Hi Hariboneagle927, I'd like to consult on the title for Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos, and I wanted to ask you here first so we can discuss more freely than on the article talk page. My concern is less the usage of the term as a collective noun (although there are plenty of instances of usage as such, most prominently by the PCGG, and in the books by Manapat and Salonga), and more the specificity of the reference.
My understanding of the article is that it refers to the specific set of businessmen and industrialists who have been identified by investigators as having benefited from the regime, which explains the exclusion of, say, the Technocrats like Cesar Virata, Onofre Corpuz, etc, or even Imelda's Blue ladies, who are not usually referred to as "Cronies" in the formal sense. A notable recent example of the distinction is the recent attempt by Roberto Ongpin to distinguish himself as "a Technocrat, not a Crony." (see http://news.abs-cbn.com/-depth/09/22/11/ongpin-i-was-technocrat-not-crony I have no wish to comment on the veracity of such claims, of course but I'm citing it as an example of how signfificant the difference is.)
This also raises a bit of alarm on my part with the current title, which includes pretty much all "close associates" of Marcos, rather than the limited group of people who have been implicated in crony capitalism. It would be extremely unfair to lump them together, I think.
I haven't gone as far as to look for a fixed definition yet (I didn't write it), but can I solicit your thoughts please? We need to figure out how to keep some distinction between the opportunists and those who might somehow fall into the category of "marcos pal." - Alternativity ( talk) 05:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't rename the article to "Associates of Ferdinand Marcos", but originally moved it to Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos. Now that I notice the move by Power~enwiki is worrying though I assume good faith in their part. WP:POVNAMING applies, it doesn't mean the title should be totally "unbiased" but the coverage itself should adhere to NPOV. Yes, I understand that the scope of the article are not all I will rename the article back to "Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos" and start a move discussion.
- After some thought, I just realized we could rename it "Marcos crony" singular, so we don't have to worry about defining a group/ collective. Do you think that'd be okay? - Alternativity ( talk) 05:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I tbh I find the original title weird for being plural. It complies with WP:CONCISE. I will start a discussion at the talk page of the article if someone oppose the title. Hariboneagle927 ( talk) 05:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ayt, will join the discussion there. Always a pleasure editing with you. :D - Alternativity ( talk) 05:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Rodolfo Cuenca
Given your interest in the Cronies article, I was wondering if you might be interested in commenting in the AFD for Rodolfo Cuenca. I'm sure there are enough references to pass WP:GNG, but the article needs revision methinks. I'd post suggestions but I'm working on a different article right now and might not be able to comment right away. Seems up your alley so I wondered if you'd be interested. Alternativity ( talk) 14:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, I made some revisions on the article and provisionally removed some info (regarding Cuenca being a college dropout). But I'm assuming you have access in some references that support these uncited facts (such as the Executive Committee document). Maybe you could add these later. Also there are some facts that need some citations like the criticism of the San Juanico Bridge. The PIA source only supports the fact that the bridge is a birthday present no mention of the criticism on the lack of traffic. I also commented on the deletion discussion.
Hariboneagle927 (
talk) 09:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
- I managed to chime in myself too, after you. I'll try to help with the cleanup as much as I can. - Alternativity ( talk) 05:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Template:Largest cities of Iceland has been
nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --
wooden
superman 15:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi Hariboneagle927, I'd like to consult on the title for Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos, and I wanted to ask you here first so we can discuss more freely than on the article talk page. My concern is less the usage of the term as a collective noun (although there are plenty of instances of usage as such, most prominently by the PCGG, and in the books by Manapat and Salonga), and more the specificity of the reference.
My understanding of the article is that it refers to the specific set of businessmen and industrialists who have been identified by investigators as having benefited from the regime, which explains the exclusion of, say, the Technocrats like Cesar Virata, Onofre Corpuz, etc, or even Imelda's Blue ladies, who are not usually referred to as "Cronies" in the formal sense. A notable recent example of the distinction is the recent attempt by Roberto Ongpin to distinguish himself as "a Technocrat, not a Crony." (see http://news.abs-cbn.com/-depth/09/22/11/ongpin-i-was-technocrat-not-crony I have no wish to comment on the veracity of such claims, of course but I'm citing it as an example of how signfificant the difference is.)
This also raises a bit of alarm on my part with the current title, which includes pretty much all "close associates" of Marcos, rather than the limited group of people who have been implicated in crony capitalism. It would be extremely unfair to lump them together, I think.
I haven't gone as far as to look for a fixed definition yet (I didn't write it), but can I solicit your thoughts please? We need to figure out how to keep some distinction between the opportunists and those who might somehow fall into the category of "marcos pal." - Alternativity ( talk) 05:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't rename the article to "Associates of Ferdinand Marcos", but originally moved it to Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos. Now that I notice the move by Power~enwiki is worrying though I assume good faith in their part. WP:POVNAMING applies, it doesn't mean the title should be totally "unbiased" but the coverage itself should adhere to NPOV. Yes, I understand that the scope of the article are not all I will rename the article back to "Cronies of Ferdinand Marcos" and start a move discussion.
- After some thought, I just realized we could rename it "Marcos crony" singular, so we don't have to worry about defining a group/ collective. Do you think that'd be okay? - Alternativity ( talk) 05:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I tbh I find the original title weird for being plural. It complies with WP:CONCISE. I will start a discussion at the talk page of the article if someone oppose the title. Hariboneagle927 ( talk) 05:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ayt, will join the discussion there. Always a pleasure editing with you. :D - Alternativity ( talk) 05:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Rodolfo Cuenca
Given your interest in the Cronies article, I was wondering if you might be interested in commenting in the AFD for Rodolfo Cuenca. I'm sure there are enough references to pass WP:GNG, but the article needs revision methinks. I'd post suggestions but I'm working on a different article right now and might not be able to comment right away. Seems up your alley so I wondered if you'd be interested. Alternativity ( talk) 14:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, I made some revisions on the article and provisionally removed some info (regarding Cuenca being a college dropout). But I'm assuming you have access in some references that support these uncited facts (such as the Executive Committee document). Maybe you could add these later. Also there are some facts that need some citations like the criticism of the San Juanico Bridge. The PIA source only supports the fact that the bridge is a birthday present no mention of the criticism on the lack of traffic. I also commented on the deletion discussion.
Hariboneagle927 (
talk) 09:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
- I managed to chime in myself too, after you. I'll try to help with the cleanup as much as I can. - Alternativity ( talk) 05:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Template:Largest cities of Iceland has been
nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --
wooden
superman 15:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)