This is my attempt at transcribing the entire conversation between Barack Obama and Joe Wurzelbacher from the videotaped interview online at ABC News. Basically, this transcript is a corrected and expanded version of the transcript at Joe Tapper's blog on ABC News, where they paraphrase many of Wurzelbacher's remarks and leave out some of Obama's, most strikingly at the end when Obama talks about eliminating capital gains taxes on small business.
BO: Yes, sir, what's your name?
JW: Name's Joe Wurzelbacher.
BO: Good to see you, Joe?
JW: I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250, 270, 280 thousand dollars a year. Your new tax plan's going to tax me more, isn't it?"
BO: First off, if you're a small business you would get a 50% tax credit so you'd get cut in taxes for your healthcare costs. So you would actually get a tax cut for that part. If your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we’re doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we’re doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they’re gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate.
JW: Well, the reason I ask you about the American dream, I mean I've worked hard. I'm a plumber. I work 10-12 hours a day and I'm buying this company and I'm going to continue to work that way. If I buy another truck and add something else to it, and build the company, I'm getting taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream."
BO: Well, here's a way of thinking about it. How long have you been a plumber, how long have you been working?
JW: Fifteen years.
BO: Over the last 15 years, when you weren’t making 250, you would have been given a tax cut from me, so you’d actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you’ve become more successful through hard work – you don’t want to be taxed as much.”
JW: Exactly.
BO: But another way of looking at it is 95% of folks who are making less than 250, they may be working hard too. But they’re being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I’m doing is -- Put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever, 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you’d be paying lower taxes, which means you would have saved and gotten to the point where you are faster. Now look, nobody likes high taxes.
JW: No.
BO: Of course not. But what’s happened is that we end up – we’ve cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250. We haven’t given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence, the average wage and income for just ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I want to do is -- I’ve got a tax cut. The only thing that changes, is I’m gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well -- even though they’ve been working hard and I understand that, I appreciate that -- I just want to make sure they’re paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect your disagreement. I just want you to be clear – it’s not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at success too.”
JW: Seems like you would be open to a flat tax.
BO: You know, I would be open to it except here’s the problem with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we’ve got, you’d probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean that’s the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25, but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you’d have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky, I don’t mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress who I just met over there who -- things are slow and she can barely make the rent.
My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.
But listen, I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don’t get your vote, I’m still gonna be working hard on your behalf, because I want to make sure -- small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it." (Applause and cheers from audience)
For small business people, I'm going to eliminate the capital gains tax. What it means is, if your business succeeds, if you take it from at $250,000 to a $500,000 business, that capital gains that you get, we're not going to tax you on that, because I want you growing. So you might end up, I can't guarantee it, because I'd have to take a look at your particular business, you might end up paying less taxes than you would under my opponent. I can't guarantee that, because I'd have to take a look at your business. Thanks for your question, I appreciate it. Guys I gotta get out of here and go prepare for the debate, but that was pretty good practice right there. (More applause and cries of "Good luck" from the audience as he walks away.)
This is my attempt at transcribing the entire conversation between Barack Obama and Joe Wurzelbacher from the videotaped interview online at ABC News. Basically, this transcript is a corrected and expanded version of the transcript at Joe Tapper's blog on ABC News, where they paraphrase many of Wurzelbacher's remarks and leave out some of Obama's, most strikingly at the end when Obama talks about eliminating capital gains taxes on small business.
BO: Yes, sir, what's your name?
JW: Name's Joe Wurzelbacher.
BO: Good to see you, Joe?
JW: I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250, 270, 280 thousand dollars a year. Your new tax plan's going to tax me more, isn't it?"
BO: First off, if you're a small business you would get a 50% tax credit so you'd get cut in taxes for your healthcare costs. So you would actually get a tax cut for that part. If your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we’re doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we’re doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they’re gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate.
JW: Well, the reason I ask you about the American dream, I mean I've worked hard. I'm a plumber. I work 10-12 hours a day and I'm buying this company and I'm going to continue to work that way. If I buy another truck and add something else to it, and build the company, I'm getting taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream."
BO: Well, here's a way of thinking about it. How long have you been a plumber, how long have you been working?
JW: Fifteen years.
BO: Over the last 15 years, when you weren’t making 250, you would have been given a tax cut from me, so you’d actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you’ve become more successful through hard work – you don’t want to be taxed as much.”
JW: Exactly.
BO: But another way of looking at it is 95% of folks who are making less than 250, they may be working hard too. But they’re being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I’m doing is -- Put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever, 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you’d be paying lower taxes, which means you would have saved and gotten to the point where you are faster. Now look, nobody likes high taxes.
JW: No.
BO: Of course not. But what’s happened is that we end up – we’ve cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250. We haven’t given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence, the average wage and income for just ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I want to do is -- I’ve got a tax cut. The only thing that changes, is I’m gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well -- even though they’ve been working hard and I understand that, I appreciate that -- I just want to make sure they’re paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect your disagreement. I just want you to be clear – it’s not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at success too.”
JW: Seems like you would be open to a flat tax.
BO: You know, I would be open to it except here’s the problem with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we’ve got, you’d probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean that’s the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25, but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you’d have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky, I don’t mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress who I just met over there who -- things are slow and she can barely make the rent.
My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.
But listen, I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don’t get your vote, I’m still gonna be working hard on your behalf, because I want to make sure -- small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it." (Applause and cheers from audience)
For small business people, I'm going to eliminate the capital gains tax. What it means is, if your business succeeds, if you take it from at $250,000 to a $500,000 business, that capital gains that you get, we're not going to tax you on that, because I want you growing. So you might end up, I can't guarantee it, because I'd have to take a look at your particular business, you might end up paying less taxes than you would under my opponent. I can't guarantee that, because I'd have to take a look at your business. Thanks for your question, I appreciate it. Guys I gotta get out of here and go prepare for the debate, but that was pretty good practice right there. (More applause and cries of "Good luck" from the audience as he walks away.)