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D. J. Bracey
(talk)
19:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
My apologies to all of you on behalf of christians everywhere. It is christian's like Gastrich that make the rest of us ashamed to be known by that distinction. Personally I stopped calling myself a christian a long time ago, I've called myself a follower of Christ for quite a few years now. I am actively involved in the ministry (and I don't mean a web-based ministry) and it shames me and hurts me deeply to see the rhetoric and judgemental-ism that Gastrich is passing off as characteristics of Christianity. If any of you are trying to find the truth of Christ, please don't pay any attention to any edits by Jason Gastrich, he gives GOOD Christians a BAD name. -- Icj tlc 17:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- Gastrich has quite a history, but don't worry. Most of us are astute enough and have been around enough to know that not all Christians behave as he does. In fact, I'd say that most do not. Furthermore, quite a few of us don't think he's a Christian, at all, and he has serious psychological issues, not to mention issues with maturity. And unlike Gastrich, when I say "us" and "we," I can name names. I'd add that you might expect him to respond to you with something like "have we met" or you'd be derided for criticizing him before introducing yourself, but he won't do that, now that I've pointed it out. WarriorScribe 18:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Jtkiefer T | C | @ ---- 23:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- You have been blocked for 24 hours for personal attacks and vandalism. Jtkiefer T | C | @ ---- 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
All right, I have officially been block by an administrator! I guess I've made it now! Just goes to show that if you "attack" a whiny little control freak ( User:Jason Gastrich)that he will go running to admin and they will execute their awesome powers by blocking you for a 24 hour period...I wonder if she even looked at my "vandalism" before she blocked me? Probably not, doesn't matter cause she's got all the power, and I am just a little 'pedian! Icj tlc 16:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- 23:27, 29 December 2005, Jtkiefer blocked Icj_tlc (expires 23:27, 30 December 2005) (contribs) (attacks and vandalism)
I see you want to give me Christian instruction, but I have seen nothing Christian from you. Can you please tell me about your faith, what Christ means to you, your conversion, and your success in ministry? These are things I like to know from people when they tell me they are a brother in Christ. All I do know is that you were suspended for 24 hours for vandalism and personal attacks on my talk page. Please let me know a bit more about you (e.g. past, present, ministry, personal info, etc.). You can start with your name. -- Jason Gastrich 00:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- In case anyone is wondering what this is all about, Gastrich is responding to Craig's comments here. Two things are of note. One is that I have to wonder how much effort it would take to look at the user page and get a name. And two? Well, I guess we won't be hearing Gastrich explain what Jesus would do in this case...
- It's all yours, Craig. Have at...and good luck. WarriorScribe 00:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- And, by now, you've discovered that Gastrich has removed your critical comments and those that expose his mistakes from his "talk" page, refusing to respond to any of them.
- There are several of, all of whom have had significant experience interacting with Gastrich or opposing him, who agree that he has some developmental issues. He's never quite grown out of certain juvenile traits that the rest of us leave behind during adolescence. That has been apparent during the arguments about the Bilbo article, as well as many that have come before. Gastrich also has a habit of ignoring, deleting, and obscuring facts about his personal heroes (or himself), while turning rumors and innuendos about people he doesn't like (or with whom he has had confrontations) into "facts." His presence on Wikipedia is clearly to push his own, peculiar POV, and we've already seen several examples of that. I'm gathering more for my case against him, even as this is being entered on the talk page.
- As a Christian, you face a particular challenge in Gastrich, who pretty much believes that anything that he does to advance his agenda is okay because he's "once-saved-always-saved." He's also played the same game with other Christians as he is doing with you; and isn't it odd that you have to show him your Christianity--he sees nothing "Christian" about you. He's already shown that he is a complete failure as a Christian minister, but to dodge that, he reverses the challenge.
- Like I said...good luck. WarriorScribe 21:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- P.S., Do let us know if, with respect to the Mark Bilbo article (or anything else, controversial, going on here at Wikipedia involving him), he ever answers your "what would Jesus do?" question. WarriorScribe 21:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Stop Jason.
- 1. There is no "Admin" Bonaparte, as has already been pointed out. Bonaparte is a mediator, not an Admin.
- 2. NO WHERE did I say I wanted to give you Christian instruction, you are like one of the pharisees that believe they know everything and therefore cannot be instructed.
- 3. My faith is my faith. That's not up for public speculation or debate by people that consider themselves "ministers" because they have a website.
- 4. I highly doubt that you want to know my personal info because I am a brother in Christ. You are trying to bait me into an argument as you have done so many times with other people. It's not going to work.
- 5. I posted no vandalism or personal attacks on your talk page, I merely appologized to everyone you have offended in the name of Christ. In your contorted little mind, you viewed this as a personal attack and ran to an admin. In case you haven't noticed 2 of your "enemies" (WarriorScribe and myself) have recently reverted true vandalism of your talk page by User Bible John.
- 6. If you really want personal information from me, look at my user page. My name and email address have been on there since the day I created my account. (Which reminds me, your email address is no where to be found, if I want to email you, I have to follow a link to your website.) Also you can find my credentials here...[www.tlc-rocks.org]
- As I said before Jason, I don't believe WikiPedia should be used as a platform for ANYONE (including myself) to preach there beliefs, you can use WikiChristian or that other little wiki you've started for that. If you want to continue this, I recommend you email me as I will not respond to any more of your messages either here or on my talk page. Yours in Christ. Icj tlc 13:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes is true. I am mediator. And is also true that you are almost near to reach an agreement. Is just a matter of trust. It won't be easy if you don't start to collaborate and to understand each other. I am here to help you to communicate you better. You should try harder to reach a compromise. I think you can do it by starting from what has benn propose on the talk page.
Bonaparte
talk
19:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Bonaparte, there is no resolution as of yet, you gave a deadline of 01/02/06. Right now things on that page are peaceful because Jason Gastrich hasn't been online for a while. As soon as he comes back on line, he's going to start his whining again about everyone reverting his edits and going contrary to your "ruling." As far as he's concerned, once you agreed with him on his second paragraph, he won. He has repeated this over and over, and tells everyone that an Admin has made a ruling. Watch, as soon as he logs back on he's going to go in there and revert it to his last entry and than it's going to start all over again. He needs to be booted perm. He does nothing but spout his rhetoric, conspiracy theories, and POV.
Icj tlc
20:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Please. You have to trust the other users and Assume Good Faith. Now, please don't worry because I'm watching his moves but you also have to find a compromise. Bonaparte talk 20:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Bonaparte, there is no resolution as of yet, you gave a deadline of 01/02/06. Right now things on that page are peaceful because Jason Gastrich hasn't been online for a while. As soon as he comes back on line, he's going to start his whining again about everyone reverting his edits and going contrary to your "ruling." As far as he's concerned, once you agreed with him on his second paragraph, he won. He has repeated this over and over, and tells everyone that an Admin has made a ruling. Watch, as soon as he logs back on he's going to go in there and revert it to his last entry and than it's going to start all over again. He needs to be booted perm. He does nothing but spout his rhetoric, conspiracy theories, and POV.
Icj tlc
20:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes is true. I am mediator. And is also true that you are almost near to reach an agreement. Is just a matter of trust. It won't be easy if you don't start to collaborate and to understand each other. I am here to help you to communicate you better. You should try harder to reach a compromise. I think you can do it by starting from what has benn propose on the talk page.
Bonaparte
talk
19:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I read your message. Stop reposting it in my talk page. Based on your childish behavior and treatment of me, at this time, I have no desire to talk to you via email. -- Jason Gastrich 22:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I guess that's what "Jesus would do." WarriorScribe 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely. And call his church and tell them about his behavior. This man has filed a mediation request to get me kicked off Wikipedia, so yeah, at this time, I don't want to talk to him. I will talk to his head pastor, though. -- Jason Gastrich 22:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- So the problem is that Gastrich doesn't want to be kicked off Wikipedia. Hmmm...well, there are solutions to that other than whining, I should think... WarriorScribe 23:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey Jason, you might want to take a good look at my name and my head pastor's name, don't they look a little familiar. That's right he's my father and I highly doubt he will agree with you. Especially on doctrine. As far as we are concerned, Jesus came to heal, not hurt, which is all you can seem to do. I never filed a request to get you kicked off of Wikipedia, I have reccomended that you be permanently banned, but haven't figured out how to request it yet. Maybe I should look under WikiNusance or WikiBigot or WikiNazi. Icj tlc 23:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Really? That's funny. I don't know you at all and all I keep asking you to do is leave me alone. I'm sorry if that hurts you, but if you didn't want me to avoid you, then you shouldn't be acting the way you've been acting. -- Jason Gastrich 23:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- We appear to have an answer. Gastrich is doing what "Jesus would do." That was my point, after all, and Gastrich's response? "Absolutely." Jesus would declare your behavior "childish," protest your "treatment of" him, and refuse to communicate with you.
- According to Gastrich, David Jeremiah, at Shadow Mountain, is the pastor of his "home church." The number there is 619-440-1802. It's been a while since I attended what was then "Scott Memorial Baptist Church," and no doubt, David is much busier these days. However, I suspect that he'd be willing to listen to whatever you might have to say, since Gastrich's latest juvenile bit is about "tattling" on you to your pastor. You might also give Miles McPherson a call at The Rock, 619-223-3863.
- And since your pastor is also your father, let me know if you want to take it to the "I'm telling your daddy" level, as he may do. That should be interesting. WarriorScribe 23:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have a responsibilty to Christ to make sure that you are not the image people have of him! Icj tlc 23:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Give me a break. If you had any responsibility to Christ, then this wouldn't like like this. Please prayerfully consider doing something online for the cause of Christ; besides bothering me. -- Jason Gastrich 23:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Anytime a Christian works to get his "own house in order," he's working for the "cause of Christ." Works for me. WarriorScribe 23:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should consider doing something in the real world for God, instead of hiding behind your website "ministry!" When is the last time you helped convert someone to the Lord in person? Or do something online for Him to, like quitting WikiPedia? And as far as my contributions, let's just call it "Defending the Faith!" Icj tlc 23:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, speaking as a former Christian (and quite devout in my day), while I can see some problems with Craig's approach, it's certainly more "Christ-like" than Gastrich's. According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus reserved some of his strongest language for the hypocrites and religious phonies of his day. Since Craig isn't Jesus, I think we can give him some slack for not getting it quite right... WarriorScribe 23:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your comment on the main user page, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Gastrich is all about silencing his opposition rather than intelligently discussing anything. He's even taken at least one person to court...that we know about, anyway...see DurangoBill.com for details. He's had web sites shut down, and he sent Jason Harvestdancer's parents a letter complaining about his (Harvestdancer's) participation in Usenet forums, allegedly harassing Gastrich. Problem is that Harvestdancer is also an adult.
Steve Winter, another loud-mouthed, self-ordained "minister back east, does similar stuff. He calls parents, Internet providers, and even employers if someone challenges him in public, and he even files for harassment charges. None of it ever comes to anything, but guys like that figure that if they can be enough of a pain in the butt, they can discourage critics. The problem is that it just exposes them for the cowards that they are. WarriorScribe 02:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, Gastrich sent my father a letter. He claimed he didn't know that I'm an adult. So, it seems you've joined the ranks of those who, because they respect truth, are anti-god. If you look on Here, you'll find a link to a very long email discussion he and I had. Good luck. Harvestdancer 03:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- There's no reason for you to "go" anywhere. It is not harassment to argue with somebody online. That's absurd on its face and Gastrich is way out of line to be calling people up and trying to scare them off the Wikipedia. I'm sure you upset him greatly since you upset his defense that all opposition to him is just from nasty old atheists who hate Jesus. This is a public, open forum and you have as much right to be here as he does. Having an argument online is not anywhere near harrassment. If it were, Gastrich and I would have adjoining cells! Mark K. Bilbo 02:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Misread your message, I thought you were talking about taking a "break" because he was harrassing you offline. Either way, I think a user conduct RfC should be filed on this. Gastrich has no business calling people at home to scare them off the Wiki. Mark K. Bilbo 02:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest ignoring him in real life but not in wikipedia. David D. (Talk) 03:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- While I wouldn't worry that he's a "threat," of any kind, I don't agree with ignoring the behavior. This isn't the first time Gastrich has pulled a stunt like this, taking to trying to scare people off some online disagreement by harassing them offline. He's trying to influence the Wiki with underhanded tactics. Like his attempt to astroturf the AfD vote over his vanity page (and threatening to do it again by the way). Ironic isn't it? Given what he's been whining about lately? Which is worse? Using "naughty words" on Usenet or calling people on the phone trying to intimidate them from posting at all? Hm... Mark K. Bilbo 04:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable point. It's mind blowing how some so-called Christians behave these days. David D. (Talk) 04:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Have to agree. Gastrich will almost certainly do as he says--increase his efforts, but it's not to spread the Gospel. Having been exposed as much as he has, he's hurting more than he'll admit, and so he has to keep trying to get those gullible people out there to contribute. There are plenty of them. I guess he just wants his "fair share." WarriorScribe 04:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I see on the Gastrich talk page that he's at it again. I guess he doesn't mind a bit of disingenuousness (e.g., claiming that you said you were a "pastor" when he knows full well that you are more specific, i.e., you're a "youth pastor," which is a different thing). But here, since he'll almost certainly immediately delete them from his page, are my responses to some of the, eh, figments of his imagination:
- Gastrich: If you still want to threaten me (e.g. you saying above "your time is short"), consider "WarriorScribe" (Dave Horn). He has been trolling me and trying to hurt me and my ministry for quite awhile. What good has it done? I'll sum it up right here: he has been able to revert 3 Wikipedia entries and encourage 3 unbelievers in their desire to reject God and me.
- Notice the "reject God and me" bit. That's quite revealing.
- I'm not clear what three people he has in mind (and he won't name them), but I happen to know quite a few more who haven't been impressed with his antics, and it goes well beyond three. But I would submit to you that he's right on one score. It really isn't what I'm doing that's causing people to be repelled by him. It's what he's doing.
- I haven't been keeping track of the number of "reverts" that I have done in Wikipedia, but I'll grant it hasn't been many, if only because I haven't, comparatively speaking, made that many edits. I don't think that any of Gastrich's editings, once surveyed, corrected, and nPOV'd by me, have survived. In short, most of my edits have stood up. I exposed and fixed POV pushing in the Hovind and Wilkinson articles, just in the last couple of days. So far, the Bilbo edits have stood up, I removed his spam link from the Steeling the Mind page, as well as a spam link removed from the Freedom From Religion article. I've helped fix the article about the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and I've made a number of other corrections, anonymously, that have also remained. In short, I've helped defeat Gastrich's attempts at POV pushing on nearly every article that I have touched. Gastrich's boasting is, as usual, empty.
- I wanted to mention this, but I also wanted to hurry up and finish my rebuttal and so I forgot (poor Craig is going to need to archive his page sooner than most!). Gastrich boasts about the relative number of reverts, but I think it's of note to point out, in rebuttal, that the overwhelming majority of "edits" and "contributions" by Gastrich leave nothing to revert. Hundreds and hundreds of categorizations of people as "atheists" "ministers," "writers" and so on don't provide an opportunity to review and revert. There's no substance. With respect to this boast of Gastrich's, it's a disingenuous argument.
- In the meantime, since he began his quest, by the grace and blessing of God and my Savior Jesus Christ, jcsm.org has grown by nearly 100,000 web pages...
- Gastrich has always been impressed with web page counts, but copying someone else's work and formatting it and putting under one's own domain is hardly something about which a person should boast.
- ...our yearly income has doubled from 2004 to 2005, our subscribers for the weekly devotions have increased by about 5 people every day...
- These are more boasts about numbers and are completely unverifiable. Gastrich often boasts like this, but at the moment, I happen to know that his ministry is not near as successful as he'd like to claim. Still, if his income is that much more, he should be able to give more than $100 (increased from $84) a month to his African charities, and Lenny Flank should be able to get a Form 990 from him. I guess we'll find out all of these things, but keep in mind that Gastrich is well-known for some rather creative thinking when it comes to his "success," and it's generally discovered to be nothing more than juvenile boasting, inflated and made up to make himself seem more powerful and important.
- ...we've launched http://wiki4christ.com, http://believeandrepent.com, http://yecs.org, http://macsd.org, http://skepticsannotatedbible.org, etc.
- Of these, only wiki4christ is new since I started opposing Gastrich's efforts. This is a bold-faced lie, here. All of these domains and sites were already in existence when he and we first encountered one-another in talk.origins, and I challenged him on an issue of evolution, from which he ran, by the way.
- I've been faithful with JCSM's weekly devotions, text and audio...
- I don't know what "been faithful" means other than that he puts these things out on a regular basis (but has been late a few times). Sounds like another empty boast to me. Ever since taking on Gastrich, I've completed two more academic credentials and commenced on a doctorate, completed a screenplay and a novel, and put them on the market, and started a business. What does that all m ean? Not a thing.
- I've launched the National Life Journal, and on and on and on.
- There's no "on and on and on." That's pretty much it. He's run through the litany. During the same period, Gastrich started and stopped two other Google groups about himself and his "ministry," was chased from Usenet posting (by his own bad behavior, really) and from the San Diego area. He lost a court case, he had a divorce filing and he's moved at least three times. I suppose that I can go "on and on and on," too.
- So, "WarriorScribe"/Dave Horn (who will be trolling me, reading, and replying here any minute), Icj tlc, and anyone else who doesn't like me, rest assured that your efforts to troll me and spread hate...
- Gastrich has been told a number of times that no one hates him, though I admit to finding him and his kind loathsome and parasitic.
- ...and slander against me...
- Slander is, in effect, lying. Gastrich has never shown any lies on the part of his opponents, while he has been caught in several. I can certainly list them, "on and on and on..."
- ...have only done what those sorts of things have always done and will always do: fueled me to stay up later, to work even harder, and to do everything I possibly can to further the cause of Christ into this hungry world.
- The problem is that, given Gastrich's attitude and clear efforts at self-promotion, you won't find more than a couple of people anywhere who believe this. What he's really trying to do is take advantage of the sincere beliefs of others so that he can profit from it. I think that the fact that he had to go out and get a job says something about how "successful" the "ministry" has been. WarriorScribe 04:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I love this one:
- Gastrich: "These are things that your pastor (your Dad, now I find)..."
"Now I find?" As if you hadn't told him that before he made the call...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorScribe ( talk • contribs)
- Well, about the only thing I find significant about the explosion on his talk page is he knows he's been caught pulling one of his underhanded little tricks and is desparately trying to slather a Jesus veneer over it. Mark K. Bilbo 04:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Of course...and we've seen it all, before. The same meaningless boasting, the same ranting, and the same self-importance. He pulled it at Infidel Guy, he's tried it at least one other time here, as I recall, and we're seeing it again..the same script. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. WarriorScribe 04:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- To be fair Jason has been ministering to the homeless. As he has said in the past.
- "Do something to bless someone you don't know. Here is one way you could do this. Bring a snack in your car and give it to a homeless person. In my city, homeless people hold signs and stand by the road. It's very easy to hand them a granola bar and even a Bible." quoted from his jcsm.org/Devos/Devos400.htm devotional
- But you have to scroll down through all the click through adds before you reach the devotional. if you want to avoid the adds there is an archived version here. David D. (Talk) 04:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, no...I work with a couple of charity outfits and have delivered food to the homeless in San Diego county, and when Gastrich first posted that stuff, I asked around. No one had ever heard of him or "Jesus Christ Saves Ministries" doing anything of note for homeless people. It was just another boast. WarriorScribe 04:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Are you say that all this time I had thought he was offering granola bars from his Honda and in fact this is not true? How could you possibly verify that he does not perform these random acts of kindness? But it is true that God fills his Honda with gas, right? I can verify that one for sure. Gastrich told us all that:
- "Do you think God answers prayers? Well, He answered one of mine last week! I was praying that my wife's car would get over 40 miles per gallon on our trip to Pasadena. It normally gets 28-32 mpg. On this trip, her Honda Civic got 43 mpg! Praise the Lord. We went 225 miles on about 5 gallons of gas. God cares and answers even "little" prayers." Quoted from his www.jcsm.org/Devos/Devos230.htm devotional.
- My car mileage varies from 26 to 29 mpg without prayer. Then I forgot to pray, again, and used Shell gas instead of the stuff at the convenience store, and I did all highway driving that week. Mileage went up to 36 mpg on that tank! Praise...uh...praise...uhhh...well, I didn't pray...on whom do I lavish praises? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
WarriorScribe (
talk •
contribs)
- The miracles of science and engineering. Not to mention the wonders of a constant 65-75 mph as opposed to the stop and go more usual for local driving. But you knew that didn;t you? David D. (Talk) 05:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- My car mileage varies from 26 to 29 mpg without prayer. Then I forgot to pray, again, and used Shell gas instead of the stuff at the convenience store, and I did all highway driving that week. Mileage went up to 36 mpg on that tank! Praise...uh...praise...uhhh...well, I didn't pray...on whom do I lavish praises? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
WarriorScribe (
talk •
contribs)
Warriorscribe you are too quick to judge this man of God. David D. (Talk) 05:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- You're right...I repent! I'll take a cinammon-apple, please...just don't sing... WarriorScribe 05:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- You publicly claimed to be a pastor at Life Church in Sacramento and you personally gave me a link to your church's web site. Before and after, you've been acting like a complete jerk. Furthermore, you've never said or done anything that I've heard or seen that could be considered Christian. But you have done the following: vandalized my talk page (and you were banned for 24 hours from an admin for it), engaged in personal attacks, harassed me for wanting the truth on the Mark K. Bilbo entry, emailed me rude things, etc.
- Maybe you should read through other people's comments before you delete. If you did that you would notice that I NEVER claimed to be "The" Pastor, I did and still do claim and avow that I am the "Youth" Pastor. Yes I was banned for 24 hours, but I did not engage in a personal attack, I posted a public apology on behalf of christians everywhere for your behavior. This is in your page history, maybe you should read it again. You are so adamant that the truth being told about Mark K Bilbo, but what of the truth being told of your hero, Kent Hovind? Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- These are things that your pastor (your Dad, now I find) need to know. No pastor should ever act like you do. You're not a vigilante. You're not doing God's work. You are doing nothing, whatsoever, besides eating a little of my time.
- Again, read before deleting. In the same reply where I gave you our churches web address, I said, "look at the Sr. Pastor's name, doesn't it look familiar, that's right, he's my dad." Am I beginning to ring any bells here, Jason? BTW No Christian should ever act the way you do, that's how Genocide happens. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Whoever you answer to needs to know what you are doing and they need to reprimand you; and they will. In fact, your pastor/father called me, today. I don't suppose you'll listen to me, but I do suppose you'll listen to your spiritual overseer [emphasis added].
- I answer to God, as do you. You are a liar, he did not call you [emphasis added]. As a matter of fact all that really happened was that you left a message on the church answering machine. When my dad asked me about it, I told him all about you. His reply was to laugh. You see, since you asked about my background before, we used to belong to an organization that agrees very much with you doctrine and tactics. We left that organization 13 years ago, and now we find narrow minded people, such as yourself, laughable, nothing more. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- That's Gastrich for you. When he gets backed into corners (usually by people simply reacting to his unChristian, hateful, mean-spirited, self-promotion), he boasts in ways that, mostly, can't be verified (twice the income? Rrrrriiiiggghhhhtttt...), and he lies. WarriorScribe 15:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Please do not contact me, again. As I said before, since you've been trying to get me thrown off Wikipedia - before and after that futile attempt - I have never, ever seen or heard one thing from you that could make me think you are a brother in Christ or even a person of integrity. In fact, from the little I know you, I cannot find even one redeeming quality. You seem to be wasting time and space and getting in the way of my efforts to further the cause of Christ. Therefore, it's best that you stay away from me until you can shine Christ's light through you; instead of hate. If you can repent to God and seek forgiveness, then you can email me. Until that time, we have nothing in common.
- I have attempted to contact you, that you are telling the truth about. And although 2 of my email addresses are posted in varied places on WikiPedia, you have never once attempted to contact me. But you did go "running to my daddy" didn't you. I find this as a sign of cowardice. My actions might not seem christian to you, but that's only because your looking through your twisted perception of what it means to be a "Christian!" I don't hate you Jason, I pity you! You are going to be suprised when you get to heaven and alot more people than you thought should make it are there. But that's the beauty of Christ, we are all unworthy. And while I am indeed a sinner (as are we all) and in need of repentence for a number of things, I do not need to repent over this. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- If you still want to threaten me (e.g. you saying above "your time is short"), consider "WarriorScribe" (Dave Horn). He has been trolling me and trying to hurt me and my ministry for quite awhile. What good has it done? I'll sum it up right here: he has been able to revert 3 Wikipedia entries and encourage 3 unbelievers in their desire to reject God and me.
- "Your time is short" is not a threat, it was a warning. Administrators, moderators, and numerous other users are beginning to look into your actions. Your personal POV and agenda have been noted by many. Who are the 3 people that have been encouraged to reject God? Maybe if they speak to a real Man of God, they could be persuaded to change their minds. I do believe that WarriorScribe have encouraged 3 people to reject you, I just hoped it had been a much larger number than that and I hope that we will add to that number as well. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- In the meantime, since he began his quest, by the grace and blessing of God and my Savior Jesus Christ, jcsm.org has grown by nearly 100,000 web pages, our yearly income has doubled from 2004 to 2005, our subscribers for the weekly devotions have increased by about 5 people every day, we've launched http://wiki4christ.com, http://believeandrepent.com, http://yecs.org, http://macsd.org, http://skepticsannotatedbible.org, etc. I've been faithful with JCSM's weekly devotions, devos.jcsm.org text and ada.jcsm.org audio, I've launched the National Life Journal, and on and on and on. So, "WarriorScribe"/Dave Horn (who will be trolling me, reading, and replying here any minute), Icj tlc, and anyone else who doesn't like me, rest assured that your efforts to troll me and spread hate and slander against me have only done what those sorts of things have always done and will always do: fueled me to stay up later, to work even harder, and to do everything I possibly can to further the cause of Christ into this hungry world. As you were, guys. And by the way, thanks. I'm not sure if I would have been motivated enough to do it all without you. Glory to God for what He has done, what He is doing, and what He will do. -- Jason Gastrich 03:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- My quest? Your really not that important to me Jason, in the bigger scheme of things, I do hope that you eventually learn from your mistakes. Were I the type of Christian that you seem to be, I would call your Pastor and inform him of your actions, and your claims of a "Ministry" based on a rather poorly put together website. But I'm not like you, and while I know this is a big blow to your ego, your really aren't that important to me. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Please see talk page for final decision from the Cabal Mediator Bonaparte talk 20:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input, Craig. I'm guessing Gastrich will complain (and probably use the issue that Bonaparte gave us a week to come up with the "compromise," and rendered his "decision" just over 24 hours after that), but his only real hope was mediation. Bonaparte's decision was that of an arbitrator, not necessarily a mediator, given the language, but I'm pretty sure Gastrich would not want this to go higher. Shalom alechiem! See you around! WarriorScribe 21:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Icj tlc: Hello there, I'm Nicholas Turnbull, the new mediator assigned to your mediation request at the Mediation Cabal. Regretfully, I have had to close the mediation request that you made, on the basis that the request is outside the scope of mediation. From the case proceedings, I enclose below a copy of my final evaluation.
I do hope that this is of assistance to you. If there is any further manner in which you would like our assistance, please do not hesistate to contact myself or another mediator at the Mediation Cabal, bearing in mind WP:CIVIL. Best regards, -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 05:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Mediator evaluation
From User:Icj tlc:
- Well Gastrich ruined my break by calling my church to report to my pastor, aka Dad, that I am harrasing a "Minister" over the Internet. Not sure what to do anymore. Might be going on a WikiVacation soon. It's one thing for the weasel to show his lack of intelligence here on WikiPedia, it's another thing completely for him to...I honestly don't know what to call it. Harrassment, stalking? Uh oh, I'm starting to sound like him now! Anywho, I would appreciate any advice on my talk page. Icj tlc 01:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Since this dispute (and, indeed, the Mark K. Bilbo issue also) gravitates around the Jason Gastrich/Icj tlc conflict, the above message would appear to indicate a state of affairs outside the scope of mediation based on this statement by Icj tlc. This message above, in addition to the incivility demonstrated by Icj tlc towards a Mediation Cabal mediator, also brings this request for mediation into questionable faith. These issues, regardless of their merits, indicate that this case is not one where the assistance of an informal mediator is possible. The Mediation Cabal cannot deal with disciplinary issues, and can only assist where two parties exist who are willing to attempt mutual negotiation to produce agreement. If the statement written by Icj tlc above is indeed true, this case should be brought to the Arbitration Committee; indeed, if a real issue of harassment does exist perpetrated by either party, the affected party should report the matter to his/her local police. As a consequence I am hereby marking this case closed. -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 04:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Welcome!
Hello, Icj tlc/Archive1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
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D. J. Bracey
(talk)
19:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
My apologies to all of you on behalf of christians everywhere. It is christian's like Gastrich that make the rest of us ashamed to be known by that distinction. Personally I stopped calling myself a christian a long time ago, I've called myself a follower of Christ for quite a few years now. I am actively involved in the ministry (and I don't mean a web-based ministry) and it shames me and hurts me deeply to see the rhetoric and judgemental-ism that Gastrich is passing off as characteristics of Christianity. If any of you are trying to find the truth of Christ, please don't pay any attention to any edits by Jason Gastrich, he gives GOOD Christians a BAD name. -- Icj tlc 17:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- Gastrich has quite a history, but don't worry. Most of us are astute enough and have been around enough to know that not all Christians behave as he does. In fact, I'd say that most do not. Furthermore, quite a few of us don't think he's a Christian, at all, and he has serious psychological issues, not to mention issues with maturity. And unlike Gastrich, when I say "us" and "we," I can name names. I'd add that you might expect him to respond to you with something like "have we met" or you'd be derided for criticizing him before introducing yourself, but he won't do that, now that I've pointed it out. WarriorScribe 18:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Jtkiefer T | C | @ ---- 23:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- You have been blocked for 24 hours for personal attacks and vandalism. Jtkiefer T | C | @ ---- 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
All right, I have officially been block by an administrator! I guess I've made it now! Just goes to show that if you "attack" a whiny little control freak ( User:Jason Gastrich)that he will go running to admin and they will execute their awesome powers by blocking you for a 24 hour period...I wonder if she even looked at my "vandalism" before she blocked me? Probably not, doesn't matter cause she's got all the power, and I am just a little 'pedian! Icj tlc 16:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- 23:27, 29 December 2005, Jtkiefer blocked Icj_tlc (expires 23:27, 30 December 2005) (contribs) (attacks and vandalism)
I see you want to give me Christian instruction, but I have seen nothing Christian from you. Can you please tell me about your faith, what Christ means to you, your conversion, and your success in ministry? These are things I like to know from people when they tell me they are a brother in Christ. All I do know is that you were suspended for 24 hours for vandalism and personal attacks on my talk page. Please let me know a bit more about you (e.g. past, present, ministry, personal info, etc.). You can start with your name. -- Jason Gastrich 00:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- In case anyone is wondering what this is all about, Gastrich is responding to Craig's comments here. Two things are of note. One is that I have to wonder how much effort it would take to look at the user page and get a name. And two? Well, I guess we won't be hearing Gastrich explain what Jesus would do in this case...
- It's all yours, Craig. Have at...and good luck. WarriorScribe 00:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- And, by now, you've discovered that Gastrich has removed your critical comments and those that expose his mistakes from his "talk" page, refusing to respond to any of them.
- There are several of, all of whom have had significant experience interacting with Gastrich or opposing him, who agree that he has some developmental issues. He's never quite grown out of certain juvenile traits that the rest of us leave behind during adolescence. That has been apparent during the arguments about the Bilbo article, as well as many that have come before. Gastrich also has a habit of ignoring, deleting, and obscuring facts about his personal heroes (or himself), while turning rumors and innuendos about people he doesn't like (or with whom he has had confrontations) into "facts." His presence on Wikipedia is clearly to push his own, peculiar POV, and we've already seen several examples of that. I'm gathering more for my case against him, even as this is being entered on the talk page.
- As a Christian, you face a particular challenge in Gastrich, who pretty much believes that anything that he does to advance his agenda is okay because he's "once-saved-always-saved." He's also played the same game with other Christians as he is doing with you; and isn't it odd that you have to show him your Christianity--he sees nothing "Christian" about you. He's already shown that he is a complete failure as a Christian minister, but to dodge that, he reverses the challenge.
- Like I said...good luck. WarriorScribe 21:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- P.S., Do let us know if, with respect to the Mark Bilbo article (or anything else, controversial, going on here at Wikipedia involving him), he ever answers your "what would Jesus do?" question. WarriorScribe 21:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Stop Jason.
- 1. There is no "Admin" Bonaparte, as has already been pointed out. Bonaparte is a mediator, not an Admin.
- 2. NO WHERE did I say I wanted to give you Christian instruction, you are like one of the pharisees that believe they know everything and therefore cannot be instructed.
- 3. My faith is my faith. That's not up for public speculation or debate by people that consider themselves "ministers" because they have a website.
- 4. I highly doubt that you want to know my personal info because I am a brother in Christ. You are trying to bait me into an argument as you have done so many times with other people. It's not going to work.
- 5. I posted no vandalism or personal attacks on your talk page, I merely appologized to everyone you have offended in the name of Christ. In your contorted little mind, you viewed this as a personal attack and ran to an admin. In case you haven't noticed 2 of your "enemies" (WarriorScribe and myself) have recently reverted true vandalism of your talk page by User Bible John.
- 6. If you really want personal information from me, look at my user page. My name and email address have been on there since the day I created my account. (Which reminds me, your email address is no where to be found, if I want to email you, I have to follow a link to your website.) Also you can find my credentials here...[www.tlc-rocks.org]
- As I said before Jason, I don't believe WikiPedia should be used as a platform for ANYONE (including myself) to preach there beliefs, you can use WikiChristian or that other little wiki you've started for that. If you want to continue this, I recommend you email me as I will not respond to any more of your messages either here or on my talk page. Yours in Christ. Icj tlc 13:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes is true. I am mediator. And is also true that you are almost near to reach an agreement. Is just a matter of trust. It won't be easy if you don't start to collaborate and to understand each other. I am here to help you to communicate you better. You should try harder to reach a compromise. I think you can do it by starting from what has benn propose on the talk page.
Bonaparte
talk
19:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Bonaparte, there is no resolution as of yet, you gave a deadline of 01/02/06. Right now things on that page are peaceful because Jason Gastrich hasn't been online for a while. As soon as he comes back on line, he's going to start his whining again about everyone reverting his edits and going contrary to your "ruling." As far as he's concerned, once you agreed with him on his second paragraph, he won. He has repeated this over and over, and tells everyone that an Admin has made a ruling. Watch, as soon as he logs back on he's going to go in there and revert it to his last entry and than it's going to start all over again. He needs to be booted perm. He does nothing but spout his rhetoric, conspiracy theories, and POV.
Icj tlc
20:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Please. You have to trust the other users and Assume Good Faith. Now, please don't worry because I'm watching his moves but you also have to find a compromise. Bonaparte talk 20:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Bonaparte, there is no resolution as of yet, you gave a deadline of 01/02/06. Right now things on that page are peaceful because Jason Gastrich hasn't been online for a while. As soon as he comes back on line, he's going to start his whining again about everyone reverting his edits and going contrary to your "ruling." As far as he's concerned, once you agreed with him on his second paragraph, he won. He has repeated this over and over, and tells everyone that an Admin has made a ruling. Watch, as soon as he logs back on he's going to go in there and revert it to his last entry and than it's going to start all over again. He needs to be booted perm. He does nothing but spout his rhetoric, conspiracy theories, and POV.
Icj tlc
20:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes is true. I am mediator. And is also true that you are almost near to reach an agreement. Is just a matter of trust. It won't be easy if you don't start to collaborate and to understand each other. I am here to help you to communicate you better. You should try harder to reach a compromise. I think you can do it by starting from what has benn propose on the talk page.
Bonaparte
talk
19:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I read your message. Stop reposting it in my talk page. Based on your childish behavior and treatment of me, at this time, I have no desire to talk to you via email. -- Jason Gastrich 22:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I guess that's what "Jesus would do." WarriorScribe 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely. And call his church and tell them about his behavior. This man has filed a mediation request to get me kicked off Wikipedia, so yeah, at this time, I don't want to talk to him. I will talk to his head pastor, though. -- Jason Gastrich 22:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- So the problem is that Gastrich doesn't want to be kicked off Wikipedia. Hmmm...well, there are solutions to that other than whining, I should think... WarriorScribe 23:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey Jason, you might want to take a good look at my name and my head pastor's name, don't they look a little familiar. That's right he's my father and I highly doubt he will agree with you. Especially on doctrine. As far as we are concerned, Jesus came to heal, not hurt, which is all you can seem to do. I never filed a request to get you kicked off of Wikipedia, I have reccomended that you be permanently banned, but haven't figured out how to request it yet. Maybe I should look under WikiNusance or WikiBigot or WikiNazi. Icj tlc 23:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Really? That's funny. I don't know you at all and all I keep asking you to do is leave me alone. I'm sorry if that hurts you, but if you didn't want me to avoid you, then you shouldn't be acting the way you've been acting. -- Jason Gastrich 23:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- We appear to have an answer. Gastrich is doing what "Jesus would do." That was my point, after all, and Gastrich's response? "Absolutely." Jesus would declare your behavior "childish," protest your "treatment of" him, and refuse to communicate with you.
- According to Gastrich, David Jeremiah, at Shadow Mountain, is the pastor of his "home church." The number there is 619-440-1802. It's been a while since I attended what was then "Scott Memorial Baptist Church," and no doubt, David is much busier these days. However, I suspect that he'd be willing to listen to whatever you might have to say, since Gastrich's latest juvenile bit is about "tattling" on you to your pastor. You might also give Miles McPherson a call at The Rock, 619-223-3863.
- And since your pastor is also your father, let me know if you want to take it to the "I'm telling your daddy" level, as he may do. That should be interesting. WarriorScribe 23:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have a responsibilty to Christ to make sure that you are not the image people have of him! Icj tlc 23:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Give me a break. If you had any responsibility to Christ, then this wouldn't like like this. Please prayerfully consider doing something online for the cause of Christ; besides bothering me. -- Jason Gastrich 23:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Anytime a Christian works to get his "own house in order," he's working for the "cause of Christ." Works for me. WarriorScribe 23:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should consider doing something in the real world for God, instead of hiding behind your website "ministry!" When is the last time you helped convert someone to the Lord in person? Or do something online for Him to, like quitting WikiPedia? And as far as my contributions, let's just call it "Defending the Faith!" Icj tlc 23:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, speaking as a former Christian (and quite devout in my day), while I can see some problems with Craig's approach, it's certainly more "Christ-like" than Gastrich's. According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus reserved some of his strongest language for the hypocrites and religious phonies of his day. Since Craig isn't Jesus, I think we can give him some slack for not getting it quite right... WarriorScribe 23:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your comment on the main user page, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Gastrich is all about silencing his opposition rather than intelligently discussing anything. He's even taken at least one person to court...that we know about, anyway...see DurangoBill.com for details. He's had web sites shut down, and he sent Jason Harvestdancer's parents a letter complaining about his (Harvestdancer's) participation in Usenet forums, allegedly harassing Gastrich. Problem is that Harvestdancer is also an adult.
Steve Winter, another loud-mouthed, self-ordained "minister back east, does similar stuff. He calls parents, Internet providers, and even employers if someone challenges him in public, and he even files for harassment charges. None of it ever comes to anything, but guys like that figure that if they can be enough of a pain in the butt, they can discourage critics. The problem is that it just exposes them for the cowards that they are. WarriorScribe 02:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, Gastrich sent my father a letter. He claimed he didn't know that I'm an adult. So, it seems you've joined the ranks of those who, because they respect truth, are anti-god. If you look on Here, you'll find a link to a very long email discussion he and I had. Good luck. Harvestdancer 03:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- There's no reason for you to "go" anywhere. It is not harassment to argue with somebody online. That's absurd on its face and Gastrich is way out of line to be calling people up and trying to scare them off the Wikipedia. I'm sure you upset him greatly since you upset his defense that all opposition to him is just from nasty old atheists who hate Jesus. This is a public, open forum and you have as much right to be here as he does. Having an argument online is not anywhere near harrassment. If it were, Gastrich and I would have adjoining cells! Mark K. Bilbo 02:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Misread your message, I thought you were talking about taking a "break" because he was harrassing you offline. Either way, I think a user conduct RfC should be filed on this. Gastrich has no business calling people at home to scare them off the Wiki. Mark K. Bilbo 02:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest ignoring him in real life but not in wikipedia. David D. (Talk) 03:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- While I wouldn't worry that he's a "threat," of any kind, I don't agree with ignoring the behavior. This isn't the first time Gastrich has pulled a stunt like this, taking to trying to scare people off some online disagreement by harassing them offline. He's trying to influence the Wiki with underhanded tactics. Like his attempt to astroturf the AfD vote over his vanity page (and threatening to do it again by the way). Ironic isn't it? Given what he's been whining about lately? Which is worse? Using "naughty words" on Usenet or calling people on the phone trying to intimidate them from posting at all? Hm... Mark K. Bilbo 04:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable point. It's mind blowing how some so-called Christians behave these days. David D. (Talk) 04:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Have to agree. Gastrich will almost certainly do as he says--increase his efforts, but it's not to spread the Gospel. Having been exposed as much as he has, he's hurting more than he'll admit, and so he has to keep trying to get those gullible people out there to contribute. There are plenty of them. I guess he just wants his "fair share." WarriorScribe 04:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I see on the Gastrich talk page that he's at it again. I guess he doesn't mind a bit of disingenuousness (e.g., claiming that you said you were a "pastor" when he knows full well that you are more specific, i.e., you're a "youth pastor," which is a different thing). But here, since he'll almost certainly immediately delete them from his page, are my responses to some of the, eh, figments of his imagination:
- Gastrich: If you still want to threaten me (e.g. you saying above "your time is short"), consider "WarriorScribe" (Dave Horn). He has been trolling me and trying to hurt me and my ministry for quite awhile. What good has it done? I'll sum it up right here: he has been able to revert 3 Wikipedia entries and encourage 3 unbelievers in their desire to reject God and me.
- Notice the "reject God and me" bit. That's quite revealing.
- I'm not clear what three people he has in mind (and he won't name them), but I happen to know quite a few more who haven't been impressed with his antics, and it goes well beyond three. But I would submit to you that he's right on one score. It really isn't what I'm doing that's causing people to be repelled by him. It's what he's doing.
- I haven't been keeping track of the number of "reverts" that I have done in Wikipedia, but I'll grant it hasn't been many, if only because I haven't, comparatively speaking, made that many edits. I don't think that any of Gastrich's editings, once surveyed, corrected, and nPOV'd by me, have survived. In short, most of my edits have stood up. I exposed and fixed POV pushing in the Hovind and Wilkinson articles, just in the last couple of days. So far, the Bilbo edits have stood up, I removed his spam link from the Steeling the Mind page, as well as a spam link removed from the Freedom From Religion article. I've helped fix the article about the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and I've made a number of other corrections, anonymously, that have also remained. In short, I've helped defeat Gastrich's attempts at POV pushing on nearly every article that I have touched. Gastrich's boasting is, as usual, empty.
- I wanted to mention this, but I also wanted to hurry up and finish my rebuttal and so I forgot (poor Craig is going to need to archive his page sooner than most!). Gastrich boasts about the relative number of reverts, but I think it's of note to point out, in rebuttal, that the overwhelming majority of "edits" and "contributions" by Gastrich leave nothing to revert. Hundreds and hundreds of categorizations of people as "atheists" "ministers," "writers" and so on don't provide an opportunity to review and revert. There's no substance. With respect to this boast of Gastrich's, it's a disingenuous argument.
- In the meantime, since he began his quest, by the grace and blessing of God and my Savior Jesus Christ, jcsm.org has grown by nearly 100,000 web pages...
- Gastrich has always been impressed with web page counts, but copying someone else's work and formatting it and putting under one's own domain is hardly something about which a person should boast.
- ...our yearly income has doubled from 2004 to 2005, our subscribers for the weekly devotions have increased by about 5 people every day...
- These are more boasts about numbers and are completely unverifiable. Gastrich often boasts like this, but at the moment, I happen to know that his ministry is not near as successful as he'd like to claim. Still, if his income is that much more, he should be able to give more than $100 (increased from $84) a month to his African charities, and Lenny Flank should be able to get a Form 990 from him. I guess we'll find out all of these things, but keep in mind that Gastrich is well-known for some rather creative thinking when it comes to his "success," and it's generally discovered to be nothing more than juvenile boasting, inflated and made up to make himself seem more powerful and important.
- ...we've launched http://wiki4christ.com, http://believeandrepent.com, http://yecs.org, http://macsd.org, http://skepticsannotatedbible.org, etc.
- Of these, only wiki4christ is new since I started opposing Gastrich's efforts. This is a bold-faced lie, here. All of these domains and sites were already in existence when he and we first encountered one-another in talk.origins, and I challenged him on an issue of evolution, from which he ran, by the way.
- I've been faithful with JCSM's weekly devotions, text and audio...
- I don't know what "been faithful" means other than that he puts these things out on a regular basis (but has been late a few times). Sounds like another empty boast to me. Ever since taking on Gastrich, I've completed two more academic credentials and commenced on a doctorate, completed a screenplay and a novel, and put them on the market, and started a business. What does that all m ean? Not a thing.
- I've launched the National Life Journal, and on and on and on.
- There's no "on and on and on." That's pretty much it. He's run through the litany. During the same period, Gastrich started and stopped two other Google groups about himself and his "ministry," was chased from Usenet posting (by his own bad behavior, really) and from the San Diego area. He lost a court case, he had a divorce filing and he's moved at least three times. I suppose that I can go "on and on and on," too.
- So, "WarriorScribe"/Dave Horn (who will be trolling me, reading, and replying here any minute), Icj tlc, and anyone else who doesn't like me, rest assured that your efforts to troll me and spread hate...
- Gastrich has been told a number of times that no one hates him, though I admit to finding him and his kind loathsome and parasitic.
- ...and slander against me...
- Slander is, in effect, lying. Gastrich has never shown any lies on the part of his opponents, while he has been caught in several. I can certainly list them, "on and on and on..."
- ...have only done what those sorts of things have always done and will always do: fueled me to stay up later, to work even harder, and to do everything I possibly can to further the cause of Christ into this hungry world.
- The problem is that, given Gastrich's attitude and clear efforts at self-promotion, you won't find more than a couple of people anywhere who believe this. What he's really trying to do is take advantage of the sincere beliefs of others so that he can profit from it. I think that the fact that he had to go out and get a job says something about how "successful" the "ministry" has been. WarriorScribe 04:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I love this one:
- Gastrich: "These are things that your pastor (your Dad, now I find)..."
"Now I find?" As if you hadn't told him that before he made the call...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorScribe ( talk • contribs)
- Well, about the only thing I find significant about the explosion on his talk page is he knows he's been caught pulling one of his underhanded little tricks and is desparately trying to slather a Jesus veneer over it. Mark K. Bilbo 04:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Of course...and we've seen it all, before. The same meaningless boasting, the same ranting, and the same self-importance. He pulled it at Infidel Guy, he's tried it at least one other time here, as I recall, and we're seeing it again..the same script. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. WarriorScribe 04:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- To be fair Jason has been ministering to the homeless. As he has said in the past.
- "Do something to bless someone you don't know. Here is one way you could do this. Bring a snack in your car and give it to a homeless person. In my city, homeless people hold signs and stand by the road. It's very easy to hand them a granola bar and even a Bible." quoted from his jcsm.org/Devos/Devos400.htm devotional
- But you have to scroll down through all the click through adds before you reach the devotional. if you want to avoid the adds there is an archived version here. David D. (Talk) 04:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, no...I work with a couple of charity outfits and have delivered food to the homeless in San Diego county, and when Gastrich first posted that stuff, I asked around. No one had ever heard of him or "Jesus Christ Saves Ministries" doing anything of note for homeless people. It was just another boast. WarriorScribe 04:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Are you say that all this time I had thought he was offering granola bars from his Honda and in fact this is not true? How could you possibly verify that he does not perform these random acts of kindness? But it is true that God fills his Honda with gas, right? I can verify that one for sure. Gastrich told us all that:
- "Do you think God answers prayers? Well, He answered one of mine last week! I was praying that my wife's car would get over 40 miles per gallon on our trip to Pasadena. It normally gets 28-32 mpg. On this trip, her Honda Civic got 43 mpg! Praise the Lord. We went 225 miles on about 5 gallons of gas. God cares and answers even "little" prayers." Quoted from his www.jcsm.org/Devos/Devos230.htm devotional.
- My car mileage varies from 26 to 29 mpg without prayer. Then I forgot to pray, again, and used Shell gas instead of the stuff at the convenience store, and I did all highway driving that week. Mileage went up to 36 mpg on that tank! Praise...uh...praise...uhhh...well, I didn't pray...on whom do I lavish praises? —Preceding
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- The miracles of science and engineering. Not to mention the wonders of a constant 65-75 mph as opposed to the stop and go more usual for local driving. But you knew that didn;t you? David D. (Talk) 05:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- My car mileage varies from 26 to 29 mpg without prayer. Then I forgot to pray, again, and used Shell gas instead of the stuff at the convenience store, and I did all highway driving that week. Mileage went up to 36 mpg on that tank! Praise...uh...praise...uhhh...well, I didn't pray...on whom do I lavish praises? —Preceding
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Warriorscribe you are too quick to judge this man of God. David D. (Talk) 05:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- You're right...I repent! I'll take a cinammon-apple, please...just don't sing... WarriorScribe 05:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- You publicly claimed to be a pastor at Life Church in Sacramento and you personally gave me a link to your church's web site. Before and after, you've been acting like a complete jerk. Furthermore, you've never said or done anything that I've heard or seen that could be considered Christian. But you have done the following: vandalized my talk page (and you were banned for 24 hours from an admin for it), engaged in personal attacks, harassed me for wanting the truth on the Mark K. Bilbo entry, emailed me rude things, etc.
- Maybe you should read through other people's comments before you delete. If you did that you would notice that I NEVER claimed to be "The" Pastor, I did and still do claim and avow that I am the "Youth" Pastor. Yes I was banned for 24 hours, but I did not engage in a personal attack, I posted a public apology on behalf of christians everywhere for your behavior. This is in your page history, maybe you should read it again. You are so adamant that the truth being told about Mark K Bilbo, but what of the truth being told of your hero, Kent Hovind? Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- These are things that your pastor (your Dad, now I find) need to know. No pastor should ever act like you do. You're not a vigilante. You're not doing God's work. You are doing nothing, whatsoever, besides eating a little of my time.
- Again, read before deleting. In the same reply where I gave you our churches web address, I said, "look at the Sr. Pastor's name, doesn't it look familiar, that's right, he's my dad." Am I beginning to ring any bells here, Jason? BTW No Christian should ever act the way you do, that's how Genocide happens. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Whoever you answer to needs to know what you are doing and they need to reprimand you; and they will. In fact, your pastor/father called me, today. I don't suppose you'll listen to me, but I do suppose you'll listen to your spiritual overseer [emphasis added].
- I answer to God, as do you. You are a liar, he did not call you [emphasis added]. As a matter of fact all that really happened was that you left a message on the church answering machine. When my dad asked me about it, I told him all about you. His reply was to laugh. You see, since you asked about my background before, we used to belong to an organization that agrees very much with you doctrine and tactics. We left that organization 13 years ago, and now we find narrow minded people, such as yourself, laughable, nothing more. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- That's Gastrich for you. When he gets backed into corners (usually by people simply reacting to his unChristian, hateful, mean-spirited, self-promotion), he boasts in ways that, mostly, can't be verified (twice the income? Rrrrriiiiggghhhhtttt...), and he lies. WarriorScribe 15:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Please do not contact me, again. As I said before, since you've been trying to get me thrown off Wikipedia - before and after that futile attempt - I have never, ever seen or heard one thing from you that could make me think you are a brother in Christ or even a person of integrity. In fact, from the little I know you, I cannot find even one redeeming quality. You seem to be wasting time and space and getting in the way of my efforts to further the cause of Christ. Therefore, it's best that you stay away from me until you can shine Christ's light through you; instead of hate. If you can repent to God and seek forgiveness, then you can email me. Until that time, we have nothing in common.
- I have attempted to contact you, that you are telling the truth about. And although 2 of my email addresses are posted in varied places on WikiPedia, you have never once attempted to contact me. But you did go "running to my daddy" didn't you. I find this as a sign of cowardice. My actions might not seem christian to you, but that's only because your looking through your twisted perception of what it means to be a "Christian!" I don't hate you Jason, I pity you! You are going to be suprised when you get to heaven and alot more people than you thought should make it are there. But that's the beauty of Christ, we are all unworthy. And while I am indeed a sinner (as are we all) and in need of repentence for a number of things, I do not need to repent over this. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- If you still want to threaten me (e.g. you saying above "your time is short"), consider "WarriorScribe" (Dave Horn). He has been trolling me and trying to hurt me and my ministry for quite awhile. What good has it done? I'll sum it up right here: he has been able to revert 3 Wikipedia entries and encourage 3 unbelievers in their desire to reject God and me.
- "Your time is short" is not a threat, it was a warning. Administrators, moderators, and numerous other users are beginning to look into your actions. Your personal POV and agenda have been noted by many. Who are the 3 people that have been encouraged to reject God? Maybe if they speak to a real Man of God, they could be persuaded to change their minds. I do believe that WarriorScribe have encouraged 3 people to reject you, I just hoped it had been a much larger number than that and I hope that we will add to that number as well. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- In the meantime, since he began his quest, by the grace and blessing of God and my Savior Jesus Christ, jcsm.org has grown by nearly 100,000 web pages, our yearly income has doubled from 2004 to 2005, our subscribers for the weekly devotions have increased by about 5 people every day, we've launched http://wiki4christ.com, http://believeandrepent.com, http://yecs.org, http://macsd.org, http://skepticsannotatedbible.org, etc. I've been faithful with JCSM's weekly devotions, devos.jcsm.org text and ada.jcsm.org audio, I've launched the National Life Journal, and on and on and on. So, "WarriorScribe"/Dave Horn (who will be trolling me, reading, and replying here any minute), Icj tlc, and anyone else who doesn't like me, rest assured that your efforts to troll me and spread hate and slander against me have only done what those sorts of things have always done and will always do: fueled me to stay up later, to work even harder, and to do everything I possibly can to further the cause of Christ into this hungry world. As you were, guys. And by the way, thanks. I'm not sure if I would have been motivated enough to do it all without you. Glory to God for what He has done, what He is doing, and what He will do. -- Jason Gastrich 03:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- My quest? Your really not that important to me Jason, in the bigger scheme of things, I do hope that you eventually learn from your mistakes. Were I the type of Christian that you seem to be, I would call your Pastor and inform him of your actions, and your claims of a "Ministry" based on a rather poorly put together website. But I'm not like you, and while I know this is a big blow to your ego, your really aren't that important to me. Icj tlc 13:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Please see talk page for final decision from the Cabal Mediator Bonaparte talk 20:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input, Craig. I'm guessing Gastrich will complain (and probably use the issue that Bonaparte gave us a week to come up with the "compromise," and rendered his "decision" just over 24 hours after that), but his only real hope was mediation. Bonaparte's decision was that of an arbitrator, not necessarily a mediator, given the language, but I'm pretty sure Gastrich would not want this to go higher. Shalom alechiem! See you around! WarriorScribe 21:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Icj tlc: Hello there, I'm Nicholas Turnbull, the new mediator assigned to your mediation request at the Mediation Cabal. Regretfully, I have had to close the mediation request that you made, on the basis that the request is outside the scope of mediation. From the case proceedings, I enclose below a copy of my final evaluation.
I do hope that this is of assistance to you. If there is any further manner in which you would like our assistance, please do not hesistate to contact myself or another mediator at the Mediation Cabal, bearing in mind WP:CIVIL. Best regards, -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 05:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Mediator evaluation
From User:Icj tlc:
- Well Gastrich ruined my break by calling my church to report to my pastor, aka Dad, that I am harrasing a "Minister" over the Internet. Not sure what to do anymore. Might be going on a WikiVacation soon. It's one thing for the weasel to show his lack of intelligence here on WikiPedia, it's another thing completely for him to...I honestly don't know what to call it. Harrassment, stalking? Uh oh, I'm starting to sound like him now! Anywho, I would appreciate any advice on my talk page. Icj tlc 01:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Since this dispute (and, indeed, the Mark K. Bilbo issue also) gravitates around the Jason Gastrich/Icj tlc conflict, the above message would appear to indicate a state of affairs outside the scope of mediation based on this statement by Icj tlc. This message above, in addition to the incivility demonstrated by Icj tlc towards a Mediation Cabal mediator, also brings this request for mediation into questionable faith. These issues, regardless of their merits, indicate that this case is not one where the assistance of an informal mediator is possible. The Mediation Cabal cannot deal with disciplinary issues, and can only assist where two parties exist who are willing to attempt mutual negotiation to produce agreement. If the statement written by Icj tlc above is indeed true, this case should be brought to the Arbitration Committee; indeed, if a real issue of harassment does exist perpetrated by either party, the affected party should report the matter to his/her local police. As a consequence I am hereby marking this case closed. -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 04:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)