Please be civil and do not make false accusations. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I generally post it when someone makes false accusations. I have the diffs, yours and James'. I have no obligation to share them with you or anyone until a time of my choosing, or requested by an admin. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Likewise, you say I have been uncivil yet you haven't shown the diffs, nor are you obligated to do so unless you wish to make an official complaint. And even if you show them to me, that doesn't mean that I will agree that they represent uncivil behavior. You have no obligation to provide the diffs unless I make a complaint about you or you make a complaint about me and we are requested to provide supporting evidence. I never asked you to address your false accusations, just to stop making them. What it does for my position? I don't have a position except to request you to stop making false accusations. You have a choice to stop making them, or to continue. One thing's for sure: there is no end to the extent to which you can interpret something differently than I do. I thank someone for a question, you interpet it as uncivil. I ask someone to back up a comment they make, you interpet it as uncivil. I make a statement that I agree with you, you interpret it as uncivil. I express an opinion about the quality of an article, you interpret it as uncivil. I try to welcome newcomers to an article, you assume bad faith (and I suppose you interpret it as uncivil). You can interpret my comments any way you want, just stop making accusations toward me that have no basis in reality. And I don't intend to argue back and forth endlessly with you here. It's pointless because you will either interpret anything I say as uncivil or not credible. So I'll continue collecting my diffs, and you will do what you think you should do. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
"Now that you have": Except I didn't. Once again, I say one thing, you interpret it differently. You can post all the diffs here you want. It's your talk page. That doesn't mean I'll agree with any of them. But if that's the way you want to spend your time, post away. Just don't start making any demands that I respond to baseless accusations on this talk page. In fact, the more I respond to your false accusations, the more likely you will interpret it as uncivil. Once again, Chillum, just because you post it on a Wikipedia talk page doesn't mean it's true. And likewise to you: there is no need for an official complaint about your false accusations unless you continue making them. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
And to be frank, you have once again assumed bad faith with no basis. I don't mind occasionally repeating myself, just not over and over and over. So here's the first repeat: I never asked for diffs. I have no obligation to provide you or anyone any diffs I have unless I make any official complaint. If that's not clear I'll try one more time, but that's likely the last time I'll try to explain those concepts. Oh ... and one more repeat: I don't intend to go back and forth endlessly here with you here unless you continue to make false accusations, because you either interpret it as uncivil or not credible. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
See? Here we go. You assume you know why I do something, which apparently to you means you know why I do what I do. Twice in the edit immediately above you assume you know what I'm thinking. You assume you know why I post a request for you to stop making false accusations. You assume I think Wikipedia is a joke. I have never said that Wikipedia is a joke. I think Rorschach test is a disaster ... a joke ... pick your term. Now I suppose I'll be told I'm being uncivil because I've expressed an opinion about an article. Chillum, I am seriously not going to argue endlessly here with you. It accomplishes nothing except to push you into making additional false accusations about me. End of discussion. Believe it or not, I have learned a few things in my 30 years as a psychologist, and it doesn't take much here for me to see that this is going absolutely nowhere except out of control. And before you make another accusation about me simply because I don't care to waste my time on your talk page, do you very best to remember that it was you who sent me a message that started all of this. To whatever extent you have good intentions here, I thank you but must state that some reasonable discussions are simply impossible. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
First off: "on some issues (the Rorschach being one), that Wikipedia is a joke": ON SOME ISSUES. There's a difference in meaning. Yet another false accusation.
Secondly, assume any damn thing you want. You have no idea what I'm thinking, and remember Chillum, you started this discussion.
And finally, I've been trying to end this pointless discussion for a long time, but you kept pushing it.
Ward3001 (
talk)
04:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
reply
Folks, you know that I am quite capable of collecting diffs and storing them in a computer without adding them to my user space on Wikipedia. Maybe you believe I'm too stupid to know that anything on Wikipedia can be read by anyone. Maybe you believe that I'm the only editor who has noticed incivility and/or false accusations by one or both of you. But believe what you wish. Ward3001 ( talk) 20:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Glad to hear that, especially that you're aware other editors besides me have noticed your false accusations. Thanks for the reply. Ward3001 ( talk) 21:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm not referring to Faustian, and yes there's evidence. But before we get into another pointless discussion here, let's just leave it at: you say that there is no evidence and I say there is evidence. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 21:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Like I said, I don't care for another pointless discussion. Your "challenging" me to provide evidence means neither that "there is not" nor that I and others don't have it, just like your "challenging" me to provide diffs meant neither that I didn't have them nor that I was obligated to provide them to you. End of discussion. Thanks and have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 22:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
First, read the entirety of the talk page and the archives in detail. Secondly, read my response to another editor who requested similar information [2]. Please read them in that order. If you do both of those in the order stated, you should have adequate information. If you don't read the entirety of the talk page and archives first (even if you have already read them), don't ask me to do your reading for you. I'm happy to answer reasonable requests, but not spoon-feeding. Enjoy your reading. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Chillum, to use a phrase that you have been fond of, I will not be "baited" into another endless argument with you. That has happened one too many times. The information is on the talk page and archives, and I even provided you to a link to a quick summary I gave to Bob K31416. And after I gave the info to Bob K31416, he never asked me to read the archives for him. If you have read everything, and have been in this discussion since the beginning, you have the information plus a neat (albeit brief) summary. End of discussion. End of "baiting". You can write on and on and on in this section if you want; it's your talk page. But not me. And by the way, Chillum, I'm making another request that you stop making false accusations about me, as you did in this edit summary. Another diff for my collection. Have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
As I've told you several times, just because you write something on a Wikipedia page doesn't mean it's true. It's there Chillum. Read the talk page and the archives. One more tip. Find any comments by Luna Santin, and read any responses I made to him. That's not all the information, but all the information is in the archives. I will not do your research for you. End of discussion. And I don't mean to treat you like a child, but you don't seem to get it when I say it the first time or two, so again, end of discussion and end of baiting. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I've made at least two polite requests for you to stop making false accusations, yet you persist, as you did here. This is the third (or fourth) request. Please stop it. So far I haven't worded any of these requests as warnings. And I don't want to do that. But the next time, it will be a warning. Thank you for your understanding. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
That's right, it doesn't need to be adversarial, but you are making it that way. You could have easily expressed your opinion to Bob K31416 that you don't see the information without adding that I am unwilling to provide the information. I provided information to him (which he apparently felt was sufficient as he has not requested anything more or accused me of not answering his question), and I provided it to you. Just because you don't wish to take the time to go through the archives in no way means that I did not direct you to the information. So if you want this to not be adversarial, then don't make any more false accusations about me. It's as simple as that. I'm not trying to turn this into a battle between you and me, but at the same time I will not sit back quietly as you sling out unfounded crap about me. If I was really malicious I could not request you to stop or warn you, simply collect the diffs, and make a complaint. But I am trying to be reasonable. Now, this can be the end of it if you will stop the false accusations. It's that simple. And again, I have better things to do that have another endless argument with you. So I'll wish you a good day. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Telling someone, or announcing in an edit summary, a lie about me is adversarial. End of discussion. End of discussion. End of baiting. End of baiting. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm not really innocent of this myself, but you should consider using the PREVIEW button! You have, in short order, taken top spot on Talk:Rorschach test ( before / after). At the very least, use the "minor" edit button when adding or copyediting. =) – xeno talk 13:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Yea, I have the same problem. But not to the same degree as you ;p – xeno talk 13:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
As a preface, let me point out that the links I gave to Luna Santin on the Rorschach talk page here go to the same section that I linked for you here. Luna Santin was gracious enough to acknowledge that I gave him the information, the very same information (plus an additional summary) I gave you. And since you didn't bother to read the information closely enough to see that (or you intentionally lied, only you know that for sure), you have made another false accusation about me here. Consider this your first warning. And mulitple other editors have commented about your multiple mispresentations throughout the Rorschach debate. Chillum, I have told you repeatedly I'm not going to argue with you when you refuse the see the bare facts right in front of you. And that applies to this warning. I will not respond to any denials you make. I will not split hairs with you. So your next response here either needs to be nothing or an acknowledgment of your errors (I wouldn't even hope for an apology). It's your talk page, of course, so you can write on and on and on if you wish. But I will not respond to denials, or other misstatements by you here, or semantic quibbling about the meanings of words in this message. If you respond with nothing and do not make another false accusation about me, everything will be fine and we can put this behind us. If you respond with an acknowledgment of your errors, that's fine too; I can be forgiving quite easily and have no intentions of throwing this in your face in the future. If you want to argue, however, you're wasting your time. And if you make another false accusation about me, I may or may not give you another warning before proceeding with a discussion with an admin (I may begin with Luna Santin). Ward3001 ( talk) 15:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
My warning stands. Your denials are meaningless. Have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 15:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
It's simple. You stop denying. You stop making false statements about me. That ends its. And as I have said many times before, I don't intend to argue endlessly with you, here or on my talk page. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm serious (but friendly) in this comment. It could really do wonders for the disagreements on Rorschach if two editors who had disagreed so much could agree on something. I have changed my vote to the drop-down option as a compromise. I certainly understand if that's out of the question for you, and if you ignore or delete this message I will take no offense, and I will never bring this up again anywhere if that's the case. Just think about it. I don't plan to change my vote back in either case. Thanks for your consideration. Ward3001 ( talk) 17:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Thanks for considering what I had to say. I accept that anything you do regarding this particular point is done with careful consideration and in good faith. All the best. Ward3001 ( talk) 18:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
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DMacks ( talk) 18:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Chillum smiles back. 18:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Please be civil and do not make false accusations. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I generally post it when someone makes false accusations. I have the diffs, yours and James'. I have no obligation to share them with you or anyone until a time of my choosing, or requested by an admin. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Likewise, you say I have been uncivil yet you haven't shown the diffs, nor are you obligated to do so unless you wish to make an official complaint. And even if you show them to me, that doesn't mean that I will agree that they represent uncivil behavior. You have no obligation to provide the diffs unless I make a complaint about you or you make a complaint about me and we are requested to provide supporting evidence. I never asked you to address your false accusations, just to stop making them. What it does for my position? I don't have a position except to request you to stop making false accusations. You have a choice to stop making them, or to continue. One thing's for sure: there is no end to the extent to which you can interpret something differently than I do. I thank someone for a question, you interpet it as uncivil. I ask someone to back up a comment they make, you interpet it as uncivil. I make a statement that I agree with you, you interpret it as uncivil. I express an opinion about the quality of an article, you interpret it as uncivil. I try to welcome newcomers to an article, you assume bad faith (and I suppose you interpret it as uncivil). You can interpret my comments any way you want, just stop making accusations toward me that have no basis in reality. And I don't intend to argue back and forth endlessly with you here. It's pointless because you will either interpret anything I say as uncivil or not credible. So I'll continue collecting my diffs, and you will do what you think you should do. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
"Now that you have": Except I didn't. Once again, I say one thing, you interpret it differently. You can post all the diffs here you want. It's your talk page. That doesn't mean I'll agree with any of them. But if that's the way you want to spend your time, post away. Just don't start making any demands that I respond to baseless accusations on this talk page. In fact, the more I respond to your false accusations, the more likely you will interpret it as uncivil. Once again, Chillum, just because you post it on a Wikipedia talk page doesn't mean it's true. And likewise to you: there is no need for an official complaint about your false accusations unless you continue making them. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
And to be frank, you have once again assumed bad faith with no basis. I don't mind occasionally repeating myself, just not over and over and over. So here's the first repeat: I never asked for diffs. I have no obligation to provide you or anyone any diffs I have unless I make any official complaint. If that's not clear I'll try one more time, but that's likely the last time I'll try to explain those concepts. Oh ... and one more repeat: I don't intend to go back and forth endlessly here with you here unless you continue to make false accusations, because you either interpret it as uncivil or not credible. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
See? Here we go. You assume you know why I do something, which apparently to you means you know why I do what I do. Twice in the edit immediately above you assume you know what I'm thinking. You assume you know why I post a request for you to stop making false accusations. You assume I think Wikipedia is a joke. I have never said that Wikipedia is a joke. I think Rorschach test is a disaster ... a joke ... pick your term. Now I suppose I'll be told I'm being uncivil because I've expressed an opinion about an article. Chillum, I am seriously not going to argue endlessly here with you. It accomplishes nothing except to push you into making additional false accusations about me. End of discussion. Believe it or not, I have learned a few things in my 30 years as a psychologist, and it doesn't take much here for me to see that this is going absolutely nowhere except out of control. And before you make another accusation about me simply because I don't care to waste my time on your talk page, do you very best to remember that it was you who sent me a message that started all of this. To whatever extent you have good intentions here, I thank you but must state that some reasonable discussions are simply impossible. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 04:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
First off: "on some issues (the Rorschach being one), that Wikipedia is a joke": ON SOME ISSUES. There's a difference in meaning. Yet another false accusation.
Secondly, assume any damn thing you want. You have no idea what I'm thinking, and remember Chillum, you started this discussion.
And finally, I've been trying to end this pointless discussion for a long time, but you kept pushing it.
Ward3001 (
talk)
04:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
reply
Folks, you know that I am quite capable of collecting diffs and storing them in a computer without adding them to my user space on Wikipedia. Maybe you believe I'm too stupid to know that anything on Wikipedia can be read by anyone. Maybe you believe that I'm the only editor who has noticed incivility and/or false accusations by one or both of you. But believe what you wish. Ward3001 ( talk) 20:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Glad to hear that, especially that you're aware other editors besides me have noticed your false accusations. Thanks for the reply. Ward3001 ( talk) 21:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm not referring to Faustian, and yes there's evidence. But before we get into another pointless discussion here, let's just leave it at: you say that there is no evidence and I say there is evidence. Thanks. Ward3001 ( talk) 21:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Like I said, I don't care for another pointless discussion. Your "challenging" me to provide evidence means neither that "there is not" nor that I and others don't have it, just like your "challenging" me to provide diffs meant neither that I didn't have them nor that I was obligated to provide them to you. End of discussion. Thanks and have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 22:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC) reply
First, read the entirety of the talk page and the archives in detail. Secondly, read my response to another editor who requested similar information [2]. Please read them in that order. If you do both of those in the order stated, you should have adequate information. If you don't read the entirety of the talk page and archives first (even if you have already read them), don't ask me to do your reading for you. I'm happy to answer reasonable requests, but not spoon-feeding. Enjoy your reading. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Chillum, to use a phrase that you have been fond of, I will not be "baited" into another endless argument with you. That has happened one too many times. The information is on the talk page and archives, and I even provided you to a link to a quick summary I gave to Bob K31416. And after I gave the info to Bob K31416, he never asked me to read the archives for him. If you have read everything, and have been in this discussion since the beginning, you have the information plus a neat (albeit brief) summary. End of discussion. End of "baiting". You can write on and on and on in this section if you want; it's your talk page. But not me. And by the way, Chillum, I'm making another request that you stop making false accusations about me, as you did in this edit summary. Another diff for my collection. Have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
As I've told you several times, just because you write something on a Wikipedia page doesn't mean it's true. It's there Chillum. Read the talk page and the archives. One more tip. Find any comments by Luna Santin, and read any responses I made to him. That's not all the information, but all the information is in the archives. I will not do your research for you. End of discussion. And I don't mean to treat you like a child, but you don't seem to get it when I say it the first time or two, so again, end of discussion and end of baiting. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I've made at least two polite requests for you to stop making false accusations, yet you persist, as you did here. This is the third (or fourth) request. Please stop it. So far I haven't worded any of these requests as warnings. And I don't want to do that. But the next time, it will be a warning. Thank you for your understanding. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
That's right, it doesn't need to be adversarial, but you are making it that way. You could have easily expressed your opinion to Bob K31416 that you don't see the information without adding that I am unwilling to provide the information. I provided information to him (which he apparently felt was sufficient as he has not requested anything more or accused me of not answering his question), and I provided it to you. Just because you don't wish to take the time to go through the archives in no way means that I did not direct you to the information. So if you want this to not be adversarial, then don't make any more false accusations about me. It's as simple as that. I'm not trying to turn this into a battle between you and me, but at the same time I will not sit back quietly as you sling out unfounded crap about me. If I was really malicious I could not request you to stop or warn you, simply collect the diffs, and make a complaint. But I am trying to be reasonable. Now, this can be the end of it if you will stop the false accusations. It's that simple. And again, I have better things to do that have another endless argument with you. So I'll wish you a good day. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 02:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Telling someone, or announcing in an edit summary, a lie about me is adversarial. End of discussion. End of discussion. End of baiting. End of baiting. Thank you. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm not really innocent of this myself, but you should consider using the PREVIEW button! You have, in short order, taken top spot on Talk:Rorschach test ( before / after). At the very least, use the "minor" edit button when adding or copyediting. =) – xeno talk 13:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Yea, I have the same problem. But not to the same degree as you ;p – xeno talk 13:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
As a preface, let me point out that the links I gave to Luna Santin on the Rorschach talk page here go to the same section that I linked for you here. Luna Santin was gracious enough to acknowledge that I gave him the information, the very same information (plus an additional summary) I gave you. And since you didn't bother to read the information closely enough to see that (or you intentionally lied, only you know that for sure), you have made another false accusation about me here. Consider this your first warning. And mulitple other editors have commented about your multiple mispresentations throughout the Rorschach debate. Chillum, I have told you repeatedly I'm not going to argue with you when you refuse the see the bare facts right in front of you. And that applies to this warning. I will not respond to any denials you make. I will not split hairs with you. So your next response here either needs to be nothing or an acknowledgment of your errors (I wouldn't even hope for an apology). It's your talk page, of course, so you can write on and on and on if you wish. But I will not respond to denials, or other misstatements by you here, or semantic quibbling about the meanings of words in this message. If you respond with nothing and do not make another false accusation about me, everything will be fine and we can put this behind us. If you respond with an acknowledgment of your errors, that's fine too; I can be forgiving quite easily and have no intentions of throwing this in your face in the future. If you want to argue, however, you're wasting your time. And if you make another false accusation about me, I may or may not give you another warning before proceeding with a discussion with an admin (I may begin with Luna Santin). Ward3001 ( talk) 15:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
My warning stands. Your denials are meaningless. Have a good day. Ward3001 ( talk) 15:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC) reply
It's simple. You stop denying. You stop making false statements about me. That ends its. And as I have said many times before, I don't intend to argue endlessly with you, here or on my talk page. Ward3001 ( talk) 03:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm serious (but friendly) in this comment. It could really do wonders for the disagreements on Rorschach if two editors who had disagreed so much could agree on something. I have changed my vote to the drop-down option as a compromise. I certainly understand if that's out of the question for you, and if you ignore or delete this message I will take no offense, and I will never bring this up again anywhere if that's the case. Just think about it. I don't plan to change my vote back in either case. Thanks for your consideration. Ward3001 ( talk) 17:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Thanks for considering what I had to say. I accept that anything you do regarding this particular point is done with careful consideration and in good faith. All the best. Ward3001 ( talk) 18:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
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DMacks ( talk) 18:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
Chillum smiles back. 18:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply