My little straw poll was deleted as a personal attack. The next step would be a request for comment. Interested in the idea? — Davenbelle 00:58, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix. Could you please put your email address in to your preferences on this site? Without the ability to email you privately and confidentially, I am unable to reply to your message to my talk page. Alternatively, you can email me at ultrablue@gmail.com and I will reply to you. - Mark 02:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You may have not noticed but wikipedia is more than just armenian genocide, try editing other articles. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:02, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, thanks for your message. I don't think I want to get involved in the Armenian genocide article just now. I have enough difficult articles on my list and it's not a subject I have done much reading on.
Memo Fadix and Coolcat. Everyone at Wikipedia is thoroughly sick of petty Greek v Turkish nationalist feuding. You are nearly as bad as the Poles, and that's saying something. Adam 04:05, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The whole point of protection is to get it to go away by reaching a concensus/agreement. You can ask if he's willing to tag it with {{twoversions}} instead, which seems like a good solution (I'd be willing to do that). All he's trying to do is get this dispute resolved. If you're going to report him, that's unlikely to happen. Instead of attacking him for this, try to be constructive and get the article unprotected by proper discussion. If you still want to you can open a admin conduct RfC. - Mgm| (talk) 07:24, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
I urge you to STOP your personal attacks directed at me at tony and at anyone else to a complete stop. This is my last attempt to talk to you to comply. I woupld prefer a civil tone. Declaring me of things is agains wikipedia policy. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:30, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix - please drop me an email re: Armeniapedia.org -- RaffiKojian 04:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
May I learn about your academic background regarding Armenian genocide and your relation to Turkey? Cezveci 08:22, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As I said when I protected the page, I'd like you all to discuss the article and reach agreement about what the article should contain. This is to ensure that when I do unprotect it you won't all drift back to an edit war. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 11:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee -- Cool Cat My Talk 00:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix, User:Coolcat has deleted criticism of himself on Talk:Armenian Genocide; your criticism.
— Davenbelle 12:30, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Thing is, Fadix, that you came to me March 26th [3] alleging that Coolcat had performed vandalism on the Armenian Genocide article. You told me "I wan't this guy out of the Armenian Genocide section and EVERY entries regarding Armenians" You threatened to go to University history faculties and get a petition to "slap it on his face."
On that day, Coolcat had performed only these edits: [4] which you had just reverted:
Examining the changes made and your reaction to them, I formulate the opinion that you were crying "wolf!"
You again reverted some Coolcat edits on 31 March, referring to those as "vandalism".
Another user (which you allege was a Coolcat sock) made some edits which you then reverted.
It was at this stage that I observed a pattern of obstructiveness and false claims of vandalism. Such behavior is contrary to the Wikipedia guidelines and policy. To give you (and others) the opportunity to discuss changes to the article properly and stop making emotive accusations and edit warring like this, I restored the last edit that you had reverted, and protected the article. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:38, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well you say it's amazing that I "don't see the trick of this". Perhaps it's rather subtle. Could you show me which two paragraphs are merged and why this changes the meaning so radically as to merit the name "vandalism"?
Could you also clarify which section you're referring to when you say "there is no such thing as Jurispurdences when the Jursiprudences is till under debate." I've looked in the article for the word jurisprudence and I don't see it.
And be careful, there, you seem to be accusing me of bad faith, as you have previously accused Cool Cat. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 18:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The camps section, those cuts were done to add more materials, he has merged it and packed them. To make such changes, they must be based on valid reasons, not personal tastes... many of those changes did not need to be made, they were made, like others(including Armenia entry) after Coolcat was accused to edit articles he did not like. He just made them to claim making grammar changes. Besides, I was not the only reverting such changes he claimed to be only grammar, he did that in other articles about the same time. He is just trying to officialize the article to claim having worked on it with irrelevant changes.
Coming to Jurisprudence. My uses of the word has nothing to do with the article, but your uses of my charges against Coolcat to judge my further claim of vandalism against the new member.
Again, it seem that you are missing the entire point. Let me clarify yet again for you.
Armenian genocide REPLACED WITH Armenian relocation. He replaced what the name of the article is about with such a term. This IS vandalism.
“Following Ottoman Empire's entry in WWI, the Imperial Russia has invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and Muslim communities were interleaved.” This is recorded inaccurate information, soon during the War the Ottoman Empire tried to invade and was defeated in December 1914-January 1915. Not only this information is POV, but it is even presented no0t as a position, but as a historical truth.
“Taking advantage of common religion and recent discomfort of the Armenian community in Ottoman Empire, Russia was promoting Armenian nationalism and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. Late in 1914, Russian supported and tranied Armenian militia started treachery and attacking on muslim villages.” There was no such thing as an Armenian attack of Muslim villages in 1914. Not only does he do it in a POV way, but he does present it as fact.
He added “Eastern front” for the Armenian population movement, as to claim that only these Armenians were moved, when this claim is even not supported by Turkish materials. Not only does he do it in a POV way, but present it as fact.
“There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including Taner Akçam and Halil Berktay. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists, these scholars freely express and publish their opinions in Turkey.” This was an edit in reference to the Turkish new penal code, that makes it possible to condemn someone to 10 years of prison, who support the theses of genocide. While I refer to that, Mr. New aliases delete it and makes a POV presented as fact.
“However, the Armenian propagandists falsely claim that confirming the so-called genocide is a crime subject to imprisonment in Turkey. Orhan Pamuk, a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the press that he believes that a million Armenians were killed in Turkey.” Not only does he ad “so-called” before the word genocide, but he even makes statement to “Armenian propagandist” which is simply untrue and offensing.
He replaces the “Turkish” government, for “Ottoman” government, when the treatment is about the current theses of the Turkish government.
He adds Torques website and claim it to be a site from “A site by some Turkish and American scholars.” When I have in countless occasions justified the deleting of that site. And he add another site, which present the same materials as another link that is already there.
He adds: “ 1975: ASALA, a terrorist group that claimed recognition of genocide by Turkish government, was founded. Backed by some western countries, the group has killed several civilians and Turkish diplomats in various bombings and assasinations until the early 80's.” The way it is worded make it seem, rightly as something that is unrelated with the article.
“ March 1, 2005: Two Armenian historians withdrew from the second Vienna Armenian-Turkish Platform meeting to be held in May, which was arranged for document exchange between Turkish and Armenian historians.” This information has been known to be a complete fabrication, the historians that have allegedly redrawn, have testified, that they have never engaged in those meetings in the first place, and that there was no first meeting as claimed. Halacoglu lied about Akcam refusing, and I was there during a Symposium, when Akcam said exactly what happened and what was his real answer.
“ March, 2005: Poltical parties in Turkey came togerther made a declaration to invite Armenia to bring together a committee of historians from both sides to clarify the historical accounts in cooperation. The Armenian foreign minister rejected the invitation immediately, stating that "the genocide is a matter of politics, not history".” This information is not accurate, the Armenian foreign minister has never made such remarks, this add-on, actually has no place here.
As one can realize, my claims of vandalism against this member, that BTW modified it the way Coolcat wanted it, is supported, while I have reported this to you, you have positioned in favor of Coolcat and even going as far as accusing me.
Perhaps, shall I go before the dates which you report and start showing the other attempts of coolcat? Fadix 19:25, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope this is okay. I added some section headers to try and organize things a bit. If they get in the way please remove them.
On the camps section, you say " those cuts were done to add more materials, he has merged it and packed them." But in the camps section all he did was correct some spelling and grammar! He fixed wikilinks so they worked. He made sentences of indifferent English into good English.
You have a point on the "jurisprudence" section. Having seen incomprehensible, unsupported charges of vandalism from you I *am* predisposed to ignore your claims of vandalism without some pretty good evidence.
We've been through the Cezveci edits and I think you're right, it's not a good version. But I didn't protect the article because I thought you were destroying good edits, but I knew that you already had gotten into that bad habit and that you appeared to be reckless about doing so.
I don't see much point in discussing Coolcat's alleged wrongdoings since you still seem to think that you did nothing wrong on your revert of 26th March.
Now I think we're pretty close to having a good consensus that Coolcat won't be able to make out that there's a debate about whether mass murder occurred. A number of people have weighed in and Coolcat hasn't really rebutted them. I've had to remove a *lot* of nonsense concerned with attacking Coolcat in order to get down to that point. Please try to bring the discussion to a reasonable conclusion and suggest a form of words such as "all/the vast majority of scholars are agreed that hundreds of thousands, probably around a million, Armenians were killed as a result of these relocations and there is no room for doubt that these deaths were foreseeable and preventable, and therefore deliberate." All Coolcat can then do, I guess, is a bit of handwaving, and he'll be unlikely to find many supporters unless he does come up with new, verifiable facts that neither you nor I know about yet. At that point you'll basically have a consensus that for a form of the article that cannot leave the reader in any doubt. At which point, the purpose of the protection having been served, the article will be made editable again. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My little straw poll was deleted as a personal attack. The next step would be a request for comment. Interested in the idea? — Davenbelle 00:58, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix. Could you please put your email address in to your preferences on this site? Without the ability to email you privately and confidentially, I am unable to reply to your message to my talk page. Alternatively, you can email me at ultrablue@gmail.com and I will reply to you. - Mark 02:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You may have not noticed but wikipedia is more than just armenian genocide, try editing other articles. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:02, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fadix, thanks for your message. I don't think I want to get involved in the Armenian genocide article just now. I have enough difficult articles on my list and it's not a subject I have done much reading on.
Memo Fadix and Coolcat. Everyone at Wikipedia is thoroughly sick of petty Greek v Turkish nationalist feuding. You are nearly as bad as the Poles, and that's saying something. Adam 04:05, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The whole point of protection is to get it to go away by reaching a concensus/agreement. You can ask if he's willing to tag it with {{twoversions}} instead, which seems like a good solution (I'd be willing to do that). All he's trying to do is get this dispute resolved. If you're going to report him, that's unlikely to happen. Instead of attacking him for this, try to be constructive and get the article unprotected by proper discussion. If you still want to you can open a admin conduct RfC. - Mgm| (talk) 07:24, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
I urge you to STOP your personal attacks directed at me at tony and at anyone else to a complete stop. This is my last attempt to talk to you to comply. I woupld prefer a civil tone. Declaring me of things is agains wikipedia policy. -- Cool Cat My Talk 22:30, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix - please drop me an email re: Armeniapedia.org -- RaffiKojian 04:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
May I learn about your academic background regarding Armenian genocide and your relation to Turkey? Cezveci 08:22, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As I said when I protected the page, I'd like you all to discuss the article and reach agreement about what the article should contain. This is to ensure that when I do unprotect it you won't all drift back to an edit war. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 11:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee -- Cool Cat My Talk 00:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi Fadix, User:Coolcat has deleted criticism of himself on Talk:Armenian Genocide; your criticism.
— Davenbelle 12:30, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Thing is, Fadix, that you came to me March 26th [3] alleging that Coolcat had performed vandalism on the Armenian Genocide article. You told me "I wan't this guy out of the Armenian Genocide section and EVERY entries regarding Armenians" You threatened to go to University history faculties and get a petition to "slap it on his face."
On that day, Coolcat had performed only these edits: [4] which you had just reverted:
Examining the changes made and your reaction to them, I formulate the opinion that you were crying "wolf!"
You again reverted some Coolcat edits on 31 March, referring to those as "vandalism".
Another user (which you allege was a Coolcat sock) made some edits which you then reverted.
It was at this stage that I observed a pattern of obstructiveness and false claims of vandalism. Such behavior is contrary to the Wikipedia guidelines and policy. To give you (and others) the opportunity to discuss changes to the article properly and stop making emotive accusations and edit warring like this, I restored the last edit that you had reverted, and protected the article. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:38, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well you say it's amazing that I "don't see the trick of this". Perhaps it's rather subtle. Could you show me which two paragraphs are merged and why this changes the meaning so radically as to merit the name "vandalism"?
Could you also clarify which section you're referring to when you say "there is no such thing as Jurispurdences when the Jursiprudences is till under debate." I've looked in the article for the word jurisprudence and I don't see it.
And be careful, there, you seem to be accusing me of bad faith, as you have previously accused Cool Cat. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 18:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The camps section, those cuts were done to add more materials, he has merged it and packed them. To make such changes, they must be based on valid reasons, not personal tastes... many of those changes did not need to be made, they were made, like others(including Armenia entry) after Coolcat was accused to edit articles he did not like. He just made them to claim making grammar changes. Besides, I was not the only reverting such changes he claimed to be only grammar, he did that in other articles about the same time. He is just trying to officialize the article to claim having worked on it with irrelevant changes.
Coming to Jurisprudence. My uses of the word has nothing to do with the article, but your uses of my charges against Coolcat to judge my further claim of vandalism against the new member.
Again, it seem that you are missing the entire point. Let me clarify yet again for you.
Armenian genocide REPLACED WITH Armenian relocation. He replaced what the name of the article is about with such a term. This IS vandalism.
“Following Ottoman Empire's entry in WWI, the Imperial Russia has invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and Muslim communities were interleaved.” This is recorded inaccurate information, soon during the War the Ottoman Empire tried to invade and was defeated in December 1914-January 1915. Not only this information is POV, but it is even presented no0t as a position, but as a historical truth.
“Taking advantage of common religion and recent discomfort of the Armenian community in Ottoman Empire, Russia was promoting Armenian nationalism and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. Late in 1914, Russian supported and tranied Armenian militia started treachery and attacking on muslim villages.” There was no such thing as an Armenian attack of Muslim villages in 1914. Not only does he do it in a POV way, but he does present it as fact.
He added “Eastern front” for the Armenian population movement, as to claim that only these Armenians were moved, when this claim is even not supported by Turkish materials. Not only does he do it in a POV way, but present it as fact.
“There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including Taner Akçam and Halil Berktay. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists, these scholars freely express and publish their opinions in Turkey.” This was an edit in reference to the Turkish new penal code, that makes it possible to condemn someone to 10 years of prison, who support the theses of genocide. While I refer to that, Mr. New aliases delete it and makes a POV presented as fact.
“However, the Armenian propagandists falsely claim that confirming the so-called genocide is a crime subject to imprisonment in Turkey. Orhan Pamuk, a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the press that he believes that a million Armenians were killed in Turkey.” Not only does he ad “so-called” before the word genocide, but he even makes statement to “Armenian propagandist” which is simply untrue and offensing.
He replaces the “Turkish” government, for “Ottoman” government, when the treatment is about the current theses of the Turkish government.
He adds Torques website and claim it to be a site from “A site by some Turkish and American scholars.” When I have in countless occasions justified the deleting of that site. And he add another site, which present the same materials as another link that is already there.
He adds: “ 1975: ASALA, a terrorist group that claimed recognition of genocide by Turkish government, was founded. Backed by some western countries, the group has killed several civilians and Turkish diplomats in various bombings and assasinations until the early 80's.” The way it is worded make it seem, rightly as something that is unrelated with the article.
“ March 1, 2005: Two Armenian historians withdrew from the second Vienna Armenian-Turkish Platform meeting to be held in May, which was arranged for document exchange between Turkish and Armenian historians.” This information has been known to be a complete fabrication, the historians that have allegedly redrawn, have testified, that they have never engaged in those meetings in the first place, and that there was no first meeting as claimed. Halacoglu lied about Akcam refusing, and I was there during a Symposium, when Akcam said exactly what happened and what was his real answer.
“ March, 2005: Poltical parties in Turkey came togerther made a declaration to invite Armenia to bring together a committee of historians from both sides to clarify the historical accounts in cooperation. The Armenian foreign minister rejected the invitation immediately, stating that "the genocide is a matter of politics, not history".” This information is not accurate, the Armenian foreign minister has never made such remarks, this add-on, actually has no place here.
As one can realize, my claims of vandalism against this member, that BTW modified it the way Coolcat wanted it, is supported, while I have reported this to you, you have positioned in favor of Coolcat and even going as far as accusing me.
Perhaps, shall I go before the dates which you report and start showing the other attempts of coolcat? Fadix 19:25, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I hope this is okay. I added some section headers to try and organize things a bit. If they get in the way please remove them.
On the camps section, you say " those cuts were done to add more materials, he has merged it and packed them." But in the camps section all he did was correct some spelling and grammar! He fixed wikilinks so they worked. He made sentences of indifferent English into good English.
You have a point on the "jurisprudence" section. Having seen incomprehensible, unsupported charges of vandalism from you I *am* predisposed to ignore your claims of vandalism without some pretty good evidence.
We've been through the Cezveci edits and I think you're right, it's not a good version. But I didn't protect the article because I thought you were destroying good edits, but I knew that you already had gotten into that bad habit and that you appeared to be reckless about doing so.
I don't see much point in discussing Coolcat's alleged wrongdoings since you still seem to think that you did nothing wrong on your revert of 26th March.
Now I think we're pretty close to having a good consensus that Coolcat won't be able to make out that there's a debate about whether mass murder occurred. A number of people have weighed in and Coolcat hasn't really rebutted them. I've had to remove a *lot* of nonsense concerned with attacking Coolcat in order to get down to that point. Please try to bring the discussion to a reasonable conclusion and suggest a form of words such as "all/the vast majority of scholars are agreed that hundreds of thousands, probably around a million, Armenians were killed as a result of these relocations and there is no room for doubt that these deaths were foreseeable and preventable, and therefore deliberate." All Coolcat can then do, I guess, is a bit of handwaving, and he'll be unlikely to find many supporters unless he does come up with new, verifiable facts that neither you nor I know about yet. At that point you'll basically have a consensus that for a form of the article that cannot leave the reader in any doubt. At which point, the purpose of the protection having been served, the article will be made editable again. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)