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The intelligent design page has seen people like Raspor over and over. Many of them are sent this way by Discovery Institute fellows who post "calls to action" against Wikipedia (and specific editors, including FeloniousMonk, JoshuaZ and myself). Some people come with a strong POV, argue for a while, but listen to what is said by other editors. Some of them stick around and become productive editors. Many of these complaints have improved the article by insisting that all sorts of statements be sourced. It can be tiring, but at least it helps improve the article. Others come along just to argue. While Raspor isn't the worst of them, he seems to have no interest in listening to what people say. S/he will ask a question, and when it is explained, repeat it. S/he started off asking questions that were asked - and answered - in the past. I pointed to the archives (the ID page has remarkably well-organised archives), but s/he just repeated the question.
Raspor is a classic troll. And to quote Larry, "show [people like that] the door". S/he isn't trying to improve the article - insisting that people at the ID page justify the "plethora of intermediate whale fossils" and rubbish like that. I have answered lots of Raspor's questions, only to have him/her ignore my answer and re-ask the same question lower down the page.
The only hope I can see for Raspor is a topic ban, if not a general community ban. Maybe s/he can be a productive editor on topics unrelated to creation and evolution, but I have no hope for anything better on these pages. Guettarda 21:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
you have shown some resepct to a newbie. trust me most of the darwinists are very egotistical and unkind.
your names seems arabic.
anyhow. i really do think creationism is a subset of ID. i think the editors here hatred of the DI has clouded their thinking. they seem to hate anyone who is not in lockstep with them. they have taunted me since day one.
i think the ID article is biased. i am also a supporter of some minority cause which i dont want to go into in this public arena. the tactics they use here a typical of a powerful entity who oppresses a weaker one. the charges are incredibly trumped up.
i am not an ID supporter. just a truth supporter. the article is slanted. it presupposed that the DI is evil. i dont see that. yes they want what they want but that is legal in the US.
i just think IDers should get a fair shake and their side should be heard.
raspor 21:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could talk to Neiondeion ( talk · contribs)? He created an article here CNBC anchors who have never held even a moderately high position in the financial field and is going around inserting a link to it in articles like David Faber (CNBC). I would revert him again, but I don't want to get close to 3RR over this. Thanks! -- Merope 21:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
(This is a reponse to your comments at user talk:Raspor)
I think your above assessment (at least in the most important, third part) ...
Third part? The third bullet was about Raspor finding inconsistencies in the use of the word "theory". Is that what you are referring to? Or was it to my fourth bullet, about NPOV?
...does not take into account the concept of undue weight. I have seen it expounded on many times but still see errors made as far as considering it goes. Intelligent design is rejected, as you say, as pseudoscience, by essentially all of the academic community.
I didn't say "essentially all", if that's what you were suggesting. I consider "essentially all" to be an exaggeration. My actual words were "majority" (which could be 50.00001%, although I'm not suggesting that's the case) and "widely-held". I've argued this sort of point about creationary scientists before. The latter are a small minority, but in this case "small" still equates to thousands (at least), so although it is small in percentage terms, it is still a large enough number to warrant the term "significant minority". I don't know what the figure is for ID scientists, but considering that the number would have to be greater (i.e. all creationary scientists clearly believe in intelligent design, plus there are non-creationists who also do), then "significant minority" would have to be a minimum description of their numbers.
This being the case, the policy of undue weight, by necessity, requires the article to address each of the given opinions on the origin of life with due weight. Because of the issues of both undue weight policy and larger consensus as a whole, in order to be fair to the readers the individual articles on ideas that do not have mainstream academic support (for example, dianetics, "hollow earth", or extraterrestrials, all of which may be supposed but with the exception of "hollow earth", are difficult to prove or disprove) must be addressed as such- and this is without even straying into the territory of whether Intelligent Design is science or philosophy. As such, I think that many of the points that you have raised above are somewhat naive in many of the assumptions that they make.
Please read WP:Undue weight again. What it actually appears to be saying is that minority views on a subject should not be given too much weight in an article about that subject. So, for example, ID should not be given too much weight in the article about evolution. I don't believe that it is saying that articles about ID should not give too much weight to ID (although such articles should, of course, still be written from a Neutral Point of View). The evolution article should be primarily about evolution, not ID. And the ID article should be primarily about ID, not about the opposition to it or the alleged problems with it. ID can be mentioned briefly in the evolution article, and opposition to ID can be mentioned briefly in the ID article. It is Wikipedia's role to explain topics, not to argue cases, and if a large part of the ID article was talking about opposition to it and problems with it, then it is arguing a case rather than explaining a topic.
Considering you compared the treatment of ID with some other topics, let's do some actual comparisons, shall we? I've just had a quick look at Dianetics, Hollow Earth, and Extraterrestrial life, and although I haven't read every word of those articles, I think my comments following are pretty accurate. (In the following, references to "criticism" are to anything negative said about the topic, including factual reporting of scientists disagreeing with the idea.)
In summary, comparing the ID article to the other three articles you mentioned shows that the ID article has "undue weight" given to criticisms of it.
Philip J. Rayment 05:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
So you don't think that the intelligent design movement’s goal is to replace science as currently practiced with “theistic and Christian science.”? Sounds like you should read the Wedge Document “Five Year Strategic Plan Summary”, or for that matter turn to Dembski's statement that ID is a “ground clearing operation” to allow Christianity to receive serious consideration, and “Christ is never an addendum to a scientific theory but always a completion.” Don't you accept, as Behe claims, that the plausibility of the argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God? I do agree that people of faith have contributed much to science, and rather like this quotation: "let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well studied in the book of God's word, or in the book of God's works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavour an endless progress or proficience in both." – Francis Bacon. .... dave souza, talk 19:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Hassour, I don't think an RFCU is really needed, because it wasn't clear whether we were dealing with sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry, and in any event it's been resolved now. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 17:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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The intelligent design page has seen people like Raspor over and over. Many of them are sent this way by Discovery Institute fellows who post "calls to action" against Wikipedia (and specific editors, including FeloniousMonk, JoshuaZ and myself). Some people come with a strong POV, argue for a while, but listen to what is said by other editors. Some of them stick around and become productive editors. Many of these complaints have improved the article by insisting that all sorts of statements be sourced. It can be tiring, but at least it helps improve the article. Others come along just to argue. While Raspor isn't the worst of them, he seems to have no interest in listening to what people say. S/he will ask a question, and when it is explained, repeat it. S/he started off asking questions that were asked - and answered - in the past. I pointed to the archives (the ID page has remarkably well-organised archives), but s/he just repeated the question.
Raspor is a classic troll. And to quote Larry, "show [people like that] the door". S/he isn't trying to improve the article - insisting that people at the ID page justify the "plethora of intermediate whale fossils" and rubbish like that. I have answered lots of Raspor's questions, only to have him/her ignore my answer and re-ask the same question lower down the page.
The only hope I can see for Raspor is a topic ban, if not a general community ban. Maybe s/he can be a productive editor on topics unrelated to creation and evolution, but I have no hope for anything better on these pages. Guettarda 21:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
you have shown some resepct to a newbie. trust me most of the darwinists are very egotistical and unkind.
your names seems arabic.
anyhow. i really do think creationism is a subset of ID. i think the editors here hatred of the DI has clouded their thinking. they seem to hate anyone who is not in lockstep with them. they have taunted me since day one.
i think the ID article is biased. i am also a supporter of some minority cause which i dont want to go into in this public arena. the tactics they use here a typical of a powerful entity who oppresses a weaker one. the charges are incredibly trumped up.
i am not an ID supporter. just a truth supporter. the article is slanted. it presupposed that the DI is evil. i dont see that. yes they want what they want but that is legal in the US.
i just think IDers should get a fair shake and their side should be heard.
raspor 21:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could talk to Neiondeion ( talk · contribs)? He created an article here CNBC anchors who have never held even a moderately high position in the financial field and is going around inserting a link to it in articles like David Faber (CNBC). I would revert him again, but I don't want to get close to 3RR over this. Thanks! -- Merope 21:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
(This is a reponse to your comments at user talk:Raspor)
I think your above assessment (at least in the most important, third part) ...
Third part? The third bullet was about Raspor finding inconsistencies in the use of the word "theory". Is that what you are referring to? Or was it to my fourth bullet, about NPOV?
...does not take into account the concept of undue weight. I have seen it expounded on many times but still see errors made as far as considering it goes. Intelligent design is rejected, as you say, as pseudoscience, by essentially all of the academic community.
I didn't say "essentially all", if that's what you were suggesting. I consider "essentially all" to be an exaggeration. My actual words were "majority" (which could be 50.00001%, although I'm not suggesting that's the case) and "widely-held". I've argued this sort of point about creationary scientists before. The latter are a small minority, but in this case "small" still equates to thousands (at least), so although it is small in percentage terms, it is still a large enough number to warrant the term "significant minority". I don't know what the figure is for ID scientists, but considering that the number would have to be greater (i.e. all creationary scientists clearly believe in intelligent design, plus there are non-creationists who also do), then "significant minority" would have to be a minimum description of their numbers.
This being the case, the policy of undue weight, by necessity, requires the article to address each of the given opinions on the origin of life with due weight. Because of the issues of both undue weight policy and larger consensus as a whole, in order to be fair to the readers the individual articles on ideas that do not have mainstream academic support (for example, dianetics, "hollow earth", or extraterrestrials, all of which may be supposed but with the exception of "hollow earth", are difficult to prove or disprove) must be addressed as such- and this is without even straying into the territory of whether Intelligent Design is science or philosophy. As such, I think that many of the points that you have raised above are somewhat naive in many of the assumptions that they make.
Please read WP:Undue weight again. What it actually appears to be saying is that minority views on a subject should not be given too much weight in an article about that subject. So, for example, ID should not be given too much weight in the article about evolution. I don't believe that it is saying that articles about ID should not give too much weight to ID (although such articles should, of course, still be written from a Neutral Point of View). The evolution article should be primarily about evolution, not ID. And the ID article should be primarily about ID, not about the opposition to it or the alleged problems with it. ID can be mentioned briefly in the evolution article, and opposition to ID can be mentioned briefly in the ID article. It is Wikipedia's role to explain topics, not to argue cases, and if a large part of the ID article was talking about opposition to it and problems with it, then it is arguing a case rather than explaining a topic.
Considering you compared the treatment of ID with some other topics, let's do some actual comparisons, shall we? I've just had a quick look at Dianetics, Hollow Earth, and Extraterrestrial life, and although I haven't read every word of those articles, I think my comments following are pretty accurate. (In the following, references to "criticism" are to anything negative said about the topic, including factual reporting of scientists disagreeing with the idea.)
In summary, comparing the ID article to the other three articles you mentioned shows that the ID article has "undue weight" given to criticisms of it.
Philip J. Rayment 05:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
So you don't think that the intelligent design movement’s goal is to replace science as currently practiced with “theistic and Christian science.”? Sounds like you should read the Wedge Document “Five Year Strategic Plan Summary”, or for that matter turn to Dembski's statement that ID is a “ground clearing operation” to allow Christianity to receive serious consideration, and “Christ is never an addendum to a scientific theory but always a completion.” Don't you accept, as Behe claims, that the plausibility of the argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God? I do agree that people of faith have contributed much to science, and rather like this quotation: "let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well studied in the book of God's word, or in the book of God's works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavour an endless progress or proficience in both." – Francis Bacon. .... dave souza, talk 19:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Hassour, I don't think an RFCU is really needed, because it wasn't clear whether we were dealing with sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry, and in any event it's been resolved now. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 17:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)