(From User talk:Moonriddengirl, 19:50 2 Dec 2007. The basic criterion in determining whether a text page is a candidate for CSD#G12 is that (a)it is copied from a website or other source that does not seem to be a copy of Wikipedia; (b) there is no non-infringing material on the page or in the history worthy saving; (c) the material was introduced all at once by one person, and (d) there is no credible assertion of public domain, fair use or free license. If it meets all of those criteria, then it's fair game for speedy. If it meets only some, it may require different handling. In those cases, it is certainly okay not to mark them for speedy, but to use {{copyvio|url=x}} (identifying the source). If you only suspect that an article is a copyright violation, it is handled differently, with the template {{cv-unsure}} being placed on the talk page of the article (not on the article itself). To do that, you place {{cv-unsure|~~~|2=http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl}} on the talk page, replacing http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl with the url of the page you suspect is a copyvio. (That permanently links the version you believe is a copyvio in the template, in case the article is later edited.)
Thanks for your kind words, and for trying to help out on my Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks a lot dude! I've been trying to figure out how to make my signature work for 4 days! -- 224jeff6 Talk 23:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC) (It works yay!)
Thanks for the kind note Coppertwig. I greatly appreciate your balanced approach to editing, and look to you as a model for expressing ideas succinctly and without fanning flames.
I enjoyed reading your latest comments on Talk:Reproductive_rights. It's not just that we seem to agree on an edit, but you raised points that did not occur to me regarding much bolder questions than simply, "is this Wikipedia policy." You seemed to base much of your discussion on an idea that Wikipedia should not tell people what to think. I feel that way. I believe that idea is a driving force behind many of my issues with the Circumcision article, especially the current problem that the article excludes discussion of female circumcision, contrary to the definition of the word. By accepting the view, implied in the organization of that page, that circumcision means something done to the penis, full stop, we are making Wikipedia claim that this is the view we should have. Wikipedia is in effect saying, "References to female circumcision are errant, biased, or those of a tiny minority." That assertion is verifiably untrue. The organization of the article, and its lead paragraph, expresses a view not demonstrated to be held by an overwhelming majority (required by WP:NPOV), rather than presenting and attributing that notable view (that may be called for). The situation parallels, in my opinion, the phrase in Reproductive rights that said "reproductive rights are a subset of human rights," which we both seem to agree is unacceptable without qualifiers. The articles can't begin with a POV and then claim to have any value.
Forgive what may sound like a rant, but really the point is to ask you your opinion on this. I don't believe you commented in detail in that particular discussion. Anyway, regardless of whether you choose to discuss this with me, I generally appreciate your contributions and look forward to working with you further to improve WP. Blackworm ( talk) 07:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
(Outdenting.) I agree with most of what you say. I'm not suggesting that the organization of Wikipedia should follow a dictionary without exception. I think that the source of our disagreement stems from our apparently different opinion of whether an article containing information on both male and female circumcision would or would not be "a collection of facts which intuitively appear to be so closely related to each other that they can be considered to be part of the same topic." I'm using dictionaries as sources for evidence that many people share my view on this, possibly even a majority. The dictionaries strongly suggest that historically, indeed that has been the case (the "many," not necessarily the "majority").
We appear to be editing simultaneously, so I should note that this comment, and your latest, above, were written after my comment after the second "arbitrary section break" (I loved that!) below. Blackworm ( talk) 19:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm inundating your talk page with messages, but I truly am moved by the directions this discussion has taken us. I was wondering if you'd agree that it seems like a fundamental difference in our approach is the weighing of a commonly used meaning of a word versus the strictest/most liberal possible reasonable meaning(s) of that word. I say "strictest/most liberal" even though it sounds contradictory, because what I'm talking about is either extreme, versus the current, apparent, socially acceptable, claimed-as-majority view, or "mainstream" view as some like to put it.
Here is a suggestion I would have a much harder time arguing against, if I were to take the steadfast view that all viewpoints need be represented. The word "pedophile." The word has clear, widespread connotations of sexual desire for children, and I'm prepared to assert that most if not all English speakers use the word specifically to mean this. But looking at the Greek root of the word, we find "pedo-" (child) and "phile," from "philos" (friend). One interpretation of this is simply "a friend of children," a phrase which has no English word associated with it. I am hard pressed to argue that the interpretation is entirely unreasonable; but I do believe it reasonable to exclude the viewpoint based on the prevalence of that usage. I would agree that it would be unreasonable to base the "pedophile" article on that meaning, and possibly would also be unreasonable to even mention it; it is used by a tiny minority in that way (if anyone). I don't believe the same is true of "circumcision" used to describe female circumcision, based not only on things like Google Scholar searches, but also on my experience simply talking to other people around me, and coming into contact with that usage routinely, from multiple sources, and from an early age.
Incidentally, I find it quite notable (Avi's word: curious) that the Latin root of "circumcision" got deleted from the article. (It is now in a restored state, and if I remember correctly, it seems to vacillate.) Rhetorically (or not, as you wish), would you say that its presence may reasonably appear to some to diminish the credibility of the (IMO, narrowed) definition treated in the article?
I posit that many people who wince when the phrase "female circumcision" is uttered or written probably didn't come into contact with that usage of "circumcision" until late adolescence or adulthood, when they first heard of the practice done to females. It's also likely their first reaction to the subject was extremely negative (another reason for wincing, or something seeming "wrong"). They may have learned that circumcision means something done to males, and only males. As I'm fond of saying, non-neutral POV smells no matter where it comes from, including the heart, and gut. (I'm not implying you are part of this group.)
That said, it's nearing the end of a long year, and in this time of retrospect I give myself a grade of "D minus" (Charles M. Schulz, RIP) for my "work" in Wikipedia. I am the first to admit that in order for this system to work at its best, I need to make every effort to perish all thoughts that other editors are stubborn or unreasonable merely because they remain unconvinced, or incorrigibly biased and therefore irrelevant merely because they appear to be arguing from a point of view. I have fallen short of these ideals, often, while improperly accusing others of falling short of them; others who, in a fair assessment, may not have fallen short of those ideals nearly as often. You have singlehandedly restored much of my faith in the amazing things that can be accomplished when editors discuss respectfully, boldly, cordially, precisely, openly, honestly, and leaving any agenda behind. Thank you for that. If I believed in barnstars, you'd get a big one from me.
I feel almost like it would be impolite not to address many of the interesting points you have raised. I'm guessing you may feel the same, but as you seem to suggest, we shouldn't worry. I will attempt to take a course of pondering, rereading, and replying at whatever pace I am comfortable with at the time (including snails, like, really slow snails), and invite you to do the same. :) Blackworm ( talk) 18:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps need to revert this edit which was apparently the one that messed up the ref list (july 20; Female genital cutting) -- Coppertwig ( talk) 01:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Source re breastfeeding, including plugged ducts: [1] Another bf ref: [2]
I just mean that editing one page too much, you might not be able to catch something on another page. That's all. Hiddenhearts Sign Here! My Talk 19:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Instinct also helps me go after speediable articles. I very often come across new articles which may have useful content, but that is covered within existing articles and redirecting just doesn't seem to be an option. I have found that only serious editors will confront me, and I heartily welcome that. I like to be told that I'm wrong! I also like the interaction. If you look at my contributions (specifically, the user talk pages wherein I posted a speedy notice similar), check out how many editors bothered to continue editing, or even take the time to respond to me. The reality I seem to encounter is, that many articles simply don't belong, and editors don't get the concenpt of an encyclopedia, or want to take the time. I guess this makes me more of a deletionist than an inclusionist, but don't try to fit me in a slot just yet! - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 15:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Note to self: proposed merge of Benignus of Armagh and Saint Benan on Dec. 25. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 01:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Note to self: Interesting comment re NOR. [3] Original research being allowed in some form). Driving down a highway. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 23:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your message and support. Don't forget to vote next time :) -- Magioladitis ( talk) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Coppertwig, here is a little note to say thank you for your kind support on my request for adminship which succeeded with a final result of (72/19/6).
Now that I am a sysop, do not hesitate to contact me with any queries you have. I would be glad to help you along with the other group of kind and helpful administrators.
Thank you again and I look forward to editing alongside you in the future. — E talk 12:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
And I don't mind it when you fix my links, I appreciate it. Thank you for your efforts to keep Blackworm and I focused on content through positive reinforcement. This has been a useful lesson. Although I disagree with you on your disputation of the facticity of reproductive rights as human rights, I think you'll find that I'm more than reasonable when it comes to the issue of abortion as a human right. Perhaps we could work together in developing a neutral section dealing with this sub-topic? This would justify mentioning abortion in the lead (as is, we have a lot of orphaned content in there) and would help determine what language would be appropriate.
Does this mean we're making forward movement on the lead? Because if so, I'm overjoyed. I would enjoy the opportunity to collaborate in a way that added constructive content to the article. Phyesalis ( talk) 16:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a mistake. Take a look at what links to Circumcision in the Bible, it's almost always discussion of the Bible, hence the obvious and well defined title. If you wish to create a new article called Circumcision in cultures and religions, you should do so, and that new article could reference Circumcision in the Bible. Circumcision in the Bible as an article is already big enough, no need to broaden its scope. Further discussion should probably be on the talk page. 64.149.83.66 ( talk) 05:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your note: the first time I saw it I forgot to make the move, and the next time I remembered it. Jayjg (talk) 04:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey Coppertwig! It's me, Pyth. How're you doing? Pythian Habenero ( talk) 16:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for being impressed, and I'm impressed, though not surprised, that you're impressed, because I think many people would fail to see some of the grasping-at-straws attempts at oxymora I included. Also: You're very welcome, and not a dork IMO, however many posts you forget to sign.
I see there's a discussion about deleting List of sites running the LiveJournal engine. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 18:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Coppertwig, I sincerely apologize if my comment (last in archive 2) about your relationship to Circumcision and RR implied, or caused to you to infer, that I was casting aspersions on your general credibility. From all that I can tell, you are a valuable member of the project. I have no knowledge of your work on Circumcision but your efforts to keep the talk page calm and to provide an alternate source and wording on the "analogous" issue at RR have certainly been contributions to be proud of. Also, the time and goodwill that you have put into our user talk page discussions, particularly your lovely comments on my talk page, deserve more credit. Thank you.
I declined your offer to coach me through the conflict with Blackworm for the fact that I would be uncomfortable being coached by someone with your opposing perspectives (inferred from our interactions), who also happened to have the history that you and Blackworm have, and happened to be currently editing the pages in question, purely for the possibility of a general conflict of interest, neither an implied, nor an established one. Again, I'm sorry if my comment caused you offense. Perhaps you would reconsider my offer to help me build a neutral section on other perspectives on Reproductive rights? Not that you've actually turned me down, but I don't remember your response and there's been little in the way of reliable development. I would love to be able to move this forward. Phyesalis ( talk) 17:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)There seems to be some misunderstanding. I haven't agreed to pass anything along to Blackworm. What I meant was that I'm offering to work with you, suggesting what words to use, and then you can send the resulting message to Blackworm yourself (or possibly get someone else to deliver it).
I don't remember being asked whether I recognize CEDAW, Beijing or Cairo to be extensions of the UN. The CEDAW page says "The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) is an international convention adopted in 1979 by the United Nations General Assembly." so that's very clear: CEDAW is part of the UN. I agree with you on that. Beijing and Cairo are cities, but I think you mean either the conferences, or declarations made at the conferences, mentioned here: (Advancing Reproductive Rights Beyond Cairo and Beijing): "...has gained momentum through recent United Nations (UN) conferences, particularly the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development, held in Cairo, and the 1995 Fourth World Conference no Women, held in Beijing." This quote calls them UN conferences, so I assume they're extensions of the UN. So we agree on that, too.
You say "the fact that various RR have been ratified by the UN". Repeating this again without providing any arguments or pointing to any specific passages in reliable sources does nothing to convince me of this. If you have convincing arguments (or any arguments) in favour of this statement, please tell me what they are. It seems to me that it may be possible to easily convince me of this by showing me the right quote. Note that I'm under the impression that the word "ratified" has a specific technical meaning in international affairs; but I don't think I've seen verification of a softer version of the statement either.
I'm not aware of any issues between you and me except some differences of opinion, plus vague allegations at WP:AN which you said you would overlook. Differences of opinion are normal and should not impede working together on finding a version of the article that satisfies both of us, or if that is not possible, then a compromise. We need to work at eliminating misunderstandings, such as the misunderstanding that you apparently thought I was refusing to recognize certain conferences as extensions of the UN. (Possibly I did at some time in the past -- I don't remember -- but you could have simply showed me those quotes I just looked up if you wanted to persuade me.)
If there's some reason you don't want to retype quotes as I've done, you can refer to specific passages like this: "The last sentence of the first paragraph on page 1 of Advancing Reproductive Rights ..." (with a link to the page, or mentioning that it's the first footnote at RR, or etc.)
Vague allegations cannot be responded to properly, and anyway you said you were going to overlook them. In future, please either provide specific details of any allegations, or don't mention them at all. I would consider it an act of good faith if you would either strike out the words "in a few instances" and "tendentious edits/arguments" in this post or else provide on my talk page details of when you allege that I didn't work towards solutions or did do "tendentious edits/arguments"; however, I don't require or necessarily expect that you will do one of these things this time around. In future, though, I do expect you to raise issues with me directly on my talk page before mentioning them at WP:AN, and I do also expect you to either provide details of allegations, or else not mention them at all. I consider that just common courtesy.
Disagreeing with me about some article content issues doesn't seem like a good reason to stop editing an article, and it certainly doesn't seem like a good reason for me to stop editing. However, I might do so as part of the mediation process. What about posting to the article talk pages? What about discussing the articles in userspace, or editing drafts of the articles in userspace?
You say "you are a partial reason why I am not editing those two pages during this dispute." This provides almost no information. It's another vague allegation. Please either provide details (i.e. what specifically about my behaviour is bothering you?) or else retract your allegation.
You say "you keep editing parts of articles that are disputed in a manner which advances your POV, despite the fact that I have stepped away in a GF attempt to reduce the tension and resolve the dispute." Actually, in the time after you asked me (today or yesterday) to step away from the articles, I have not edited the two articles in question at all. Before that, I understood that you were taking a break, but didn't see any need for anyone else to also take a break at the same time. Anyone can choose to take a break from editing an article for any of a variety of reasons. Normally, others continue editing. You're making it sound as if I did something wrong, when you hadn't even asked me to stop editing, and I would have been justified, I think, in refusing if you had asked. (One option you have in such situations is to request page protection.) Although I knew you were taking a break, I wasn't clear on exactly what the reasons for your break were: I still don't. Actually, I'm not even clear when you were or were not taking a break. It seems to me that we were having ongoing discussion between you and me at Talk:Reproductive rights recently, so that doesn't look like a break. I often wait 24 hours for a response before editing. Sometimes longer. Sometimes I edit without waiting; sometimes you also edit without waiting for a response. Please remember that if I edit in a way that displeases you, you can always invoke my "self-revert" userbox.
I'm sorry that after you inserted the word "various" in an attempt at compromise in response to my request, I didn't reply for a longish time. I had less online time than I expected for a few days, and my reply took a lot more thought than I expected; when I finally did reply it was rather long. Thank you for your patience in that situation. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 23:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the additional resources. I am familiar with them, but given the previous objections, I wasn't sure you'd have accepted them. I added the Beijing link (if I remember correctly) around the time I added the men's content. At the time, there wasn't any mention of Cairo or Beijing in the lead. Does this mean that you now agree that "Various reproductive rights have been established as human rights?" Because that would be great.
Taking a page from you on the ASB. Hope you don't mind. What bothered me about the edit (diff in previous post) was the apparent lack of good faith over some fairly basic facts. You did not read either of the articles in their entirety, and yet felt the need to surmise that the two fairly lengthy articles did not contain the information. To make that kind of edit summary, in conjunction with the cite tag seemed somewhat antagonistic considering that you were attempting to de-escalate a dispute that involved contentious editing of the same kind of behavior (although on a much larger scale). Perhaps a better way to help de-escalate would have been to discuss it on the talk, since all three of us were active in discussion. Seeing as how Blackworm's slapping cite tags on everything he disagreed with, despite the fact that it had citations was part of the issue to begin with, your continuation of the practice seemed intentionally antagonistic. Now from my perspective, it seems you have been content to allow Blackworm to act as a sort of stalking horse, allowing you to interject as the voice of reason, lending an air of legitimacy to an editor's tendentious methods while advancing the same POV.
I wrote that I was asking you to stop editing "RR and FGC". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Yes, I am asking you to stop editing Reproductive rights and Female genital cutting (main and talk) for the duration of the mediation. If you want to work on other mock-ups, I have no issue (why would I ask you to do that?). Do you find this request unreasonable? If so, would you mind explaining why?
Also, the issue of the material regarding men's health that you and BW have removed because you deem it sexist, would you mind pointing out the WP policy the covers sexist material? I am unaware of this policy, that cited material can be removed for perceived sexism. Also, could you explain how the material is sexist. I don't understand this at all. The source clearly states that men's sexual activity outside a committed relationship has general health repercussions due to the fact that the differences in reproductive systems make it much more likely that a man will transmit an STD to a woman than the other way around. I don't understand your opposition to this material. If I add that info in, it does not pass a commutation test - replacing men with women does not yield the same truth statement, it yields a false one.
In closing, I like your suggestion to work together on coming up with a mediation request. I think it will be helpful to have you as an involved party. Thank you. I'm going to post over at AN about our conversation and its outcome. Phyesalis ( talk) 19:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for defending the truth about my actions here ([ diff]). I'll note, though, that I never explicitly asked Phyesalis to tell me how many editors Phyesalis contacted; I did ask Phyesalis to clarify Phyesalis' response to my suggestion to read WP:CANVAS, which seemingly implied Phyesalis only contacted two editors. Maybe this is nit-picking, but I would see a direct asking of the question of how many editors were contacted as stronger evidence of an accusation of violating CANVAS -- so I carefully avoided that. Thanks again. Blackworm ( talk) 23:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Note: In case it's not clear, I am not calling for any amendments to your comments. Blackworm ( talk) 23:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll undelete them. Jayjg (talk) 03:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I've replied there. Regards, Rudget . 15:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I've invited you to WP:TEA. See January 2008. Thank you for your graceful acceptance of mediation. I'm sure your measured presence will have a calming effect on both of us. You have my esteem and appreciation. I'm sure your contributions over at the mediation request draft will be productive. Phyesalis ( talk) 04:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
You have e-mail, CT. -- Avi ( talk) 18:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I believe the protocol is to move your vote and discussion below to the Neutral section. -- Avi ( talk) 00:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for proposing to merge This Page instead of removing it. Also, i'm sure that this part ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Code_of_Claw&oldid=183102775) was not copyright, becuase this was not removed yet. I have put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Re:re: I have read your message. I have listened to your comments, I do not want to start and edit war; i just want to state that you put something twice. Nothing offensive meant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks. ∂☺1♂K∫ ₪&+(_)+5 ( talk) 03:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Coppertwig, that was very thoughtful of you. Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Answers at Talk:Safavid art, and at Discuter:Art safavide. Friendly yours. Pentocelo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.15.92.33 ( talk) 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
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Dear PalestineRemembered, re this discussion, where someone asked you to avoid using the word "immigrants" in this context and you indicated difficulty in finding acceptable words to use and you said "I will often refer to supporters of Israel as "the immigrants" ". Here I would like to try to help everyone compromise and get along with each other, so I'd like to try to help find a word or phrase people can agree on, although perhaps it's not likely I can come up with anything that hasn't already been suggested and rejected for one reason or another. I understand your frustration -- you've got to be able to use a word to be able to express what you want to say. Now, maybe I ought to know this already, but I'd appreciate it if you'd gently explain to me why you wouldn't use the term "Israelis" in that context. (As a reminder, there are now also the phrases suggested by Sm8900 (Steve): ("i would ask whether you could perhaps use a term such as "Israel supporters," "Israelis and their allies", or simply, "Members of Israeli society." it might even be fine to say "Israelis of a Zionist viewpoint," as using Zionist as an adjective is not really that bad.") -- Coppertwig ( talk) 14:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
It's just an idea I've been thinking about. Although I used the controversial template as an example, we should think about using the WikiProject tags instead. It would be easy to implement, but difficult to get admins and mediators to come on board because it would mean that they would actually have to do the work rather than camping on the noticeboard. But, I'm sure there are people who would watch the categories and help out, which is why I think it has a chance. — Viriditas | Talk 19:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into that. I've put up a much better page now. Hopefully it will be good enough to stick.
Thanks again Hortaculture ( talk) 23:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but do you make any sense but a psedo-scientific survey that just stated incorrectly some mathematical results to conclude that he, the creator, discovered a new string theory? -- Magioladitis ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
“ | Patent nonsense' and gibberish, an unsalvageably incoherent page with no meaningful content. This does not include: poor writing, partisan screeds, obscene remarks, vandalism, fictional material, material not in English, badly translated material, implausible theories, or hoaxes of any sort; some of these, however, may be deleted as vandalism in blatant cases. | ” |
Hi Coppertwig. I noticed you are the creator of the above article. Just to let you know I have nominated it for deletion. You can participate in the deletion discussion here. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
An editor has nominated Udo's Choice Food Pyramids, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also " What Wikipedia is not").
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FYI, I've sent you an email. JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
(From User talk:Moonriddengirl, 19:50 2 Dec 2007. The basic criterion in determining whether a text page is a candidate for CSD#G12 is that (a)it is copied from a website or other source that does not seem to be a copy of Wikipedia; (b) there is no non-infringing material on the page or in the history worthy saving; (c) the material was introduced all at once by one person, and (d) there is no credible assertion of public domain, fair use or free license. If it meets all of those criteria, then it's fair game for speedy. If it meets only some, it may require different handling. In those cases, it is certainly okay not to mark them for speedy, but to use {{copyvio|url=x}} (identifying the source). If you only suspect that an article is a copyright violation, it is handled differently, with the template {{cv-unsure}} being placed on the talk page of the article (not on the article itself). To do that, you place {{cv-unsure|~~~|2=http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl}} on the talk page, replacing http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl with the url of the page you suspect is a copyvio. (That permanently links the version you believe is a copyvio in the template, in case the article is later edited.)
Thanks for your kind words, and for trying to help out on my Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks a lot dude! I've been trying to figure out how to make my signature work for 4 days! -- 224jeff6 Talk 23:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC) (It works yay!)
Thanks for the kind note Coppertwig. I greatly appreciate your balanced approach to editing, and look to you as a model for expressing ideas succinctly and without fanning flames.
I enjoyed reading your latest comments on Talk:Reproductive_rights. It's not just that we seem to agree on an edit, but you raised points that did not occur to me regarding much bolder questions than simply, "is this Wikipedia policy." You seemed to base much of your discussion on an idea that Wikipedia should not tell people what to think. I feel that way. I believe that idea is a driving force behind many of my issues with the Circumcision article, especially the current problem that the article excludes discussion of female circumcision, contrary to the definition of the word. By accepting the view, implied in the organization of that page, that circumcision means something done to the penis, full stop, we are making Wikipedia claim that this is the view we should have. Wikipedia is in effect saying, "References to female circumcision are errant, biased, or those of a tiny minority." That assertion is verifiably untrue. The organization of the article, and its lead paragraph, expresses a view not demonstrated to be held by an overwhelming majority (required by WP:NPOV), rather than presenting and attributing that notable view (that may be called for). The situation parallels, in my opinion, the phrase in Reproductive rights that said "reproductive rights are a subset of human rights," which we both seem to agree is unacceptable without qualifiers. The articles can't begin with a POV and then claim to have any value.
Forgive what may sound like a rant, but really the point is to ask you your opinion on this. I don't believe you commented in detail in that particular discussion. Anyway, regardless of whether you choose to discuss this with me, I generally appreciate your contributions and look forward to working with you further to improve WP. Blackworm ( talk) 07:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
(Outdenting.) I agree with most of what you say. I'm not suggesting that the organization of Wikipedia should follow a dictionary without exception. I think that the source of our disagreement stems from our apparently different opinion of whether an article containing information on both male and female circumcision would or would not be "a collection of facts which intuitively appear to be so closely related to each other that they can be considered to be part of the same topic." I'm using dictionaries as sources for evidence that many people share my view on this, possibly even a majority. The dictionaries strongly suggest that historically, indeed that has been the case (the "many," not necessarily the "majority").
We appear to be editing simultaneously, so I should note that this comment, and your latest, above, were written after my comment after the second "arbitrary section break" (I loved that!) below. Blackworm ( talk) 19:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm inundating your talk page with messages, but I truly am moved by the directions this discussion has taken us. I was wondering if you'd agree that it seems like a fundamental difference in our approach is the weighing of a commonly used meaning of a word versus the strictest/most liberal possible reasonable meaning(s) of that word. I say "strictest/most liberal" even though it sounds contradictory, because what I'm talking about is either extreme, versus the current, apparent, socially acceptable, claimed-as-majority view, or "mainstream" view as some like to put it.
Here is a suggestion I would have a much harder time arguing against, if I were to take the steadfast view that all viewpoints need be represented. The word "pedophile." The word has clear, widespread connotations of sexual desire for children, and I'm prepared to assert that most if not all English speakers use the word specifically to mean this. But looking at the Greek root of the word, we find "pedo-" (child) and "phile," from "philos" (friend). One interpretation of this is simply "a friend of children," a phrase which has no English word associated with it. I am hard pressed to argue that the interpretation is entirely unreasonable; but I do believe it reasonable to exclude the viewpoint based on the prevalence of that usage. I would agree that it would be unreasonable to base the "pedophile" article on that meaning, and possibly would also be unreasonable to even mention it; it is used by a tiny minority in that way (if anyone). I don't believe the same is true of "circumcision" used to describe female circumcision, based not only on things like Google Scholar searches, but also on my experience simply talking to other people around me, and coming into contact with that usage routinely, from multiple sources, and from an early age.
Incidentally, I find it quite notable (Avi's word: curious) that the Latin root of "circumcision" got deleted from the article. (It is now in a restored state, and if I remember correctly, it seems to vacillate.) Rhetorically (or not, as you wish), would you say that its presence may reasonably appear to some to diminish the credibility of the (IMO, narrowed) definition treated in the article?
I posit that many people who wince when the phrase "female circumcision" is uttered or written probably didn't come into contact with that usage of "circumcision" until late adolescence or adulthood, when they first heard of the practice done to females. It's also likely their first reaction to the subject was extremely negative (another reason for wincing, or something seeming "wrong"). They may have learned that circumcision means something done to males, and only males. As I'm fond of saying, non-neutral POV smells no matter where it comes from, including the heart, and gut. (I'm not implying you are part of this group.)
That said, it's nearing the end of a long year, and in this time of retrospect I give myself a grade of "D minus" (Charles M. Schulz, RIP) for my "work" in Wikipedia. I am the first to admit that in order for this system to work at its best, I need to make every effort to perish all thoughts that other editors are stubborn or unreasonable merely because they remain unconvinced, or incorrigibly biased and therefore irrelevant merely because they appear to be arguing from a point of view. I have fallen short of these ideals, often, while improperly accusing others of falling short of them; others who, in a fair assessment, may not have fallen short of those ideals nearly as often. You have singlehandedly restored much of my faith in the amazing things that can be accomplished when editors discuss respectfully, boldly, cordially, precisely, openly, honestly, and leaving any agenda behind. Thank you for that. If I believed in barnstars, you'd get a big one from me.
I feel almost like it would be impolite not to address many of the interesting points you have raised. I'm guessing you may feel the same, but as you seem to suggest, we shouldn't worry. I will attempt to take a course of pondering, rereading, and replying at whatever pace I am comfortable with at the time (including snails, like, really slow snails), and invite you to do the same. :) Blackworm ( talk) 18:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps need to revert this edit which was apparently the one that messed up the ref list (july 20; Female genital cutting) -- Coppertwig ( talk) 01:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Source re breastfeeding, including plugged ducts: [1] Another bf ref: [2]
I just mean that editing one page too much, you might not be able to catch something on another page. That's all. Hiddenhearts Sign Here! My Talk 19:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Instinct also helps me go after speediable articles. I very often come across new articles which may have useful content, but that is covered within existing articles and redirecting just doesn't seem to be an option. I have found that only serious editors will confront me, and I heartily welcome that. I like to be told that I'm wrong! I also like the interaction. If you look at my contributions (specifically, the user talk pages wherein I posted a speedy notice similar), check out how many editors bothered to continue editing, or even take the time to respond to me. The reality I seem to encounter is, that many articles simply don't belong, and editors don't get the concenpt of an encyclopedia, or want to take the time. I guess this makes me more of a deletionist than an inclusionist, but don't try to fit me in a slot just yet! - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 15:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Note to self: proposed merge of Benignus of Armagh and Saint Benan on Dec. 25. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 01:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Note to self: Interesting comment re NOR. [3] Original research being allowed in some form). Driving down a highway. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 23:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your message and support. Don't forget to vote next time :) -- Magioladitis ( talk) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Coppertwig, here is a little note to say thank you for your kind support on my request for adminship which succeeded with a final result of (72/19/6).
Now that I am a sysop, do not hesitate to contact me with any queries you have. I would be glad to help you along with the other group of kind and helpful administrators.
Thank you again and I look forward to editing alongside you in the future. — E talk 12:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
And I don't mind it when you fix my links, I appreciate it. Thank you for your efforts to keep Blackworm and I focused on content through positive reinforcement. This has been a useful lesson. Although I disagree with you on your disputation of the facticity of reproductive rights as human rights, I think you'll find that I'm more than reasonable when it comes to the issue of abortion as a human right. Perhaps we could work together in developing a neutral section dealing with this sub-topic? This would justify mentioning abortion in the lead (as is, we have a lot of orphaned content in there) and would help determine what language would be appropriate.
Does this mean we're making forward movement on the lead? Because if so, I'm overjoyed. I would enjoy the opportunity to collaborate in a way that added constructive content to the article. Phyesalis ( talk) 16:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a mistake. Take a look at what links to Circumcision in the Bible, it's almost always discussion of the Bible, hence the obvious and well defined title. If you wish to create a new article called Circumcision in cultures and religions, you should do so, and that new article could reference Circumcision in the Bible. Circumcision in the Bible as an article is already big enough, no need to broaden its scope. Further discussion should probably be on the talk page. 64.149.83.66 ( talk) 05:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your note: the first time I saw it I forgot to make the move, and the next time I remembered it. Jayjg (talk) 04:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey Coppertwig! It's me, Pyth. How're you doing? Pythian Habenero ( talk) 16:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for being impressed, and I'm impressed, though not surprised, that you're impressed, because I think many people would fail to see some of the grasping-at-straws attempts at oxymora I included. Also: You're very welcome, and not a dork IMO, however many posts you forget to sign.
I see there's a discussion about deleting List of sites running the LiveJournal engine. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 18:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Coppertwig, I sincerely apologize if my comment (last in archive 2) about your relationship to Circumcision and RR implied, or caused to you to infer, that I was casting aspersions on your general credibility. From all that I can tell, you are a valuable member of the project. I have no knowledge of your work on Circumcision but your efforts to keep the talk page calm and to provide an alternate source and wording on the "analogous" issue at RR have certainly been contributions to be proud of. Also, the time and goodwill that you have put into our user talk page discussions, particularly your lovely comments on my talk page, deserve more credit. Thank you.
I declined your offer to coach me through the conflict with Blackworm for the fact that I would be uncomfortable being coached by someone with your opposing perspectives (inferred from our interactions), who also happened to have the history that you and Blackworm have, and happened to be currently editing the pages in question, purely for the possibility of a general conflict of interest, neither an implied, nor an established one. Again, I'm sorry if my comment caused you offense. Perhaps you would reconsider my offer to help me build a neutral section on other perspectives on Reproductive rights? Not that you've actually turned me down, but I don't remember your response and there's been little in the way of reliable development. I would love to be able to move this forward. Phyesalis ( talk) 17:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)There seems to be some misunderstanding. I haven't agreed to pass anything along to Blackworm. What I meant was that I'm offering to work with you, suggesting what words to use, and then you can send the resulting message to Blackworm yourself (or possibly get someone else to deliver it).
I don't remember being asked whether I recognize CEDAW, Beijing or Cairo to be extensions of the UN. The CEDAW page says "The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) is an international convention adopted in 1979 by the United Nations General Assembly." so that's very clear: CEDAW is part of the UN. I agree with you on that. Beijing and Cairo are cities, but I think you mean either the conferences, or declarations made at the conferences, mentioned here: (Advancing Reproductive Rights Beyond Cairo and Beijing): "...has gained momentum through recent United Nations (UN) conferences, particularly the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development, held in Cairo, and the 1995 Fourth World Conference no Women, held in Beijing." This quote calls them UN conferences, so I assume they're extensions of the UN. So we agree on that, too.
You say "the fact that various RR have been ratified by the UN". Repeating this again without providing any arguments or pointing to any specific passages in reliable sources does nothing to convince me of this. If you have convincing arguments (or any arguments) in favour of this statement, please tell me what they are. It seems to me that it may be possible to easily convince me of this by showing me the right quote. Note that I'm under the impression that the word "ratified" has a specific technical meaning in international affairs; but I don't think I've seen verification of a softer version of the statement either.
I'm not aware of any issues between you and me except some differences of opinion, plus vague allegations at WP:AN which you said you would overlook. Differences of opinion are normal and should not impede working together on finding a version of the article that satisfies both of us, or if that is not possible, then a compromise. We need to work at eliminating misunderstandings, such as the misunderstanding that you apparently thought I was refusing to recognize certain conferences as extensions of the UN. (Possibly I did at some time in the past -- I don't remember -- but you could have simply showed me those quotes I just looked up if you wanted to persuade me.)
If there's some reason you don't want to retype quotes as I've done, you can refer to specific passages like this: "The last sentence of the first paragraph on page 1 of Advancing Reproductive Rights ..." (with a link to the page, or mentioning that it's the first footnote at RR, or etc.)
Vague allegations cannot be responded to properly, and anyway you said you were going to overlook them. In future, please either provide specific details of any allegations, or don't mention them at all. I would consider it an act of good faith if you would either strike out the words "in a few instances" and "tendentious edits/arguments" in this post or else provide on my talk page details of when you allege that I didn't work towards solutions or did do "tendentious edits/arguments"; however, I don't require or necessarily expect that you will do one of these things this time around. In future, though, I do expect you to raise issues with me directly on my talk page before mentioning them at WP:AN, and I do also expect you to either provide details of allegations, or else not mention them at all. I consider that just common courtesy.
Disagreeing with me about some article content issues doesn't seem like a good reason to stop editing an article, and it certainly doesn't seem like a good reason for me to stop editing. However, I might do so as part of the mediation process. What about posting to the article talk pages? What about discussing the articles in userspace, or editing drafts of the articles in userspace?
You say "you are a partial reason why I am not editing those two pages during this dispute." This provides almost no information. It's another vague allegation. Please either provide details (i.e. what specifically about my behaviour is bothering you?) or else retract your allegation.
You say "you keep editing parts of articles that are disputed in a manner which advances your POV, despite the fact that I have stepped away in a GF attempt to reduce the tension and resolve the dispute." Actually, in the time after you asked me (today or yesterday) to step away from the articles, I have not edited the two articles in question at all. Before that, I understood that you were taking a break, but didn't see any need for anyone else to also take a break at the same time. Anyone can choose to take a break from editing an article for any of a variety of reasons. Normally, others continue editing. You're making it sound as if I did something wrong, when you hadn't even asked me to stop editing, and I would have been justified, I think, in refusing if you had asked. (One option you have in such situations is to request page protection.) Although I knew you were taking a break, I wasn't clear on exactly what the reasons for your break were: I still don't. Actually, I'm not even clear when you were or were not taking a break. It seems to me that we were having ongoing discussion between you and me at Talk:Reproductive rights recently, so that doesn't look like a break. I often wait 24 hours for a response before editing. Sometimes longer. Sometimes I edit without waiting; sometimes you also edit without waiting for a response. Please remember that if I edit in a way that displeases you, you can always invoke my "self-revert" userbox.
I'm sorry that after you inserted the word "various" in an attempt at compromise in response to my request, I didn't reply for a longish time. I had less online time than I expected for a few days, and my reply took a lot more thought than I expected; when I finally did reply it was rather long. Thank you for your patience in that situation. -- Coppertwig ( talk) 23:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the additional resources. I am familiar with them, but given the previous objections, I wasn't sure you'd have accepted them. I added the Beijing link (if I remember correctly) around the time I added the men's content. At the time, there wasn't any mention of Cairo or Beijing in the lead. Does this mean that you now agree that "Various reproductive rights have been established as human rights?" Because that would be great.
Taking a page from you on the ASB. Hope you don't mind. What bothered me about the edit (diff in previous post) was the apparent lack of good faith over some fairly basic facts. You did not read either of the articles in their entirety, and yet felt the need to surmise that the two fairly lengthy articles did not contain the information. To make that kind of edit summary, in conjunction with the cite tag seemed somewhat antagonistic considering that you were attempting to de-escalate a dispute that involved contentious editing of the same kind of behavior (although on a much larger scale). Perhaps a better way to help de-escalate would have been to discuss it on the talk, since all three of us were active in discussion. Seeing as how Blackworm's slapping cite tags on everything he disagreed with, despite the fact that it had citations was part of the issue to begin with, your continuation of the practice seemed intentionally antagonistic. Now from my perspective, it seems you have been content to allow Blackworm to act as a sort of stalking horse, allowing you to interject as the voice of reason, lending an air of legitimacy to an editor's tendentious methods while advancing the same POV.
I wrote that I was asking you to stop editing "RR and FGC". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Yes, I am asking you to stop editing Reproductive rights and Female genital cutting (main and talk) for the duration of the mediation. If you want to work on other mock-ups, I have no issue (why would I ask you to do that?). Do you find this request unreasonable? If so, would you mind explaining why?
Also, the issue of the material regarding men's health that you and BW have removed because you deem it sexist, would you mind pointing out the WP policy the covers sexist material? I am unaware of this policy, that cited material can be removed for perceived sexism. Also, could you explain how the material is sexist. I don't understand this at all. The source clearly states that men's sexual activity outside a committed relationship has general health repercussions due to the fact that the differences in reproductive systems make it much more likely that a man will transmit an STD to a woman than the other way around. I don't understand your opposition to this material. If I add that info in, it does not pass a commutation test - replacing men with women does not yield the same truth statement, it yields a false one.
In closing, I like your suggestion to work together on coming up with a mediation request. I think it will be helpful to have you as an involved party. Thank you. I'm going to post over at AN about our conversation and its outcome. Phyesalis ( talk) 19:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for defending the truth about my actions here ([ diff]). I'll note, though, that I never explicitly asked Phyesalis to tell me how many editors Phyesalis contacted; I did ask Phyesalis to clarify Phyesalis' response to my suggestion to read WP:CANVAS, which seemingly implied Phyesalis only contacted two editors. Maybe this is nit-picking, but I would see a direct asking of the question of how many editors were contacted as stronger evidence of an accusation of violating CANVAS -- so I carefully avoided that. Thanks again. Blackworm ( talk) 23:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Note: In case it's not clear, I am not calling for any amendments to your comments. Blackworm ( talk) 23:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll undelete them. Jayjg (talk) 03:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I've replied there. Regards, Rudget . 15:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I've invited you to WP:TEA. See January 2008. Thank you for your graceful acceptance of mediation. I'm sure your measured presence will have a calming effect on both of us. You have my esteem and appreciation. I'm sure your contributions over at the mediation request draft will be productive. Phyesalis ( talk) 04:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
You have e-mail, CT. -- Avi ( talk) 18:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I believe the protocol is to move your vote and discussion below to the Neutral section. -- Avi ( talk) 00:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for proposing to merge This Page instead of removing it. Also, i'm sure that this part ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Code_of_Claw&oldid=183102775) was not copyright, becuase this was not removed yet. I have put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Re:re: I have read your message. I have listened to your comments, I do not want to start and edit war; i just want to state that you put something twice. Nothing offensive meant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks. ∂☺1♂K∫ ₪&+(_)+5 ( talk) 03:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Coppertwig, that was very thoughtful of you. Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Answers at Talk:Safavid art, and at Discuter:Art safavide. Friendly yours. Pentocelo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.15.92.33 ( talk) 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
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Dear PalestineRemembered, re this discussion, where someone asked you to avoid using the word "immigrants" in this context and you indicated difficulty in finding acceptable words to use and you said "I will often refer to supporters of Israel as "the immigrants" ". Here I would like to try to help everyone compromise and get along with each other, so I'd like to try to help find a word or phrase people can agree on, although perhaps it's not likely I can come up with anything that hasn't already been suggested and rejected for one reason or another. I understand your frustration -- you've got to be able to use a word to be able to express what you want to say. Now, maybe I ought to know this already, but I'd appreciate it if you'd gently explain to me why you wouldn't use the term "Israelis" in that context. (As a reminder, there are now also the phrases suggested by Sm8900 (Steve): ("i would ask whether you could perhaps use a term such as "Israel supporters," "Israelis and their allies", or simply, "Members of Israeli society." it might even be fine to say "Israelis of a Zionist viewpoint," as using Zionist as an adjective is not really that bad.") -- Coppertwig ( talk) 14:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
It's just an idea I've been thinking about. Although I used the controversial template as an example, we should think about using the WikiProject tags instead. It would be easy to implement, but difficult to get admins and mediators to come on board because it would mean that they would actually have to do the work rather than camping on the noticeboard. But, I'm sure there are people who would watch the categories and help out, which is why I think it has a chance. — Viriditas | Talk 19:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into that. I've put up a much better page now. Hopefully it will be good enough to stick.
Thanks again Hortaculture ( talk) 23:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but do you make any sense but a psedo-scientific survey that just stated incorrectly some mathematical results to conclude that he, the creator, discovered a new string theory? -- Magioladitis ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
“ | Patent nonsense' and gibberish, an unsalvageably incoherent page with no meaningful content. This does not include: poor writing, partisan screeds, obscene remarks, vandalism, fictional material, material not in English, badly translated material, implausible theories, or hoaxes of any sort; some of these, however, may be deleted as vandalism in blatant cases. | ” |
Hi Coppertwig. I noticed you are the creator of the above article. Just to let you know I have nominated it for deletion. You can participate in the deletion discussion here. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
An editor has nominated Udo's Choice Food Pyramids, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also " What Wikipedia is not").
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FYI, I've sent you an email. JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)