So, I think you're confusing IPA /ə/ with /æ/.
The problem, I think, is that you're basing your assessment of my IPA transcription of Clitheroe on the mouseover tooltip for /ə/, which gives the example of 'a' in 'about'. Which is as good a choice as any, but any example one could choose would have the same problem: /ə/ is a weak vowel, and for any weak vowel in the English sound system there's a corresponding strong vowel you use when you emphasize the pronunciation. In other words, /ə/ is the 'uh' in "uh-BOWT", not the 'aa' in "aa-BOWT". In an ordinary English sentence context, you'd weaken the first syllable and say 'uh-BOWT' /ə.ˈbaʊt/. You might think of it as 'aa-BOWT' /ˌæ.ˈbaʊt/ in an emphasized context, though.
The first change I made eliminated the possibility, that was suggested by the original transcription, of a pronunication 'KLIDH-ee-ROE'. You reverted that, then someone suggested /ər/ instead, which was almost what I had except that it divided the symbols differently, grouping the ər together instead of placing them in separate template arguments, which I objected to on a principle related to syllabification: in general, when splitting a transcription into syllables, consonants are grouped with the stronger/more stressed of their neighbouring syllables, a rule which this division defied. So I separated them again, then you reverted that change.
The transcription I gave is a correct one. You just need to understand the IPA before you start meddling with it. I've also lived in Clitheroe all my life, and I know it's not pronounced 'KLIDH-aa-ROE'. Hopefully my explanation will make me seem less of a prat. :-)
DavidPKendal ( talk) 00:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
IPA is a discredited system, it was discredited before DavidPKendal was born. They tried to teach school children to read and write phonetically but the only problem was once they taught them that way, they then had to teach them how to read and write properly and it confused them, so the experiment was abandoned. Yes there are several ways of spelling words, but you learn the way for the country you live in, if you try to introduce phonetics into this, you will only make things worse. If you need to show how to pronounce a word, use syllables. Hortimech2014
Your recent editing history at Clitheroe shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. -- Dr Greg talk 19:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Will you please stop threatening me. If you have to wade through pages of stuff to try and understand how to understand how to pronounce something you have been pronouncing for nearly sixty years, then something is very wrong. I think that my decision to remove the thing that we are arguing about is the right thing to do, it is a very small edit and stops all arguments, or so I thought. What I would like to know is, what gives you more rights to edit wikipedia than I do, I did not start this 'war' as YOU call it, I edited an incorrect pronunciation (as it was on the page), my edit was reverted, Then changed. I still think that something that does not sound like what I have been pronoucing for years should not be on the page. I think that the best outcome would be if you would accepted that we are NEVER going to agree on this and in this instance, agree to the IPA being removed. Hortimech2014
Exactly, a system that is so easily misunderstood should not be used, please remove the phonetic way of pronouncing Clitheroe until IPA sorts out how to pronounce Clitheroe i.e. Klith-er-o. The page at the moment (if you mouse over the IPA bit) shows that Clitheroe is pronounced with an 'a' sound i.e. klith-ar-o, the better end of the poor may pronounce it this way, but the majority of Clitheronians do not! Hortimech2014
I am not saying that IPA should be abandoned, just that the patently wrong interpretation of Clitheroe should be removed until IPA is corrected. My feelings are that only something that is 100% correct should appear on a Wikipedia page, otherwise you are spreading incorrect information. Hortimech2014
Excuse me, but what planet are you on ? the 'e' sound in Clitheroe, does not sound like 'a' 'y' 'u' 'o' or 'i' so that rules out most of your list. the sound that you are looking for is the 'er' sound in 'boomerang' or 'geranium', and that I think is the problem, phonetics is trying to rewrite the word letter by letter, is there not a symbol for the syllable 'er' ? if fact what is is wrong with using syllables instead, Clitheroe is pronounced 'Kli-th-er-o' what is wrong with that, instead of your hyroglyphics ?? Hortimech2014
I am a typical Clitheronian and I can assure you that I do pronounce the 'r' in 'letter' I most certainly do not pronounce it 'lette'. We are discussing the pronunciation of a place name, so in my opinion, you have to take accent in to account. This is where you are going wrong, the phonetic that you want to use must take this into account, it must show how the residents pronounce the name of where they live, not how you would like it to sound, take 'Masham' for instance, I would hate to see how you would show that in phonetics, or 'Harewood' nr Leeds. Hortimech2014
Well, there you go, you must come from the better end of the poor, a genuine Clitheronian would pronounce their 'r's and as for saying that accents are irrelevant to a place name, well I cannot agree with you there. How a place name is pronounced is dictated by the people who live in that place and the majority of Clitheronians would not pronounce it the way that you seem to do, oh and you got both of the place names wrong, Masham is Mash-am and Harewood is Har-wood! This conversation is over, we will never agree, do not contact me again. Hortimech2014
So, I think you're confusing IPA /ə/ with /æ/.
The problem, I think, is that you're basing your assessment of my IPA transcription of Clitheroe on the mouseover tooltip for /ə/, which gives the example of 'a' in 'about'. Which is as good a choice as any, but any example one could choose would have the same problem: /ə/ is a weak vowel, and for any weak vowel in the English sound system there's a corresponding strong vowel you use when you emphasize the pronunciation. In other words, /ə/ is the 'uh' in "uh-BOWT", not the 'aa' in "aa-BOWT". In an ordinary English sentence context, you'd weaken the first syllable and say 'uh-BOWT' /ə.ˈbaʊt/. You might think of it as 'aa-BOWT' /ˌæ.ˈbaʊt/ in an emphasized context, though.
The first change I made eliminated the possibility, that was suggested by the original transcription, of a pronunication 'KLIDH-ee-ROE'. You reverted that, then someone suggested /ər/ instead, which was almost what I had except that it divided the symbols differently, grouping the ər together instead of placing them in separate template arguments, which I objected to on a principle related to syllabification: in general, when splitting a transcription into syllables, consonants are grouped with the stronger/more stressed of their neighbouring syllables, a rule which this division defied. So I separated them again, then you reverted that change.
The transcription I gave is a correct one. You just need to understand the IPA before you start meddling with it. I've also lived in Clitheroe all my life, and I know it's not pronounced 'KLIDH-aa-ROE'. Hopefully my explanation will make me seem less of a prat. :-)
DavidPKendal ( talk) 00:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
IPA is a discredited system, it was discredited before DavidPKendal was born. They tried to teach school children to read and write phonetically but the only problem was once they taught them that way, they then had to teach them how to read and write properly and it confused them, so the experiment was abandoned. Yes there are several ways of spelling words, but you learn the way for the country you live in, if you try to introduce phonetics into this, you will only make things worse. If you need to show how to pronounce a word, use syllables. Hortimech2014
Your recent editing history at Clitheroe shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. -- Dr Greg talk 19:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Will you please stop threatening me. If you have to wade through pages of stuff to try and understand how to understand how to pronounce something you have been pronouncing for nearly sixty years, then something is very wrong. I think that my decision to remove the thing that we are arguing about is the right thing to do, it is a very small edit and stops all arguments, or so I thought. What I would like to know is, what gives you more rights to edit wikipedia than I do, I did not start this 'war' as YOU call it, I edited an incorrect pronunciation (as it was on the page), my edit was reverted, Then changed. I still think that something that does not sound like what I have been pronoucing for years should not be on the page. I think that the best outcome would be if you would accepted that we are NEVER going to agree on this and in this instance, agree to the IPA being removed. Hortimech2014
Exactly, a system that is so easily misunderstood should not be used, please remove the phonetic way of pronouncing Clitheroe until IPA sorts out how to pronounce Clitheroe i.e. Klith-er-o. The page at the moment (if you mouse over the IPA bit) shows that Clitheroe is pronounced with an 'a' sound i.e. klith-ar-o, the better end of the poor may pronounce it this way, but the majority of Clitheronians do not! Hortimech2014
I am not saying that IPA should be abandoned, just that the patently wrong interpretation of Clitheroe should be removed until IPA is corrected. My feelings are that only something that is 100% correct should appear on a Wikipedia page, otherwise you are spreading incorrect information. Hortimech2014
Excuse me, but what planet are you on ? the 'e' sound in Clitheroe, does not sound like 'a' 'y' 'u' 'o' or 'i' so that rules out most of your list. the sound that you are looking for is the 'er' sound in 'boomerang' or 'geranium', and that I think is the problem, phonetics is trying to rewrite the word letter by letter, is there not a symbol for the syllable 'er' ? if fact what is is wrong with using syllables instead, Clitheroe is pronounced 'Kli-th-er-o' what is wrong with that, instead of your hyroglyphics ?? Hortimech2014
I am a typical Clitheronian and I can assure you that I do pronounce the 'r' in 'letter' I most certainly do not pronounce it 'lette'. We are discussing the pronunciation of a place name, so in my opinion, you have to take accent in to account. This is where you are going wrong, the phonetic that you want to use must take this into account, it must show how the residents pronounce the name of where they live, not how you would like it to sound, take 'Masham' for instance, I would hate to see how you would show that in phonetics, or 'Harewood' nr Leeds. Hortimech2014
Well, there you go, you must come from the better end of the poor, a genuine Clitheronian would pronounce their 'r's and as for saying that accents are irrelevant to a place name, well I cannot agree with you there. How a place name is pronounced is dictated by the people who live in that place and the majority of Clitheronians would not pronounce it the way that you seem to do, oh and you got both of the place names wrong, Masham is Mash-am and Harewood is Har-wood! This conversation is over, we will never agree, do not contact me again. Hortimech2014