, who said the situation could become
that although there has been a ceremony and that has led to public rejoicing the Prince of Wales is not married and the ... Mrs Parker Bowles is not his wife. And that would be a very, very serious matter.
She is a real person yesterday I was writing her page . Suddenly,the new account appeared . The new account thought I was her and wrote the thought down .I even have to write my Royal License Number down.
Please Check if the person who use Deleted in Wikisource and Wikipedia is the same person.
Wiki data have 7 languages .and She is Thai .I believe that administrator who tried to delete the bio of the person who contributed to our people should not be the administrator .If the article l redirect is not good enough the administrator should help me correct it not delete it.What do you think ? สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 10:00, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The Thai Wikisource and Thai Wikipedia is the one that is having problems now . สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 15:55, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I meant the article in Thai that was marked {{ delete}} s:th:พันโทหญิง ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล, th:ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล
They seem to be same person .To Bad one of them is the administrator. สุขุมวิท39 ( talk) 16:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I am the one who wrote it and was the one who wrote my Royal License Number down .
I was blocked and that is for sure th:ฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล and s:th:พันโทหญิงฐิฏา รังสิตพล มานิตกุล was put to delete by the same person 110.171.96.213 ( talk) 04:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter • Subscription list on the English Wikipedia
Did you know?
Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has wrapped up most of their work on the 2017 wikitext editor and the visual diff tool. The team has begun investigating the needs of editors who use mobile devices. Their work board is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are fixing bugs and improving mobile editing.
— Whatamidoing (WMF) ( talk) 17:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I've never asked you anything, but this time I think I have to.
Flickr will start deleting photos in February 2019.
I assume you know, but Commons is incredibly dependent on Flickr. Because there is no social (media) aspect to Commons (any personal images, educational value or not, are typically deleted), things like photos of notable people very often come from Flickr. Many government agencies also use Flickr, they probably don't always have Pro accounts.
To the point: it's probably a given that Archive Team will pick this up. But given how huge Flickr is, I suspect they need bandwidth. Lots of bandwidth. And storage. And this probably needs to happen quite fast - you can't back up Flickr in a week. So I hope you can set some wheels in motion to make sure Archive Team will have access to the resources they will need (possibly in part through Commons). For 500px 90,167 photos were recently imported (with the help of Archive Team) to Commons when they ended their Creative Commons licensing. 90,167 photos is something I could store on a large USB flash drive. I estimate 500px to be roughly one grain of sand compared to a beach named Flickr. You should also know that Flickr2Commons, by far the most widely used tool to import photos from Flickr, does not currently have any active maintainer. - Alexis Jazz 23:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Could somebody else review what's happening at Birthright citizenship in the United States? I'm withdrawing from editing it because I feel conflicted. It just bothers me to no end to in effect say the our President is identified as a "white nationalist." BTW he stated in an interview on video that he would revoke birthright citizenship in the United States by means of an executive order. See, e.g. CNN.
The paragraph most at issue is: "The aspect of birthright citizenship conferred by jus soli (Latin: right of the soil) is regarded as controversial by some U.S. political figures, particularly those associated with white nationalism"
The next paragraph talks about Trump and the video complete with refs.
Trump identifies himself as a "nationalist". Others, e.g. in Pittsburgh, identify him as a "white nationalist." I'm tending to the 2nd POV now. Part of my conflict, I suppose, is that I was born to 2 then non-citizen parents in the US. I'm as American (and as WASP) as anybody. But I'm having difficulty handling this. Any help appreciated. Smallbones( smalltalk) 14:30, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Can someone please outline the evidence suggesting Trump isn't a white nationalist? Our Racial views of Donald Trump article states:
Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio was pardoned by Trump for contempt of court baring racial profiling. [41] He used the term "very fine people" to describe white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, Klansmen, neo-Nazis, and various militias who had formed a homicidal mob in Charlottesville.
Jimbo, do you agree with Henry Cadbury, that, "By hating Hitler and trying to fight back, Jews [were in 1934] only increasing the severity of his policies against them"? [42] 73.222.1.26 ( talk) 07:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Are you aware your talk page is being edited? A couple days ago I attempted to post a personal message to you about an idea I have for a possible new project, and requesting any comments you might have about it, but it was summarily deleted by User: Guy Macon before you could have a chance to read it. I posted the same idea on Larry Sanger's talk page with a similar result. I was accused of soapboxing for sending you an idea and requesting comments on it. Subsequently I've been threatened with a block, called a liar on my talk page, ridiculed on my talk page, an MfD nomination was filed to delete my sandbox, where my idea was placed for further refinement, a WP:BLP violation was proposed against me, somebody else was recruited to file an ANI complaint against me, and numerous insults were posted on my talk page. Yet no article was edited or created. I assumed edits to my proposal, if implemented, would have to be consistent with WP:BLP and WP:NPOV, and I have been stalked all over Wikipedia by this editor, who has left disparaging remarks everywhere I have left a message (including on the talk pages of Elonka and Coppertwig and others). I have made significant contributions to Wikipedia, including several Good Articles and many new articles, but I was driven out of Wikipedia ten years ago by an administrator who outed me--for the second time--and initiated uninvited contact with me via email at my place of employment> This was my first post returning to Wikipedia. So far, I can only surmise things have gotten worse, not better. So, before I leave again, I thought you should be informed about this incident. My initial message was sent to you and Sanger because the proposal is a large one, requiring a lot of time and editors to work on it, if it was accepted. I have no hope of that now, no hope of any productive editing on Wikipedia. Anyway, you should know somebody is deleting messages from your talk page before you can read them. Check the diffs. Mervyn Emrys ( talk) 20:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I have found a widespread problem on Wikipedia that I think should be addressed. The official definition of the United States is obviously the fifty states and D.C., yet in the first sentence in the article on United States, it says the country is also composed of its territories. The total population of the US is defined as the fifty states and D.C. There are also endless instances in US law and elsewhere of phrases similar to "the US and/or US territories" showing that the US and its territories are different. There is not one official US government definition including US territories as part of the country, it is only the 50 states and D.C. The much bigger problem is that it is not only in the United States article, it is in various other related articles, and there are articles of other countries, other countries' territories, and related articles throughout Wikipedia that have definitions and references that differ from the official definitions from the respective governments. There was a mediation discussion here /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/United_States which resulted in the opinions of some participants overruling official definitions. But, as I said, I am posting here because the problem is much more widespread than just one popular article. Led8000 ( talk) 17:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Someone absentmindedly editing a webpage with no reference to an official decision does not overrule the rest of the government. That person probably did not even realize that their definition included territories. Led8000 ( talk) 03:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Mr. Wales, wouldn't it be for the best to make a Wikipedia policy concerning the official definitions of any and all countries? Led8000 ( talk) 04:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Alan, you obviously are not a lawyer or knowledgeable about law. Those are definitions for use within a certain text of law, so the parameters do not have to be stated every time the term is stated. Here are some examples of this in the same law - the term - “parent” does not include the natural father of the child if the father has disappeared or abandoned or deserted the child or if the father has in writing irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption. - and - apparently the definition of the word "child" should be changed also, according to you, referring either to age or "someone's child" - The term “child” means an unmarried person under twenty-one years of age - (in the same law) https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/html/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapI-sec1101.htm Led8000 ( talk) 07:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo - what would it hurt if, instead of indef blocking or site banning a longterm quality editor - one of GA/FA/DYK caliber - over a behavioral issue, the acting admin gives them the choice to serve 6 mos (or whatever #) helping reduce the backlogs at WP:NPP and WP:AfC (unless the dispute is in those areas), or some other reassignment in an effort to retain that editor? Does it sound foolish to you? Atsme ✍🏻 📧 01:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
This is just something I noted. You have an open door policy, which I find admirable. It's however not very practical when it you combine it with both regular wikibreaks (at least not editing) up to two weeks and a talk page archiver setting of just one single day. The door is open but the office often empty, except for some WikiJaguars luring in the corners, waiting for prey.
Just an idea: appoint one or more active users to moderate your talk page. Let them put {{ subst:DNAU}} on items they think you should at least skim over. - Alexis Jazz 22:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Very pretty daily edit count (
Minesweeper on nightmare difficulty)
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Jimbo editcount
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I've changed it to 2 days and 3 threads remaining for now. We'll see what that looks like.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 20:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
"... a novel study by MIT researchers finds debilitating factors — such as excessive bickering and poorly worded arguments — have led to about one-third of RfCs going unresolved...“It was surprising to see a full third of the discussions were not closed,” says Amy X. Zhang, a PhD candidate in MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL) and co-author on the paper, which is being presented at this week’s ACM Conference on Computer-Supported Cooperative Work and Social Computing." Source: [49] This seems reminiscent of the pattern identified in the field of behavior genetics in the excellent book Misbehaving Science: basically, the same disputes keep being re-litigated and brought up and debated over and over again, and we never seem to get closer to a satisfactory answer. IntoThinAir ( talk) 04:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Maybe the bot just took it away before you could respond. I don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=866850610#Flickr_is_about_to_die.
I think this is pretty important. As you do have an open door policy, a simple "ack" would go a long way, even if you think Wikimedia can't or shouldn't have a role in this. I'd just like to know you got the message. - Alexis Jazz 08:10, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Overall, it is best for CC images to be uploaded to Commons directly rather than taking a detour via Flickris great in theory. Unfortunately, since Commons doesn't permit batch-uploading from mobile devices, that's not practical. If I'm writing about a military cemetery, then between general look-and-feel shots to illustrate the article on the cemetery, photographs of the architecture of the cemetery chapel(s) and individual shots of potentially noteworthy graves I can easily take upwards of a hundred photos of that cemetery ( example). In such a case my options are:
Why is someone from the House of Commons vandalizing pages related to a California congressional election? [50] [51] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 16:53, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
I have written up a petition to TASS and RIAN Novosti asking them to release specific photos under a Wikimedia-friendly license. Please do sign it, and spread the word. Most of the photos are portraits of cosmonauts, famous pilots, deceased persons, and major historic events (like the first spacewalk). It's on Russian Wikipedia since the photos are from Russia, the link is here. Having these images under creative commons licences would really help the development of Soviet-related content, since some of the most major topics lack photographs. Since you are the founder of Wikipedia, please don't be afraid to reword the petition or add some photo item requests to the list. Thank you, -- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 21:25, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello, respected Jimbo Wales! I ask you, please allow us, we want to open Wikipedia companies in Tajikistan. A branch of this company we really need to supplement information about Tajikistan, Tajiks and others. Respect, Jaloliddin Madaminov ( talk) 09:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC).
There is a deletion discussion at Commons which, in my opinion, has ramifications for thousands of images. (I am purposely not expressing any opinion here on whether that would be a Good Thing or a Bad Thing). The discussion is here: [54] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Just FYI reminder, as 3 days left for new proposals:
Once again, the massive 2018 U.S. mid-term elections have likely overshadowed the WMF 2019 Wishlist proposals, while many U.S. 50-50% recounts are still being planned. This WMF schedule of overlapping the Wishlist survey with the U.S. elections+recounts is very poor timing for those Wikipedians who work with setup of precinct voting machines, or storage, or recount issues. Hence, remind users of 3-day cutoff for new proposals this weekend. - Wikid77 ( talk) 16:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo. Don't know if you'll be interested in my two cents, but here they are:
I've been a registered editor since 2010, and an anon since 2006. I am nothing but excited about the project. I tell all my friends about what a great experience being part of the Wikipedia community has been for me, and how much I've strengthened my editing and communication skills in the year I've been here.
That said, the WMF donation request emails are getting out of hand. They're getting increasingly needy (and honestly a little manipulative with the subject lines). I get that Wikipedia needs donations to survive, I really do. I donate a few hours every day to this project. And it's starting to bother me that the groveling is the public face of the project I am a part of. [NAME] - I'll be honest: I can't afford it
is a subject straight out of
phishing spam. Or how about: [NAME] - Deleting Wikipedia?
Manipulative.
I'm not saying stop asking for donations. That's a totally normal part of a non-profit. But can we act like the adults we are? More and more, when I tell people I'm an editor, I hear about how much they hate the tone of our donation ads. Is this the face we want to be projecting? cymru.lass ( talk • contribs) 22:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes- if you're only concerned about the immediate click rate, your reputation and long-term brand value will decline. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 17:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
The Special Barnstar | |
Hi! SirBlueStar ( talk) 06:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
File:Rubber Duck (8374802487).jpg | A duck! |
Hi! SirBlueStar ( talk) 06:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
Wikipedians are finding complex issues among the 20+ recounts in the 2018 U.S. mid-term elections, although some contests have been resolved by counting mail-in ballots, other recounts are tedious, such as Florida for Senator, Governor and Florida Agriculture Commissioner (1 of 3 cabinet positions). The wp:RS reliable sources, for detailed recounts, have been difficult to find, but local TV transcripts in each region of Florida seem to provide the best details; for example CBSMiami.com with "Sen. Nelson Wants Gov. Scott To Recuse Himself From Recount Process" (12 Nov 2018), after Florida court rejected Governor Scott's lawsuit to impound ballots and tabulating machines before the recount was finished. For the Senate contest, the other recount antics appear to be 2000 Florida recount all over again, just with different lawsuits and protests. For example, the Broward County Supervisor of Elections was met with jeers of "Lock her up" because some vote counts were late in her county. Bags of mail-in votes ( Opa-locka) were rejected in Miami-Dade County because those ballots were delayed when the recent pipe-bomber caused a shutdown of some Florida post offices, where packages of explosive devices had been shipped to Democrats, as also causing delays for (majority-Democrat) mail-in ballots, and a perfect excuse to reject allowing those post-marked Democrat votes as "too late" to be counted. All Florida precincts now are required to use pen-marked ballots (no more "hanging chad" of the prior push-pin ballots), but a curious vote tally occurred in Broward County, where nearly 25,000 ballots had no vote for Senator while showing few votes omitted for lower offices, as the reverse of the typical trend where the highest office has the most total votes, compared to lesser offices skipped by busy voters. Perhaps Wikipedians will have more time to write about such events after the recounts are finished. As typical, many areas of enwiki are updated by mere skeleton crews of editors who have limited time to write about recount-delay antics. More sources later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 18:30/ 18:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
There's a simple solution: outlaw gerrymandering and voter suppression, and introduce independent districting and electoral commissions. Having a candidate's family or supporters, or, much worse, the candidate themselves, in charge of an election and its oversight, is so obviously inappropriate that one wonders when people decided that they could get away with it so the hell with it. Guy ( Help!) 00:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
I have a friend who is clearly notable and should be covered in Wikipedia. Because I have a COI (this is a friend) I want to take great pains to do everything the right way. Because of my position, I don't even think I should write a draft, although I do have sufficient links to share. Of course I have some additional concerns that at least some negative people may wish to excessively object just to pick a fight with me - I'm not interested in fighting anyone. Or that my participation may bring negative people to want to come in and troll by trying to dig up dirt or writing the article in a negative way.
All of that argues for simply doing something quiet - asking trustworthy people in an off-wiki way to take a look and see if they want to write an article. But I actually think it would be much nicer if I had community guidance on how to do this transparently.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 17:48, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Looking at the ethics, any celebrity has the same rights, as anyone, to have a separate pseudonym username, and then submit a draft page to wp:AfC for any topic except relatives or business partners. A secret pseudonym cannot be outed; however, per wp:SOCK, a username should not used for evasion, but could be used for a topic-area, such as have 3 usernames for different topics, with one to edit some wp:BLP pages, another for general edits, and yet another for editing nuclear physics or some other limited specialty. The point is to ethically answer, "Why did you use that username?" ... "To edit biopages, or physics" (etc.).
By having multiple other usernames, then evasion would not be a foregone conclusion as when only one pseudonym. Meanwhile, the danger of editing with other usernames is the problem of same-page editing via sock names, and hence, the easiest method is to focus on a main other-username for most pseudonym editing, then rarely use the additional usernames as only for extremely limited topics, such as submitting AfC drafts. As for "friends" in a sense, then any editor could imagine a one-way friendship as fan of a celebrity, or secret mentor to assist a notable person, and hence I do not think submitting a draft for a notable occasional friend as if an unethical COI problem, not in the sense of writing about a notable family member, company investment or co-worker sharing corporate success. Perhaps an essay, " wp:Celebrity status" could explain how celebrities could edit same as anyone else, but beware promotional text. More later. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello, Jimbo Wales. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, over 10 years ago, you had warned us how a wp:POV_fork page could be major trouble, but I didn't really understand the severe problems until I found the 2017-2018 page " Irish slaves myth" (real page, not a joke). I have concluded how the page first should be renamed as " Irish slavery debate" for the balanced title used in various broader sources. Meanwhile, let me describe the horrors of the POV fork. Well Jimbo, you probably already knew, as I did not, that captive Irish forced labourers have been called Irish "slaves" for centuries, [56] possibly even by those same Irish men, women, and children themselves, while they lived out their "myth" of capture, forced transport, being re-sold, whipped, [57] or having their indentured servitude" doubled by their masters, from average 4-9 years [58] as 8-18 years in bondage with hard labour. My first frustration, when I tried Google Search about the "myth" was the discovery that all search-results kept reinforcing the slave-myth viewpoint, in dozens of sources, as a Google confirmation bias enslaved (pun intended) to the POV-fork's title phrase, with "myth" as a word rarely used in broader sources. Finally, I realized the term "debate" as in "Irish slavery debate" had become the neutral phrase to discuss historical sources, versus " blarney" and then Google with "debate" found scholarly sources comparing forms of forced slavery. The second horror was trying to add facts into the page, as to refute the "myth" viewpoint, but those phrases were removed as off-topic from the myth meme.
Then the 3rd horror was checking the page revision-history where 2 years of objections had been edit-warred into the page, but often by IP users (who tend to be WP's secret experts), but of course cannot be contacted to ask follow-up sources because rotating IP-address users live with temporary IP usernames. Anyway, I regret such a page, as " Irish slaves myth" has festered on enwiki for 2 years, but I intend to write an essay about fork problems, as a real-life example of how a POV-fork can promote a radical viewpoint for years, despite hundreds of years of (written) facts to the contrary, not a "myth" invented in the 1990s to bolster internet racism. - Wikid77 ( talk) 20:50, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm thinking about all of this. I only have a couple of potentially useful thoughts so far. First, let's imagine a hypothetical position that someone might have. "Because this group is using the plight of people A in order to minimize the plight of people B, we should minimize the plight of people A." This is clearly wrong. Let me make the relevant substitutions here, "Because modern racists are using the plight of Irish people to minimize what happened to Africans, we should minimize what happened to Irish people in order to deprive them of that rhetorical move." I think it is obvious why that is wrong. (I don't think anyone has actually taken that position, but surely you can see that some of the discussion here comes perilously close to that.)
The only thing that matters in describing the situation of these Irish people is... the situation of those Irish people. In particular, what matters is what reliable sources, both historical and contemporary, say about the matter, quite independently of the debate about the misuse by racists.
Now, as it turns out, I think that - as far as I am aware to date - the idea that Irish people were slaves in America actually is a myth. So my point is NOT to say "Oh, but the racists have a point" - I doubt very much if they do. My point is - my position (our position) on the historical matter should be wholly independent of what racists think.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Closed discussion about racists |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Continue discussion at: " #How to mention political groups in a page". - Wikid77 ( talk) 22:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
All the best to you and your family. I hope you have a nice dinner with turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes and gravy, and/or sweet potatoes, green bean casserole (with crispy fried onions on top), squash, and of course pumpkin pie.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Jimbo Wales: I just wanted to say hello to the founder! Thanks for such an amazing creation :-) Seahawk01 ( talk) 04:53, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Jimbo, why do you invite me to edit your user page?
It's generally improper to edit someone else's user page, and besides, there's not really anything I could do to improve it anyway.
Benjamin ( talk) 10:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I am reaching out to you Jimbo about the need for the Wikimedia to keep the free knowledge movement in Europe strong. Already Project Gutenberg have blocked access to their site in Germany after a court there ordered them to block access to 18 public domain works. (PD in USA, but not in Germany)
[63]
[64]. It is important that European governments do not censor Wikipedia over copyright when enacting the provisions of the
Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market which as you must know, will be passed into law individually by each European country. The legislatures have the ability to alter the overall terms and make it easier for people in European countries to restrict free knowledge. It is important that we do not think the battle is over and become complacent in fighting for free knowledge. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Complet Idiot (
talk •
contribs) 14:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC) Striking comment by indefinitely blocked sockpuppet per
WP:SOCKSTRIKE
IntoThinAir (
talk)
03:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, long time no see, hope you are well and that you had a nice thanksgiving!
Listen, there is a thing going on at Talk:Sofia Airport which you, and all ladies and gentleman here, may want to know because it raises some interessting aspects. Let me put you into context of what I find important there, cause it ends up not being about some peripherical European airport, but about the approach we have as a project.
The article Sofia Airport is a typical article just as all articles of airports of that and bigger size are. The article structure and content are the norm present in, I dare to say, over 95% of our airport articles. This article had nothing special, till recently, when it was nominated for Featured Article. A series of editors uninvolved with airports or aviation came wanting firmly to remove the Sofia_Airport#Airlines_and_destinations table. The few Bulgarian editors that worked on improving the article thought it was extremelly unfair since all other airport articles have such a table. Obviously, WP:OTHER applies, but the problem are the reasons provided for the removal of the table. As all can see, the issue dominates the latest threads at Talk:Sofia Airport. The main arguments are WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTDIR, WP:PROMO, WP:NOTTRAVEL, ammong others. The thing is that the problem of the Airlines and destinations table present in all airport articles with active schedulled flights, was already discussed at least at:
At WP:Airports, project most directly related, the same concerns were expressed, and the result was to keep the tables while at Village pump the result was to delete. I didn´t participated in any of those discussions, I only got recently aware of the issue, and my intention is not to lobbie for any of the sides, I understand both. I have been defending the side that votes for keeping the table because of several reasons, but I brought the issue here because the issue itself opens way for analising the road our project is taking and how is Wikipedia positioning itself in the vast world of the internet. Depending on the perspective and interpretation, both sides can be right.
Allow me to make a minor introduction so the aspect of the question I am refering to becomes fully visible. I am an only child, and as such, I spent much time alone. At certain age the encyclopedias became my brothers and sisters. Not only I literally eat everything about the issues I was interested in, but I even grabbed encyclopedias opening random pages and reading what was there. I was fascinated by the encyclopedias because of all they included and they could take me pretty much everywhere. Afterwords many things happened in my life, but when I discouvered Wikipedia, that encyclopedic wonderfull feeling came back! Not only the joy of swimming in knolledge, but this was even better, I could activelly participate. Even as a child I dreamed about being able to correct or complete information in encyclopedias, and now I was able to contribute and improve it. We have pictures, multimedia, links, we can even upload stuff! When young, since I had numerous encyclopedias in different languages and sizes, some quite old, some new, I always found interesting to compare content. I often noticed how the view over different subjects changed in time or language. I found curious the aspect of the impossibility of updating encyclopedias, what was written there was eternal, even if a year after being published, events occured or discouveries were made that totally changed the perspective. Our project here is fascinating preciselly because it is dynamic in that sense, our content is being addapted continuously to any new reality, and even the old versions are available to see.
This opened way for Wikipedia to be much more than an encyclopedia in its classical sense, and opened way for content to be included which didn´t made sense in a static written encyclopedia. I see that happening right here in the case of airports. What would one include in an article of an airport in a classical encyclopedia? Obviously its history, evolution, its structure, important events, and available statistics and data. One could write about the airlines that were based in it and used it as its hub, write about the main airlines and most succesfull routes, etc. But our encyclopedia being dynamic opens way for us to give complete, ever updated, data. This is an advantage quite usefull for a reader. This aaspect didn´t made much sense in the past, but now, in this form, it does. People travel more than ever before, and will travel even more, and can use us now effectivelly. I mean, not just in the old sense of using an encyclopedia for basic information, but actually getting live information for planning a trip. Me, my family, my friends, we used preciselly our lists here at the airports for information to travel. And the best thing is that we have enough enthusiastic editors involved in mantaining those lists complete and updated. Me, for instance, despite being an airlines enthusiast, I never ever recall having added or removed a company or destination in those lists, I contribute in the prose, specially historic parts, of airports and airline companies. But I am very glad to see that there are people who mantain those tables perfect.
So, this decition of keeping or removing the tables, actually has to do with much more than the airport of Sofia itself. It has to do with the approach our project will have for this cases where the advantage of being dynamic, in comparison to static written encyclopedias, can be taken. I personally think we should take those advantages. I already sugested that recentism is solved by expanding the other sections of the article, and not by removing content. Also, the tables, as such, absolutelly solve the problem of WP:PROMO because they include all airline companies and destinations whithout making distinction or favouring any. The proposal of the opponents goes in the line of mentioning in prose the most important companies and routes, but how can they not see the problem of PROMO that would create? They claim the table creates instability in the article (yes, editors are constantly updating the table, that is a good thing) but how can they not predict the instability that would be ceated by mentioning only some companies and routes and not others? What criterium would be applied? The top 5 routes? Why not 7? ... The table has them all equally represented without favouring any, and, besides, our project has to take advantage of this situations for the reasons I explained. What you think? FkpCascais ( talk) 23:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
You were stocking bread. Financial problems?
No, seriously, he did look a lot like you.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
On the subject of Irish slavery, the issue was noted how sources about indentured servitude referred to "racist" groups, and that linkage seemed to slant coverage away from wp:NPOV neutral text as if saying the topic were a "favorite subject of wife-beaters" or such. In other words, the problem becomes a form of " begging the question" when describing a viewpoint. How else could Wikipedia mention various political groups, tied to a viewpoint, without writing an intrinsic connection between one particular political group as the only people polled about the viewpoint? Should a page limit the mention of both supporters or opponents, of an idea, into a separate section of the page, and include the time periods when the polling was done? - Wikid77 ( talk) 22:25, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Somehow, in trying to understand this concern and the discussion thereof, I found myself at Other (philosophy) and specifically this:
"The term Othering describes the reductive action of labeling a person as someone who belongs to a subordinate social category defined as the Other. The practice of Othering is the exclusion of persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self.[7]"
Which (Othering) I am feeling might be the most important and consistent social problem which can and should be addressed and thought about. However, it is much more difficult to address than any one specific example of othering, imo. For example, I was at least once called a "Ni___Lover" as a child and I remember that I immediately felt like the "other" (outside of my group of pals) for a moment. I don't think I've ever been called a racist, but I suppose I could be because I like the old confederate monuments. I was also never called a "Commie" or "Dirty Commie" (as far as I know), as many Americans were back in the 50s. I hear there is some "othering" going on these days regarding red-heads, calling us "gingers" but now that my hair is white or gone no one can tell I used to be a red-head, but although I was called "Red" by my school bus driver, it was not with a negative connotation.
What is being called "tribalism" re: USA politics might also be a form of "othering". It is interesting that in Wikid77's sharing, the woman said something like "We're not all like that" which reflects, I think, an acceptance by that woman of being in the "other" grouping...i.e., an acceptance of the "othering". Here we have the weirdest example of a recognition and/or paranoia of economic status "othering" that I've seen.
I think Othering is a real obstacle to any substantive advancement of humanity. Its nothing new but may be getting more prevalent. Its also a really intellectually lazy and or stupid way of thinking, imo, and has no place in Wikipedia editing or discussions that I can think of right now. Nocturnalnow ( talk) 21:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
The lower parts I get: edits by IP-editors and newbies are checked by trusted users. Administrators check those trusted users. But who checks the administrators? As I found out, "bureaucrats" is not the answer. But what is? On a small wiki, there are usually no problems with admins that can't be overcome. But as a wiki grows, new structures are formed. Conflicts arise within groups. When you have 100+ admins, that is bound to happen.
And what if administrators would change the rules so they can't be removed from office with less than 75% support for that? And how can it be guaranteed that administrators feel free to voice their concerns about another administrator? Or even, how can it be guaranteed that simple users can voice their concerns?
I admit this case isn't entirely hypothetical - but what I'm curious about here is how it was all supposed to work in your mind. Because I can't really see that right now. - Alexis Jazz 20:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Here is a trivia question for you: what is the most profitable business in the world?
Free clue: it is an industry who's very existence makes it much harder for us to create high-quality encyclopedia pages.
-- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Do you still live in Tampa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.49.67 ( talk) 19:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Hello
My name is Taylor and I have been active at various wikies (EN,EO,ID,SV) for 2 years. Unfortunately I have run into severe trouble on EO Wiktionary. I am currently permanently (formally 3 months) banned there for the 3rd time.
The state if the EO Wiktionary is fairly bad (example of a Wiktionary in a good state: SV). The worse thing is the excessive piracy there. The administrator Pablo is obsessed by "improving the quality" of the EO Wiktionary by mass-copying everything from everywhere (other Wiktionaries (preferably DE), Wikipedia, over 100 years old low quality dictionaries, other (non-GFDL) sources, ...). Maybe copying from DE Wiktionary is not a "real" crime, it is just desperately useless. Pablo has already copied 10'000's of pages and templates from there. For example the section about the SV word "mus" (EN: mouse) as left behind by Pablo "improving the quality" was full of explanations in DE and translations to DE. I have fixed that page. I have fixed 100's of other pages with similar problems. I have also fixed 100's of pages copied from some old SV<->EO dictionary, by correcting the provided translation, adding further translations, or labeling the word as "archaic". There used to be 7 templates for same thing: plural form of EN noun. One of them is copied from EN Wiktionary, others are copied from DE Wiktionary and renamed several times by Pablo. Many of them worked badly due to Pablo's lack of skills and "puristic" changes (replacing traditional grammar terminology like "pluralo" by "genuine" EO words constructed by literally translating ridiculously long compound words from DE) resulting in broken templates showing things like {{{2}}}. I created a new well-working template even suitable for "though" words like "virus" of "die". My work switching to the new template and deprecating the broken ones was violently interrupted by the ban. I have also created several (not insanely many) EO pages with definitions and examples. EO Wiktionary is far away from having satisfactory pages about even the most elementary EO words. Pablo doesn't care at all about definitions (the hardest part). Many pages about EO words "contributed" by em consist of nothing but the translation block, brainlessly copied from DE Wiktionary without changes, frequently even containing EO as destination language (the translation of the EO word "kato" into EO is "kato"). But the "best contributor" Pablo copies (frequently particularly lousily) from other (non-GFDL) sources as well. The problem got pointed some time ago by one former user (who had left EO Wiktionary). Pablo deleted the 3 pointed pages (I re-created 2 of them without piracy soon after) and ey promised to delete all other pirated pages that ey would find. Ey gave a f**k about even searching. Later I pointed 2 further pirated pages. Pablo ignored the message. There are 1000's of more of less directly pirated pages there.
There are currently 3 active "contributors" at the EO Wiktionary. Me, permanently banned and unable to edit anything except my discussion page full of unproductive bickering with Pablo and appeals than nobody reads. Then Noelekim contributing valuable edits to an EN->EO list-type dictionary. Pablo has even created a few EN pages, (lousily) copying from this dictionary. This contributor doesn't edit any other pages and doesn't participate in discussions and bickering (maybe ey just fears a ban). The last and actually pretty exclusive "contributor" is Pablo "working" hard in order to turn the former EO Wiktionary into another (piracy-powered) DE Wiktionary.
Pablo doesn't appreciate my contributions at all. I have been accused many times for "notoriously destroying other people's work". According to Pablo brainless mass-copying is valuable "work", while fixing such mess by me is "destroying other people's work". I was also working to create a few smarter templates allowing to replace hundreds of primitive mass-created or mass copied-in templates. This was not appreciated either, the work is not finished and I can't continue. There are frequently absurdly many (3 or even 5 or even more) templates for very same thing, just abbreviated and spelled differently ("ark", "Ark", "ark.", "Arkit", "ARK", ...). There are redundant templates copied from other Wiktionaries, spelled in DE, ES, IT and more. Pablo is continuing to "really improve the quality" of the EO Wiktionary by adding further redundant templates. I got also accused for "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates". I had admittedly edited many templates, but none of my edits had the effect according to the accusations. More likely Pablo is angry about the fact that I have skills for editing templates and modules while ey does not have such skills, and solved eir problem with undesirable competition by banning me. But it comes even worse. Some time ago (year 2014) Pablo emself performed a (primitive) edit on a template (EO verb declension table) with effect according to accusations: "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates". Ey even boasted with this edit in the news (year 2017, pretty late news) on the title page (that nobody else can edit). Apparently Pablo has the right to "spread evil neologisms to all pages via templates" while I don't have such a right, because Pablo is the emperor while I am just nothing. Note that I actually have NOT spread any neologisms to all pages via templates. The previous ban was "justified" by among Other Nonsense Complaints About Me Refusing To Use Uppercase Letters. This seems to be a "rule" imported by the DE nationalist Pablo from the DE Wiktionary. I refuse to follow DE rules (Obligation To Begin Every Word With An Uppercase Letter) at the EO Wiktionary.
I have got banned 3 times. The "justifications" given by Pablo are very long but incomprehensible even for people proficient in EO, and accusing me for including but not limited to "acting like a dictator" (Pablo emself either doesn't act like a dictator, or maybe ey does have the right to act like a dictator while I don't), "using lowercase letters" (see above), "notoriously destroying other people's work" (see above), "repeatedly submitting nonsense" (apparently Pablo's own nonsense (this is DE again, not EO) either doesn't count as nonsense, or maybe Pablo has an absolute right to submit unlimited amount of (pirated) nonsense, while I don't have a comparable right), or "spreading evil neologisms to all pages" (see above).
After having banned me the last time, Pablo published a news item about me containing not only false accusations about "spreading evil neologisms to all pages via templates", but also evil sexist insults using male words despite I am not male. I cannot answer to the post denying the shameful nonsense because I am banned.
Pablo got crowned to permanent administrator in year 2010 by just 3 YES votes from totally 3 votes. Those 3 people left the project long ago, Pablo remained and became the permanent absolute emperor at the EO Wiktionary. The last successful election to an administrator was held 2017-Jan, Castelobranco got 4 YES votes from totally 4 votes. The steward restricted Castelobranco's adminship to 1 year pointing to the low amount of votes of 4, while Pablo with 3 votes previously got permanent adminship. Castelobranco left the project 4 months later, eir adminship expired silently 2018-Jan, and Pablo alone is now the absolute emperor for all eternity.
Pablo gives notoriously a f**k about community consensus. About 1/2 year ago I initiated 2 ballots:
Great! But Pablo gives a f**k about it and continues copying complete pages from DE Wiktionary, together with all "needed" templates with DE names. This method apparently "saves work" for Pablo. The SV Wiktionary does not have a single DE template, and non-SV words don't have any translation block (and not images either). Pablo's aggressive DE nationalism is taking over the EO Wiktionary and nobody (except me) dares to protest.
I have repeatedly suggested for Pablo to go back to the DE Wiktionary where ey apparently came from. No result.
There are further problems with Pablo's conduct. In the recycle bin there are almost 1'000 candidates for deletion accumulated during many years. Pablo gives a f**k about deleting them. Ey doesn't archive the discussion page (90% of content is globally distributed spam in EN) either.
On the title page of the EO Wiktionary (that nobody except Pablo can edit) we can read that the EO Wiktionary is supposed to become "the greatest and most complete" dictionary ever. Just now this "greatest and most complete" project ever has the most incapable and arrogant administrator ever, filling the dictionary by (lousily) pirating from over 100 years old low quality dictionaries and other dubious sources (DE Wiktionary), and banning everybody attempting to contribute in a different manner. Pablo has repeatedly boasted with things like "I have been tolerating your" ... (followed by absurd accusations) ... "but now my patience is exhausted". Pablo behaves like the exclusive owner of the EO Wiktionary and a dictator.
There is no reason at all why Pablo should be an administrator. Neither the election 8 years ago (electors went away long ago, and on many wikies all admins have to be reconfirmed evey year), nor merits (the amount of edits is tremendous, but it's >= 99% piracy, Pablo is a manually operating pirating bot), nor the skills (Pablo can barely code templates, and not att all code modules), and last but not least nor the conduct.
On the EO Wiktionary there is a page Administrantoj with section Misuzo_de_la_administrantaj_rajtoj (abuse of the admin rights) saying:
Al administranto povas esti liaj rajto deprenita, se tiu la rajtoj misuzas. Nuntempe povas la admnistrant-statuso esti deprenita aŭ per decido de Jimbo Wales, aŭ pere de decido de Arbitracia komisiono. Laŭ ilia decido oni povas doni malpli altajn punojn, ekz. limigo de uzado de iuj funkcioj. Teĥnike povas la administrantajn rajtoj depreni stevardoj.
An administrator can be deprived of eir rights if ey abuses those rights. Currently the admin-status can be canceled by either Jimbo Wales or the Arbitration Committee. According to their decisions lower punishments can be ruled, for example restricting the usage of some functions. Technically the stewards are responsible for removing administrator rights.
The "Arbitration Committee" is a red link. There doesn't seem to exist any Arbitration Committee on the EO Wiktionary, and the promised "Global Arbitration Committee" doesn't exist yet and probably never will. I tried to appeal via my user page but the template {{unblock}} doesn't work there, Pablo gives a f**k about my appeals and no other admin exists. Then I appealed to the Arbitration Committee on the EN Wikipedia. The result was a rejection by only 8 NO-votes from 8 total votes sending me to "Requests for comment". Nobody seems to read that page, the only one comment posted there sends me to you. During a pause between 2 bans I seized the occasion and posted a proposal to desysop Pablo. Not a single comment or vote came it.
It is extremely easy to create a new account and continue editing from it, or just edit as an IP-address. Unfortunately I would prefer to leave Pablo alone with bad behaviour and avoid coming near to sockpuppetry. Nor I am willing to wait until 2019-Feb-13 when the ban is expected to expire, allowing me to perform a few edits before I get banned again, maybe for 2 years, maybe genuinely permanently.
The EO Wiktionary has been hijacked by a severely misbehaving administrator. There is no local community able to deal with this. There is no exclusive private right for Pablo to own a public wiki. 2 "instances" have sent me to you with the issue. Please desysop Pablo. Thank you. Taylor 49 ( talk) 17:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
If you've never seen a financial bubble pop you should check out bitcoin now. Quick, before it disappears completely. The price is now about $3,735 down over 80% since last December (from about $19,500), down almost 60% (from about $9,000) on Feb.14 when I said it would go to $0, down over 40% (from about $6,500) in the last 2 weeks, down 17% in the last 3 days.
Why is the bubble bursting now? Actually, nothing much new, but the NY Times gives a pretty good summary at 5 Reasons Cryptocurrency Prices Are Plunging Again. The main reason is, as everybody should have known for several years, is that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are useless (according to The Economist). Most cryptocurrencies are also crooked as a dog's hind leg. Professor Nouriel Roubini of NYU says "Bitcoin is the ‘mother of all scams’ and blockchain is most hyped tech ever" . Eight Nobel laureates in economics have long ago said that bitcoin is a bubble. Google, Twitter, Facebook, Bing and half-a-dozen other large websites have banned their ads. China, which accounted for the majority of bitcoin transactions in 2017, has banned individual trading in bitcoin, bitcoin exchanges, and transaction processing ("mining").
But I'm not here just to say "I told you so." Wikipedia has a major problem dealing with financial scams. I've been trying to edit the Bitcoin article for months and found the ownership by bitcoin "fans" impossible to deal with. I did have some initial success putting in the above facts in the article, but they all got pushed to the bottom. You'd think when 8 Nobel laureates say that the bitcoin market is a bubble, that would be important enough to put into the article's lede. Sorry, but that can't be done on Wikipedia. And it must have cost our readers $10 million this year at a minimum.
tldr; the bitcoin bubble has popped, Wikipedia has trouble with financial scam articles, I told you so.
Smallbones( smalltalk) 23:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for making the most important site on the internet for research, useful for seeing information and great with its sources. WhatShouldBeDoneHmm ( talk) 23:53, 30 November 2018 (UTC) |