Hi, Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for beefing up FROG, cheers. — Matt Crypto 12:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Quick note to let you know that some of your editing this month was mentioned in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cryptography/March_2005. Thanks! — Matt Crypto 16:50, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to be sure that you noted my explanation of the diff that you cited. As it stands, I still believe that my version is more neutral, but I would like to hear from you before I change it. On a totally unrelated point, you may want to either replace your email on you userpage with a gif, or at least substitute the @ with an _at_ and the . with a _dot_, or something like that, in order to prevent a spider from picking it up. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 03:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(With apologies to The Browning Version)... you wrote:
To quote Bob Dylan in Highway 61 Revisited: "Why yes! I think it can be very easily done!" In fact I already did it, with much expansion: Israel-Lebanon conflict, and it is linked to many times in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict acticle -- Kendrick7 04:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dianelos, you have brought very reasonable arguments and valuable contributions to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, and I see that you are at it right now. I am calling for your help. This user MPerel [1] has sprung out of nowhere and obviously tries to push his and Tewfik's POV by means of indiscriminate reversing. There is a long discussion on the talk page which he obviously neither read nor took part in, and he reverted indiscriminately in the past (which was then undone by Kendrick7). Since I would violate WP:3RR, could you prevent him from doing more damage, restore the previous version and reinsert your latest changes? Here is the relevant diff: [2] Thank you very much! Kosmopolis 12:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
If you are going to say what Israel is doing wrong, you should include what the Palestinians are doing wrong as well. Here is a link to a good article on it http://www.jcpa.org/christian-persecution.htm. This is only what they are doing to the Christians. Terrorism is against human rights principles too. -- יהושועEric 07:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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Hey, I saw this site that you talked about in the discussion of the Military History Wikiproject. I just wanted to caution you that the list is very unsound and precarious. It is normally very dangerous to go on "top ten list" hunts like that because there are a number of complex factors that are often missed. I personally disagree with that person's analysis and rankings (France and Germany are where? What is North Korea doing there?), but that's beside the point. The most important thing to remember is that this kind of information is most definitely not encyclopedic. To consider it such is also a little bit dangerous. It is heavily riddled with POV and personal impressions to be fair game for Wikipedia. UberCryxic 02:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Danielos,
I just wanted to saw thank you for your hard work and cool head in the discussion on the Talk:Israel page. I noticed how much research you put into the different issues under discussion and have to say that your commitment to NPOV under the difficult circumstances there, is really admirable. As such, I would to recognize your efforts.
![]() |
The Barnstar of Diligence | |
For patiently perservering in the pursuit of NPOV under difficult circumstances and defusing tensions at the same time |
Tiamut 17:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw, may I ask why are you so interested in the Arab Israeli conflict ? Amoruso 06:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
A one nation two states solution. One federated country from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan river, with two states, Israel and Palestine, as defined by the green line. All Jews (by religion or ethnicity) would automatically be Israeli citizens, all Muslims/Arabs would automatically be Palestinian citizens, and the few people belonging to the small minorities would have to choose between the two. One constitution approved by a majority referendum of Israelis and of Palestinians, and which cannot be changed except by the same process. Every citizen would be free to live anywhere they wished within the Federation, but under the laws of the state they live (the laws of course would be non-discriminatory and would have to respect the constitution). Israelis, wherever they live, would vote for Israel’s government, and ditto for Palestinians (so there is no question of the state of Israel ever losing its Jewish government or of the Palestinians not being free to manage their own state). The central federal bureaucracy (a la EU) would get part of the taxes and would invest them in economic convergence and other federal objectives. National defense would stay in Israel’s hands until such time as Israel unilaterally decides to share that responsibility with the Palestinians (until then Palestinians won’t have to pay taxes for defense). Terrorism? Each person killed in a terrorist attack would cost the state (indirectly) responsible a huge fine, say 10 million dollars (the point being to make it extremely advantageous for each state to make certain that its citizens do not resort to terrorism). The Israeli settlers? They stay where they are but somebody pays the Palestinian state the fair market price of the land they use. The Right of Return? Ditto – somebody pays the Palestinians fair market prices for their expropriated properties. Who pays? Oh, I am sure the international community would be happy to contribute most if not all of it. The name of the Federation? Both “Israeli Federation” and “Palestinian Federation” would be equally valid official names. The two states would have a seat at the UN, just like European states. The capital city? Jerusalem (united, both west and east) for the two state and the federal governments (actually it would be really nice if some time down the road the Israeli and Palestinian state ministries of education would share the same building). I am sure there are other questions to be answered (the name of the currency and how to manage fiscal policy, who writes the constitution and overlooks the whole initial process, what to do with the Golan Heights and in general how to manage the Federation’s foreign policy, how to organize some kind of Federal Supreme Court to check that the constitution is being respected, the state citizenship of the offspring of mixed marriages, and others) but I am sure they can be answered. Maybe the EU can help; after all the EU is a living example of previously bitter enemies now living in really durable peace and making business together.
Any comments? It really looks like workable to me. As far as I can see it's a balanced solution and everybody wins. Palestinians get sovereignty over every inch of Gaza and the West Bank. Jews can settle everywhere in Eretz Israel. The map shows a country with beautiful borders and two states in it in different colors (just like the US is presented in maps). The Palestinian society will get a huge economic boost, and the Israeli society will reap a huge peace dividend. Dianelos 09:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Thinking about it, I'm a bit confused on what the solution gives differently from simple seperate peace... is it the complete withdrawl to the Green line ? meaning the issue of settlements is solved in your opinion per this ? You also said the issue of the fine on terror, but is that workable? anyone who makes a terrorist act immedially phucks up the government ? Seems a bit unlawful and will open manipulation - what constitutes as terrorist attack etc. Also, what if those people simply don't care... Hamas certainly didn't seem to care about losing financial support from EU and US after the elections for not recognising Israel. it's true that it's a better solution for how the borders will look on maps, you won't find me disagreeing there for sure ! Amoruso 10:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The one bi-national country has been proposed by the left in Israel, usually it's dismissed but... the idea of the federation like you said has been officially proposed by the left... extreme left usually, here for example : [3] it's a bit differnet than yours but has a similar general idea. In Israel, such a plan is called "MEDINA DU LEUMIT" although it's confusing and I too thought it meant ONE STATE WITH ONE PARLIAMENT ETC... which is also a proposal (bad one)... the federal country is a better proposal no doubt.
Right wing in israel (or extreme right) often proposed same solution but for JORDAN AND PALESTINE as a federation - what do you think about that, just curiously ? Amoruso 11:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't read the page you referenced above because I don't know Hebrew. Let me know if I misunderstood something or left something unanswered. Dianelos 15:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso 19:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
That "English" link points to the site's main page in English. I searched a little but could not find the proposal you refer too.
In answer to your observations:
In response to Amoruso:
You say that the this proposal is a beautiful utopia. I like the "beautiful" part; after all part of Middle Eastern culture is the appreciation of beauty. Beauty reflects balance and balance reflects justice. Did you know that the Qur'an says that "God is beauty"?
But I don't like the "utopia" part. I am an engineer and care about things working well. So let me defend my opinion that such a solution will work.
1. Peoples' aspirations.
As far as I can see the Jewish aspiration in rough priority order are:
I think it's clear that the Federation proposed fulfills both peoples' fundamental aspirations. Some Jews would rather have all Arabs disappear to the east of the Jordan river, and some Palestinians would rather have the state of Israel itself disappear, but neither pipe dream is going to happen and only the completely unrealistic people of both sides can believe otherwise. At least the vast majority of both peoples' will see their fundamental aspirations satisfied, and this fact is of fundamental importance for this proposal’s chances of success.
2. How stable and practical the proposed solution is:
In short, both peoples win and therefore as far as it is practically possible this proposal can work.
3. The worst case scenarios
What’s the worse that can happen from Israel’s point of view? That Palestinians take advantage of their freedoms and multiply the terrorist attacks against Israelis. In that case Israeli army simply rolls back and brings the situation to the current status quo. With the difference that the international community’s opinion would now be much more positive towards Israel. So Israel has a built-in security valve.
What’s the worse that can happen from the Palestinians’ point of view? That Israel, after signing all the papers, would in praxis derail the process by finding ways to deny Palestinian rights some way or other. In this case though Palestinians will get a huge boost in the public opinion of the international community. Israel cannot survive without the goodwill of the international community, and Palestinians will have to trust that the international community can and will pressure Israel into fulfilling its obligations.
I personally judge both scenarios above to be very unlikely. The process will take place under the close supervision of the international community (they are paying most of the bills anyway), and both peoples will have much to win if the plan works and much to lose if the plan fails.
4. What's the alternative?
From Israel's point of view an alternative would be for Israel to unilaterally impose the kind of two-state solution it sees fit: We take this piece out of the West Bank, wall you out, limit what your government can do, and so on. And why not? Israel has nothing to fear militarily from the Arabs, the US is a longtime and steadfast supporter, and the EU is toothless and spineless and carries a history that will keep them from doing something that actually hurts us. With time Palestinians and Arabs in general will get used to the situation, the international community will get bored discussing the injustice done to the Palestinians, and we shall be able to keep terrorism in check to some level we can live with. As for our Arabs one way or the other we will see that their number does not grow beyond its current level; we can live with them too. - Well, I see so many risky assumptions here especially long-term that I don't know where to begin. But even if that alternative would work long term I fail to see where it does serve Israel's interests better.
As for the Arabs they certainly cannot unilaterally impose a solution on Israel, at least not in the foreseeable future. So only alternatives that Israel may accept are realistic, and the one it seems to me that comes closer is the recent 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. But the proposal for a Federation both serves Palestinians better and is more likely to be accepted by Israel I think. Dianelos 11:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
You're wrong (IMO). This is not the aspiration of the Palestinian people. It's a make-up aspiration. The aspiration today is what Hamas represents and it has little to do with a Palestinian political entity. It has more to do with the need to have Islamic rule over as much territory and people as possible. Israel is in the HEART of the islamic world and just like Ahmadinijad doesn't want Israel here, HAMAS doesn't want Israel here. They don't want a "Zionist entity" in the middle of the Islamic world. If there's something that connects Shia hizballah and Sunni hamas is this hatred, and they won't stop. It's really what I think leaves the gap between what you think is possible and what I see. You don't see the will of Hamas and Hizballah , which have immense support of millions, to blank out Israel from the maps entirely. The idea of any partition or any sharing of the land in one political form or another is laughable to them, it's a western concept with they loathe, which they will show nothing but contempt to. There is a real clash of civilizations here, not like one in the EU but one which is rooted in deep beliefs of jihad and what's right, and how men and women should behave in the world. This whole idea of finding a solution to something like this, or equating people's miseries and misfortunes, and thinking that both sides have simply some extremists and that we all are human beings that want a place under the sun... and we all live under the same moon and walk under the same stars, and why can't we just live happily together ?? well we can't it will never ever work and the only solution must be based on heavy security and power at the end of the day - a federation won't be able to do that unless will be signed by a minority palestinian ruler which won't be democratic like you wished. As to the photo, this wasn't simply a horror photo. Yes, there are horror photos of children being shelled, as were in WW2 German childern dying in horror and Nazi commiting horrors, but there was a difference and a difference here. I'm not simply talking about the horror of war etc, I'm talking about the mentality which brings persons to spoon someone's brains out, you understand the difference ? It's the mentality which trampedes over burning american and Israeli flags with swastikas while firing multiple shots into the air and yelling "itbach al yahud". It's not something you'll see in Israel or anywhere in the Western world. And that my friend can't be changed. Amoruso 19:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Re: your desire to remove the UN, EU, G8 + al Jazeera sourcing, unfortunately I was correct on this matter. See the latest diff. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You might be interested in this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Worldwide perception of Osama bin Laden
You asked -> Israelis do not live in peace and security 60 years after the creation of Israel. Why is that?
And the reason is simple - the first Zionists arrived in Palestine 125 years ago, with their guns, determined to seize the land of others and ethnically cleanse the rightful owners.<reference>
Why didn't Israelis get away with it in 1948, when they might have done? Answer - because they continued to aggressively pursue the expansion that the Zionists always dreamed of.<reference>
Top Zionists are no longer say they want "from the Nile to the Euphrates"<reference> - but that appears to be what they want, and there's going to be mass suffering in the whole region until they're stopped and there's regime change.
But the good news is that time is running out for Israel, the writing is on the wall.<reference> The apartheid and ethnic cleansing regime was built with guns and the fear of guns, best guess at the moment is that rockets and the fear of rockets will see it crumble.
If you don't believe me, check out how many children of prominent Israelis are choosing to leave. Both of Olmert's sons, for starters. Descendants of many of the early Zionists, including the families of former Israeli prime ministers David Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin, and Yitzhak Rabin. <reference> Israel is not going to survive this loss of confidence.
PalestineRemembered 19:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello and thanks for the nice summary of Plantinga's review you added to The God Delusion. -- Merzul 00:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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You mentioned that you felt there should be a methodological naturalism article independent of the Philosophical Naturalism article. I tend to agree, so I've started a draft of the page. /info/en/?search=User:Philocentric/methodological_naturalism Feel free to edit it as you'd like. I'll wait a few weeks before submitting it. Philocentric ( talk) 09:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
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Hi, Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for beefing up FROG, cheers. — Matt Crypto 12:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Quick note to let you know that some of your editing this month was mentioned in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cryptography/March_2005. Thanks! — Matt Crypto 16:50, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to be sure that you noted my explanation of the diff that you cited. As it stands, I still believe that my version is more neutral, but I would like to hear from you before I change it. On a totally unrelated point, you may want to either replace your email on you userpage with a gif, or at least substitute the @ with an _at_ and the . with a _dot_, or something like that, in order to prevent a spider from picking it up. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 03:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
(With apologies to The Browning Version)... you wrote:
To quote Bob Dylan in Highway 61 Revisited: "Why yes! I think it can be very easily done!" In fact I already did it, with much expansion: Israel-Lebanon conflict, and it is linked to many times in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict acticle -- Kendrick7 04:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dianelos, you have brought very reasonable arguments and valuable contributions to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, and I see that you are at it right now. I am calling for your help. This user MPerel [1] has sprung out of nowhere and obviously tries to push his and Tewfik's POV by means of indiscriminate reversing. There is a long discussion on the talk page which he obviously neither read nor took part in, and he reverted indiscriminately in the past (which was then undone by Kendrick7). Since I would violate WP:3RR, could you prevent him from doing more damage, restore the previous version and reinsert your latest changes? Here is the relevant diff: [2] Thank you very much! Kosmopolis 12:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
If you are going to say what Israel is doing wrong, you should include what the Palestinians are doing wrong as well. Here is a link to a good article on it http://www.jcpa.org/christian-persecution.htm. This is only what they are doing to the Christians. Terrorism is against human rights principles too. -- יהושועEric 07:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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Hey, I saw this site that you talked about in the discussion of the Military History Wikiproject. I just wanted to caution you that the list is very unsound and precarious. It is normally very dangerous to go on "top ten list" hunts like that because there are a number of complex factors that are often missed. I personally disagree with that person's analysis and rankings (France and Germany are where? What is North Korea doing there?), but that's beside the point. The most important thing to remember is that this kind of information is most definitely not encyclopedic. To consider it such is also a little bit dangerous. It is heavily riddled with POV and personal impressions to be fair game for Wikipedia. UberCryxic 02:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Danielos,
I just wanted to saw thank you for your hard work and cool head in the discussion on the Talk:Israel page. I noticed how much research you put into the different issues under discussion and have to say that your commitment to NPOV under the difficult circumstances there, is really admirable. As such, I would to recognize your efforts.
![]() |
The Barnstar of Diligence | |
For patiently perservering in the pursuit of NPOV under difficult circumstances and defusing tensions at the same time |
Tiamut 17:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw, may I ask why are you so interested in the Arab Israeli conflict ? Amoruso 06:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
A one nation two states solution. One federated country from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan river, with two states, Israel and Palestine, as defined by the green line. All Jews (by religion or ethnicity) would automatically be Israeli citizens, all Muslims/Arabs would automatically be Palestinian citizens, and the few people belonging to the small minorities would have to choose between the two. One constitution approved by a majority referendum of Israelis and of Palestinians, and which cannot be changed except by the same process. Every citizen would be free to live anywhere they wished within the Federation, but under the laws of the state they live (the laws of course would be non-discriminatory and would have to respect the constitution). Israelis, wherever they live, would vote for Israel’s government, and ditto for Palestinians (so there is no question of the state of Israel ever losing its Jewish government or of the Palestinians not being free to manage their own state). The central federal bureaucracy (a la EU) would get part of the taxes and would invest them in economic convergence and other federal objectives. National defense would stay in Israel’s hands until such time as Israel unilaterally decides to share that responsibility with the Palestinians (until then Palestinians won’t have to pay taxes for defense). Terrorism? Each person killed in a terrorist attack would cost the state (indirectly) responsible a huge fine, say 10 million dollars (the point being to make it extremely advantageous for each state to make certain that its citizens do not resort to terrorism). The Israeli settlers? They stay where they are but somebody pays the Palestinian state the fair market price of the land they use. The Right of Return? Ditto – somebody pays the Palestinians fair market prices for their expropriated properties. Who pays? Oh, I am sure the international community would be happy to contribute most if not all of it. The name of the Federation? Both “Israeli Federation” and “Palestinian Federation” would be equally valid official names. The two states would have a seat at the UN, just like European states. The capital city? Jerusalem (united, both west and east) for the two state and the federal governments (actually it would be really nice if some time down the road the Israeli and Palestinian state ministries of education would share the same building). I am sure there are other questions to be answered (the name of the currency and how to manage fiscal policy, who writes the constitution and overlooks the whole initial process, what to do with the Golan Heights and in general how to manage the Federation’s foreign policy, how to organize some kind of Federal Supreme Court to check that the constitution is being respected, the state citizenship of the offspring of mixed marriages, and others) but I am sure they can be answered. Maybe the EU can help; after all the EU is a living example of previously bitter enemies now living in really durable peace and making business together.
Any comments? It really looks like workable to me. As far as I can see it's a balanced solution and everybody wins. Palestinians get sovereignty over every inch of Gaza and the West Bank. Jews can settle everywhere in Eretz Israel. The map shows a country with beautiful borders and two states in it in different colors (just like the US is presented in maps). The Palestinian society will get a huge economic boost, and the Israeli society will reap a huge peace dividend. Dianelos 09:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Thinking about it, I'm a bit confused on what the solution gives differently from simple seperate peace... is it the complete withdrawl to the Green line ? meaning the issue of settlements is solved in your opinion per this ? You also said the issue of the fine on terror, but is that workable? anyone who makes a terrorist act immedially phucks up the government ? Seems a bit unlawful and will open manipulation - what constitutes as terrorist attack etc. Also, what if those people simply don't care... Hamas certainly didn't seem to care about losing financial support from EU and US after the elections for not recognising Israel. it's true that it's a better solution for how the borders will look on maps, you won't find me disagreeing there for sure ! Amoruso 10:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The one bi-national country has been proposed by the left in Israel, usually it's dismissed but... the idea of the federation like you said has been officially proposed by the left... extreme left usually, here for example : [3] it's a bit differnet than yours but has a similar general idea. In Israel, such a plan is called "MEDINA DU LEUMIT" although it's confusing and I too thought it meant ONE STATE WITH ONE PARLIAMENT ETC... which is also a proposal (bad one)... the federal country is a better proposal no doubt.
Right wing in israel (or extreme right) often proposed same solution but for JORDAN AND PALESTINE as a federation - what do you think about that, just curiously ? Amoruso 11:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't read the page you referenced above because I don't know Hebrew. Let me know if I misunderstood something or left something unanswered. Dianelos 15:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso 19:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
That "English" link points to the site's main page in English. I searched a little but could not find the proposal you refer too.
In answer to your observations:
In response to Amoruso:
You say that the this proposal is a beautiful utopia. I like the "beautiful" part; after all part of Middle Eastern culture is the appreciation of beauty. Beauty reflects balance and balance reflects justice. Did you know that the Qur'an says that "God is beauty"?
But I don't like the "utopia" part. I am an engineer and care about things working well. So let me defend my opinion that such a solution will work.
1. Peoples' aspirations.
As far as I can see the Jewish aspiration in rough priority order are:
I think it's clear that the Federation proposed fulfills both peoples' fundamental aspirations. Some Jews would rather have all Arabs disappear to the east of the Jordan river, and some Palestinians would rather have the state of Israel itself disappear, but neither pipe dream is going to happen and only the completely unrealistic people of both sides can believe otherwise. At least the vast majority of both peoples' will see their fundamental aspirations satisfied, and this fact is of fundamental importance for this proposal’s chances of success.
2. How stable and practical the proposed solution is:
In short, both peoples win and therefore as far as it is practically possible this proposal can work.
3. The worst case scenarios
What’s the worse that can happen from Israel’s point of view? That Palestinians take advantage of their freedoms and multiply the terrorist attacks against Israelis. In that case Israeli army simply rolls back and brings the situation to the current status quo. With the difference that the international community’s opinion would now be much more positive towards Israel. So Israel has a built-in security valve.
What’s the worse that can happen from the Palestinians’ point of view? That Israel, after signing all the papers, would in praxis derail the process by finding ways to deny Palestinian rights some way or other. In this case though Palestinians will get a huge boost in the public opinion of the international community. Israel cannot survive without the goodwill of the international community, and Palestinians will have to trust that the international community can and will pressure Israel into fulfilling its obligations.
I personally judge both scenarios above to be very unlikely. The process will take place under the close supervision of the international community (they are paying most of the bills anyway), and both peoples will have much to win if the plan works and much to lose if the plan fails.
4. What's the alternative?
From Israel's point of view an alternative would be for Israel to unilaterally impose the kind of two-state solution it sees fit: We take this piece out of the West Bank, wall you out, limit what your government can do, and so on. And why not? Israel has nothing to fear militarily from the Arabs, the US is a longtime and steadfast supporter, and the EU is toothless and spineless and carries a history that will keep them from doing something that actually hurts us. With time Palestinians and Arabs in general will get used to the situation, the international community will get bored discussing the injustice done to the Palestinians, and we shall be able to keep terrorism in check to some level we can live with. As for our Arabs one way or the other we will see that their number does not grow beyond its current level; we can live with them too. - Well, I see so many risky assumptions here especially long-term that I don't know where to begin. But even if that alternative would work long term I fail to see where it does serve Israel's interests better.
As for the Arabs they certainly cannot unilaterally impose a solution on Israel, at least not in the foreseeable future. So only alternatives that Israel may accept are realistic, and the one it seems to me that comes closer is the recent 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. But the proposal for a Federation both serves Palestinians better and is more likely to be accepted by Israel I think. Dianelos 11:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
You're wrong (IMO). This is not the aspiration of the Palestinian people. It's a make-up aspiration. The aspiration today is what Hamas represents and it has little to do with a Palestinian political entity. It has more to do with the need to have Islamic rule over as much territory and people as possible. Israel is in the HEART of the islamic world and just like Ahmadinijad doesn't want Israel here, HAMAS doesn't want Israel here. They don't want a "Zionist entity" in the middle of the Islamic world. If there's something that connects Shia hizballah and Sunni hamas is this hatred, and they won't stop. It's really what I think leaves the gap between what you think is possible and what I see. You don't see the will of Hamas and Hizballah , which have immense support of millions, to blank out Israel from the maps entirely. The idea of any partition or any sharing of the land in one political form or another is laughable to them, it's a western concept with they loathe, which they will show nothing but contempt to. There is a real clash of civilizations here, not like one in the EU but one which is rooted in deep beliefs of jihad and what's right, and how men and women should behave in the world. This whole idea of finding a solution to something like this, or equating people's miseries and misfortunes, and thinking that both sides have simply some extremists and that we all are human beings that want a place under the sun... and we all live under the same moon and walk under the same stars, and why can't we just live happily together ?? well we can't it will never ever work and the only solution must be based on heavy security and power at the end of the day - a federation won't be able to do that unless will be signed by a minority palestinian ruler which won't be democratic like you wished. As to the photo, this wasn't simply a horror photo. Yes, there are horror photos of children being shelled, as were in WW2 German childern dying in horror and Nazi commiting horrors, but there was a difference and a difference here. I'm not simply talking about the horror of war etc, I'm talking about the mentality which brings persons to spoon someone's brains out, you understand the difference ? It's the mentality which trampedes over burning american and Israeli flags with swastikas while firing multiple shots into the air and yelling "itbach al yahud". It's not something you'll see in Israel or anywhere in the Western world. And that my friend can't be changed. Amoruso 19:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Re: your desire to remove the UN, EU, G8 + al Jazeera sourcing, unfortunately I was correct on this matter. See the latest diff. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You might be interested in this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Worldwide perception of Osama bin Laden
You asked -> Israelis do not live in peace and security 60 years after the creation of Israel. Why is that?
And the reason is simple - the first Zionists arrived in Palestine 125 years ago, with their guns, determined to seize the land of others and ethnically cleanse the rightful owners.<reference>
Why didn't Israelis get away with it in 1948, when they might have done? Answer - because they continued to aggressively pursue the expansion that the Zionists always dreamed of.<reference>
Top Zionists are no longer say they want "from the Nile to the Euphrates"<reference> - but that appears to be what they want, and there's going to be mass suffering in the whole region until they're stopped and there's regime change.
But the good news is that time is running out for Israel, the writing is on the wall.<reference> The apartheid and ethnic cleansing regime was built with guns and the fear of guns, best guess at the moment is that rockets and the fear of rockets will see it crumble.
If you don't believe me, check out how many children of prominent Israelis are choosing to leave. Both of Olmert's sons, for starters. Descendants of many of the early Zionists, including the families of former Israeli prime ministers David Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin, and Yitzhak Rabin. <reference> Israel is not going to survive this loss of confidence.
PalestineRemembered 19:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello and thanks for the nice summary of Plantinga's review you added to The God Delusion. -- Merzul 00:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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