Creating a place to put AlexR because it seems like I will need to be able to have this in the future.

I need to understand about WP Policy.

In Voice Feminization AlexR has been making repeated reverts (4 in less than 24 hours on 22 May 2006. These revisions revolve around two words ciswoman and woman (see Talk:Voice_feminization#RFC for summary of changes.)

I believe the content of cisgender was modified reprehensibly just to prove a point. Which I believe is against quoted policy. And the same policy states to act Civility but AlexR is rude, judgmental and is constantly belittling contributors because of their language skills or word choice plus using profanity (see history [1] 17:55, 22 May 2006 )

My question is, as a new user can I use the Templates in Template_messages/Disputes to get the offending and untrue entries looked at in cisgender and bring AlexR's dishonorable actions to light? I know I can be bold and just remove them, but I don't want to start another edit war with this individual. I want the constant reverts to stop and the arguments to cease. I hope that if I act rationally and civilly, even though I am less than a week and AlexR has been here since 26 Dec 2006, that I should be treated fairly.

And finally, there are also templates in Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace. As a new user am I allowed to use them? Are there any guidelines for their use?

Thank you,

Yes anyone can add a Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes to a page. Yes anyone can add a Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace to a user's talk page (although a personal message would be better, templates like that are generally reserved for vandalism and there isn't any vandalism going on in this case).

The article RfC that has been filed is just about content. Don't make it personal, on the article's talk page only discuss content not editors.

About the civility and things, I think the user is being generally reasonable, just let it go (forget it) and try to work on the article. I will post a short message on AlexR's talk page, I think that's all that is required.-- Commander Keane 11:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC) reply

You said: "You were using the term ciswoman as interchangeable with woman". That is such a mischaracterisation that it is insulting. I made those changes precisely because you wrote "women" and obviously meant "ciswomen". And btw, I changed it to "cisgender" women, not that abominal "cisgendered". Same as with transgendered that is not a word, that is an abomination, since transgender -- and therefore, cisgender -- are already both nouns and adjectives. Also, ciswoman and cismen are not neologisms, they are analogously coined. I also can't really take your "that is what I wanted" serious, since if that had been what you wanted, you could have done so yourself. As for your civil-substs, you can put as many of them on my talk page as you want, I will just delete them.

You were insulting, both to me and to all transpeople, you have filled talkpages with mindless rants, you say I have done things that are the precise opposite I have done, you insulted me and lied about me, and you reverted the article several times just out of spite, with no arguments whatsover, to an incorrect and insulting version. And that is not even mentioning what you did in your previous incarnation. So if you claim that I have been incivil, that was at the very least a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Unlike you, though, I did not, while on the talk page claiming otherwise, state that transwomen were no "women" and transmen therefore are.

So you can cut the crap about agreeing with my work, because I sincerely doubt you understood anything about it. You at least did not understand what I said on the talk page. And regarding the welcome message -- I have never put one of those on any talk page, and I would certainly not put it on the talk page of a person who, just because she did it, claims to be an expert, and writes articles that ignore both transmen and non-transsexual transgender people, and then whines for days over edits to "her" articles. Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, you have shown no reason whatsoever that would make me welcome you here. Maybe that will change, but that would require some serious improvements in your manners and style. Until that admittedly highly unlikely event, I sure hope we don't run into each other again. -- AlexR 16:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Well, I think I agree with Comander Keen, we should just let it go. Alex is obviously not interested in discussion, at least not without insults. I'm going to set my sights on my favorite articles, such as Pachuca, Mexico. Hope to see more articles from you. Czolgolz 01:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC) reply

It'll be interesting to see how Alex responds to this. Hey, are you the same as Voice of One, or different? 01:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry that VOO dropped wiki, she wrote a good article. Alex tends to think discussion means being abusive to those who don't agree with him. Give my love to VOO and I hope to see more from you. PS If you read Alex's talk pages, it's funny to see him repeatedly warned by the administration (before he deletes them) Czolgolz 22:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Well, looks like Alex took his bat and ball and went home. He's trying to make it look like it was you, but in reality, several editors warned him they were going to block him if he didn't watch it. So good for you for helping make wikipedia a kinder place. Czolgolz 02:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC) reply

[2]

Since I revert your "comments" on my talk page without reading, you can stop wasting my time and yours by staying away. I might also add that you have no idea whatsover why I left the German WP, so stop making up slandering stories. -- AlexR 06:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC) reply

You may add your comments if you'd like. Catamorphism 11:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC) reply

How about learning German? Your comments don't even make sense. And I don't want them on my talk page, so I delete them immediately. So stop bothering. And you might try to understand what you read, too -- your references to the reference guidelines don't exactly sound as if you understand them. Which is hardly surprising. And BTW, your article on Voice feminization still is very short on your precious references, too. So what exactly are you complaing about? -- AlexR 14:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Hi FemVoice, thanks for your comment on my talk page. It does look like a problem. I think if a high density of someone's edits are personal attacks, and if they've been warned enough times, someone can make a request to an admin to block them, at least for a while. I may try to do that if things don't get better. -- Allen 01:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC) reply

I've entered this as a mediator, I'm not sure there is much debate remaining, but I hope we can find some form of agreement where everyone is, well, at least non-combative... Are you happy with the page in its current state? With the definitions of cisman and ciswoman included? I understand and share a concern with regard to the need for sources but like you said earlier on Talk:Cisgender removing this would probably make it a suitable idea to remove the redirect pages for cisman and ciswoman as well. Usrnme h8er 16:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Well, since AlexR has chosen not to partake in the mediation, I'm going to have to consider the mediation to have reached a consensus... Do you feel that you and User:Catamorphism can agree about page content on the talk page? Or do you want the mediation to remain open? -- Usrnme h8er 20:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Whom do you think you can fool with your odd mixture of threats and your dishones compliments?

• You have said that I slandered (Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.) you. How? I read your few examples and I guess that they could be misconstrued by someone. But are nothing compared to your blatant attacks and vulgarities.

• • Oh, so whatever you did to provoke the behavoir you are complaining about (and to which I admitted that I was not exactly at my best aver being provoked like this) do count nothing compated to my slips? Funny idea ... [AR]

• • • If I did anything that warrants an apology. I am sorry for whatever affronts that I may have caused your delicate nature. [FV]

[AR] And who gives you the right to delete content from my talk page, and fill it yet again with your insincere rants?

• Sorry, I just thought you wouldn't mind, since you deleted mediation cabal and called me a bitch in the process. You did after all say on Revision as of 15:13, 6 June 2006(Go to hell, all of you ... and see whether that bitch will do as much work as I do).

• • Removing somebodies lies and slanders from a mediation case (as I have already said elsewhere, too, not my best idea) is obviously different from removing something from somebody elses talk page after having been told countless times that I don't want your rants there. [AR]

• • • Kind of like what you just did to my talk page. You are an adult, act like one. [FV]

• • • Alex, (frustrated) why do I bother you? Take a look at my history and yours from day one. Nothing, I have done should have caused you to react. And even if you were of a mind to take it out on me, why the others? All of my experience as a consoler says that you need to talk to someone, and I know that I am not the person for that, maybe someone that you can trust. In person - get it out and off of your chest. Please, before you have a heart attack. Or take it out on someone in the real world. Please, talk to someone about what I have done that is so terrible that you will take the time to come after a page that is away from view and move it out into view again. I know everything that is said here is a permanent record. I erase half of my comments and try to be calm when talking to you. Now, I don't have to be calm... I am concerned. You can call in insincere if you like, but please talk with someone. This isn't right. [FV}

[AR] Do you seriously expect me to just forget the lies you told about me and the slander you spread around?

• No, I figure that you will keep on trying to invent some imaginary case that others are out to get you. The poor guy ( User:Usrnme_h8er ) saw someone blanking a page which is against wikipedia policy (Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to reduce the quality of the encyclopedia. The most common type of vandalism is the replacement of existing text with obscenities, page blanking,...) and responds. That is not a lie, and not slander. It is what you did.

• • I did - but I still consider it not appropriate for this guy then to act as if he had been elected by both sides as mediator, which he was definitely not. And as for vandalism - lies and slander are constantly deleted from WP; I should have, I admitt, only removed those, not the rest of the page. Nevertheless, vandalism is something different. [AR]

• • • (Shrug) - You may be right. He thought he was just trying to help. I can kind of understand and feel for him. Getting in between two cats and trying to be neutral. Especially after what you did to the page. I think he was just trying to help. He read what I said and thought it was ok - not because he was my sockpuppet, but because he did not have the emotional haze that you are looking through. I just feel sorry for him. [FV]

• You imagine insults were none exist, and have to take minute pieces to create the implied insult and when others look, they don't see the imagined slights that you do.

• • What others see and what not we should leave to them, shouldn't we? [AR]

• • • I agree... I wonder what [ Commander Keane], [ Amcbride], [ Jkelly], [ h8er] who found you blanking the mediation page, [ Musical Linguist], [ Catamorphism] who warned you that Removing warnings from your talk page is considered vandalism, [ StrangeLove] would have to say about it? Maybe to not feed the troll... That is what this feels like, you are bating me and Each time I reply, I am feeding a troll...

[AR] You don't even bother to appologise for them and your harassment.

• I can not apologize for something I didn't do or something that you imagined that I did. I am sorry that I hurt you feelings and " I feel terrible that I upset you". And since you have made your case, I will no longer put anything on your user talk page.

• • Uhm, isn't that nice? But lying and slandering is not just something that personally upsets people (of course it sure does), it is meant to obliterate a person. Which does not go exactly well with your constant professions of how much you respect me. Oh, and nice that you will leave my talk page alone, after I asked for that for weeks now. [AR]

• • • I didn't lie, I pointed out that you were flawed, and that you were not being nice... That I can agree with. But if you hadn't done what you did, how would [ Commander Keane], [ Amcbride], [ Jkelly], [ h8er] who found you blanking the mediation page, [ Musical Linguist], [ Catamorphism] who warned you that Removing warnings from your talk page is considered vandalism, [ StrangeLove] they have any reason to place warnings on your talk page, that you deleted and then called them a sockpuppet of mine. God, I feel honored to have a sockpuppet that has been here as long as cat. [FV]

[AR] Mind you, I may not have been at my best myself, but I didn't get completely hysterical over two minor changes in "your" article and went out to harass anybody.

• No, with words like asshole, Bullshit, Go to hell, all of you, bitch and or course I must not forget the slander
  • " Especially by nuts who are too stupid or too dense to use Google",
  • " Both are obviously nutcases and vandals",
  • " And you can shove it where the moon don't shine",
  • " (revert - corrupt and lying admins I don't want to see here, either)",
  • " Of course, you may be too stupid to see that",
  • " you obviously would not recognise truthfullness if it jumped on you and bit you"

• • As I already said, after being harassed by you for two weeks, I was not at my best. Unlike you, I took a step back and decided it was time to get my blood pressure down. [AR]

• • • Please stand away from the cookies. But officer, I was just looking. Away! But... BANG. I am dead because I didn't listen. Ok, you are right, and I am wrong - are you happy? Can we both go back to work?

[AR] I can easily understand why you are hard to work with, after having been harassed by you for weeks.

• It is my attention to detail that makes me hard to work with, my exactness when others are lazy. I don't harass people at work or anyplace else that I can think of. Only in your imagination.

• • Yeah, and harassing people who dare make minor corrections to "your" article for weeks has nothing to do with it. Right. [AR]

• • • Minor? Who's article? I don't have an article! And if you consider putting down edits like

(ciswoman and cisman are not in common use - search of google indicated that ciswoman is not commonly used)

[3] [4] Wow, that was a good one, I even impressed myself. [5]

• • • Yes, I guess you could consider those harassment, and bad edits... Noting like asshole, Bullshit, Go to hell, all of you, bitch. But you had an excuse, my sockpuppets? Maybe you had a twinkie...

[AR] I also intend to neither work "with you" not "against you".

• That sounds fair.

[AR] You do not seem to understand that some people are here because they care about Wikipedia, not their egos, which must be your motivation here, judging from this remark.

• What remark? I have no ego here, I know I am a slow methodical person. I know that by the rules here, that they will go with me instead of you, even though you have thousands of biased edits.

• • How about "If you work with me, you can guide my energy. If you work against me, you will be working against my energy." and similar from [6]. Oh, of course, I will just have misunderstood you again. My bad. [AR]

• • • Alex - If you think I am wrong then talk to me and discuss it. Otherwise, we end up with BS like what is here and the real work does not get done. Take two steps back away from the cookies and look at them for what they are. I am trying to understand your feelings here and keep open communications, but even my saint like patience has a limit. Lets just drop this and go back to work?

[AR] I couldn't care less about you personaly, all I care about is whether you improve Wikipedia or not. (And, given your recent behaviour, whether you stop harassing me.)

• From the number of complaints and posts that you should behave on your talk page, it shows.

• • Yeah, right. The comments by you and your stooges after provoking me for weeks is a perfect indicator for the work I have done in the past 2 1/2 years. [AR]

• • • Alex, I do not have any stooges. They are normal people that don't know me from a hill of beans. They just happened into this and I actually feel sorry for them. But considering some of the comments that I have read that others have said about your leaving... I expect you have pissed off several people in the last couple of years. Instead of keeping this going, how about we get back to work and clean up some of the articles that do not have any references, before the gods figure it out and take their wrath out on what it is that we would like to keep.

[AR] Which means your edit will not be judged by the fact that they are yours, but by their content.

• Catamorphism judged them, and you ignored that and started calling her names. You didn't judge my edits, you erased them out of hand and even admitted it later.

WHAT NO COMMENTS ABOUT THAT ONE?... hmmmm...

[AR] Should you, however, just because I refuse your offer of "working together" (something I sincerely doubt you would be able to anyway; and I certainly do not wish to have anything to do with you in the future), you start working against me, you will find yourself on the receiving end of of a dispute resolution, and in places where no would-be moderator can close cases just as he likes, either.

• Alex, if you want to take me to a real dispute, go right ahead. With your imagination, it will take a little work, but after blanking pages, adding content to make a point, confusing Catamorphism and Czolgolz in an argument, removing warnings from your talk page, violating the three revert rule, and general hostility to everyone that trys to talk to you about this, you will certainly loose. You have been here long enough, you should know better. Arguments like " Understandably angry, I blanked the page twice completely, wishing to obliterate this slander and lies" will not fly with them, and you should know that.

[AR] The same goes for other threads, like putting up Cisgender for deletion -- that has already been tried, and there is no reason you are going to be any more successfull.

• I wish you could read english and understand what you read. Which brings up a subject that I would like you to understand up front, I WILL NOT DO. Where did I make a threat to get it deleted? I said " I considered putting cisgender up for Afd because it does not fit the criteria that Wikipedia has for articles. I know I could defend its removal, but I don't want to do that." - THERE IS NO THREAT! I stated my opinion. I said I wanted it to stay, even though I know the rules say it should go. How did you ever confuse that? (shaking head)

• • I am perfectly capable of reading English, and that sure sounds like a thread to me. "If you don't behave I will ...". Maybe you should read your own texts better?

• • • What is a thread? Or do you mean threat? Do me a favor - when you go to your friend, have them read the statment in question and when they come back and say that it was me trying to make sure that you understood that I want to keep an article, continue talking with them, because, I can not help you work through your issues in little notes. It will take more than just words. And try to listen to them, they after all are trying to help you.

[AR] The thread does show, however, that it is certainly not the improvement of Wikipedia you have in mind.

• Since it was not a threat, you are obviously creating some kind of delusion in your mind. You need to learn to read with understanding. See previous.

• • Then maybe you should learn how to write without those seeming threads. Might be difficult, though. [AR]

• • • Get some help. Your delusions are getting worse, if you actually believe that is a threat!

[AR] I really don't wish to spend more time on this nutcase case, but if you force me, then you - and you alone - are responsible for the result.

• Bring it on. The result will be that in your imagination everyone is against you with lies and slander. Are you comfortable with every edit you have made here? Including blanking pages? I am new here, and you bit me on my first day. I have been trying to be nice, and it does not seem to be working at all. So, bring it on and you can then believe that the people that you asked to berate me are liars and my stooges.

• • I did not, but hey, who cares about facts. And where exactly have you tried to be nice? I cannot recall a single instance, unless you wish to count your thoroughly insincere compliements which always where coupled with threats, lies, and insults, as being "nice". And whom exactly have I "berated"? [AR]

• • • If everything I say is insincere, why even bother talking to me. I should be beneath you. Surly I am not worth talking to. Please treat me as if I am not worth talking to...

[AR] So kindly leave me in peace and stop harassing me. (That includes further deletions and/or comments on my talk page.)

• I never brought the mediation case up, Catamorphism did. She included me in it, and you freaked when I responded. She would not have brought it up, except you were reverting without thought because you saw an edit I made. You did not read my research, or even consider that I have anything valid to offer here. You need to grow up!

• • Oh yeah, I am the one that needs to grow up? I have a hint for you: Lying and slandering won't work forever for you, either. [AR]

• • • ? Whatever - I can document what you did - so you violated the three revert rule - I guess, if you think that is a lie, it must be because all I am is a lier to you. I really do wish you would treat me as if I am not worth talking to...

[AR] It will probably be inevitable that we meet again, but I would very much appreciate if you would try to stick to the issued at hand, and not get personal.

• pfft! Who got personal with words like asshole, Bullshit, Go to hell, all of you, bitch and or course I must not forget the slander
  • " Especially by nuts who are too stupid or too dense to use Google",
  • " Both are obviously nutcases and vandals",
  • " And you can shove it where the moon don't shine",
  • " (revert - corrupt and lying admins I don't want to see here, either)",
  • " Of course, you may be too stupid to see that",
  • " you obviously would not recognise truthfullness if it jumped on you and bit you"

• • For which I already appologied. Well most of it. Particularly the last comment is still perfectly appropriate. [AR]

• • • (laughing) I am sorry for whatever harm, real or imagined that I have caused you. But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively. I must be tired, this is just seeming to be really weird and just too surreal.

[AR] I am definitely not interested in any personal communication with you. Neither now, nor in the future.

• From every revert with comment of rvv you have made, you show that you have no interest in actually reading and understanding that my edits have had merit. Some of the user talk? Not so much, but my edits are not biased and are based off of verifiable information and not your opinion.

• • Right. That goes particilarly for those in which you personally attacked me. Perfectly unbiased, that. [AR]

• • • (shrug) I wish you would give me examples, but since you didn't, it doesn't matter... I am sorry for whatever harm, real or imagined that I have caused you. But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

[AR] -- AlexR 20:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC) reply

• FemVoice 04:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Overall, nice try, but I think I will let the readers jusge by the link you did provide about whether you did slander and harass me and lied about me. It is so bloody obvious that you did that not even your try with the less-than-perfect remarks, which I made in reaction to your behaviour (and for which I, unlike you, appologised) will change anybodies mind about that. But, this is dragging into a non-communication which I am not even interested in, and it is just another obvious example of your behaviour, so how about an EOD? Means you can delete that page you made extra for me as well ... obviously, you are not trying to quite your lies, slander, and harassment, but I am tired of trying to communicate with somebody who keeps going on and on and on with such behaviour. What you want is an acknowledgement that I am the worst person who ever walked this planet and a complete surrender to your imagined superioritiy. You are not going to get it, neither with further lies and attacks, not with insincere compliments. And frankly, the WP has seen so many nutcases in the past, I am quite sure that people are capable of making up their own minds about this case. And, trusting in this, I think it is really time for an EDO. -- AlexR 14:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Alex, can you please spell check what you are writing. I know you are a better writer than what you typed above shows.

1) no one is reading our garbage.

2) Even if they are, all they are doing is laughing at either you or I for beings so stupid as to carry this on for as long as it has gone on.

3) I am sorry for whatever harm, real or imagined that I have caused you. But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

4) Others have looked at what I wrote and said that Having read user:FemVoice response doesn't indicate anything that could be considered slander.

5) WE AGREE! But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

6) that I actually am feeding... ah, never mind - I am sorry for whatever harm, real or imagined that I have caused you. But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

7) EOD. I tried that a week ago, and was told that no way was I going to get away with it after harrasing you... Yes, I AGREE. EOD.

8) Wiki - nothing is ever gone... Besides, I haven't deleted anything anyplace - I moved things around, but I never deleted them. Even the stuff that you said was deleted, was just moved to the talk pages so that it could be looked at and evalutated for correctness and so that others would understand, I don't delete. Even here, I didn't delete content, I just moved what you had to this page. Unlike you, that deleted content on my talk page by the way that you... oop.. no, you are right - I did delete the lies and slander off of your talk page about me... but I didn't delete the warnings... you did that.

9) And this page will stay. It is easier than having to go through all of the comments that you have made that have vulgarities in them. Think of it as my wall of shame. I am ashamed that I even went along with your insults. I am sorry for whatever harm, real or imagined that I have caused you. But keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

10) Whatever.

11) can you place the links of harassment and itemize them... better yet, can you source the reference for syswoman that is real and not a tag line? That would be far more productive than this...

12) "I am tired of trying to communicate with somebody who keeps going on and on and on with such behaviour" Dito!

13) "What you want is an acknowledgement that I am the worst person who ever walked this planet and a complete surrender to your imagined superioritiy. " No, I want you to go back to work and start acting like a rational human being.

14) "And frankly, the WP has seen so many nutcases in the past, I am quite sure that people are capable of making up their own minds about this case." keeping this up, will only look bad for both of us, and I would rather spend my time more productively.

15) "And, trusting in this, I think it is really time for an EDO" The Edo period is also known as Tokugawa Era or Early Modern Japan. I think you mean EOD. End of Discussion.