This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
You have accused me of making only unfavorable edits on pages impinging the subject of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I appreciate that you have a point of view that you feel compelled to share, including accusations of my person apparently. But you are dead wrong in your accusation of me. I doubt you have read every edit I have made in order to make the absurd allegation you do. Nevertheless, you are wrong. Many occasions I have removed unfavorable edits based on one thing and one thing alone: the information was not verified. This is the criteria for encyclopedic content. Also, I have added material such as the purpose and function of the Watchtower’s Hospital Information Services Department expressing that this is a beneficial thing. It is sad that you choose to make derogatory accusations of editors, particularly when these are demonstrably false. You should be ashamed of yourself!!! I advise any editor working on an encyclopedic work to concentrate their skills not on pro or con, but on verifiability. Information that is verifiable is good information.-- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 15:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your helping with style and grammar. But the edit of the refs. at 13:26 in the 'Death' section went over my head. All I could tell the it changed from yellow to green. What was the change? -- Brotherlawrence ( talk) 19:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Following a request at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal i have accepted a case based apon edits and users concerned with the page " New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures". The following have been notified about this:
I would request that throughout this case, all users remain civil and that editing to the page concerned is kept to a minimum. I hope that everything can be sorted as smoothly as possible. Seddon69 ( talk) 23:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jeffro77, regarding the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures article - what concerns, if any, do you have with current version? Addhoc ( talk) 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Should the articles Legal instruments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Watchtower Society, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, International Bible Students Association be merged? They are mostly short and would, in my opinion, be more clarified if discussed together in one article. Maybe a discussion is needed. No one seems to have been interested in such a discussion yet. Summer Song ( talk) 22:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And what do you think about merging these two articles? Kingdom Melodies and Kingdom songs Summer Song ( talk) 22:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77: I have created a sub-user page to continue editing the article on the NWT.
You know the current circumstance of dispute. It is understandable that you have not offered public comment, and I am neither asking that you do so nor that you continue refraining. But, if you want, any feedback on my page set up for continuing the work of improving this article would be appreciated. You understand Wikipedia policy, and have demonstrated a competent perspective on appropriate presentation and verification. Despite my intention of working to improve this article, we both know feedback you offer on this sub-user page could be construed one way or another regarding the current dispute. Hence, if you decline my invitation it is understandable. Regardless, whether you like it or hate it, perhaps something in my editing will offer ideas for later editing to improve the Wikipedia article.-- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 19:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution to my talk page. Then, what do you think POV edits? I don't write that JW's view is right. Jehovah's Witnesses don't think forming voluntary relationships to UN is against JW doctrine. If it is true, JW don't form voluntary relationships with governments when disasters occur. You should be careful of the fact that JW also believe U.S. & U.K government are wild beast. If JW couldn't take hand in U.S. & U.K. govenment, how would they help members of disaster victims? JW think it is Biblical requirement to help needy members.(James 2:15-17,NWT) I think Wikipedia's current statement that critics view is the fact is POV. 125.193.23.145 ( talk) 04:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you edit. The previous addition to the text was untrue, malevolent and innappropriate. Thanks for your kind attention to detail.-- JW-somewhere ( talk) 12:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with restore font 'for consistency', but disagree on appearance of typefaces. There must be a better way of representing Hebrew characters. However, I'm not going to engage in a back and forth edit/re-edit exercise. Regards.
JW-somewhere (
talk)
16:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply on my talk page. I might look up your link/reference. Thanks for taking the trouble. Regards.-- JW-somewhere ( talk) 02:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77 I have watched the article for over a year, "self-Identifies as Christian" is as close as one can get to neutral on the subject. My personal beliefs aside, self identification as Christian is truthful, accurate and cannot be disputed whatsoever. I think it is a good wording. What are your thoughts? Jesse Jaimes ( talk) 16:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I added the blank line between the section headings and content because this seems to be the overwhelming Wikipedia format standard.
The Wikipedia Manual of Style is neutral, with no preference either way.
WP:Mos: "Spaces above and below headings are optional. Only two or more line-spaces above and below will change the appearance by adding more white space."
Personally I agree with the majority usage. Yes, for one edit it will require on to look down one line to compare text, but after that I believe that it makes the section headings and content easier to read and scan quickly. -- Editor2020 ( talk) 01:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)->
ps. If if bugs you, I'll try to avoid it on pages you contribute to.
Good change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editor2020 ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Arbitrator Newyorkbrad has requested clarification on whether mediation has been successful. Is arbitration still required? Could you please consider adding a short statement at WP:RFAR within the next 12-14hrs, with a concise update (one or two sentences) regarding your level of satisfaction of the resulting article, and whether the user conduct issues have abated.
If there are outstanding content issues, please list them at the talk page. John Vandenberg ( talk) 05:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/New World Translation/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/New World Translation/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro: I note your remarks to editor Jayvdb. Since I do not invoke my membership in the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses as an authoritative basis for any edits I have provided on Wikipedia, I fail to understand why the veracity of this claim of membership is an issue that should impede discussions between two editors with a common interest (Jehovah’s Witnesses). Nevertheless, for my benefit it would be appreciated were you to expand a bit on your suggestion that I insert negative slants by “highlighting negative truths and ignoring positive truths.” Do you make this observation based on review of everything I have submitted on subjects impinging the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or based on a selective review of what I have submitted? In either case, it would be appreciated were you to share a couple of examples of what you speak. My intention is to present whatever is the fact of a matter without regard for how this (or these) is perceived in terms of pro or con. -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This is to announce a newly refurbished web site at jwtruth.com.
This site intends to work as a clearing house of information about the WTS and its religious abuses. The site will also aid activists who want the WTS to stop its religious abuses.
I was asked by the administrators of jwtruth.com to make this introduction. I agreed after I was convinced this group of individuals will only present and archive information that is true.
Now I invite readers here to examine the new jwtruth.com and make up your own minds about the material there and whether you want to become more involved with issues affecting the people of Jehovah’s Witnesses by helping to hinder, if not stop, the WTS’ religious abuses.
As you ponder this new web site remember that a whole new generation of children is growing up under the WTS’ religious hierarchical oligarchy and without a doubt these too will face the same nightmares most of us did of an Armageddon held over their heads as recompense for failure to live perfect little lives within the Kingdom Hall and Watchtowerdom.
Jeffro77: I have never argued that the Watchtower organization sanctions (approves of) my work as Marvin Shilmer. There is a distinction between the Watchtower organization and the people making up Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is not newsworthy that the Watchtower organization would undoubtedly take steps to disfellowship me were it to know my identity. I have said as much myself on more than a few occasions. This does not mean I am not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It only means my acts would be punished by the current leadership of the Watchtower organization, or at least by some of them. But, then, this is not newsworthy, either. What they disfellowship for today they did not disfellowship for yesterday, and will not disfellowship for tomorrow. I do not measure my standing as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses by current Watchtower dogma. Rather, I measure it by how I am accepted by the community of Jehovah’s Witnesses that know me in person, including the extensive number perfectly well aware of my work as Marvin Shilmer. Among the latter is the whole body of elders in my current congregation, not that it is any of your business. You neither know me personally nor are fully aware of my work.
Now, digressing back to the subject, it would be appreciated were you to expand a bit on your suggestion that I insert negative slants by “highlighting negative truths and ignoring positive truths.” Do you make this observation based on review of everything I have submitted on subjects impinging the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or based on a selective review of what I have submitted?
Since you are willing to talk about me to others, it would be very much appreciated if you would talk with me about the same issue(s). For your information, when I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses it was considered a badge of honor to speak up for what it true no matter the consequences. What you quote of me above is precisely that. My religious disposition as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses compels that I put my worship of God ahead of any man, group of men, or organization. In my experience, this is a commonly held conviction voiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, though each one decides when, where and how to manifest it regarding the Watchtower organization itself. -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Edited to add: In your entry on the NWT Talk page. 9 January. 8:03am you write, “Various edits of Marvin's over at jehovahs-witness.com do reveal him to have a bias. This is not a problem in itself, as editors are naturally entitled to their own views, and this in itself does not invalidate a person from making edits when those edits are verifiable. However making only unfavourable [true] edits, rather than a balance of edits, is very telling, and quite disappointing.”
I responded to this statement of yours on your talk page and on the NWT talk page. To this day you have not substantiated your allegation of me, yet you persist in derogatory gossip of my person. Why do you do this? -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77: Perhaps this is an easier question for you to answer:
Is it okay with you for me to freely and without notice tell other editors here in full public view that you make only unfavorable true edits rather than a balance of edits, and that you highlight negative truths an ignore positive truths, and then refuse to substantiate my allegations in discussion directly with you, the victim of the malicious gossip? -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
This arguments is tedious and pointless. Marvin does not understand, or does not wish to acknowledge, the bias that becomes apparent by examining his edits over a period of time. If any editor wishes, just review Marvin's edits to confirm that they are almost always used to highlight negative or controversial points about Jehovah's Witnesses.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding to the Mwai Kibaki article, I changed the date format from 15 November to November 15 because most of the date links of Mwai Kibaki including his birth date are in mm/dd/yy not in dd/mm/yy format and there is no consensus for the date format in Kenya related-articles.-- Joseph Solis in Australia ( talk) 09:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, no problem. I could tell it was a genuine mistake so I didn't bother with leaving a "stop it, you page blanking vandal!" message. Many's the time I too have hit the submit button only to realise I've made a botch of it! Thank goodness for page histories. ~ Matticus U C 15:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? -- Explodicle ( talk) 14:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you HELP me? Please see this. Mikhailov Kusserow ( talk) 07:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
You have accused me of making only unfavorable edits on pages impinging the subject of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I appreciate that you have a point of view that you feel compelled to share, including accusations of my person apparently. But you are dead wrong in your accusation of me. I doubt you have read every edit I have made in order to make the absurd allegation you do. Nevertheless, you are wrong. Many occasions I have removed unfavorable edits based on one thing and one thing alone: the information was not verified. This is the criteria for encyclopedic content. Also, I have added material such as the purpose and function of the Watchtower’s Hospital Information Services Department expressing that this is a beneficial thing. It is sad that you choose to make derogatory accusations of editors, particularly when these are demonstrably false. You should be ashamed of yourself!!! I advise any editor working on an encyclopedic work to concentrate their skills not on pro or con, but on verifiability. Information that is verifiable is good information.-- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 15:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your helping with style and grammar. But the edit of the refs. at 13:26 in the 'Death' section went over my head. All I could tell the it changed from yellow to green. What was the change? -- Brotherlawrence ( talk) 19:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Following a request at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal i have accepted a case based apon edits and users concerned with the page " New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures". The following have been notified about this:
I would request that throughout this case, all users remain civil and that editing to the page concerned is kept to a minimum. I hope that everything can be sorted as smoothly as possible. Seddon69 ( talk) 23:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jeffro77, regarding the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures article - what concerns, if any, do you have with current version? Addhoc ( talk) 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Should the articles Legal instruments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Watchtower Society, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, International Bible Students Association be merged? They are mostly short and would, in my opinion, be more clarified if discussed together in one article. Maybe a discussion is needed. No one seems to have been interested in such a discussion yet. Summer Song ( talk) 22:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And what do you think about merging these two articles? Kingdom Melodies and Kingdom songs Summer Song ( talk) 22:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77: I have created a sub-user page to continue editing the article on the NWT.
You know the current circumstance of dispute. It is understandable that you have not offered public comment, and I am neither asking that you do so nor that you continue refraining. But, if you want, any feedback on my page set up for continuing the work of improving this article would be appreciated. You understand Wikipedia policy, and have demonstrated a competent perspective on appropriate presentation and verification. Despite my intention of working to improve this article, we both know feedback you offer on this sub-user page could be construed one way or another regarding the current dispute. Hence, if you decline my invitation it is understandable. Regardless, whether you like it or hate it, perhaps something in my editing will offer ideas for later editing to improve the Wikipedia article.-- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 19:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution to my talk page. Then, what do you think POV edits? I don't write that JW's view is right. Jehovah's Witnesses don't think forming voluntary relationships to UN is against JW doctrine. If it is true, JW don't form voluntary relationships with governments when disasters occur. You should be careful of the fact that JW also believe U.S. & U.K government are wild beast. If JW couldn't take hand in U.S. & U.K. govenment, how would they help members of disaster victims? JW think it is Biblical requirement to help needy members.(James 2:15-17,NWT) I think Wikipedia's current statement that critics view is the fact is POV. 125.193.23.145 ( talk) 04:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you edit. The previous addition to the text was untrue, malevolent and innappropriate. Thanks for your kind attention to detail.-- JW-somewhere ( talk) 12:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with restore font 'for consistency', but disagree on appearance of typefaces. There must be a better way of representing Hebrew characters. However, I'm not going to engage in a back and forth edit/re-edit exercise. Regards.
JW-somewhere (
talk)
16:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply on my talk page. I might look up your link/reference. Thanks for taking the trouble. Regards.-- JW-somewhere ( talk) 02:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77 I have watched the article for over a year, "self-Identifies as Christian" is as close as one can get to neutral on the subject. My personal beliefs aside, self identification as Christian is truthful, accurate and cannot be disputed whatsoever. I think it is a good wording. What are your thoughts? Jesse Jaimes ( talk) 16:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I added the blank line between the section headings and content because this seems to be the overwhelming Wikipedia format standard.
The Wikipedia Manual of Style is neutral, with no preference either way.
WP:Mos: "Spaces above and below headings are optional. Only two or more line-spaces above and below will change the appearance by adding more white space."
Personally I agree with the majority usage. Yes, for one edit it will require on to look down one line to compare text, but after that I believe that it makes the section headings and content easier to read and scan quickly. -- Editor2020 ( talk) 01:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)->
ps. If if bugs you, I'll try to avoid it on pages you contribute to.
Good change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editor2020 ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Arbitrator Newyorkbrad has requested clarification on whether mediation has been successful. Is arbitration still required? Could you please consider adding a short statement at WP:RFAR within the next 12-14hrs, with a concise update (one or two sentences) regarding your level of satisfaction of the resulting article, and whether the user conduct issues have abated.
If there are outstanding content issues, please list them at the talk page. John Vandenberg ( talk) 05:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/New World Translation/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/New World Translation/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, John Vandenberg ( talk) 00:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro: I note your remarks to editor Jayvdb. Since I do not invoke my membership in the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses as an authoritative basis for any edits I have provided on Wikipedia, I fail to understand why the veracity of this claim of membership is an issue that should impede discussions between two editors with a common interest (Jehovah’s Witnesses). Nevertheless, for my benefit it would be appreciated were you to expand a bit on your suggestion that I insert negative slants by “highlighting negative truths and ignoring positive truths.” Do you make this observation based on review of everything I have submitted on subjects impinging the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or based on a selective review of what I have submitted? In either case, it would be appreciated were you to share a couple of examples of what you speak. My intention is to present whatever is the fact of a matter without regard for how this (or these) is perceived in terms of pro or con. -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This is to announce a newly refurbished web site at jwtruth.com.
This site intends to work as a clearing house of information about the WTS and its religious abuses. The site will also aid activists who want the WTS to stop its religious abuses.
I was asked by the administrators of jwtruth.com to make this introduction. I agreed after I was convinced this group of individuals will only present and archive information that is true.
Now I invite readers here to examine the new jwtruth.com and make up your own minds about the material there and whether you want to become more involved with issues affecting the people of Jehovah’s Witnesses by helping to hinder, if not stop, the WTS’ religious abuses.
As you ponder this new web site remember that a whole new generation of children is growing up under the WTS’ religious hierarchical oligarchy and without a doubt these too will face the same nightmares most of us did of an Armageddon held over their heads as recompense for failure to live perfect little lives within the Kingdom Hall and Watchtowerdom.
Jeffro77: I have never argued that the Watchtower organization sanctions (approves of) my work as Marvin Shilmer. There is a distinction between the Watchtower organization and the people making up Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is not newsworthy that the Watchtower organization would undoubtedly take steps to disfellowship me were it to know my identity. I have said as much myself on more than a few occasions. This does not mean I am not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It only means my acts would be punished by the current leadership of the Watchtower organization, or at least by some of them. But, then, this is not newsworthy, either. What they disfellowship for today they did not disfellowship for yesterday, and will not disfellowship for tomorrow. I do not measure my standing as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses by current Watchtower dogma. Rather, I measure it by how I am accepted by the community of Jehovah’s Witnesses that know me in person, including the extensive number perfectly well aware of my work as Marvin Shilmer. Among the latter is the whole body of elders in my current congregation, not that it is any of your business. You neither know me personally nor are fully aware of my work.
Now, digressing back to the subject, it would be appreciated were you to expand a bit on your suggestion that I insert negative slants by “highlighting negative truths and ignoring positive truths.” Do you make this observation based on review of everything I have submitted on subjects impinging the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or based on a selective review of what I have submitted?
Since you are willing to talk about me to others, it would be very much appreciated if you would talk with me about the same issue(s). For your information, when I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses it was considered a badge of honor to speak up for what it true no matter the consequences. What you quote of me above is precisely that. My religious disposition as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses compels that I put my worship of God ahead of any man, group of men, or organization. In my experience, this is a commonly held conviction voiced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, though each one decides when, where and how to manifest it regarding the Watchtower organization itself. -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Edited to add: In your entry on the NWT Talk page. 9 January. 8:03am you write, “Various edits of Marvin's over at jehovahs-witness.com do reveal him to have a bias. This is not a problem in itself, as editors are naturally entitled to their own views, and this in itself does not invalidate a person from making edits when those edits are verifiable. However making only unfavourable [true] edits, rather than a balance of edits, is very telling, and quite disappointing.”
I responded to this statement of yours on your talk page and on the NWT talk page. To this day you have not substantiated your allegation of me, yet you persist in derogatory gossip of my person. Why do you do this? -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jeffro77: Perhaps this is an easier question for you to answer:
Is it okay with you for me to freely and without notice tell other editors here in full public view that you make only unfavorable true edits rather than a balance of edits, and that you highlight negative truths an ignore positive truths, and then refuse to substantiate my allegations in discussion directly with you, the victim of the malicious gossip? -- Marvin Shilmer ( talk) 02:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
This arguments is tedious and pointless. Marvin does not understand, or does not wish to acknowledge, the bias that becomes apparent by examining his edits over a period of time. If any editor wishes, just review Marvin's edits to confirm that they are almost always used to highlight negative or controversial points about Jehovah's Witnesses.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding to the Mwai Kibaki article, I changed the date format from 15 November to November 15 because most of the date links of Mwai Kibaki including his birth date are in mm/dd/yy not in dd/mm/yy format and there is no consensus for the date format in Kenya related-articles.-- Joseph Solis in Australia ( talk) 09:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, no problem. I could tell it was a genuine mistake so I didn't bother with leaving a "stop it, you page blanking vandal!" message. Many's the time I too have hit the submit button only to realise I've made a botch of it! Thank goodness for page histories. ~ Matticus U C 15:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? -- Explodicle ( talk) 14:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you HELP me? Please see this. Mikhailov Kusserow ( talk) 07:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)